Are women people? by Niki2

Quote:
Hello,

I think the problem here is the attempt to use historical parameters to predict future behavior.

When in fact I believe that if the future parameters change, the future behavior will change.

Put everyone on an utterly even playing field, and they will all suck or shine at the same rate.

--Anthony

Yes, I'd agree with that.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:38 AM

Quote:
you end up sounding snarky, dismissive, even trolly.

I agree with this. Even when I am arguing similar points of view, I find Byte to be a very angry and negative speaker. I assume this is especially true when she feels strongly about the subject matter. I have subjects I can be bloodthirsty about as well.

I'm just glad people have figured it out. It's not like I haven't been dropping life-sized hints. The devil wants her due, you know?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:47 AM

Quote:
Of course your heart and your liver influence your psyche. How could they not?

Okay then. Tell me when you find brain wave patterns from either of them.

Quote:
This is shockingly specious coming from you.

Then, as Anthony said, maybe you shouldn't be equating an individual experience to a universal constant.

Quote:
I believe that these cultures are in part the result of local variation and in part universal, owing to the disparate aspects of the genders.

I wouldn't mind hearing some examples. I can only think of one, maybe two cultures that behave like this.

I don't think it's universal at all, and this separation by male and female sounds almost like some sort of Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus thing. It's lots simpler then that.

Quote:
Well, sure, if one had no familiarity with human psychology.

I have serious questions about whatever school of psychology you're quoting.

You assume a higher tolerance for pain, which is only true during childbirth due to secretions of certain proteins, and somehow equate it to the menstrual cycle.

Do you have data that connects the two?

Quote:
If we must perpetrate a lie about gender equivalence in order to secure equal rights we don't deserve them, and good golly, we'll never get them. All humans deserve equal rights UNDER THE LAW. That has nothing to do with the facts of gender and identity and everything to do with the APPROPRIATE LIMITS OF STATE POWER.

I have no idea what you're even talking about anymore.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:56 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
That has nothing to do with the facts of gender and identity and everything to do with the APPROPRIATE LIMITS OF STATE POWER.

Hello,

I don't think 'gender and identity' is an issue of discussion and perhaps you meant something else.

In any event, we treat cows different from humans because of perceived differences between cows and humans. Byte is concerned about this simple reality, and I think justifiably so given some recent conservative lawmaking.

She is concerned that if we perceive strong inherent differences between women and men, then as in other aspects of life where differences are perceived, different standards will be enacted in our society. This ranges from accepted social behavior to our actual legislation.

This isn't a theory. This has happened before, and is happening right now.

--Anthony

ETA: and

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:09 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

To answer your question. Absolutely not. We're talking about what gets integrated into "the self" and what gets projected onto "the other." The human who bleeds regularly, on a monthly basis, will tend to integrate bleeding into her own identity, her own sense of her own nature. It will be, relatively, destigmatized. And therefore, when that person feels enraged and wants to hurt or destroy "the other" the thought "make them bleed" is not going to be uppermost in her mind. See what I mean?

Hello,

I see what you are trying to say, but having encountered bleeding women on a few occasions, I can tell you that bleeding is not destigmatized, not transformed into some other experience. My empirical observations don't match your hypothesis.

Hey Anthony,

What I meant by "destigmatized" was entirely dependant on that word "relatively" for the full meaning to be appreciated. This is the trouble with these debates. Folk tend to presume much greater black & white thinking in the folk they argue with than is generally there. I'm talking about mass pyschology and the formation of culture and cultural norms, not whether an individual woman is more likely to freak out about bleeding than an individual man. We can come up with these kinds of negative examples all day, but what does it say about the larger picture? That there is no larger picture? That we cannont know anything, and generalization is far too dangerous for men and women of good conscience to get involved with?

Quote:
Quote:
Whereas, the human who has only bled as the result of some mischance, or as the result of violence perpetrated upon him, may, when wishing another person harm, come up with "make them bleed" a lot more readily. Your notion that the differing experiences of bleeding in men and women would lead women to be more violent doesn't make any kind of sense if you were to think about it for five seconds, far as I can see. Please, give me that much consideration when posting.

I think it may be possible to look at this same information and come to different conclusions even after thinking past 5 seconds.

I don't doubt it. Unfortunately, I got the feeling Byte didn't think too far into it before firing back in her post. Erks me.

Quote:
You've clearly given this some thought, but that doesn't make you correct.

Indisputably true.

Quote:
It's an interesting matter for contemplation, but drawing a firm conclusion from this idea would be premature. Treating it as an obvious truth derived from contemplation is flawed.

