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This pretty much sums up my views towards Obama...

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 07:24
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Monday, January 16, 2012 2:01 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Last excerpts from an open letter by a Wall Street TYCOON !

( sorry if this was posted before. I just got around to noticing it. )


Quote:

Capitalism is not the source of our problems, as an economy or as a society, and capitalists are not the scourge that they are too often made out to be. As a group, we employ many millions of taxpaying people, pay their salaries, provide them with healthcare coverage, start new companies, found new industries, create new products, fill store shelves at Christmas, and keep the wheels of commerce and progress (and indeed of government, by generating the income whose taxation funds it) moving. To frame the debate as one of rich-and-entitled versus poor-and-dispossessed is to both miss the point and further inflame an already incendiary environment. It is also a naked, political pander to some of the basest human emotions - a strategy, as history teaches, that never ends well for anyone but totalitarians and anarchists.

With due respect, Mr. President, it's time for you to throttle-down the partisan rhetoric and appeal to people's better instincts, not their worst. Rather than assume that the wealthy are a monolithic, selfish and unfeeling lot who must be subjugated by the force of the state, set a tone that encourages people of good will to meet in the middle. When you were a community organizer in Chicago, you learned the art of waging a guerilla campaign against a far superior force. But you've graduated from that milieu and now help to set the agenda for that superior force. You might do well at this point to eschew the polarizing vernacular of political militancy and become the transcendent leader you were elected to be. You are likely to be far more effective, and history is likely to treat you far more kindly for it.

Sincerely,

Leon G. Cooperman Chairman and Chief Executive Officer






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, January 16, 2012 2:33 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Quote:

Capitalism is not the source of our problems, as an economy or as a society, and capitalists are not the scourge that they are too often made out to be. As a group, we employ many millions of taxpaying people, pay their salaries, provide them with healthcare coverage, start new companies, found new industries, create new products, fill store shelves at Christmas, and keep the wheels of commerce and progress (and indeed of government, by generating the income whose taxation funds it) moving. To frame the debate as one of rich-and-entitled versus poor-and-dispossessed is to both miss the point and further inflame an already incendiary environment. It is also a naked, political pander to some of the basest human emotions - a strategy, as history teaches, that never ends well for anyone but totalitarians and anarchists.

With due respect, Mr. President, it's time for you to throttle-down the partisan rhetoric and appeal to people's better instincts, not their worst. Rather than assume that the wealthy are a monolithic, selfish and unfeeling lot who must be subjugated by the force of the state, set a tone that encourages people of good will to meet in the middle. When you were a community organizer in Chicago, you learned the art of waging a guerilla campaign against a far superior force. But you've graduated from that milieu and now help to set the agenda for that superior force. You might do well at this point to eschew the polarizing vernacular of political militancy and become the transcendent leader you were elected to be. You are likely to be far more effective, and history is likely to treat you far more kindly for it.

Sincerely,

Leon G. Cooperman Chairman and Chief Executive Officer






History teaches that pure unadultarated capitalism isn't crash hot either.

Partisan rhetoric = you don't espouse the same views as me (I've noticed that this is no longer acceptable in debates within the US)

I think anywhere outside the US, Obama looks like he is persuing a middle ground, it's just that the US has moved so far to the right that many cannot see that his policies are middle ground, compromise 101. Hell, that has even been a major criticism of him, right? That he has conceded too much to the interests of big business, to the military industrial complex, to the fearmongering of the right who see a public health system as being a RADICAL idea. Sheesh.


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Monday, January 16, 2012 2:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I think you need to read the excerpt again, and then read the whole letter.

And yes, a State run healthcare system IS a " radical " idea, and absolutely will destroy this country.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, January 16, 2012 3:00 PM

HKCAVALIER


*cough* Medicare *cough*

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 3:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
*cough* Medicare *cough*

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



Not 1/7th of the US economy, but still....Medicare's working wonders , ain't it ?

No?

Huh.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, January 16, 2012 3:09 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I think you need to read the excerpt again, and then read the whole letter.

