REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The High Price of Telling the Truth About Islam

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, February 5, 2017 16:51
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Saturday, June 23, 2012 8:32 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



A strange thing happened to me today when I was driving past the Federal Building in Los Angeles. There were a crowd of people assembled there with signs which said that Israel is an aggressive force in the Middle East and that Iran is being picked on. As I stopped at a red light I heard a man with a mega phone lead the protesters in a chant charging Obama with genocide. I saw many young people and several Muslim women with their heads covered. It was an anti-war demonstration that probably a year ago I would have supported. But although I am not in favor of military action, I know that Iran is not another Iraq, and that in fact there is more going on here than the overly-simplified picture that the protestors were painting, as cars drove by honking in support. As the light turned green another sign caught my eye – a picture of the Twin Towers burning which read “911 Was an Inside Job”. As I looked at a sea of Palestinian flags and college kids banging on drums I felt a certain frustration – frustration based on a series of events that have changed my world view.

In the Summer of 2010, having recently escaped Hollywood, CA to take a much needed break from my profession as a film maker, I was driving in my car listening to a story on NPR. It seems the people in my new home of Murfreesboro, TN were up in arms over the proposed construction of a 53,000 square foot mega mosque, to be built in their small town in the middle of the American Bible Belt.

I listened carefully, to the sound bytes, of those who had shown up to a town hall meeting to voice their opposition and, as someone who was rather new to the South, I was surprised by what I was hearing. “America is a Christian nation and there is only one God and his name is not Allah and his son is Jesus Christ” and “America is a Christian Nation” and “These Muslims do not share my values and I don’t want them in my backyard”. Growing up in Southern California, I had never heard anything like this before in my life. And I started to follow the story with great interest.

On the outer edge of town, off a small country road, there was a large parcel of land, right next door to a Baptist church, with a big sign that read, “Future Home of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro”. Over the past 6 months that sign had been defaced twice. Once it was broken in half and another time the words “Not Welcome” were spray painted over it.

Rutherford County, which includes Murfreesboro, only has a little over 100,000 residents and yet the area boasts nearly 200 Christian churches. Having not been much of a fan of Islam or Christianity or religion in general (and that’s putting it mildly) I saw this as something of a David vs. Goliath story – with fanatical Evangelicals bullying a peaceful Muslim population, which had been in the community for over 30 years without there ever being any trouble. And, after learning that in July there was to be a big parade down Main Street to the town square, protesting the construction of this new mosque, I decided someone really needed to make a documentary about this. And even though I had gone to Murfreesboro to escape the film world for a while, it seemed pretty clear that if I did not document this in a movie, no one else would. I wanted to show the world what I was seeing. So I put together a small film crew and began production on a documentary I would title, “Not Welcome”.

I had never seen more American flags assembled together in one place than I had on that hot July morning as the anti-mosque crowd gathered at the base camp to prepare for the parade. Many of the marchers showed up wearing red, white and blue. I had 4 cameras covering the event with one crew embedded with the Liberal activists who were going to counter-demonstrate and the rest of the cameras with me, embedded with those who were to march against the mosque. I conducted several interviews in the school parking lot where locals and those who had driven for hours gathered, prepared to march against what they perceived to be not only a threat to their way of life, but also something of an insult given the events of September 11, 2001. Two Congressional candidates, both promising to “stop the Islamic training camp” showed up and used this opportunity to campaign, one of whom even gave a speech through a mega phone reminding folks to vote for him if they wanted to stop Sharia Law from coming to Murfreesboro. The pastor of Baptist church gathered everyone together in prayer, and the parade took off down Main Street with signs that read “Google the Koran” and “Stop Homegrown Terrorism” and someone in the crowd handed out hundreds of small Israeli flags as several hundred Southerners marched against the mosque.

About six months later I had accumulated over 300 hours of footage, interviewing the parade organizer, both Congressional candidates, the Mayor, the Imam at the mosque and several of its board members, numerous concerned residents on both sides of the issue, Muslim residents, city council members, a Christian Zionist lobbyist who was organizing the opposition to the mosque - and I had even filmed weeks of court proceedings, as a local group had filed suit against the County to stop them from issuing any construction permits to the Islamic Center. The court proceedings were truly a circus as a country lawyer in loud suit with a bow tie argued that Islam is not a religion and that he was prepared to take this matter to the Supreme Court if necessary. That legal action had failed and failed miserably. And although many of the townspeople did in fact have a number of very valid concerns, I felt that those whom they had chosen to represent them were not their best foot forward. In many ways, for the people of Murfreesboro, TN this turned out to be an international embarrassment – given the level of interest from the press.

Also, someone tried to set fire to some construction equipment at the site of the new mosque and the student activist group, calling themselves “Middle Tennesseans for Religious Freedom” put together a candle light vigil where hundreds of townspeople showed up in support of tolerance. A few young men showed up in a pickup truck and honked their horn repeatedly throughout the vigil. Their clothes seemed to indicate they had spent the work day hanging drywall. And when they put up a huge sign in the back of their truck which read “No Mosque” while misspelling the word mosque, I did not hesitate to film them but to also sort of taunt them, in order to provoke a good response on camera. And I got it. One of them said we should suspend the Constitution and went on to say that “All them Mooslums should be shipped home” even the ones who were born here.

Adding more fuel to that fire was an incident that took place when I attempted to interview Kevin Fisher at a Tea Party event on the town square. It was my opinion that in order to avoid accusations of being bigoted, the money interests (a Christian Zionist organization called Proclaiming Justice to the Nations) chose the only person of color, already involved in this issue, to lead the parade and to be a plaintiff in the lawsuit. Kevin Fisher was an African American college dropout, who worked as a prison guard and became a passionate opponent of the new mosque, after his wife divorced him and became, you guessed it, a Muslim convert. When I approached him on the square with a crew that included 4 cameras, saying only “Hi, Kevin” he dialed his cell phone and called 9-1-1 saying that he was being “racially harassed”. This not only made the headlines of the local paper but the incident, including audio from the 9-1-1 call was played over and over that night on the local evening news. This became something of a running joke, when I was recognized at the grocery store in Murfreesboro for instance, people would often point at me and say, “Hey, stop racially harassing me” and then we would all have a big laugh. And Islamic blogs such as Loonwatch.com were only too happy to run an article about how an opponent of the mosque was “playing the race card” against a filmmaker who was just trying to ask questions.

CNN breezed through town and produced a quick hit piece painting all of the mosque opponents as uneducated rednecks and the Islamic community as everyday people who were being wrongly persecuted. Soledad O’Brien’s producer offered to buy some of my footage from me with the explicit promise that their piece was going to be called “Islam: In America” and would not focus more than a few minutes on Murfreesboro. After an inside tip that this producer was lying to me, I confronted him and got some rather vague answers. So I declined to license him any of my material. And sure enough, the CNN documentary did in fact focus exclusively on Murfreesboro and was called “Unwelcome: The Muslims Next Door”. Somehow Hollywood, with its usual backstabbing tricks, had managed to find me hiding out in Tennessee.

I had accumulated a lot of good quality footage. That, combined with the increasing number of physical threats to me personally while filming in large crowds, and death threats that had arrived via email (causing me to look over my shoulder everywhere I went and making it necessary to spend a small fortune on private security) told me it was time. The writing was on the wall. It was time for me to leave Murfreesboro, hire a professional Editor and get to work on assembling my footage to create a feature length documentary for theatrical distribution.