Premature collectively, as among us here discussing, but not necessarily individually. I may have a life time of evidence to draw on that brings me close enough to certainly for my own purposes. But when I come here to shop my ideas in the intellectual market, you are quite right. I would be very interested to hear what preliminary conclusions you might draw, if any.

Quote:
Quote:
Similarly, the difference between one's entire biological contribution to a new life being the ejaculation of semen at the moment of orgasm and carrying a baby to term after 8 full months of symbiotic coexistence with the developing life, would naturally have profound consequences on a person's attitude toward the baby, no? At least statistically? The bare fact that a man can have a child without even realizing it and a woman will always know who the mother of her baby is has got to have some far reaching implications, no?

This segment seems to deal with the comparative transformative effect of becoming a mother or a father, and not the difference between men and women. I agree that the process of being a mother can impact a woman. I'd also suggest that being an involved father and helping a pregnant wife can impact a man. These are major life events and should not be discounted. However, they are life events. Experiences. They do not speak to inherent qualities.

But to my way of thinking, experience has everything to do with what makes us who we are. I think some characteristics are inherent to those who share a particular experience. Also, though we may not all become mothers and fathers, we necessarily live in a world full of both. And that fact changes who we are.

This is the premise of depth psychology: there is such a thing as a natural response. In broad terms we all suffer at the death of a loved one, or find a sunny day in summer to be pleasant. Of course, there are individuals who will tell you that is not the case for them, individuals who do not indeed experience these things. But it is presumed that there's an important traumatic reason for such variance. When trying to heal the wounded psyche, we healers all have to start somewhere. See what I mean?

Quote:
Quote:
If you agree with me that gender differences having serious moral implications, what implications might those be?

Actually, she agreed that imagining such differences could have profound cultural and moral implications. As in, if this is accepted, it will lead to a structure of society and common thought that may not be in her best interests.

Oh. Well. That is more consistent with the general thrust of her argument, but again, this has much more to do with politics than the nature of reality. Of course, how I understand reality will impact my political beliefs, but that does not mean that reality and perception are purely "political."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:19 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Of course your heart and your liver influence your psyche. How could they not?

Okay then. Tell me when you find brain wave patterns from either of them.

Holy cow. So much for asking you to be just slightly more forthcoming about your reasoning. How is this not trolling, Byte?

Quote:
Quote:
This is shockingly specious coming from you.

Then, as Anthony said, maybe you shouldn't be equating an individual experience to a universal constant.

Forget it, Byte. You invoke a "universal constant" and I never proposed such a thing. You need to slow the heck down and listen to what people actually say.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:32 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
That has nothing to do with the facts of gender and identity and everything to do with the APPROPRIATE LIMITS OF STATE POWER.

Hello,

I don't think 'gender and identity' is an issue of discussion and perhaps you meant something else.

Um. The Subject line of the thread reads "Are women (gender) people (identity)? The subject is absolutely gender and identity, and their socio-political ramifications. What do you think the subject is?

Quote:
In any event, we treat cows different from humans because of perceived differences between cows and humans. Byte is concerned about this simple reality, and I think justifiably so given some recent conservative lawmaking.

So, because conservative lawmakers tell lies about gender differences, we must throw out the very notion of gender differences as inherently unjust?

Quote:
She is concerned that if we perceive strong inherent differences between women and men, then as in other aspects of life where differences are perceived, different standards will be enacted in our society. This ranges from accepted social behavior to our actual legislation.

But different standards ARE enacted every day and twice on Sundays. Seems to me it's crucial that we get to the reality of these differences, and not simply pretend they don't exist in the interest of political expediency or correctness. Until we do, the regressive and oppressive forces in the world--and in our own psyches!--will always have a trump card they can play.

As they are playing it now.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:49 AM

This is simple disagreement, not trolling, though I don't deny that I do sometimes troll.

As for universal constants, you seemed to be implying that pregnancy and childbirth lead to some kind of inherent nature or tendency among all female kind. I'm not sure how else to describe it.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 10:30 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
She is concerned that if we perceive strong inherent differences between women and men, then as in other aspects of life where differences are perceived, different standards will be enacted in our society. This ranges from accepted social behavior to our actual legislation.
This isn't a theory. This has happened before, and is happening right now.