And yes, a State run healthcare system IS a " radical " idea, and absolutely will destroy this country.



Really? Is America too backward to run its own public health system?

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Monday, January 16, 2012 4:00 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yes. The only developed country unable to do so.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 7:51 PM

PHOENIXSHIP


State-run medical care will destroy this country? You mean like veterans get?


"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenixship:
State-run medical care will destroy this country? You mean like veterans get?


"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"



How's SSI working out for us ? Oh, it's not, that's right.

And what % of US tax payers are required to pay for ALL vet's medicare ? And it's still considered the worst care in the US. Think that'll be improved when that level of care gets expanded to everyone ?

Anyway, that's besides the point of the article.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 4:57 AM

BYTEMITE


"Radical" describes an effort that returns a target of reform to an initial or base state or to which fundamental changes are made. It comes from the Latin stem, radix, "root." The word "radish" also comes from this word.

I believe what was meant here was "extreme," as I don't recall having a universal health care system that was taken away or ruined. Unless you count medicare and medicaid, which probably need to be repaired.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 5:00 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Really? Is America too backward to run its own public health system?


...I know this was supposed to be an argument to the contrary, but it sums up the state of things pretty well.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Read the article, thought it was a lot of baseless weaseling. For a start, capitalism does not "employ" a lot of people, it UNemploys them. It doesn't "pay" them, it rips them off so that a very few can get immensely wealthy. It doesn't create products and services... people do. There is nothing in this article about capitalism that can't be done better without it. Except, of course, create a class of oligarchs. Capitalism is very good at that!

Now, defend the article point by point, rappy. If you can.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Read the article, thought it was a lot of baseless weaseling. For a start, capitalism does not "employ" a lot of people, it UNemploys them. It doesn't "pay" them, it rips them off so that a very few can get immensely wealthy. It doesn't create products and services... people do. There is nothing in this article about capitalism that can't be done better without it. Except, of course, create a class of oligarchs. Capitalism is very good at that!

Now, defend the article point by point, rappy. If you can.



Spoken like a true disciple of communism, Sig. So blatantly wrong, on so many points.

Not ONE thing in that article can be done better w/ out capitalism. We know, it's been tried.

I don't have to defend anything, Sig. I already said it sums up my views. The article speaks for itself, and me.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Spoken like a true disciple of capitalism. Actually, if you want to see WHO is successful, it's the mixed economies of northern Europe and Germany, and the mixed economy of China. But, of course, that is a little too much reality for you. Your "views" are well-known, but do they have any basis in reality? Your views: worth listening to.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Love N. Euro socialist countries so much? Move there.

Think Germany's economy is so amazing ? Thank OUR military budget, which pretty much pays for their success.

Too much reality for you ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yanno rappy, I would LOVE to move there. Unfortunately, they won't let the old riff-raff in. As far as us paying for Germany's success... funny, that's what I've been saying all along... let's withdraw our troops from... pretty much everywhere. Worry about ourselves more. And how do you explain the 800-lb Chinese gorilla, the one you so conveniently forgot? Someone has got their head up their ass... still. And it ain't me!

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:42 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


How do I explain China ? You mean a nation that's surviving on the backs of so many working in near slave labor conditions ? I don't think China is in as great shape as some would have us believe.

As for closing over seas bases... I think there's a bit of middle ground that Ron Paul may have been able to carve out, between the far Left and far Right.


And knock off this ' head up your ass' nonsense. It's pretty damn immature, and doesn't advance your position very well, at all.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:21 AM

STORYMARK


Ah, a Rappy thread. Movin' on...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


How do I explain Walmart/Apple/(insert name here)? You mean a corporation that's surviving on the backs of so many working in near slave labor conditions ? I don't think Walmart/Apple/(insert name here) is in as great shape as some would have us believe.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:44 AM

BYTEMITE


Ai ya, China. Now there's a powder-keg waiting for the spark of revolution. The working class is getting mega pissed.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
How do I explain Walmart/Apple/(insert name here)? You mean a corporation that's surviving on the backs of so many working in near slave labor conditions ? I don't think Walmart/Apple/(insert name here) is in as great shape as some would have us believe.