Before I go any further, I should mention that, while all of this was happening, I had become involved in the story itself. I took sides. I sided with the Islamic community in their legal right to build a house of worship and when I was interviewed by the local papers (it’s not every day that a small town like this has someone shooting a documentary there) when I was asked where I stood on the issue I never hesitated to give my point of view. And after a time my point of view was sought out by larger newspapers and several local and syndicated radio programs – mostly Conservative and mostly taking issue with my stance. And I was also invited to write several pieces for Michael Moore’s blog as well.

Although I had left town to edit, there continued to be letters to the editor on a few of the local papers saying that I should leave TN and go back to where I came from. I could not believe the cartoonish way in which those who opposed the mosque were making their case. I felt like I was on the right side of this thing – absolutely certain. But in fact, I was wrong.

Everything I have told you up until now - this version of my story - is exactly how I was seeing things up until something changed. I went home to Los Angeles, showed my 25 minute short version of the documentary to some distributors and backers, and did the usual dog and pony show that had worked so well to raise funds, for other motion picture projects I had been involved with in the past. And sure enough someone said they would back the completion of the movie. It was decided that the focus would be on “the enemy at home” that being what we were calling “Apocalyptic Christianity” (as there was concern about using the word “Zionism” in “Christian Zionism”). The Murfreesboro issue was to be used as something of a jumping off point to take a look at the expanding influence of the End Times Evangelical lobby in the United States and how they use their influence to manufacture consent for the bombing of oil rich Islamic countries and to influence policy on social issues. The theme would focus on the problems we have in America, with our own religious lunatic fringe, rather than on a peaceful group of non-Christians who just wanted to build a place of worship.

After writing a few articles for Michael Moore, I also wrote for a liberal blog called Common Dreams and I wrote over a hundred articles for the Daily Kos, a liberal blog so popular that they receive over one million visitors a day. I felt I was protecting the underdog, going after the bullies. I really believed that I was on the right side of this thing.

But something kept nagging at me on a gut level. Something about all of this didn’t quite feel right. The Arab Spring, which I supported, started to degenerate into the Islamist Winter, and I grew more and more concerned. I flew back to Nashville to shoot a conference on whether or not Islam was conducive with Democratic Values and on the way to my hotel room I learned that my cab driver was from Egypt. I asked him how he felt about the fall of Mubarak, a dictator worth over $70 billion dollars while so much of his country was living in poverty and he told me he was concerned. Concerned? Wasn’t this good news? The cab driver was a Coptic Christian and he told me that he feared for his family back home. “If the Muslims take control, and they will, it will be very dangerous for my parents and my sisters. I’m scared for them right now”. After that conversation, I started to pay more attention to the news coming from the Islamic world in the Middle East.

Over the coming months I watched as the Muslim Brotherhood gained political power in Egypt. I saw that cab driver’s worst fears come true as Coptic Christians were attacked by Islamic mobs. I saw Tunisia institute Sharia, the brutal Islamic Law. After Libya fell, the Transitional Council also instituted Islamic Law. The nuclear armed Islamic government of Pakistan arrested and punished those who cooperated with the United States in killing Osama Bin Laden. A woman under the Islamic government of Afghanistan faced execution for the crime of being raped. Similar news stories emerged from Iran. A man who typed “there is no god” as his Facebook status in Indonesia, the largest Islamic country in the world, was arrested for blasphemy. Several Muslim men in England were arrested for handing out leaflets to Londoners demanding that homosexuals be executed by hanging for violating Islamic Law with their lifestyle.

And it struck me. Even though these angry townspeople in Mufreesboro, TN had not articulated their concerns very well, they were only half wrong. I remember meeting Frank Gaffney and interviewing him in front of the courthouse and asking him if he really thought that the peaceful Muslims here actually presented a real threat to America and he said no. That caught me off guard so I asked if he really thought it was a credible threat that a community that makes up about one percent of the United States population was just going to suddenly rise up one day and try to take over the country and force Sharia Law onto all of us. Again he said no. Then he told me I was asking the wrong questions. He suggested that I was only looking for answers that would support the conclusions I had already arrived at. He said he had, after much research, arrived at a different set of conclusions and he challenged me to look a little deeper. He gave me a report to look at and many, many months later I did look at his report.

It was at this time that I went to my backers and told them that we were not making an honest documentary. I felt that everything I had put into the 25 minute short version (the one I used to raise the completion funds) was true, but only half true. It was critical that we also show the very real threats that exist within Islam. We needed to show that what is happening to these small communities of peaceful Muslims in America were the exception to the rule. I wanted to show what happens to countries when they gain a Muslim majority, how women are treated, that homosexuals were executed, that free speech did not exist, that the forced Islamic Law was not consistent with Democratic Values – anything and everything I could think of that ought to strike a chord with the Liberal mindset. And the response I received was, “Eric you are starting to sound like an Islamophobe. We don’t want to make a movie that promotes fear. Let’s just stick with the existing plan, okay?”

I fought and I fought. I showed them a book called “The Truth About Mohammed” but was struck down since the author was a man named Robert Spencer and my backers pointed out that the Southern Poverty Law Center named his “Jihad Watch” site as part of a hate group. I asked them to watch a documentary called “Islam: What the West Needs to Know” and pointed out that I had researched independently and verified the truth of what was being presented there, but they would not even watch this documentary as they were sure in advance that it was “hate speech” and “propaganda designed to spread fear”. It probably goes without saying that by now I was very frustrated. I showed my new backers several verses from the Koran that call for the killing of infidels and was told that these verses were probably being taken out of context. I showed them a video clip from MEMRI TV of a young Egyptian child reciting a Hadith that calls for the killing of Jews and was told that “you can’t trust MEMRI because they have an agenda”.

I mentioned the popular Islamophobia watchdog site “Loonwatch” and how I had noticed a pattern of deflecting all criticisms of radical and violent Islam by calling anyone who publicly raises these concerns a “Loon” and how I felt this was an intentional effort to provide a smoke screen for the terrorists. I also noted that everything Loonwatch said was in lockstep with the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) and how CAIR was named an unindicted co-conspirator in the prosecution of the Holy Land Foundation – the largest Islamic charity at one time, which was found to be funneling monies to Islamic terrorist organizations. I also noted that CAIR had ties to both Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood and that Al Qeada had come out of the Muslim Brotherhood. I expressed my concerns that the Egyptian Imam of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro might have ties to the MB, something I had failed to properly investigate. But since CAIR had the support of Glenn Greenwald and Amy Goodman’s show, Democracy Now, I was told that I had my facts all wrong. It was also pointed out to me that if CAIR was allegedly some kind of terrorist front then why do they still have a special tax status and why are they still around? When I said I do not know but it was possible that the government might prefer to watch them out in the open rather than risk them going underground I was told that my judgment was sounding less and less clear and that maybe I needed to take a step back from the project for a while.

As a last attempt I showed them footage of the Imam in Murfreesboro condoning stoning, admitting that Mohammed had stoned someone to death, saying that women cannot be trusted with money because they are irrational. Then I pointed out that a board member of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro was investigated after pictures from his MySpace page had surfaced indicating his strong sympathies for Hamas. I was reminded that Hamas was also a political party which was voted in Democratically and that I needed to make a choice – either stick with the original blueprint or else give the money back and go find myself another backer. So I did. I walked. If I can’t make an honest documentary then I’m in the wrong business. I didn’t want to add to more of the noise that’s out there – I wanted to make something that told the truth, even if that truth is hard to swallow.