See, this has been nagging at me, that there was something else at play that made you and others stubborn about differences in men and women. And this seems to be it; that you're afraid if we conclude there are differences then seriously bad consequences may happen for women? So that potential for a negative outcome influences how the data is interpreted. That's not very good social science in my opinion, even on an amateur forum level, even seems like politics influencing science. And that does feel like what's happening and not just from you.
But don't worry Anthony! These fux enacting this crap don't care if you drop a university of study in their lap about how we're all the same, etc, they'd fine some other easy reason to oppress, they'd just go around your facts. < / sad irony >

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 10:45 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Are women (gender) people (identity)? The subject is absolutely gender and identity, and their socio-political ramifications. What do you think the subject is?

Hello,

I stand corrected. I didn't think of 'people' as 'identity' and took the meaning of the thread somewhat less literally to ask, 'Should women be treated like other people' and not literally 'Are women people.'

Quote:
So, because conservative lawmakers tell lies about gender differences, we must throw out the very notion of gender differences as inherently unjust?

Because conservative lawmakers use perceived gender differences as platforms for bad laws, we must be sure that we are not endorsing bad perceptions about gender differences. I think we do and are. I think much of this thread involves people innocently embracing some very bad ideas about gender differences, and coming to some very erroneous conclusions. These conclusions, embraced and accepted, will lead to bad decision making in the future if allowed to go unchallenged.

Quote:
But different standards ARE enacted every day and twice on Sundays. Seems to me it's crucial that we get to the reality of these differences, and not simply pretend they don't exist in the interest of political expediency or correctness. Until we do, the regressive and oppressive forces in the world--and in our own psyches!--will always have a trump card they can play.

The reality of the differences as I perceive them is that they aren't particularly inherent, but are drawn from experiences. And if experience can shape the differences, then altering the experiences will change the differences and even largely eliminate them. Ergo, an analysis of inherent gender differences is flawed on its face. It seeks to create a false standard that is accepted as 'normal' while outliers are seen as aberrant.

If we say women are normally X or Y or Z then we have constructed a box around them, and once we construct that box we will tend to keep them in it, because that is what is normal and anything else is the result of some improper trauma or other aberrant experience.

However, if we resist the urge to define these differences as norms, we can instead embrace the truth I believe in: Altering experience by creating a balanced society will eliminate almost all of these differences. The normal that we might have been so anxious to embrace will become pointless in a different reality, and people outside that normal will no longer be treated as aberrant outsiders, but simply people who do and feel and think like all people do.

We currently create our normals, unfairly, by failing to realize it when we stuff people into boxes, create different experiences for them, and define them as inherently X or Y based on the very same experiences we created and endorsed.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 10:56 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
And this seems to be it; that you're afraid if we conclude there are differences then seriously bad consequences may happen for women? So that potential for a negative outcome influences how the data is interpreted. That's not very good social science in my opinion, even on an amateur forum level, even seems like politics influencing science. And that does feel like what's happening and not just from you.

Hello,

Of course we are afraid of that. Look what happened with evolutionary theory and survival of the fittest.

But let me look at this from the other side of things.

You aren't observing a natural state of things and then naming it. You aren't observing things from a vacuum.

You are observing the state of things from a reality that we have imposed on the test subjects. We are creating the differences and norms that we are then proceeding to define. There is no worse science than that.

What I am saying is that we need to abandon the idea that the trends we are witnessing are inherent, but rather the result of experience. If we alter the experience, new differences (or lack thereof) will present themselves.

The people in reality 1 will say, "Observation and good science reveal women to be inherently X."

The people in reality 2 will say, "Observation and good science reveal women to be inherently Y."

And they'd both be making terribly incorrect conclusions about the nature of women (or men, for that matter.)

Because, to paraphrase a dietary analogy, "You are what you learn."

That's all people are. Teach them something different, and many of the inherent qualities we assumed to be gifted by nature and ancient history or evolution will suddenly be proven to be purely environmental learned behaviors.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 1:38 PM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Teach them something different, and many of the inherent qualities we assumed to be gifted by nature and ancient history or evolution will suddenly be proven to be purely environmental learned behaviors.

Okay, that scares the heck out of me. When you say "teach them something different," and therefore essentially: "my premise will be proven," you are sounding like someone who is determined to change education to fit your program. You sound no different to me than these bastard republicans, "truth through re-education camps" I recall you using the word "indoctrination" earlier, and that also gave me the creeps - seems so out of character to me. It sounds like "our way at any cost" rather than, "let's just find the truth."

