No Privacy for Children? by AnthonyT

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
The school has no rights to the facebook login, nor outside e-mail, nor punishing students for what they put on outside web-sites. Schools are not parents.

Correct.

And having an ARMED GOON present for the sole purpose of intimidation value, being they had no legal right to that information - is beyond the pale, since in light of that fact he was not within his capacity as a police officer but rather complicit in an act of harrassment and intimidation under color of law, which *IS* a crime, albeit one never addressed.

I saw it, didn't mention it here cause I am busy and such incidents are commonplace enough that they generally don't even provoke notice much less interest - that don't mean I ain't planning to work them bastards over if I get the chance though.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:30 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

This sort of thing started when I was in school, when backpacks and lockers started being searched on a regular basis for weapons or drugs. So-called zero tolerance policies for any sort of violent behavior made my school administrators and psychiatrists threaten to have me labeled as a problem child for defending myself, and my mother had to have regular meetings with them to assure them there were no weapons in the house. They pressured her to have me sent to counseling, and tried like hell to bust me for drugs, which is downright laughable since I never touched the stuff.
In high school, I saw irregular patrols of sniffer dogs in the hall, and students being frisked by on-campus officers.
Any objections were met with something basically along the lines of, "You, as a minor, do not have rights that adults are entitled to." I'm fortunate that I had parents who would come to bat for me. This being a long-standing attitude that is clearly just getting worse, the parents will need to be the ones to step in and say this is not okay, and file formal complaints against the teachers or administrators responsible. Because, lamentably, it's true that children have no legal standing, and must be protected by the adults that care for them. Clearly, these adults at the school are not interested in such protection, and need to be called to task by parents or school board officials.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:00 PM

OONJERAH

I am "too much a lady" to spit out my first, angry reaction to this.
I feel: If schools must frisk, intimidate, invade the privacy of, and embarrass kids, they
should be required to call kids' parents and invite them to oversee this.

But - my own high school was long ago & rural. Almost innocent by today's standards.

School massacres had not yet entered the equation.

Home schooling's starting to sound better compared to this.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 1:51 PM

Actually she was on facebook illegally, as you must be 13 to be on it.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:16 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Actually she was on facebook illegally, as you must be 13 to be on it.

Hello,

Since facebook wasn't pressing charges, I'm not sure the relevancy.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:19 PM

The relevancy is that she shouldn't have a facebook page in the first place.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:23 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The relevancy is that she shouldn't have a facebook page in the first place.

Hello,

But what does that have to do with her and the school and the situation of extracting passwords via intimidation?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:51 PM

HERO

Simple, ban Facebook from password protecting mines accounts.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:57 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Simple, ban Facebook from password protecting mines accounts.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

Hello,

Does that really seem like the solution?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:19 PM

I'm not really sure what sort of response you are expecting. What right does a child have to privacy when they post on a social network site? They have no privacy, there is no privacy for young or old. What you post can and will be accessed one way or another, with or without the heavy handed tactics used in this case.

Social network sites can so problematic for parents and schools, with cyberbullying being a huge issue. Kids have been bullied to death on these sites, kids have written suicide notes on facebook, or threatened to kill or harm others. And on a lower level, I think a lot of ugly social pecking happens on these sites. SO I am no fan of Facebook for young people, especially when they are not even of age to be on it.

So I guess parents and schools are grappling with how to manage these issues, and sometimes they come up with cack handed solutions like the one in the article.

But I think the sooner everyone comes to term with the implications of posting stuff online, or emailing, texting etc etc the better

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:38 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I'm not really sure what sort of response you are expecting.

Hello,

Probably one involving the

Quote:
cack handed solutions

And not one suggesting that you should have no expectation of privacy.

I consider intimidating a kid to give up her passwords to be no different than intimidating a kid to give up her housekeys.

If this is a law enforcement situation, then the parents should have been there with the kid. If the kid refused to hand over the relevant material, the material could have been requested properly and legally according to the procedures for criminal investigations.