It’s funny because I run a website called Global One TV, which has had about 23 million visitors so far, and the theme of this blog is that “Inward Revolution Creates Outward Revolution”. And here I was, having to take my own medicine. My own inward revolution – the questioning of one’s conclusions in search of a deeper truth – had lead me to a very strange place. I thought of the famous Nietzsche quote that says “When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you”. And with nothing left to lose, I used my position at Daily Kos to go about telling the truth.

In January of 2012 I wrote 3 consecutive articles for the Daily Kos. The first was entitled “Loowatch.com and Radical Islam”. Here I pointed out the how Loonwatch only deflects criticism of radical Islam. I was also critical of Islamic theology while noting over and over that most Muslims were peaceful. The comments section of Daily Kos made me feel like I was attending my own funeral. It was like a public stoning. There wasn’t much in the way of responding to any of the points laid out in my article but hundreds of comments accusing me of being “right wing” a “bigot” and an “lslamophobe”. This was disappointing.

The next day I received an email from Loonwatch.com with an article showing my name and a photograph of my face, going out to much of the Islamic world, calling me the “Loon at Large”. This article was picked up by IslamophobiaToday.com and TheAmericanMuslim.org – later being repurposed by numerous Islamic blogs around the world, including in places where we all know what happens to anyone who is perceived to be the enemy of Allah or who dares to “insult” Islam.

My next article sought to further substantiate my point with regard to these wolves in sheep’s clothing calling themselves “Islamophobia Watchdog sites” and their first line of defense, that being a blogosphere of liberal lemming infidels who are pre-programmed to blurt out the word “Islamophobe” on cue. That article was called “How and Why Loonwatch is a Terrorist Spin Control Network”. And as you might have guessed, this piece was met with the same mob mentality of those who, rather than read the article and criticize it on its merits, instead shot the messenger with charges of “Islamophobia”. There were also 2 Daily Kos articles written in response attacking me personally, another Loonwatch article where someone suggested I must be from TN and have no education, etc. And once again, my name was put out on the street through a network of Islamic Blogs, including the landing page for CAIR, using a form of Islamic double speak which translated to any serious Jihadist means “enemy of Allah” and “insulting Islam”.

Given the incredible density of the popular Liberal mind, how the readers of my articles were unable to see how their beliefs of Islam were in direct conflict with human rights, gay rights, women’s rights and basic Democratic Values, I wrote a final piece called, “Are You In Favor of Human Rights?” and that one of course got me banned from Daily Kos. It should be noted that in one of the Loonwatch.com articles the author, a person simply calling himself “Danios” demanded that DKOS silence me and provided a link for its readers to email the editors of the Daily Kos, demanding that this “Islamophobe” be censored. And it worked – once again proving the oil and water relationship between Islam and tolerance for free speech.

Things got even stranger from there. Robert Spencer himself wrote me an email and we had a rather interesting dialogue. It became apparent almost immediately that there was nothing about this man that was even remotely hateful. So when Robert Spencer asked if I minded if he reprint my email in response to his on Jihad Watch, I said “sure, why not?” Once that surfaced, the friend count on my Facebook fan page dropped suddenly. Friends and acquaintances told me I had become a hatemonger, a fear monger and an Islamophobe. I pointed out that an Islamophobe is someone with an irrational fear of Islam but there was no reasoning with anyone so deeply indoctrinated into the tyranny of political correctness.

And almost right on cue the news story broke about the NYPD using as a training video a documentary narrated by a devout Muslim who opposes terrorism and jihad, someone who has advised law enforcement and served in the military and as a physician to highly placed members of the United States government. That documentary was called “The Third Jihad” and the story surfaced that CAIR was calling this film “Islamophobic” and demanding that the NYPD pull it right away, which of course they did. CAIR demanded the removal of the head of the NYPD and the liberal blogosphere sang backup – most notably with articles on Huffington Post calling “The Third Jihad” propaganda, hate speech and of course more “Islamophobia”. When I posted a link to this documentary on my Facebook page I was met with more charges of being an Islamophobe by people who had only recently told me how much they had been inspired and influenced by my writings.

After Jamie Glasov of FrontPage Mag – part of the David Horowitz Freedom Center – reached out to me to ask me to be on his radio show (which I agreed to) I surfed the web a bit trying to get a better sense of who exactly David Hororwitz was. It became clear almost immediately that we do not share the same political views, but one thing Horowitz did say that came through with stunning clarity was an assertion that there was an unholy alliance between the Left and Islam, with radical Islam using the Liberal media to create a smoke screen for it – a place where radical can appear moderate and receive Liberal support. He also went on to say that in many Universities across America that students were being radicalized, indoctrinated into the far Left. And I remembered something. Nearly all of the organizers for the college aged activist group who demonstrated in favor of the new mosque in Murfreesboro were either Socialists or Communists. These were kids and they all seemed to share one Professor in particular who was something of a mentor to them, a Socialist who always seemed to be hanging around their college parties, infiltrating into their social scene, taking the smarter and more articulate ones under his wing as their campus group called simply “Solidarity” grew in numbers – in fact recruiting quite a few students while organizing in favor of the mosque. Yikes.

So here we are today, as news that Kuwait goes Islamist and the NYPD answers to CAIR, an arm of a terrorist organization, out of concern for political correctness. Have I become a Conservative out of all of this? Not really. I still oppose the invasion of Iraq. I still feel that all wars should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. I still think that George W. Bush was one of the worst things to happen to America in my lifetime. I still support marriage equality. But I’m also still pro-life. Do you see a trend here? I support human rights and oppose anything which I perceive to be in violation of human rights.

Where do I stand on Islam? Let’s look at its founder – a man who raped a 9 year old girl, a slave owner, a leader who ordered people to be tortured, for adulterers to be stoned, for countless nonbelievers to be beheaded, a killer, a warmonger who spread his “religion of peace” by the sword, a man who suffered from hallucinations of voices telling him to do violent things, a tyrant, a homicidal maniac perhaps the equivalent of 100,000 Osama Bin Ladens. And this sadistic lunatic is considered to be the “ideal man” in Islam. What more needs to be said about Islam than that?

So in this climate where innocent people are killed when Korans are burned, when there are riots and bomb threats and killings over cartoons that offend Muslims, when a novelist such as Salman Rushdie is advised by Indian intelligence authorities that it is unsafe for him to enter the country to attend the world’s largest literary festival, when Muslims outside the festival threaten violence such that the festival organizers decide to cancel even patching in a video of Rushdie for the conference, in a world where a man, Theo Van Gough, was shot a couple dozen times in broad daylight, then stabbed, then had a sword rammed into his heart on the sidewalk of a European street simply for making a 10 minute film about the mistreatment of Muslim women – in such a world that is constantly terrorized by Islamic militants whose insanity is co-opted by an army of Liberal bloggers who make excuses for them – who tell us that 911 was probably our fault - what will become of my documentary when I finish it?

How will “Not Welcome” be received? Will movie theaters refuse to show it, just like those many bookstores who removed the Danish cartoons from their shelves? Will film festivals be afraid to screen it? Will my life be in danger? Will some lunatic Islamic cleric issue a Fatwa ordering my death? Will CAIR gain even more political influence and work within the system to get it banned as “hate speech”? Will critics fear for their lives and thus refuse to review it?

Is the Liberal view that Stealth Jihad is just some whacky conspiracy theory really true? Who will win – free speech of the savagery of a growing mob hell bent on Jihad? I can only tell you this. I will not back down. I will not be bullied, threatened, coerced or terrorized by the “religion of peace”.