You say: "You are observing the state of things from a reality that we have imposed on the test subjects. "

Not at all - I'm observing AS YOU DID a difference in physical size - we did not impose that. A leaned survival behavior that that difference is critical in defining in what choices females made in their behavior and life choices. I'm observing breasts for feeding young - we did not impose that. I am noticing hormonal differences - we did not impose that. I'm noticing differences in violent behavior - we did not impose that. You're in a dangerous area imho where your desires to change things outweighs your objectivity. I'm observing things from what is and what has happened, while you keep clinging to this unreal, theoretical, what if, "If we alter the experience, new differences will present themselves." I'll stick to what is actually observable.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 2:58 PM

HKC: The Subject line of the thread reads "Are women (gender) people (identity)? The subject is absolutely gender and identity.

Yes.
However, if we assume the article below "for your consideration" enlarges the topic ... then it could be about
the injustices inflicted on people due to nothing more than their gender. (I'm not gonna reread it now.)

Pismo: I'll stick to what is actually observable.
Pismo: These fux enacting this crap don't care!

That, to me, would be the bottom line. The only way to protect women & children from bad legislation is to get the fux
out of office. Mostly, this will be at the state level. So my own responsiblity in this is to know my representatives and
discuss them publicly.

AKA: after bitching and defining the problem, take action.
Action has always been my weak point. In this, I allowed the fux to take office.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 3:16 PM

Obama Plans Big Effort to Build Support Among Women =>
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/us/politics/obama-campaign-plans-big
-effort-to-court-women.html

"President Obama’s re-election campaign is beginning an intensified effort this week to build support among women,
using the debate over the new health care law to amplify an appeal that already appears to be benefiting from
partisan clashes over birth control and abortion."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 3:53 PM

Pizmo: there is plenty of science to support my position. There is NOT much support anymore for for the belief that men and women start out particularly different, and that includes on a psychological level. Grey matter and white matter function is poorly understood, and differences develop as the infants mature, which suggests to me that except for the odd outliers everything else comes from environmental pressure and culture that moulds the person and gender roles.

About the only differences I see are physiological sexual dimorphism, but even a lot of that might be an issue of culture. Women might gain more muscle or even release more growth hormone based on diet and activity, which can be cultural.

If you want to argue bias on my part, it is because my experience as a very masculine female is probably very different from the rest of you, except perhaps Niki, but even then I seem to out-masculine her.

I don't support this because I'm so scared that they're going to pass laws against me, otherwise I wouldn't have bitched out Niki early on. I don't care what they pass. Good luck enforcing it against ME and good luck making it stick for the rest of the population. I'm sure it would be as successful as prohibition.

I support this interpretation because it makes the least assumptions about the way humans were early on, and doesn't base those assumptions on what we see NOW. Removing assumptions is very important to my method.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:16 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Okay, that scares the heck out of me. When you say "teach them something different," and therefore essentially: "my premise will be proven," you are sounding like someone who is determined to change education to fit your program. You sound no different to me than these bastard republicans, "truth through re-education camps" I recall you using the word "indoctrination" earlier, and that also gave me the creeps - seems so out of character to me.

Hello,

You waylay your creepiness and shiver in the wrong directions. The indoctrination I speak of is not one I would impose myself, but rather the program of an entire society imposing its system on all the membership therein. Turn on a television, a radio, open a magazine, visit a toy store, watch a movie, listen to your parents, and yes, go to school and try to tell me that our whole lives is not an indoctrination program injecting us with values.

Our whole lives are education camps.

And you worry about me imposing my dangerous values? What values? The value of equality?

If this is your monster, then our views are wide apart.

I hope we do create a society that regards women as the true equals of men. I expect that will mean they will share in all the dreams and nightmares that entails. Including every grace or sin.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:21 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
you keep clinging to this unreal, theoretical, what if, "If we alter the experience, new differences will present themselves."

Hello,

As to this, it is not a theoretical or unreal condition. You have already seen information showing that violence amongst the female population can double in an observable timeframe.

Unless you'd like to posit that women have mutated in that time, you can be darn sure that their society and experiences are the important factor. Hence it is not some wild imagining that a different society will produce different women (and men, for that matter.) That is plainly observable.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:32 PM

Yay Anthony. :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 5:45 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

This thread has gone in a very strange direction and I cannot follow some of the logic being presented.

For what its worth, to throw my two cents in....

I don't believe women to be more humane than men. Humans, as a species, are capable of both empathy and aggression. They have the capacity to feel for others, and when it suits them, to 'dehumanise' others so that they can commit acts of aggression and violence against them.

Males have a greater capacity for aggression than women on the whole. They respond differently to different stimuli. They have greater levels of testosterone. That does not men that men are always aggressive (or conversely that females are always passive), but it means they are more prone to those kind of behaviours. Sociatal factors will play a part, but it will never mean that we are the same.