Don't like those places? Don't shop there. Don't work there. And to compare working at any of those places, with living in China ? You have no argument.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Love N. Euro socialist countries so much? Move there.

Think Germany's economy is so amazing ? Thank OUR military budget, which pretty much pays for their success.

Too much reality for you ?




I don't fancy the Northern European countries because I cannot abide that sort of weather. But as for economic/social success stories, they are doing pretty well.

As for the German economy - an interesting success story, yes achieved initially via the Marshall Plan, but also because of how Germany went about its economic restructure.

Again from wiki before they shut down:
"The Germans proudly label their economy a "soziale Marktwirtschaft," or "social market economy," to show that the system as it has developed after World War II has both a material and a social—or human—dimension. They stress the importance of the term "market" because after the Nazi experience they wanted an economy free of state intervention and domination. The only state role in the new West German economy was to protect the competitive environment from monopolistic or oligopolistic tendencies—including its own. The term "social" is stressed because West Germans wanted an economy that would not only help the wealthy but also care for the workers and others who might not prove able to cope with the strenuous competitive demands of a market economy. The term "social" was chosen rather than "socialist" to distinguish their system from those in which the state claimed the right to direct the economy or to intervene in it.

Beyond these principles of the social market economy, but linked to it, comes a more traditional German concept, that of Ordnung, which can be directly translated to mean order but which really means an economy, society, and policy that are structured but not dictatorial. The founders of the social market economy insisted that Denken in Ordnungen—to think in terms of systems of order—was essential. They also spoke of Ordo-Liberalismus because the essence of the concept is that this must be a freely chosen order, not a command order.

Over time, the term "social" in the social market economy began to take on a life of its own. It moved the West German economy toward an extensive social welfare system that has become one of the most expensive in the world. Moreover, the West German federal government and the states (Länder ; sing., Land ) began to compensate for irregularities in economic cycles and for shifts in world production by beginning to shelter and support some sectors and industries. In an even greater departure from the Erhard tradition, the government became an instrument for the preservation of existing industries rather than a force for renewal.[citation needed] In the 1970s, the state assumed an ever more important role in the economy. During the 1980s, Chancellor Helmut Kohl tried to reduce that state role, and he succeeded in part, but German unification again compelled the German government to assume a stronger role in the economy. Thus, the contradiction between the terms "social" and "market" has remained an element for debate in Germany.

Given the internal contradiction in its philosophy, the German economy is both conservative and dynamic. It is conservative in the sense that it draws on the part of the German tradition that envisages some state role in the economy and a cautious attitude toward investment and risk-taking.[citation needed] It is dynamic in the sense that it is directed toward growth—even if that growth may be slow and steady rather than spectacular. It tries to combine the virtues of a market system with the virtues of a social welfare system."

Pretty much what I have been advocating for on other threads.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:54 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Don't like those places? Don't shop there. Don't work there.



You convenietly ignore that in most town with stores like Walmart, smaller shops are driven out of business, and there IS nowhere else to shop.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 5:48 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Magon, interesting information, I really appreciate it. But too many words for rappy. Makes his head hurt.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2012 3:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Don't like those places? Don't shop there. Don't work there.



You convenietly ignore that in most town with stores like Walmart, smaller shops are driven out of business, and there IS nowhere else to shop.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



That's idiotic. I live in a town with a Wal-Mart, right down the street. There are smaller shops all over the place, of all sorts.

In fact, I seem to recall that a Super Wal-Mart is going to be built on a huge vacant lot. Bringing in jobs and tax revenue where none existed before. Looks likes a win / win / win to me.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, January 18, 2012 7:24 AM

STORYMARK


Ah, so your town is the only one that matters. Gotcha.

Tool.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, January 18, 2012 7:24 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But too many words for rappy. Makes his head hurt.



QFT.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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