We each have a responsibility to the other people on this planet, and especially to those whom we will leave this planet to after we are gone. And this sometimes means taking an unpopular stand in order to protect the rights of innocent people. Loonwatch, CAIR and the other numerous terrorist spin control networks – you’ve not seen the end of me. Not by a long shot. As the saying goes, “You have a right to swing your fists, but that right ends when your fist connects with my nose”.

And by the way, I still believe that unless they break the law, the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro has a legal right to build their house of worship *. We don’t have to like it, but then again the First Amendment was designed not to protect popular ideas – as they don’t need protecting – but to protect unpopular ideas as well. This is something you won’t find in any Islamic country and it is also something worth protecting - even when the so-called “religion of peace” tries to shut you down.

Peace,

Eric Allen Bell

Eric@BellMedia.org

* I have since changed my point of view with regard to the mosque. Read:



The Mufrfreesboro Mosque: Built on a Foundation of Lies

and

Is Hamas Building a 53,000 Square Foot Facility in America?




http://www.globalinfidel.tv/profiles/blogs/high-price-of-telling-the-t
ruth-about-islam

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:30 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


So what was the 'high price' this author paid? Not being able to write articles for the Daily Kos anymore? Losing some of his facebook friends?

What a drama queen.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
So what was the 'high price' this author paid? Not being able to write articles for the Daily Kos anymore? Losing some of his facebook friends?

What a drama queen.

It's not personal. It's just war.


yeah. a drama queen.

If that's all you got out of reading this, then you're missing the point.

The writer goes into thoughtful detail of how he started on one side of the issue, and the more he looked into it, came to see something else.

Pity you can't evolve in like manner.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:46 PM

BYTEMITE


It's a classic example of not being able to separate issues. His looking deeper was actually getting more off topic from the story he was trying to tell. The Muslims here in America, as he observed and which other people he talked to and which he repeated in his article, really aren't any kind of worry, and the treatment they get is not justifiable.

The reason his backers wanted to pull their money was not because they didn't want him to tell the truth, but because he was getting off on a tangent about the middle east, putting the production into development limbo, and wasting their money.

If he wanted to, he could have produced his documentary then gone and produced another documentary about the truth in the middle east, and then we would have gotten two documentaries, not none. But apparently he has ADHD and lacks focus, and made it into a big deal like something scary happened to him to change his mind and that his viewpoint was being silenced.

Whatever man. If you think your viewpoint is being silenced, go join one of those anti-Mosque protest crowds already.

Also, this post made me have a nice long email conversation with my Muslim friend who went to Japan.

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:50 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What Byte said.


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Saturday, June 23, 2012 2:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



It's curious at the lengths to which you go to ignore the point being made, but as you say...what ever, man.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 2:40 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
yeah. a drama queen.

If that's all you got out of reading this, then you're missing the point.

I was just starting with the title. I did have more criticisms (I read the whole thing, it was interesting) to add when I had more time, but I think Byte has already nailed it.

Quote:
Pity you can't evolve in like manner.

I have no desire to 'evolve' into a conspiracy-mad Islamophobe ("Is Hamas Building a 53,000 Square Foot Facility in America???"). But good for you to have another in your ranks.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 2:46 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
It's curious at the lengths to which you go to ignore the point being made

Not 'ignore', but: 'refuse to conflate with a completely different point'. As Byte said, he could have made a completely separate documentary about his Islamophobic awakening. Instead he tried to treat it as two sides of the same coin... but it's two different coins.

Your corrected sentence reads:

"It's curious the lengths you go to refuse to conflate the point with a completely different one..."


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 3:29 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's curious at the lengths to which you go to ignore the point being made, but as you say...what ever, man.




Well how about you ARTICULATE and i mean in your words, not someone else's what you think about the piece and what you agree with, so that we can have a discussion.

I understand where this man is coming from, but frankly I feel pretty much the same about all religions. There may be peace, love and smurfs on the surface, but underneath are the ancient and viscous views on life and humanity, where punishments are harsh and tolerance for others is low. I recently read an article on the Salvation Army where they admitted that gays deserved death because it said so in the Bible.

In many religious texts there is what I consider to be the ugliness of intolerance and tolerance of viscousness. But I know plenty of people of different religions who choose to ignore those aspects of ancient texts and focus on community, spirituality and the more compassionate words that have been written. It makes me feel like something a bit screwy is going on, but live and let live, I say.

if people want to practice their religion where and whenever, then they can do so, as long as they do so peaceable and with respect for others who do not hold their views. If they step over those lines, I condemn them, regardless of the name of the faith.

The issue for me is who was stepping over that line in that town. Who do you think?

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Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:09 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.


Hey Magons, if that article about the Salvation Army you mentioned is online, would you mind posting up the link? I'd love to show it to my friends who get all indignant when I refuse to give the SA money when they're out collecting money during the Christmas season.

Socialist and unashamed.


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Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rappy, son, before you ever even knew Islam existed I was against funding the mujahideen... no matter that they "said" they were anti-Communist.

Saudi Arabia, our best buddy in the ME, has been funding radical Islamic madrassas for decades. Hell, I remember reading about it when I was a teenager (Horn of Africa) and that was a long time ago! And Pakistan (our secret mideast lover) has been funding the Taliban for about as long. You might also recall I was against invading Iraq... one of the sole bastions of secularism in the ME. Likewise, not real crazy about toppling Qaddafi either, another secular nation. The reality is that our State Department really doesn't mind dealing with religious nutcase regimes, as long as they promise to accept US dollars and IMF loans and sell us cheap oil. In fact, they prefer dealing with ANY corrupt regime, and most religious regimes areas corrupt as they come.

Deal with it. Or go argue with our gubmint about funding our enemies with our tax dollars so that ExxonMobil can get a bigger profit. That is the reality of the day.

You may as well title your thread "The High Cost of Oil" and be done with it.

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 12:07 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by Cuda77:
Hey Magons, if that article about the Salvation Army you mentioned is online, would you mind posting up the link? I'd love to show it to my friends who get all indignant when I refuse to give the SA money when they're out collecting money during the Christmas season.

Socialist and unashamed.

]

http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2012/06/26448/

The organisation has since apologised.

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 12:08 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Rappy, son, before you ever even knew Islam existed I was against funding the mujahideen... no matter that they "said" they were anti-Communist.

Saudi Arabia, our best buddy in the ME, has been funding radical Islamic madrassas for decades. Hell, I remember reading about it when I was a teenager (Horn of Africa) and that was a long time ago! And Pakistan (our secret mideast lover) has been funding the Taliban for about as long. You might also recall I was against invading Iraq... one of the sole bastions of secularism in the ME. Likewise, not real crazy about toppling Qaddafi either, another secular nation. The reality is that our State Department really doesn't mind dealing with religious nutcase regimes, as long as they promise to accept US dollars and IMF loans and sell us cheap oil. In fact, they prefer dealing with ANY corrupt regime, and most religious regimes areas corrupt as they come.

Deal with it. Or go argue with our gubmint about funding our enemies with our tax dollars so that ExxonMobil can get a bigger profit. That is the reality of the day.

You may as well title your thread "The High Cost of Oil" and be done with it.


^ what signy says

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 2:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I understand where this man is coming from, but frankly I feel pretty much the same about all religions...


Not "all religions" have the recent track record of violence as radical Islam, and on a global scale.

And to be honest, it's not even close. Sorry, but when I hear folks come back with the, " ALL RELIGIONS are like this, blah blah blah..." rant, I tune out. All I hear is the Left's unyielding desire to try to make EVERYONE , everything, 'equal', no matter what. Not only equality of outcomes, but also equality of blame, for any conflict. This is a major flaw in the thought process of how some think.