Equality should not be confused with 'the same'. We are not the same. And I say 'Vive le Differance!'

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:25 PM

Now that you're here, MD ...

How about hormones and other "organic" chemicals? - what the organs add to the blood ...
Heart, liver, kidneys, colon, etc., can they affect brain chemistry or mood?

Good post, btw.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:38 PM

My understanding is that estrogen can trigger aggression, and that it's a key factor as much as testosterone in triggering. Both sexes have estrogen and testosterone.

Also, fight or flight and adrenals look the same in just about everyone, and require about the same amount of stimulus.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:39 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

There is something to be said for hormones. Hormones can make men and women feel more aggressive at times.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:39 PM

Quote:
How about hormones and other "organic" chemicals? - what the organs add to the blood ...
Heart, liver, kidneys, colon, etc., can they affect brain chemistry or mood?

Very very few. There's something called the blood-brain barrier for a reason.

However, certain disorders are potentially thought to be the result of some body proteins being in the brain when they shouldn't be. Or, alternatively, brain chemicals in the body when they're not supposed to be eliciting an allergic reaction. Either way, it's not at all supposed to be the "normal" state.

Also, hormones in the brain have a very different function than when they're in the body. Estrogen in the body is a growth cycle and regulator (and regulates other hormones potentially. Estrogen in the brain acts to reduce inflammation, and also as a regulator, such as the connection between testosterone or estrogen and adrenaline.

I would have accepted you all talking about ovaries as influencing the brain, but the womb and the breasts, not so much. And even then, it's just a pathway that leads to the same macro-level behavioural and physiological result as seen in a male.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:39 PM

Anthony, you are on FIRE tonight. :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:48 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

So are you trying to say that there is NO difference in aggression levels between males and females? That the fact that most violence acts are committed by men is purely cultural?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:50 PM

I think so, yes. And it's only rape and murder that are committed more often by males, other violent acts are by my understanding fairly evenly distributed. Women might make up for the less rapes or murders in some other horrible way, that is in a sense a form of violence.

But it's possible that the rape and murder thing might also be cultural. In a matriarchal society, women might be more inclined to rape and murder. Perhaps because it would be easier for them to get away with it, though I don't know how much that factors into male attempted rape in a patriarchal society. In certain societies it appears that it's a HUGE factor. In other societies it may be a less prominent factor than alienation or rejection or alpha assertation.

I definitely think we all have the same potential to be good OR horrible.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:13 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
So are you trying to say that there is NO difference in aggression levels between males and females? That the fact that most violence acts are committed by men is purely cultural?

Hello,

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/rise_of_the_girl_g
angs_RYY4ra9Gt0OeGSo2nrio9L

I think if you change the environment, you get very different results than you'd expect. I think we see this all the time, but discount it because environments that promote female violence are seen as rare and extreme.

I think we don't realize how much what we consider 'normal' environment impresses behavioral norms on people, creating a cycle of expectation and result. The expectation creates a result that confirms the expectation.

If women didn't have equal capacity for aggression then I don't think girl gangs would work out like they do. They'd just be capped out as 'mean girl' clubs where people verbally insult and ostracize one another.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:48 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Heart, liver, kidneys, colon, etc., can they affect brain chemistry or mood?"

Absolutely.

Why else do you think loss of interest in cigarettes is the first symptom of hepatitis? Nausea of renal failure? Sleepiness of heart failure?

If the blood/brain barrier is so good, why do people swallow, inject and smoke drugs?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:50 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Heart, liver, kidneys, colon, etc., can they affect brain chemistry or mood?"

Absolutely.

Why else do you think loss of interest in cigarettes is the first symptom of hepatitis? Nausea of renal failure? Sleepiness of heart failure?

If the blood/brain barrier is so good, why do people swallow, inject and smoke drugs?

Hello,

That's amazing. I wonder if there is a potential cigarette addiction cure hidden in this hepatitis information.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:57 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Only if you don't mind damaging your liver.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:02 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Is it the liver damage that causes the loss of cigarette craving?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:28 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

That's a good question. The association between an actual distaste for cigarettes and Hepatitis B infection, as well as a resumption of the nicotine craving as the hepatitis infection resolves, has been observed for decades - ever since they've been able to test for the HepB virus to distinguish it from other types of hepatitis. But for a lot of reasons it's not an investigation anyone has pursued.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:32 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I wonder if a certain enzyme or lack of it is the cause. Liver does enzyme stuff, right?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:55 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

The liver does lots of stuff. You can't live without you 'live'r.

