Iran Drone: Obama Asks For Return Of US Spy Aircraft by AURaptor

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iran Drone: Obama Asks For Return Of US Spy Aircraft

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Saturday, December 17, 2011 02:32
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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 4:55 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I'm still a bit astonished at the presumption by some here that Iran is somehow a backwards stone-age nation in terms of technology.

Iran graduates around 55,000 engineers per year, compared to the U.S.'s 70,000/yr. So while they aren't at our level, they also aren't terribly far behind, either. Given what engineers do, it's not a far stretch to think that they can go through a pilotless drone and figure out what makes it tick, and how. And yes, they'll be getting quite a bit of help from China, probably some from Russia as well, and perhaps India.

One thing I noticed when I was spending a lot of time working on Honda cars: At a certain point, you start figuring out how their engineers think. Working on a mid-engined NSX supercar, things were where you'd expect them to be on a Honda if you'd worked on a CRX, and Accord, or an Integra.

So the Indians and Chinese that we taught to make all the wonderful things we design? Yeah, they kind of know how we like to do certain things, where we'd put stuff, how we'd code this line of software, etc.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 5:34 PM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
1) Viet Nam.

2) Cuba.

We won our war in Cuba. Little over a hundred years ago. Beat the Spanish.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 5:53 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
1) Viet Nam.

2) Cuba.

We won our war in Cuba. Little over a hundred years ago. Beat the Spanish.

Not quite as lucky at the Bay of Pigs, though, were we?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 5:56 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mike,

Iranians are clever, sure, which is why they are catapulting into the first world. Still, it's a long climb. The thing which is remarkable to me is that they are actually doing it for themselves, rather than buying it, which I think shows a strategy of dedication to the process of technological innovation rather than just grabbing for the latest update.

That said, under Ahmadinejad, they've broken ground in several new areas: They're launched intercontinental ballistic missiles, built their first nuclear generator, and launch their first communications satellite into orbit. Those are three impressive feats to achieve on your own, OTOH, they're also three things that Russia did in the 1950s.

Being half a century behind us is an admirable place to be. Half a century ago, we won a world war against two nations technologically superior to our own and became the most powerful nation on Earth. Still, I think the workings of a predator drone might give them pause. Also, it's a very valuable trading piece. Russia would love to get their hands on a predator drone, and so would China. Iran very much wants the support of those two nations, and it wouldn't mind knowing what makes a predator drone tick.

Of course, once they figure it out, our drones might be useless as the remote control planes could get sent off course by hackers, and there's nothing like random bombings from your random bomber to make you stop giving it random bombs.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 7:21 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Of course, once they figure it out, our drones might be useless as the remote control planes could get sent off course by hackers, and there's nothing like random bombings from your random bomber to make you stop giving it random bombs.

Indeed. As Frem so often notes, technology is a blade with two edges.

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:03 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Not quite as lucky at the Bay of Pigs, though, were we?

Really? I forgot we lost tens of thousands of US troops there. Tell me since you know so much, what US military units were involved? marines, army?

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:12 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Not quite as lucky at the Bay of Pigs, though, were we?

Really? I forgot we lost tens of thousands of US troops there. Tell me since you know so much, what US military units were involved? marines, army?

Y'know, if you're going to remain so willfully ignorant of so much of our history, perhaps you should refrain from commenting on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion#Preparation_and_trai
ning_for_invasion

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:30 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Hero,

I think you know that the CIA was involved, using U.S. equipment, supported by the U.S. Navy (who provided escort) and that the entire operation was taking orders from U.S. President Kennedy.

The soldiers involved were U.S. trained by U.S. personnel, and were recruited in the U.S. by a U.S. agency to perform a U.S. planned invasion.

The USS San Marcos actually carried landing ships to within 3 miles of Cuba and offloaded them for use in the invasion.

Airstrikes were performed on the island in anticipation of the attack, and after U2 overflights, additional airstrikes were cancelled by President Kennedy. The president's ability to control airstrikes during the invasion points the finger at the Nation in charge of the attack.

I think you know these things. But perhaps you are planning to ridiculously say it was not a U.S. operation. Perhaps you are planning to say it was not an act of war. Perhaps you are planning to say it was not a failure.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:41 AM

HERO

Bay of Pigs was not a US war. It was a US supported Cuban nationalist counterrevolution.

H.

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:10 AM

KWICKO

Riiiiiiiight.

And Vietnam was not a U.S. war either, since war wasn't officially declared.

And of course, Korea and Iraq II weren't wars, either. Which is probably a good thing for you, since we didn't win any of those, either.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:22 AM

KWICKO

President John F. Kennedy, speaking as Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces, April 21, 1961:

Quote:
"There's an old saying that victory has a hundred fathers and defeat is an orphan... What matters is only one fact, I am the responsible officer of the government."

The President of the U.S. said that we were indeed responsible for the Bay of Pigs invasion. He also considered the loss his greatest failure.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:25 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Hero,

I think you know that the CIA was involved, using U.S. equipment, supported by the U.S. Navy (who provided escort) and that the entire operation was taking orders from U.S. President Kennedy.

The soldiers involved were U.S. trained by U.S. personnel, and were recruited in the U.S. by a U.S. agency to perform a U.S. planned invasion.

Many of them were trained on U.S. soil by the U.S. military, and the invasion was undertaken with U.S. military equipment.

Quote:

The USS San Marcos actually carried landing ships to within 3 miles of Cuba and offloaded them for use in the invasion.