Yes, to some extent, they are, but only radical Islam , as it's being widely practiced today, teaches that non believers must be turned, taxed, or killed.

Also...

Quote:
The reality is that our State Department really doesn't mind dealing with religious nutcase regimes, as long as they promise to accept US dollars and IMF loans and sell us cheap oil. In fact, they prefer dealing with ANY corrupt regime, and most religious regimes areas corrupt as they come.


It doesn't seem who matter who the President is, the State Dept has always baffled me, in how it views the world. They're like their own little govt, going about things in a way which seems counter to both what the Left or Right wants. Even when a new Secretary is put in place, the body of the agency seems to just go along, about its business, what ever the hell that is. Seldom, it seems to me, that the State Dept ever has the best interest of the United States in mind with regards to how its policies are developed.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:30 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Yes, to some extent, they are, but only radical Islam , as it's being widely practiced today, teaches that non believers must be turned, taxed, or killed.



Thing is, it's not "only" Islam. You know this, yet as you say, you like to "tune out" whenever the truth is mentioned.

http://www.samesame.com.au/news/local/8583/Salvos-apologise-for-put-ga
ys-to-death-quote.htm



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 6:02 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Not only equality of outcomes, but also equality of blame, for any conflict. This is a major flaw in the thought process of how some think.


Well YEAH. I blame everyone for everything without qualification, including myself. Whether we're bystanders, or just shortsighted, or if we actively pushed some issue to it's breaking point, we've all got a responsibility.

People are pretty easy to understand, if you push them, they push back. If you can't figure out HOW you pushed them, you're not trying hard enough. If someone is telling you that you have no fault or blame in any of the problems in the world, they're just trying to get elected.

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 6:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Not only equality of outcomes, but also equality of blame, for any conflict. This is a major flaw in the thought process of how some think.


Well YEAH. I blame everyone for everything without qualification, including myself. Whether we're bystanders, or just shortsighted, or if we actively pushed some issue to it's breaking point, we've all got a responsibility.

People are pretty easy to understand, if you push them, they push back. If you can't figure out HOW you pushed them, you're not trying hard enough. If someone is telling you that you have no fault or blame in any of the problems in the world, they're just trying to get elected.


Sometimes folks aren't being pushed, but still want to blame their failures on others. They resent the success of their neighbors and falsely think their own problems stem from the other guy doing well.

It's like Saruman, in LOTR. He stirred up hatred in the men of the Wild to go to war against Rohan, not out of any real, new injustices the Rohirrim had done, but because Saruman NEEDED a bunch of angry folks to fight his battle for him. It's a common theme from history which Tolkien taps into.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 7:18 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"You may as well title your thread "The High Cost of Oil" and be done with it."

Ouch. Yes.

There are some other factors however, notably Israel.

The US has to follow a completely crooked path in the Middle East. On the one hand it has to stay friendly with oil-producing nations. On the other hand it has to support Israel. On the third had it has to oppose anything resembling socialism. The one way to accomplish this is to support dictators, b/c they are the only ones who can guarantee trade under favorable conditions. This support is through the sale of arms, but also through trade agreements, and diplomatic favor.

Generally the US will not tolerate, and will not allow its dictators to tolerate, anything resembling a socialist opposition. That leaves radical Islam as the only organized opposition to corruption, 'the West' and Israel's brutality. Once the dictators fall, these organizations fill the void.

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 7:50 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
They resent the success of their neighbors and falsely think their own problems stem from the other guy doing well.


While I can see your Saruman thing with the religious leaders that drive believers into these fights, I'm not really sure at all it has anything to do with them being JEALOUS of us.

That's the explanation you're going with? Really? Jealousy. Not even fanaticism or zealotry?

Okay, so why are they jealous of us infidels who are going to burn in hell?

Not even getting into the point that it's difficult to drive someone into a frenzy without the list of real or perceived injuries and grievances not having SOME kernel of truth. The men of dunland were driven to anger over a land dispute thousands of years ago - to us, this seems silly, but to people who live off the land, this can be far more serious than we can understand.

But even that is seriously simplifying a very complicated situation, where people have died on both sides and brought the conflict to a fever pitch.

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Sunday, June 24, 2012 8:05 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.









I saw an interesting video of this, where the soldier went after the small boy for waving a flag during the Jerusalem Day parade:

MOST interesting were the bloodthirsty comments written by Israelis in the publication, every single one stated either that the boy should have been killed, or that Palestinians should be exterminated, or both. I'm in the process of retrieving that link so everyone can see for themselves.

What it tells me is that radical Jews are just as violent as radical Muslims. Not that little Rappy would care, b/c, in what passes for his mind, it's only a problem when Muslims act that way.


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Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:59 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:


Not "all religions" have the recent track record of violence as radical Islam, and on a global scale.

And to be honest, it's not even close. Sorry, but when I hear folks come back with the, " ALL RELIGIONS are like this, blah blah blah..." rant, I tune out. All I hear is the Left's unyielding desire to try to make EVERYONE , everything, 'equal', no matter what. Not only equality of outcomes, but also equality of blame, for any conflict. This is a major flaw in the thought process of how some think.

Yes, to some extent, they are, but only radical Islam , as it's being widely practiced today, teaches that non believers must be turned, taxed, or killed.

Also...



yes, I get that you tune out, because you constantly miss what is being said and misinterpret posts.

If you actually read my post, and saw that I agreed with signy re the funding of fundamentalist Islamic regimes and organisations, and if you have read any of my earlier posts on this topic, you might actually understand that I acknowledge and am concerned re the growth of fundamentalism in the Islamic world.

I dispute that by its nature Islam is any more violent than any other religion, there is nothing written in its texts that is worse in nature than anything written in the Bible. The issue is that the doctrine of most religions is based on ancient tribal laws which were harsh, punitive and as far as we are concerned today, backward in their attitudes towards women and gays etc. When religions tip towards fundamentalism, they focus on doctrine rather than spirituality, as far as I can see.

You will also notice that I did not condemn or condone the building of the mosque. My understanding of US laws is that freedom of speech means that you cannot prohibit people or organisations from conducting their business because others find what they say is abhorrent. Hence Westboro may continue to harrass mourners at funerals because of some odd connection they have made with war and homosexuality.

With this in mind, unless the Iman is found guilty of some sort of terrorism, then he and his followers should be allowed to worship their god, with their crazy beliefs like anyone else. Doesn't stop anyone from objecting or protesting about them.


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Monday, June 25, 2012 11:59 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"200 comments, most calling for IDF (Israel Defense Forces) soldiers to kill children. Congratulations, you’re a light unto the nations."


Ah yes, here is the link where an Israeli soldier chases a young boy watching a parade; soldier with murderous rage on his face and gun in hand ...

http://972mag.com/armed-border-officer-chases-10-year-old-palestinian-
boy-for-holding-flag/46412/



... the video ...



... the comments ...

Some of the comments are a bit funny, in a sad way – like the comment from Geffen Cnaani, a woman in her 20s who works for a medical care provider, who writes (my translation from the Hebrew):

Stinking leftists instead of saying thank you to the soldier who did e-x-a-c-t-l-y what he was supposed to do, you’re trying to change the story?! It’s simply a disgrace that willfully ignorant people live in our country… You should appreciate a soldier like that who acts bravely in the face of the cruelest enemy we have, may the names of all Arabs be wiped out!! And respect to the dedicated soldier..!