It stores glycogen, interconverts amino acids between each other and glucose, breaks down old hemoglobin into bile, de-aminates (removes nitrogen) from nitrogen-containing molecules like in red blood cells and keeps the nitrogen from turning into ammonia, it detoxifies everything from alcohol to medication ... and it's even got a big chunk of your immune function. Compared to the liver's college level, other tissues are in biochemical grade school. The liver makes the nutrients your other tissues need to live, and detoxifies the bad stuff.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:33 PM

Anthony: "I wonder if a certain enzyme or lack of it is the cause. Liver does enzyme stuff, right?"

See how I stopped smoking in the Drugs thread.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:05 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Pizmo: there is plenty of science to support my position. There is NOT much support anymore for for the belief that men and women start out particularly different, and that includes on a psychological level. Grey matter and white matter function is poorly understood, and differences develop as the infants mature, which suggests to me that except for the odd outliers everything else comes from environmental pressure and culture that moulds the person and gender roles.

"Starting out [not] particularly different..." That's as babies, not fully functioning women - of course that would be where differences from learned behavior based on physical differences or other influences would manifest themselves the least. Not sure if you read the posts between Anthony and myself where I suggested after Anthony's posts about physical differences between genders (as well as obvious birthing and feeding responsibilities), that those could easily explain differing, adapted behavior over time.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
About the only differences I see are physiological sexual dimorphism, but even a lot of that might be an issue of culture. Women might gain more muscle or even release more growth hormone based on diet and activity, which can be cultural.

If you want to argue bias on my part, it is because my experience as a very masculine female is probably very different from the rest of you, except perhaps Niki, but even then I seem to out-masculine her.
I don't support this because I'm so scared that they're going to pass laws against me, otherwise I wouldn't have bitched out Niki early on. I don't care what they pass. Good luck enforcing it against ME and good luck making it stick for the rest of the population. I'm sure it would be as successful as prohibition.

I support this interpretation because it makes the least assumptions about the way humans were early on, and doesn't base those assumptions on what we see NOW. Removing assumptions is very important to my method.

I'm glad you admit your bias and fear - I think it definitely colors your objectivity.

I would like to remove assumptions too - assumptions that women need to change to be considered equal or have equal rights, or that women can't celebrate their differences without worrying they'll be treated differently, or having different rights.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:10 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Our whole lives are education camps.

And you worry about me imposing my dangerous values? What values? The value of equality?

If this is your monster, then our views are wide apart.

I hope we do create a society that regards women as the true equals of men. I expect that will mean they will share in all the dreams and nightmares that entails. Including every grace or sin.

Geezus Anthony, over-wrought and condescend much? Can you do me a favor and not make these grand pronouncements about treating women equally like you are the only one who has ever thought of it or that it is some how your exclusive idea? I really don't think there is a single person in this 100+ post thread that feels any different than you (I don't see AU posting anywhere).

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:28 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

To no one in particular: I'm absolutely speechless to see these responses, especially from females on the board.

Men have raped and beaten women in their homes, sold them into slavery and prostitution, paid them less for their work, murdered their husbands by the millions, indoctrinated their children into female hate, and when marriage goes bad and there are children women end up more than 80% of the time being the responsible, full time parent. By an overwhelming majority men break laws and commit violence and more civil unrest than women, and mutilate their bodies so they can't enjoy sex, and when these things are pointed out what do women on this board say by a surprising percent? "naw, we're just as bad..." !!!

And the irony continues, it's all within a thread that started with the latest male perpetrated evils upon women including state sponsored rape.
Hey guys! We can't lose! We can step on them and they'll defend us! Is that like the nurturing thing? Like when you see the mother of a serial killer say, "I don't think he did it, he's really a nice boy." If you can't get outraged by the differences in our inhumane behavior, especially toward you - I give up, I think maybe you're getting what you deserve.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:34 AM

Quote:
Not sure if you read the posts between Anthony and myself where I suggested after Anthony's posts about physical differences between genders (as well as obvious birthing and feeding responsibilities), that those could easily explain differing, adapted behavior over time.

They don't because males would HAVE to have shared in child care responsibilities. Similarly, some females would have had to hunt.

But apart from that, this is frustrating because while I do have some ideas about how people might have operated in prehistoric times, it simply doesn't necessarily follow that explains modern social gender roles. Basically you're making assumptions based on what could be a flawed premise.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:40 AM

Quote:
Absolutely.