As schools learn to 'grapple' with these issues, they need to remember to observe everyone's rights. Whether the suspect is being charged with 'cyber bullying' or 'murder' all rights need to be properly observed under the law.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:25 PM

It's just that I'm not sure what 'rights' a 12 year old has who is accessing a social forum that she is not legally allowed to access.

I'm additionally not sure what rights anyone has to privacy if they have been charged with murder, attempted murder, or many other illegal activities.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:33 PM

I call shenanigans.

That whole not supposed to be on Facebook is a terms of service violation between her and Facebook, and they can act or not as they wish, up to and including dumping the account and banning her, but to create some kinda phony-ass justification for the school, which is NOT part of Facebook to have some authority to act on their behalf is pure bunk - where the HELL do you people come up with such ridiculous concepts ?

AND, on top of that, IF the school had such a damn problem with the kid having a Facebook account or anything posted on it, proper procedure is for them to inform the parents and let THEM deal with it or not as they may.

I shouldn't have to be stating the bloody friggin obvious here, but there it is.

Oh, and Phoenixrose ?
I feel ya, my situation was leaps and bounds worse than that, since it was being labelled a troublemaker for self-defense which you could say started the cascade failure which became my life, and drove the final wedge in between me and our society - bear in mind it was an act of self-defense which ran my father from the house, and another such which originally got me expelled since the administrator rather frankly admitted victim-blaming because when multiple children assault an individual, it's so much easier to deal with one set of irate parents than several, right ?
(My mothers reaction to that had much to do with that expulsion, especially when followed by a refusal to medicate her son into submission.)

Hell, they didn't know what to DO with a kid who didn't play by the unspoken "rules" of that brutal, stratified, and wholly artificial "society" which embodies public school, who didn't respect the pecking order, didn't know or see the difference between the imitation "fights" of school and a real life or death brawl, and who actually thought he had rights and they should be respected!
From their perspective, I was a nightmare....

But yanno, as Siggy says people are the sum of their life experiences, and one reason I am so terribly, bitterly rabid about self-defense and the right thereof, is that much like this or other rights, all throughout my youth this society and it's systems tried to take and defy those rights "for my own good", which is and always has been a goddamned lie cause there's some serious malicious intent goin on almost every time those words are uttered to a child.

Now, in THIS case it seems abundantly clear that the school wanted to do an end-run around not only the childs rights, but those of the parents as well, else they would have involved them, and they chose not to in clear defiance of both a moral responsibility, proper procedure, and very likely a legal responsibility as well.

As a just in case measure, some months ago I included Kira and her little brother on my lawyers retainer, both of them have his card and specific instructions that if things go south in that kinda fashion they're to refuse to talk to ANYONE, present the card, and demand said lawyer be present - Kiras phone also has an emergency paging function in case of that eventuality as well, and I guess it's fairly obvious who it pages.
She doesn't actually USE it in school as she's not allowed to, but everyone including the administration allows her to keep it in her possession cause it's got a GPS and she has a tendancy to wander off, mind.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'm additionally not sure what rights anyone has to privacy if they have been charged with murder, attempted murder, or many other illegal activities.

That, M'lady - is downright insane.
Firstoff there's this wee little thing called presumption of innocence, you might have heard of it once in a great while ?

On top of that the notorious flaws of our so-called justice system (not sure about yours) leave it pretty clear that it's often misused, abused or applied improperly so it's always best to err on the side of innocence.

Beyond even that, there's so MANY ridiculous mala-prohibita things which are technically "illegal" no human being can live a normal life for even one day without violating several of them, and with that in mind you would so gleefully sever all their rights ?

Mind you, one of the things I happen to be fighting against is how the US applies the Forever-Felony mark of doom which all but solidly condemns one so marked to a life of crime cause it cuts them off from ANY OTHER WAY, not to mention stripping people of the right to self defense would be bad enough, but stripping them of the right to vote effectively makes them unpersons...

Shit, why not just shoot them in the fucking head the instant they're accused if yer gonna go that route, at least its quicker.

As for the kid in question - that's between her, her parents, and the service in question - it is NOT for us to say, nor for anyone else outside of those three factors....
Just cause YOU don't LIKE it, doesn't give you any bloody right to run roughshod over people, even if it is easier when they can't fight back.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:01 PM

Yep, hear you, Frem. I don't understand why police had to be involved at all.