Yehuda Daniel, an ultra-Orthodox yeshiva student, writes (with a few spelling mistakes in the holy tongue):

In my opinion at every event there should be a group of people who break cameras. If you see a camera, break it at some point so that the leftists will stop bringing expensive cameras – and then they’ll photograph more general shots (because of the lack of technology) – every camera costs tens of thousands of shekels – I doubt that journalists will be happy if someone breaks their camera every time. :-) (Daniel’s idea received two thumbs up – LG).

Asaf Cohen, a 27 year-old who is studying to be a car mechanic, writes:

They should’ve broken his legs so he couldn’t walk anymore, and then they should’ve broken the legs of the leftists with cameras.

Raz Melamed, who seems to be in his 20s, writes:

I’m not a leftist, I also don’t agree with “burning leftists and Arabs,” but it’s funny that you curse the Arabs and say they should be killed while using [Arabic] words like ‘yalla,’ ‘kus umak,’ and ‘in’al.’

As of this writing, the last response belongs to Amitai Ben-Abba:

200 comments, most calling for IDF soldiers to kill children. Congratulations, you’re a light unto the nations.

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Monday, June 25, 2012 7:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
You will also notice that I did not condemn or condone the building of the mosque. My understanding of US laws is that freedom of speech means that you cannot prohibit people or organisations from conducting their business because others find what they say is abhorrent. Hence Westboro may continue to harrass mourners at funerals because of some odd connection they have made with war and homosexuality.


You have to understand, Magons, that Rappy only operates on a simple lizard's brain. He does not understand complex issues or complex emotions. For Rappy's brain, if you are not 100% against a mosque being built, you may as well be building it yourself. If you are not 100% against Islam in all its forms, you are forcing Sharia law on an unsuspecting public.

He shares this trait with many on the right. Heck, I've been accused on this very site of defending Obama's Attorney General just because I wouldn't agree to a hasty conviction without any need for a trial! At one point, it was implied that I should kill myself if I didn't agree with that assessment; all I suggested was that maybe the accusers should, y'know, possibly maybe perhaps think about preparing to someday show a little evidence, if they had any.

Nope. Can't have that. You're with us, or your against us, and there can be no other choice.

That is the false logic that rules the world of Rappy and his lizard-brained right-wingers.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Saturday, June 30, 2012 10:17 PM

CATPIRATE


AU, the area of the south you were in is still real. Rednecks are self reliant were as the beach boys have to have things done for them.

My take on the Baptist. What I like about them is they are straight up. What I have read from them that there is no bridge to build with Islam. They are right. That was in Aug of 2001. Now 9/11 is still on. And ain't going away.

A Greek told me once where ever those minarets appear so does poverty. Just look at Cyprus. This religion is not tolerant because how they treat women. So they come to a tolerant country to use the laws against their host nation. We are 10 years from being like England. You get enough nut jobs then they want their religious laws as their court system. Just a matter of time. The South will the bastion of the Republic when civil war comes. The West Coast, Mass, and Chicago will be swallowed up by their naive ideals.

The future of the US might be the Jesus freaks saving the day with their guns and righteousness. Oh another thing Arabs are just as bigoted against blacks as everybody else.

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Saturday, June 30, 2012 10:53 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'd say there were no bridges to build be the Baptists then. Hope ALL the extreme religious nut jobs rot in their respective hells.

Hey good news for us, the number of australians who indicated 'no religion' has substantially increased to 22% according the last census.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Yes, to some extent, they are, but only radical Islam , as it's being widely practiced today, teaches that non believers must be turned, taxed, or killed.


Thing is, it's not "only" Islam. You know this, yet as you say, you like to "tune out" whenever the truth is mentioned.

http://www.samesame.com.au/news/local/8583/Salvos-apologise-for-put-ga
ys-to-death-quote.htm


Yes, it IS only Islam. When the hell have you heard any Mullah that he's 'sorry' for stoning a woman to death?

Seriously, talk about tuning out reality...

A lone, " local spokesperson " made these comments, and then quickly apologized. He was simply parroting what the New Testament translates as saying, and yes, blindly following along, as all good religious drones do. I get that. It's very bad. But spare me the ' same same' crap, as this is light years away from the institutional murder of women and gays that goes on in Islamic countries, TODAY.

This goes right back to my comment of how the Left plays the equivocation game, where some off hand comment by one person gets placed at the same level as the overt intolerance and murder of gays, women, and the 'non-believer'.

Truly unbelievable.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:32 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Human rights abuses happen all over the world, and are not restricted to any one religion or racial group

Article 18. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

On 27th of February 2002, in the Indian city of Godhra, Gujarat, a Muslim crowd attacked a train filled with Hindu activists, firing two cars, and killing 27 persons. The event triggered a violent spiral of religious revenge and four days later, 2,000 Muslims were killed, their houses, mosques and trades destroyed and hundreds of women raped and mutilated before the members of their families.

Later investigations revealed that the attacks had been planned and done with the mutual approval and collaboration of the local authorities.

Religious intolerance has been signaled in Afghanistan, Algeria, Brazil, Burundi, Colombia, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Liberia, Nigeria, many countries of the Middle East, Congo, Russia, Uganda, China (see the Muslims of Xinjiang) and others.


Article 5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Torture is a common practice in Brazil and the violence in prisons is common and with tragic consequences. At the end of May 2002, 20 convicted and a guardian died during a revolt in the prison of maximum security of Manaus. The imprisoned protested against the tortures and the subsequent killing of an inmate and against the overpopulation and the inhuman life conditions in the prison.

In January 2002, 27 prisoners were assassinated during a revolt in the prison of Oso Blanco (the Amazonian state of Rondonia). The victims were stabbed, shot, hung or tossed from the roof by inmates belonging to rival bands.

The more recent episodes of Abu Graib are too fresh in our minds...

These infringements have also been signaled in Angola, Argentina, US, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Iran, Peru, Congo, Dominican Republic, South Africa, Russia, Turkey, Tunisia, Vietnam and other countries.


Article 4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude;
slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

For 18 years, LRA (Lord Resistance Army) guerrilla from northern Uganda has been kidnapping boys to train them as soldiers and girls to turn them in sexual slaves of the commanders. In 2002, the number of children found in the power of LRA was of 20,000.

Slavery has been also signaled in Albania, Saudi Arabia, Belarus, Myanmar, Brazil, Cambodia, Colombia, Georgia, Kirghistan, Sudan, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Turkey, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Vietnam and other countries.


Article 13.(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

After the fire cease between the government of Angola and UNITA in 2001, the number of people experiencing hunger reached 2 millions. 4.5 million people were refugees. The harassment and extortion amongst refugees is common, just like rapes.

This violation is also signaled in Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Cambodia, Colombia, ex-Yugoslavia, India, Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan, Congo, Uganda ...The Darfour case of Sudan is much too famous.


Article 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

15 journalists were killed and 68 experienced violent attacks in turbid circumstances for having denounced the corruption and abuses of the Russian Army in Chechnya. The special correspondent of "Novaia Gazeta" in the Caucasian republic was "invited" in 2002 to leave the country.

Infringement of the freedom of speech and media, and killed/attacked journalists have been also signaled in Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Cuba, Kenya, Sudan, Panama, Macedonia, Turkey, Ukraine, Iran, Pakistan, Tunisia, Vietnam, China ...


Article 3. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

The Vietnamese authorities adopted an increasingly severe attitude towards the so-called 'groups of high risk behavior for contracting HIV', like drug addicted and prostitutes, qualified as "social demons". At least 75,000 drug dependent persons were detained in 71 overpopulated rehab camps in 2002.