Why else do you think loss of interest in cigarettes is the first symptom of hepatitis? Nausea of renal failure? Sleepiness of heart failure?

If the blood/brain barrier is so good, why do people swallow, inject and smoke drugs?

You're comparing nausea and oxygen deprivation fatigue to brain altering chemicals? Those are just cause and effect.

I mean yes, there's some signaling that goes on to the brain, but generally speaking those functions are performed by glands and the nervous system, and glands secrete signaling chemicals that cross the blood brain barrier. And in cases of drugs, they get through the blood brain barrier because they mimic neurotransmitters, which is why they have the effect on the brain that they do.

The heart muscles signal each other, liver cells can send signals to other liver cells to propagate if there's liver damage, the digestive system and waste removal systems are interconnected and have their own signaling stuff, but apart from the nerve impulse to the heart cells all those functions are automatic.

The womb and the breasts do not signal the brain. The ovaries secrete estrogen and progesterone, and can influence the brain. Estrogen increases aggression, and progesterone is released during pregnancy and has a sedating effect, except when it behaves paradoxically.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Pizmo, I AM outraged, that's part of why I put up the thread. The article is kind of a "snark", but given what's been happening lately, I'm pretty head up about it. I don't know what other females on the board have been saying women are no different, but for a while there I was arguing the point with Byte. I gave up on this thread a while ago, partly because of the direction it went.

To me, it's transparent, and the question isn't whether women and men differ, it's the "Are Women People" question which is apropos to how white, male legislators seem to be viewing us nowadays. As in "Are women people with the same rights as men?" The mere idea that a bunch of religious men made up that panel is enough to make me scream, not to mention their excuse that "It's not about contraception, it's about religion" so they didn't NEED any women on the panel.

Which is, by the way, the actual reason they rejected her--the bit about "too late" was spin that came in later.

Oh, Anthony, if you're around, they LOVED your sign idea. It got many honks and thumbs-up from passers by, and two women actually leaned over as they walked past and said "Thank you!" The other side says "Government out of women's health", and one of my fellow demonstrators said she had wanted to do one, too, but her placard is too small, so I'm making one for her for next week. Haven't thought up anything as good as what you did, so it's probably going to be "Birth control should be up to the woman, not legislators" and "Contraception?! It's 2012, not 1940". (wanted to put "the woman and her doctor" on the first, but it's too long.) If you or anyone have any better ideas, please speak up. Will post pic of the finished product of your suggestion, but gotta get the dogs out first...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
To no one in particular: I'm absolutely speechless to see these responses, especially from females on the board.

Men have raped and beaten women in their homes, sold them into slavery and prostitution, paid them less for their work, murdered their husbands by the millions, indoctrinated their children into female hate, and when marriage goes bad and there are children women end up more than 80% of the time being the responsible, full time parent. By an overwhelming majority men break laws and commit violence and more civil unrest than women, and mutilate their bodies so they can't enjoy sex, and when these things are pointed out what do women on this board say by a surprising percent? "naw, we're just as bad..." !!!
And the irony continues, it's all within a thread that started with the latest male perpetrated evils upon women including state sponsored rape.
Hey guys! We can't lose! We can step on them and they'll defend us! Is that like the nurturing thing? Like when you see the mother of a serial killer say, "I don't think he did it, he's really a nice boy." If you can't get outraged by the differences in our inhumane behavior, especially toward you - I give up, I think maybe you're getting what you deserve.

Yes, because women taking pot shots at the mental stability of men is entirely necessary for women to achieve equal rights with men. We must prove women are more awesome than men or we'll never get any respect.

Also, my viewpoints are exactly the same as condoning men beating on their wives, and I love the transvaginal ultrasound.

Quote:

I'm glad you admit your bias and fear - I think it definitely colors your objectivity.

Why do I keep talking to you? Your theories are outdated, you pretty much ignore everything I have to say or misconstrue me when you address it, and that last response was entirely irrational. Not only that, but our personalities appear to conflict in a major way, two times before I've really wanted to never talk to you again - and I've only wanted to pursue a non-violent resolution simply because we aren't having these conversations in person and I can't throw you through a window.

Even with Sig, who I disagree a lot with, I've managed to find some realm where we can have some civility. And with HK, I actually feel a little bad when I outright dismiss her mysticism ideas, though not enough to change my mind on anything. But you? Not at all.

I'm not going to make an idle threat this time about how I'm not going to talk to you. Instead, I'm going to ask YOU to not talk to ME.

Is that too whiny? Is that too wishy washy and reliant on a man's condescension? How about I rephrase that.