But...I can tell you, if I posted deflamatory remarks about my CEO or work on Facebook, I would face disciplinary procedures. So I would have thought that the school contacting the girls parents, and the girl facing some consequences would have been normal ie suspending her Facebook account = if it can really be done - would have been sufficient.

I don't see this as an issue about privacy, but about the overly authoritarians tactics of the school and police in dealing with this situation.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:12 PM

Yah, Sorry I came on a little overbearing mind, sensitive topic this...

I will say that the school themselves could have informed Facebook of the Terms of Service violation directly without stepping on anyones rights.
That was indeed within their authority both moral and legal.

I suspect, only suspect, mind you - that as usual when such situations happen, like how it went with Lower Merion, there's something at work in the situation between the kid, the parents and the school much wider and deeper than a facebook post or two - but which enabled that to become an excuse for pulling crap they couldn't justify any other way...
Remember, the Lower Merion thing had really nothing to do with Blake, and everything to do with the school and the neighborhood hating his parents for allegedly being of a lower social class.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:10 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh, and Phoenixrose ?
I feel ya, my situation was leaps and bounds worse than that, since it was being labelled a troublemaker for self-defense which you could say started the cascade failure which became my life, and drove the final wedge in between me and our society

It's kind of beyond terrible, isn't it? I wasn't even officially labelled, and it took me a long time to get my shit together. I hated school. I wanted nothing to do with school once I'd fulfilled my sentence there. I paid for it with years of terrible jobs and a general lack of purpose. Now I'm a Dean's List student, mostly enjoying myself, certainly enjoying my education, and will hopefully have a career someday.
Still hate those high-school-regressed little fuckers who come into college playing the same old games, though. I have exactly zero time for their shit. At least administrators in college treat me like a human being. Guess that's what being all legal and adult will do for you.

As far as I can see from the article, this girl was not charged with a crime. The only thing she was guilty of was complaining about people being mean to her at school. This has no doubt been a tradition since the dawn of schools, because kids are mean to each other. What this new generation needs to get used to is that it's sometimes best to vent verbally, because people will use written record against you. To be fair, I had to learn that myself, but I didn't grow up on Twitter. When I was in middle school, it was notebooks and stuff that I had to make sure I didn't let out of my sight so I couldn't get in trouble (or be bullied) for raging about hating the world and all the stinky people in it. Keeping a notebook private is much easier than keeping an online post private, and I still occasionally got in trouble for notebooks or journals I wasn't careful enough with; if not with the staff, then certainly with my merciless classmates.
the fact that it seems to be the nature of people to use such things does not excuse terrifying a young girl into giving up private information, though. She had committed no crime, was not even suspected of anything that could be called a crime, there was no warrant, and she was a minor without her parents present. These actions were inexcusable.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:17 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... armed with a Taser ..."

Off topic but, it bothers me more and more that using Tasers as a pain compliance tool rather than a non-deadly alternative to guns has become commonplace.

I wonder if requiring the same kind of paperwork for using a Taser as for using a gun would reverse the trend and make it explicitly clear that Tasers are only meant to be used as a direct one-for-one substitute for a gun. Rather than finding new and creative ways and reasons to use them.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:45 AM

Kiki - I pointed out right here on this very forum some time ago that was GOING to happen as soon as they started being issued, only to be mocked and shouted down for it, and here we are.

And yes, that was my solution as well, placing the Taser just below the firearm in the force continuum since it is a LESS-lethal, rather than NON-lethal, weapon, and should damn well require the same level of accountability as a firearm.

Wayne county solved a lot of those issues by first moving to a Taser model with an internal counter, which didn't work cause before they were even issued the punks in blue were circulating a cheat sheet of how to reset or disable them (proof in my eyes that almost all of the abuse of em is premeditated rather than heat of the moment, cop-mafia street justice, yes?) and then finally to a model with an integral camera, which severely curtailed abuse of the devices until current pinhead and Worthy drone Chief Bing basically decided to look the other way and all but neuter internal affairs with the help of the corrupt Feds who are SUPPOSED to be overseeing the multiple consent decrees the Detroit police are currently ignoring - hell, the former Fed was sleeping with the police liason they were supposed to be forcing into compliance, meh.
Anyhows, accountability is the key, yes.