Similar situations have been signaled in Belarus, Brazil, China, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, India, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Pakistan, Congo, Russia, Ukraine, Zambia...

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Top-6-The-Most-Severe-Human-Right-Viola
tions-Around-the-World-63112.shtml

The world is a crappy place, made somewhat crappier by the creation of scapegoats. A few years ago it was the commies, now its Islam. America has to have someone to hate,

Here is an article on the struggle within Islam to counter the influence and perception of fanaticism within the faith.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/The-Struggle-Within-Islam.
html

Sorry rappy, it is more than 3 lines long and has no video attached, so you may struggle to comprehend.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The only thing which is a struggle to comprehend is why you flood the issue with irrelevant and peripheral topics.

You're going full out of your way to not deal w/ the issue as is, and instead trying to drown out the discussion in a sea of noise.

Yeah, bad things abound on this planet. Lots of people suck. That's NOT the issue here.

And if you think blaming communists for the crimes they committed, or pointing out the true dangers of radical islam is making 'scapegoats' out of anyone, then your head is shoved so firmly into the dark, there's no point of trying to have a rational exchange w/ you, at all.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 4:48 AM

AGENTROUKA


Has anyone here disputed, though, that radical Islam sucks? Because it does. Radical anything is bad.

There is no contradiction to this in asserting that not all of Islam is radical or militant. Or that other religions/ideologies, when radicalized, become dangerous and oppressive. Attacking Islam is not the answer, Attacking fanaticism is.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 7:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Has anyone here disputed, though, that radical Islam sucks? Because it does. Radical anything is bad.

There is no contradiction to this in asserting that not all of Islam is radical or militant. Or that other religions/ideologies, when radicalized, become dangerous and oppressive. Attacking Islam is not the answer, Attacking fanaticism is.


Radical Buddhists didn't fly any jet planes into sky scrapers.

Radical Baptists didn't kill 350 school children in Beslan, Russia.

Radical Jews didn't go on a shooting spree in Mumbai

Radical Scientiologists didn't blow up tourists in Bali.

Radical Wiccans didn't murder Theo Van Gogh

Radical Methodist didn't blow up 1500 year old statues of Buddha.

Radical Hindus didn't murder Olympic athletes in the '72 Summer games.

I could go on all day, but I doubt the message could be made any more clear. There is one and only one religion which follows the word " radical " in each and every one of those examples.

Either you get it, or you don't.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 7:46 AM

AGENTROUKA


Interesting tactic.

I'm pretty sure racidal christians/jews/hindus/pastafarians/whatevers have all been guilty of crimes, just not the ones you listed.

I'm also pretty sure that most of the ones you did list were policitally motivated, with radicalized religion being only an aspect, not the cause of the crime. You don't seriously allege that the children of Beslan were murdered because Islam said so, do you? Or that it was Islam that motivated the tragedy at the '72 olympics? Or that Islam and Islam only caused 9/11?

There was a political aim to most of the things you list. Take religion out and the political aim remains. Terrorists come in all faiths. The fact that such a large number of politically motivated terrorists these days are also islamists has a complex set of historical causes that are also mainly political. It's an unholy alliance between political anger and religious identity. This, too, is not really caused by Islam.

There are radical islamists in the world and they cause harm. It's a real problem. But there are also MORE peaceful muslim people in the world, which contradicts your (apparent) assertion that Islam itself is a cause of terrorism. That's a fact you seem to ignore.



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Sunday, July 1, 2012 7:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



So, it's just dumb luck that the most violent acts committed, world wide, just HAPPEN to involve Muslims ? That such things are more based in politics, and it just HAPPENS that it's Muslims involved ?

Wow.

" Terrorists come in all faiths. "

No duh. Never denied that for a moment. But by in large, THE MOST violent attacks seem to be carried out in the name of ONE particular religion.

You seem to not want to acknowledge that. For what ever reason.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 8:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Has anyone here disputed, though, that radical Islam sucks? Because it does. Radical anything is bad.

There is no contradiction to this in asserting that not all of Islam is radical or militant. Or that other religions/ideologies, when radicalized, become dangerous and oppressive. Attacking Islam is not the answer, Attacking fanaticism is.


Radical Buddhists didn't fly any jet planes into sky scrapers.

Radical Baptists didn't kill 350 school children in Beslan, Russia.

Radical Jews didn't go on a shooting spree in Mumbai

Radical Scientiologists didn't blow up tourists in Bali.

Radical Wiccans didn't murder Theo Van Gogh

Radical Methodist didn't blow up 1500 year old statues of Buddha.

Radical Hindus didn't murder Olympic athletes in the '72 Summer games.

I could go on all day, but I doubt the message could be made any more clear. There is one and only one religion which follows the word " radical " in each and every one of those examples.

Either you get it, or you don't.




Radical Muslims didn't kill Dr. Geller in his church. There is only one and only one religion which follows that example.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 8:39 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

So, it's just dumb luck that the most violent acts committed, world wide, just HAPPEN to involve Muslims ? That such things are more based in politics, and it just HAPPENS that it's Muslims involved ?

Wow.

" Terrorists come in all faiths. "

No duh. Never denied that for a moment. But by in large, THE MOST violent attacks seem to be carried out in the name of ONE particular religion.

You seem to not want to acknowledge that. For what ever reason.





If only you could apply that same kind of logic to the global climate change issue. But for political reasons, you are unwilling to see facts.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 9:10 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Has anyone here disputed, though, that radical Islam sucks? Because it does. Radical anything is bad.

There is no contradiction to this in asserting that not all of Islam is radical or militant. Or that other religions/ideologies, when radicalized, become dangerous and oppressive. Attacking Islam is not the answer, Attacking fanaticism is.


Radical Buddhists didn't fly any jet planes into sky scrapers.

Radical Baptists didn't kill 350 school children in Beslan, Russia.

Radical Jews didn't go on a shooting spree in Mumbai

Radical Scientiologists didn't blow up tourists in Bali.

Radical Wiccans didn't murder Theo Van Gogh

Radical Methodist didn't blow up 1500 year old statues of Buddha.

Radical Hindus didn't murder Olympic athletes in the '72 Summer games.

I could go on all day, but I doubt the message could be made any more clear. There is one and only one religion which follows the word " radical " in each and every one of those examples.

Either you get it, or you don't.

The other thing they have in common is that most of them are Arabic peoples as well, and them what ain't was following an Arabic religion when they done doed it, so there's definitely a good reason to kill as many Arabs as possible as well. Good thing we're fighting two wars with 'em! Yay, more drone strikes = less Arabs = more freedom! Well it's true.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 10:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I'm fine with the Arab world. They gave us pyramids, pi, and lots of neat stuff before the Greeks or Romans came along. Islam? Not so much a fan.

And Kwickie ? Don't much care for agenda driven or FAKED science. It's sort of a pet peeve of mine.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 11:01 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


It's odd that you refuse to apply the same criteria to the rest of your life, such as your "news" and information sources. All agenda-driven, often FAKED, yet you are utterly blind to it.

Since you've shown yourself to be so far removed from reality in every other area of life, why should one assume you know what you're talking about when it comes to climate change?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 11:20 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
It's odd that you refuse to apply the same criteria to the rest of your life, such as your "news" and information sources. All agenda-driven, often FAKED, yet you are utterly blind to it.

Since you've shown yourself to be so far removed from reality in every other area of life, why should one assume you know what you're talking about when it comes to climate change?