Don't talk to me. Ever again.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:28 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Geezus Anthony, over-wrought and condescend much? Can you do me a favor and not make these grand pronouncements

Hello,

You don't get to bring in re-education camps and then gasp about my over-wrought and grand pronouncements.

My response was very much tonally in line with the remarkable post that preceded it, and assumed as much about your position as you did about mine.

Really, now.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:29 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Oh, Anthony, if you're around, they LOVED your sign idea. It got many honks and thumbs-up from passers by, and two women actually leaned over as they walked past and said "Thank you!"

Hello Niki,

I'm very glad people liked the sign. If I have any more ideas, I'll let you know. I think what you're doing is great.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:38 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I give up, I think maybe you're getting what you deserve.

Hello,

Wow. Here I am talking about how all of society is engineered to put men into a superior position. How it's all set up to impose values on women that make them believe they should be more docile and subservient and cripple themselves in a variety of ways. Railing against these elements of society and saying, "I want it to be different."

And because I believe an equal society would see women equal us in all ways, in all our potential for glory and abuse, you say this in response.

Quote:
If you can't get outraged by the differences in our inhumane behavior, especially toward you - I give up, I think maybe you're getting what you deserve.

Everyone here is outraged at the different way women are being treated. As you said earlier, I don't think Mr. Raptor has posted in this thread. I think it's simply that some of us don't feel the need to think of women as some alien creature in order to believe they should have equal rights. We don't need to find them fundamentally less capable of types of behavior.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:50 AM

Quote:
To me, it's transparent, and the question isn't whether women and men differ, it's the "Are Women People" question which is apropos to how white, male legislators seem to be viewing us nowadays. As in "Are women people with the same rights as men?"

That's fair. This topic has gone a little out of the way.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:52 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
To no one in particular: I'm absolutely speechless to see these responses, especially from females on the board.

Men have raped and beaten women in their homes, sold them into slavery and prostitution, paid them less for their work, murdered their husbands by the millions, indoctrinated their children into female hate, and when marriage goes bad and there are children women end up more than 80% of the time being the responsible, full time parent. By an overwhelming majority men break laws and commit violence and more civil unrest than women, and mutilate their bodies so they can't enjoy sex, and when these things are pointed out what do women on this board say by a surprising percent? "naw, we're just as bad..." !!!
And the irony continues, it's all within a thread that started with the latest male perpetrated evils upon women including state sponsored rape.
Hey guys! We can't lose! We can step on them and they'll defend us! Is that like the nurturing thing? Like when you see the mother of a serial killer say, "I don't think he did it, he's really a nice boy." If you can't get outraged by the differences in our inhumane behavior, especially toward you - I give up, I think maybe you're getting what you deserve.

Yes, because women taking pot shots at the mental stability of men is entirely necessary for women to achieve equal rights with men. We must prove women are more awesome than men or we'll never get the respect we deserve.

Also, my viewpoints are exactly the same as condoning men beating on their wives, and I love the transvaginal ultrasound.

There you go presuming the worst of intentions for me so you can act outraged - damn, never said any of what you credit me with - that's just shabby as hell.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:

I'm glad you admit your bias and fear - I think it definitely colors your objectivity.

Why do I keep talking to you? Your theories are outdated, you pretty much ignore everything I have to say or misconstrue me when you address it, and that last response was entirely irrational. Not only that, but our personalities appear to conflict in a major way, two times before I've really wanted to never talk to you again - and I've only wanted to pursue a non-violent resolution simply because we aren't having these conversations in person and I can't throw you through a window.

I agree with you when you admit you're biased and then you get threatening - you're a trip.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Even with Sig, who I disagree a lot with, I've managed to find some realm where we can have some civility. And with HK, I actually feel a little bad when I outright dismiss her mysticism ideas, though not enough to change my mind on anything. But you? Not at all.

I'm not going to make an idle threat this time about how I'm not going to talk to you. Instead, I'm going to ask YOU to not talk to ME.

Is that too whiny? Is that too wishy washy and reliant on a man's condescension? How about I rephrase that.

Don't talk to me. Ever again.

Bye-bye Byte, I sincerely wish you good luck with your life.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:53 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
To me, it's transparent, and the question isn't whether women and men differ, it's the "Are Women People" question which is apropos to how white, male legislators seem to be viewing us nowadays. As in "Are women people with the same rights as men?"

That's fair. This topic has gone a little out of the way.

Hello,

Well, clearly we all agree that women deserve equal rights and respect.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:57 AM