Phoenixrose - yanno, I used to write short stories and poetry for a time in high school, and allegedley it was pretty good, but that came to a total fiasco after one bit of dark poetry titled Wendsdays Child got me carted off to the local hospital for observation and placed on suicide watch till I lied to them and told them I plaguarized it...

One thing I hated about so-called education is that they force kids to read things, and then force them to form ONLY CERTAIN OPINIONS about what they have read - any other interpretation but the officially approved one results in a poor grade, for example my Ex got failed on her assessment of Machiavellis The Prince because in her opinion the work was satire and he was being sarcastic.
And yanno, it CAN be taken or interpreted that way without whatever impinging on the content or quality of the work, but she was blisteringly censured by the teacher and instructed to do it over, which she refused utterly resulting in being handed a failing grade.

For me school was somewhere between prison and concentration camp, plus some of the schools I went to were a hell of a lot nastier and more blatant in the conditioning, especially the second-chance schools, the finale of those having an even seedier agenda.
But I do like to learn, I have a greed for information which borders on a dragons lust for gold - thing was, for me school stood in the WAY of my education, I begrudged sitting there shuffling pure busywork and listening to pompous jackasses who were just marking time - I concealed it after learning the hard way about square pegs, but I was generally a year or two ahead of any lesson plan offered, which one of the few teachers I ever liked, Zoeller, the chem teacher, deliberately aided.
He knew I would swipe and return both advanced course materials and teaching guides which contained on many an occasion useful information of their own, so he took to discreetely leaving stuff he wanted me to read, or thought I should read, in a certain place knowing I would be unable to resist the challenge and would return them when finished.

Most of my education at the time was via encylopedia britannica, having obtained a full set of them from a local yard sale and more or less reading them cover to cover including the atlas - it was from them I discovered the Antifederalists and the Antifederalist papers as our so-called history class tried to depict the Federalist papers as a mere explaination of events from our betters to us ignorant peons and there was utterly NO mention or even hint of any counter-argument....
Right up till I brought it with me and tore one holy hell of a strip off Chester - who (and I think he was not in agreement with the lesson plan, elsewise he'd have pitched me out on my ear) then allowed and seemed even to encourage some of the virulent debates between what was being taught in that class and what the actual history says, which pulled in a lot of the other students who would seek out and offer information or opinions of their own - but I spent a LOT of time in that class standing on my chair (I was so short this was generally tolerated) and delivering blistering verbal fullisades, which shocked a lot of folk all by itself cause as a rule I barely spoke at all till then.

But I digress - anyhows, for me, public school was an OBSTACLE to my education for the most part, and I resented it bitterly.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:45 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
...for example my Ex got failed on her assessment of Machiavellis The Prince because in her opinion the work was satire and he was being sarcastic.

Wow, that's funny because I'm pretty sure she was right. At least, it's been interpreted as such my quite a few people. Machiavelli was well known for his satire. Most college level courses will discuss the likely satiric bent of The Prince, and there are several essays making a case for such an interpretation.
Not terribly surprising, though. I actually had some great teachers in middle and high school, but the majority of them had no idea what they were talking about. To me, the math courses were the worst. None of my instructors could actually give a why for all these formulas we were expected to memorize, we were just told they worked. Like miracles. Like this was some kind of church and we needed to take it on faith. It's not easy for me to remember operations that seem to have no rhyme or reason, and math textbooks are universally written by terrible communicators, so I just came away thinking that I wasn't very good at math. Turns out, I'm very good at math when it's explained like, you know, a science. Public school, in all ways, was suffering. I'm glad to be in college. I wish there were public schools run more like college, because if I ever have children the last place I want them is in the current public school system.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:18 AM

Hmmm, I don't think so. He was commissioned to write it for his local Prince, and it was considered scandalous because what he wrote about was real politic ie what rulers actually do rather than what they actually say they do.

