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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Folks, that ain't SCIENCE, that's Religion.
And it ain't mine.

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Originally posted by RionaEire:
Sometimes kids with autism start out ordinary, meet their milestones and start talking etc. but then they stop doing those things on time. Maybe that is a subtype of autism, since we chunk a lot of different things and symptoms into the label of "autism". But yeah often it is visably present from the start and something is clearly different from the beginning.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Since this seems to be more of a personal burn-the-heretic bent goin on here than actual reasonable discussion - might I remind people that the notions of Gardasil being dangerous, and Vaccine-caused outbreaks were shouted down in much the same fashion long past the point where the evidence was undeniable.

A *LOT* of modern "medicine" is as much faith, confirmation bias and plain old snakeoil, as is much else - the problem rises when that faith gets in the WAY of science.

Fact: WE DO NOT KNOW, exactly what makes people susceptible to bad vaccine reactions, there's evidence and suspicions, but not a whole bloody lot to go on, yet Thimerosal and Adjuvants are obvious toxins - BUT, no research gets done because of peoples FAITH standing in the way, telling us it's "safe" - well "they" told us Thaliomide(sp?) and Vioxx were safe, that transfats were healthier than butter, that aspartame was healthier than sugar.... on and on and on and on, the lies, which often as not the folks profiting KNEW were lies, and foisted down to people stupid enough to gobble it right the hell up and not only regurgitate it every time it was challenged, but verbally and otherwise attack those who do challenge it, over, and over, and over, and it comes back around and around.

WHY so much FAITH in known liars, who have fed you lie after lie, bogus studies and snakeoil, time and time again - what CREDIBILITY does the medical establishment really have at this point ?

Beyond that, faith IS NOT SCIENCE, you QUESTION, you STUDY - you don't claim this or that and then blockade any further attempts to study something, acting as if all was known, cause the truth is that we really KNOW very little, a lot of medical science is just fucking guesswork based on average results - case in point treating whatever the hell it is (acute febrile neutrophilic dermatosis) with steroids, which is done not because of any science, but that they randomly tried shit they THOUGHT might work, till something did - but they don't KNOW a goddamn thing, do they ?
Not what causes it, not how to get rid of it, not a bloody freakin thing.

So pardon me if your FAITH in the petty tin liar-gods of the medical establishment which has done little but fuck me over all my life kind of annoys the piss outta me.

That said, yes, single-dose, non-preservative vaccines are much, MUCH safer, but almost never used because of the true god of the modern medical establishment - PROFIT.

My issue with is, is what it always has been, rather than debate effectiveness, simply the notion that "acceptable losses" AREN'T - that isn't good enough, to simply write off human beings because to do otherwise would possibly challenge ones faith in an establishment which does not deserve it, to reject the notion of scientific investigation based on, what ?
Mere FAITH.

Folks, that ain't SCIENCE, that's Religion.
And it ain't mine.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So parse the data carefully. But ALSO be prepared to get answers you don't expect, or don't like. And be prepared to accept them IF the evidence points in a direction you don't "like". Otherwise you fall into the same behavior as any other hack.

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Bill hinted that Wenk was impatient, filled out a legal order that was woefully inadequate, broke with established policy by calling 911 to have Detroit police enforce it rather than confront the woman herself, and then misrepresented the meaning of the order to police.

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Well it depends on which side of the fence you fall on. I could also argue that the anti vaccination argument, by and large, is made by people who dismiss scientific thinking all together and prefer myth and voodoo explainations regarding medical matters.

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I understand that science does not provide answers to everything right now, and that there are issues with drugs approved for use. I have no love for the big pharmaceutical companies and the whole 'for profit' nature of some of the medical industry and I have to say that includes a lot of unqualified quacks making money out of distributing water with a speck of orange blossom in it as a cure, but I cannot just dismiss modern medical advances simply because they don't always get it right.

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If people here would prefer to go back to the past, and to a high infant mortality rate, a death sentence for most cancers, low survival rate for diseases such as pneumonia and influenza which killed 20 million people in a few short years post ww1, if people would be happy continue to live with a disease such as polio outbreak that killed and paralised millions over a 10 year period, well I think that you are glass half empty people. Because what you have said is that modern medicine sucks and is a sham. Well I say boo.

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And if you ticked all or most of those boxes, I'd like to ask you whether you have some kind of evangelical anti mainstream religious fervour to your beliefs.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
Now I could list every single paper I read, and detail why they prove nothing conclusive. I could look through the meta-analyses and list all the papers included, and why each one was flawed. I could. But it would take a lot of time.

If she really wanted to know the answer, she would read those same papers herself. And if she knew how to critique scientific papers, she would see the obvious. If she didn't, then none of the criticisms I detail would mean anything, because like M5Nickerson, she would just reiterate the original paper's positions rather than come up with counterpoints. And tell me how stupid and white trashy I and my criticisms are.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I don't wanna suspect, I don't wanna guess, I WANT TO *KNOW* - THAT, is what science is about, finding the hell out, and I'd really like to find out WHY some folk have a bad reaction to vaccines, WHAT causes it, HOW that comes to be, and very most importantly, eliminate that half-assed guesswork and KNOW, so that we can do something about it, instead of just writing off human beings as acceptable losses cause to do otherwise would challenge peoples faith.

And it does - why else would the flamethrowers come out the moment people QUESTION it ?

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
...get to writing.

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hence why some parents create the link between autism and vaccination

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
This thread is becoming unmanageably long. Perhaps we could start an, "I suspect vaccinations, Part II, the revenge," thread? It would be easier to follow new posts.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
So my Son 'developed' Type 1 diabetes.
No genetic predisposition in the family.
What was he exposed to the Wife & I weren't?
Two things: Milk (he drinks hormone-free) & vaccinations.
Diabetes is on the rise in more well-to-do areas (where it's more likely everyone 'has their shots').
It's on the rise in cold areas (where peeps are more likely vaccinated for 'cold season').
And after he was diagnosed it was advised he get a flu shot to avoid getting it, which he PROMPTLY did a few weeks later.

My conclusion? Vaccinations are a scam. A dangerous one. Some peeps die, others get autism, etc.

Also, diabetes began its sharp incline in the early eighties, like, you know, AIDS.
We make our own plagues now, no need for fleas & ticks.

Where are you Signy, I need your comments...


The laughing Chrisisall

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