Airstrikes were performed on the island in anticipation of the attack, and after U2 overflights, additional airstrikes were cancelled by President Kennedy. The president's ability to control airstrikes during the invasion points the finger at the Nation in charge of the attack.

As does his taking sole responsibility for it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:31 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE

Wow. Just wow.

I guess when it comes to conservatives, ignorance is both bliss, and policy.

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Wow. Just wow.

I guess when it comes to conservatives, ignorance is both bliss, and policy.

It appears you have that completely backwards. I have to believe you meant "Liberals".

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:29 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE

You're welcome to believe that.

Considering your general grasp on reality, i take that as confirmation of my point.

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/15/crashed-drone-was-looking-at-
iran-nuclear-sites/?hpt=hp_t1

Hello,

Now the US finally admits it was on a spy mission, and that we violated the Afghanis as well as the Iranians.

They apparently prefer to spin that they are incompetent rather than that the Iranians are competent.

That's always a rough choice.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 12:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA

FYI:
It wasn't hacked, although that does seem the weakest point - but rather it was downed by something terribly similar to a project Geekfarm was working on, but I'll hold close to the vest for now.

I always found it passing strange that certain ideas can surface in multiple places at once simultaneously like that - makes me wonder if there really is a collective consciousness.

Anyhows, this is a farce anyways, we have satellites for observation, even if it does mean locking horns with the NRO and turf wars over jurisdiction and credit and all the juvenille petty bullshit which goes on in the alphabet community INSTEAD of doing their job - this fucker is a testbed for weapons deployment, as are the ones they're using domestically, they have no other purpose.

In THIS case however, it was just too goddamned easy, and I think someone in this chain of events engineered such a "failure" on purpose in order to bring about this pass of events for the express purpose of justifying further hostilities, covert or overt - not even out of misguided nationalism or even partisanship, but simply because of the notion that this would then bring their collective end of the alphabet soup bowl greater prestige and larger budgets, and be damned to all those who gotta die for it, and screw the official purpose of their affiliation.

Our so-called-protectors hard at work, as usual.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, December 16, 2011 12:26 PM

KWICKO

Iran says they "tricked" the drone into landing in Iran.

http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-iran-hijacked-us-drone-says-iranian-en
gineer-164100415.html

(It's a Yahoo link, but it's a story sourced from Christian Science Monitor, which is generally a pretty credible outlet).

I don't doubt some Iranian engineer made the claim, but I'm still skeptical of the claim's veracity. Although it also wouldn't surprise me. Software engineers can have a certain tendency to mix their blind spots with their arrogance, and while they may THINK they've developed a fool-proof system that either (a) has no weak points, or (b) has a certain weak point that they designed in, so only THEY know about it, someone else with some smarts might take one look and go, "Oh, lookie here - a poorly-hidden trap door! Thank you very much, sir!"

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, December 16, 2011 12:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

2 downed drones in 1 week ( yeah, I know some are calling them " uav's " , they're freakin' drones ) , hard to believe in coincidences.

Breaks Gibb's rule # 39.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, December 16, 2011 1:23 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mike,

I stand corrected.

I confess that I posted this very method on this very forum a couple years ago, so if the Iranians read FFF:RWED, I've endangered national security

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 16, 2011 1:38 PM

KWICKO

According to the article, Iran loudly and proudly announced in September that it possessed the ability to do exactly this. Apparently nobody took them seriously.

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Friday, December 16, 2011 2:05 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Iran graduates around 55,000 engineers per year, compared to the U.S.'s 70,000/yr. So while they aren't at our level,...

They have surpassed us in terms of engineers per capita. If your figures are correct, engineers comprise 0.022% of the US population, whereas they comprise 0.067 of the Iranian population. They have 3x the engineers we do, per capita.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Friday, December 16, 2011 5:08 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Iran graduates around 55,000 engineers per year, compared to the U.S.'s 70,000/yr. So while they aren't at our level,...
They have surpassed us in terms of engineers per capita. If your figures are correct, engineers comprise 0.022% of the US population, whereas they comprise 0.067 of the Iranian population. They have 3x the engineers we do, per capita.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

The figures are pretty hard to come by on the web, but those were the most recent I could find for Iran. I can't vouch for the QUALITY of their engineering schools, but I can't really vouch for ours, either. I mean, you've seen a Pontiac Aztek, right?

But yes, Iran is generally a quite well-educated, very young population. Pity they're ruled by a core of religious whackos, but then, so are we if you get right down to it...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, December 16, 2011 6:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I can't vouch for the QUALITY of their engineering schools, but I can't really vouch for ours, either. I mean, you've seen a Pontiac Aztek, right?

Ouch.
That was low, Mikey, even for you...

-F

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Friday, December 16, 2011 6:15 PM

KWICKO

Actually, it was low even for Pontiac. I always suspected it was done as revenge by someone who'd been forced to go cost-cutting on the Fiero project. ;)

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Friday, December 16, 2011 10:54 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Actully, Iran has shot down 9 drones...they're opening a museum.

Does anything think the Iran War hasn't started?

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 12:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
You're welcome to believe that.

Considering your general grasp on reality, i take that as confirmation of my point.

My 'grasp on reality ' ? Unicorns, AGW and Zeus are the stuff of mythology.

Dinosaurs existed.

The world is 4.5 billion years old, give or take a few hundred million.

Reality ? I got it.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 2:32 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Actully, Iran has shot down 9 drones...they're opening a museum.

Does anything think the Iran War hasn't started?

PN, I've been liking your brief comments of late.

Your question is particularly poignant and insightful.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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