The best teachers say ' have whatever opinion you like, but be prepared to back it up'

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:31 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
be prepared to back it up'

'Kay.

http://www.unt.edu/honors/eaglefeather/2007_Issue/kniatt.shtml "Another point greatly debated, and supportive of The Prince as a satire, is the idea that Machiavelli wrote The Prince after he drafted the first part of The Discourses on Livy. . . . The Prince challenges all of Machiavelli’s other works and what we know of his life. This inconsistency and the knowledge of Machiavelli’s opinions give evidence that perhaps The Prince is a satire."
http://records.viu.ca/~Johnstoi/introser/machiavelli.htm "My take is... the book is, first and foremost, a satire, so that many of the things we find in it which are contradictory, morally absurd, and specious are there quite deliberately in order to ridicule two things—first, the Medici family itself and, second, the very notion of tyrannical rule embodied in the government of the Prince..."
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/machiavelli/ "Some scholars, such as Garrett Mattingly (1958), have pronounced Machiavelli the supreme satirist, pointing out the foibles of princes and their advisors. The fact that Machiavelli later wrote biting popular stage comedies is cited as evidence in support of his strong satirical bent."

And so on. There is plenty of evidence that The Prince was satire, whether commissioned as such or not. Such an opinion, shared by several scholars, should not have yielded a failing grade.

(It's also amusingly mentioned in this cracked.com article: http://www.cracked.com/article_18787_6-books-everyone-including-your-e
nglish-teacher-got-wrong.html )

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:40 AM

OONJERAH

Sophomore year, plane geometry, class was taught by a Good Old Boy.
I don't know if the boys were graded fairly; none of the girls were.
I earned an A and got a C; the other girls got Ds & Fs.
My younger sis once got an F for turning in a composition that was so
good, the teacher assumed it was copied from a pro.

But the ... school kids should not be abused by the school & the law.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The best teachers say ' have whatever opinion you like, but be prepared to back it up'

*laughing*
The worst teachers too, and so many of them bitterly regretted those words...
Special mention goes to a teacher where I went to summer school cause they kept changing the damn credit requirements mid-year and I wound up having to make up a friggin ELECTIVE, which in order to do I had to throw an English class in with it, right ?

So I took Speech I - run by a nasty lady by the name of Anderson who didn't like the fact that I printed out my work instead of handwriting it(1), docked me for it, didn't care for my attitude and frankly didn't care for me, and eventually his resulted in her giving me that whole life-is-hard speech in the library as if I were one of the usual pack of clueless suburban brats...
And I let her HAVE it, man.. I verbally BROKE her, she was bawling and sniffling and told me I would never darken the doorstep of her classroom again - to which I cut her off by telling her I was gonna be back tomorrow and she just better learn to freakin DEAL WITH IT, and slammed the door behind me.

Next day I walked in, and got a standing O - guess no one else liked her much neither.
I was a little POéd that she gave me a bare minimum "C" - I think that stunt alone shoulda bought me an "A", cause it WAS Speech I, right ?
(She rather curtly informed me I was no longer under any obligation to do the classwork and passed me just to be rid of me.)

My mother inquired sometime after that about night classes for herself and the administrator all but threw us off the property.
"Lady, I do not want your son, or you, if you're anything like him, anywhere near my school EVER again!"
My mothers response was not very diplomatic, but quite extensive, mildy racist, and quite, quite profane - I was apalled, yet impressed.

-Frem
(1) - Hand Writing for me is both difficult and very painful...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgraphia
Ergo the very instant I could afford and use one, I used a Dot Matrix Printer for schoolwork despite being docked for it, called lazy and mocked - finding out two decades later there was an actual CAUSE sent me into an epic fit of rage in which I all but destroyed my office, cause of all those years of being considered weak-stupid-lazy and incompetent, plus having to suffer and struggle cause handwriting was often graded, you bet I am bitter about it.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 7:46 PM

OONJERAH

Girl sues her school after being punished for Facebook comments => http://www.northwestohio.com/news/story.aspx?id=730394

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:11 PM