Your words hold no validity, no meaning, at all. I may be far from YOUR reality , but not from actual reality. Big difference


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 11:48 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Has anyone here disputed, though, that radical Islam sucks? Because it does. Radical anything is bad.

There is no contradiction to this in asserting that not all of Islam is radical or militant. Or that other religions/ideologies, when radicalized, become dangerous and oppressive. Attacking Islam is not the answer, Attacking fanaticism is.


Yeah, that is the point I have been trying unsuccessfully to make. Rappy loves to dump on all Muslims - that is 23% of the world's population with their mixed cultures, ethnicities and denominations as being ALL fanatical terrorists.

Yes, much of the Muslim world holds different values to the USA. Yes, much of the rest of the world holds different values to the USA. Some Muslim values I dislike, some US values I dislike.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 11:53 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The only thing which is a struggle to comprehend is why you flood the issue with irrelevant and peripheral topics.

You're going full out of your way to not deal w/ the issue as is, and instead trying to drown out the discussion in a sea of noise.

Yeah, bad things abound on this planet. Lots of people suck. That's NOT the issue here.

And if you think blaming communists for the crimes they committed, or pointing out the true dangers of radical islam is making 'scapegoats' out of anyone, then your head is shoved so firmly into the dark, there's no point of trying to have a rational exchange w/ you, at all.


So you didn't read the second link. I thought as much.

It is the point that lots of people suck and you continue to focus on one group. That is the scapegoating. No-one condones the actions of terrorists. No-one here does anything other than condemn the practises of radical Islam, but only you are fool enough to be unable to distinguish 'radical' from Islam.

Never had a rational exchange with you yet, Rappy. But anytime you want to step up, feel free.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:03 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:
I'm fine with the Arab world.


Not here:


As it was mentioned - Muslims demand you know, Christians pray you will.
http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=50740&p=1
Because what Tebow does doesn't represent flying planes into tall buildings, in the name of his lord and savior. Or rape school children, shoot them in the back, and then blow them up. Or saw the heads off innocent men, women and children. Or give children little plastic 'keys to Paradise', and then force them to scamper across a mine field. Or stone to death women who get raped. Or hang gays for being 'gay'.
the religion that perpetuates nearly every terrorist act on the globe

here

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=49857
So spare me the faux indignation of what to call heartless murderers, who pray to Allah, hold up the qu'ran, want to instill Sharia Law, and love death more than we love life.


here

http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=45635&mid=
807749
It doesn't take a team of precogs to figure out the cast of bad folks over there. Drones taking out nests of al-Qaeda head men saves 1000's of lives and billions of dollars.
But when it comes down to it... a few civillians die, along w/ a bunch of bad guys
I got no problem with it, in the least.


I had literally thousands of hits on my search. But I have things too do. I think we all remember how unconcerned you were with the bombing deaths of tens of thousands of innocent brown skinned Middle Easterners at the hands of the US (who may or may not be Arabs per se), or with similar 'collateral damage' deaths from drones in the ME and elsewhere, how enthusiastically you supported torture of innocent brown-skinned people as a sacrifice to allay your god of fear, how often you castigated 'Muslims' and 'Islam' as the root of the worst evil in the world. And NOW you claim to have always been 'fine' with the Arab world.


Oh, BTW, yes indeedy, this gets added to your RapFacts™!

Oh, and I'm eagerly awaiting reading you claiming that you NEVER posted such things. The irony will be hysterically funny! So please, post away!




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Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I never posted such things, as you seem to think that Arabs = Muslims, exclusively and with out any distinction, what so ever.

They don't.

You're wrong.

I win. Again.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:47 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=52311&p=1#90260
9
"I never posted such things ..."

WOW! The MOTHERLOAD! THANKS!

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Radical Buddhists didn't fly any jet planes into sky scrapers.

Radical Baptists didn't kill 350 school children in Beslan, Russia.

Radical Jews didn't go on a shooting spree in Mumbai

Radical Scientiologists didn't blow up tourists in Bali.

Radical Wiccans didn't murder Theo Van Gogh

Radical Methodist didn't blow up 1500 year old statues of Buddha.

Radical Hindus didn't murder Olympic athletes in the '72 Summer games.

I could go on all day, but I doubt the message could be made any more clear. There is one and only one religion which follows the word " radical " in each and every one of those examples.
Radical Muslims didn't kill 100,000+ civilians in a "shock and awe*" campaign in a totally baseless "war of choice". If you're interested in the truth... and I know you're not... and if you are simply balancing the scales of dead on one side versus dead on the other, we are by far the worst terrorists in the world, bar none.

*"Shock and awe" by any definition is an act of terror, since it uses terror (shock and awe, fear and dread) in the form of relentless killing of civilians to attain a political goal (installing a regime more to our liking).
-------------

I had a funny moment when I went back East to help out with my aging mom. My uncle- a retired police sergeant (BTW his son, my cousin, is a high mucky-muck in ICE, so that part of the family is definitely well-establish in Homeland Security) - gave me a hug and asked me how I was doing and how airport security was. So I said, well, OK, except they're using back-scatter radiation now, and it's not like I need the extra radiation. And he laughed and said "Airport security, it's out of control" and as part of the same hug and ironic laugh, added "Al Qaida, they're gonna win". I have to say, I was shocked. Because even he, a small-town cop in bumfuck NY, realizes that our reaction to Al Qaida ... the money we have spent in feckless wars and "Homeland Security" and the rights we have given up in order to be ass-probed and monitored like never before ... has done more damage than anything Al Qaida could have hoped to inflict by themselves.

--------------

Oh, BTW KIKI, congrats on getting rappy to (once again) make a total shit-stain of himself. My god, you'd think the guy would learn!


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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:16 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=52311&p=1#90260
9
"I never posted such things ..."

WOW! The MOTHERLOAD! THANKS!



The premise of your position is 100 % false.

And the wars with Iraq had nothing to do with Christianity, so the 'shock and awe' nonsense is a complete non sequitur. Sorry Ackmed, you lose.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:24 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


So you do admit that 'shock and awe' is a terrorist tactic?

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:28 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Here's a country that backs up your views... how do you like that bedfellow?

Quote:


China has been accused by two US-based human rights groups of conducting a "crushing campaign of religious repression" against Muslim Uighurs.

It is being done in the name of anti-separatism and counter-terrorism, says a joint report by Human Rights Watch and Human Rights in China.

It is said to be taking place in the western Xinjiang region, where more than half the population is Uighur.

China has denied that it suppresses Islam in Xinjiang.

It says it only wants to stop the forces of separatism, terrorism and religious extremism in the region, which Uighur separatists call East Turkestan.

The report accuses China of "opportunistically using the post-11 September environment to make the outrageous claim that individuals disseminating peaceful religious and cultural messages in Xinjiang are terrorists who have simply changed tactics".

The authors of the report say it is based on previously undisclosed Communist Party and Chinese government documents, local regulations, press reports and local interviews.

The report says the systematic repression of religion in Xinjiang was continuing as "a matter of considered state policy".

Such repression ranges from vetting imams and closing mosques to executions and the detention of thousands of people every year, it claims.

"Religious regulation in Xinjiang is so pervasive that it creates a legal net that can catch just about anyone the authorities want to target," said Sharon Hom, Executive Director of Human Rights in China.

The report also reveals that almost half the detainees in Xinjiang's re-education camps are there for engaging in illegal religious activities.

Uighurs make up about eight million of the 19 million people in Xinjiang.

Many of them favour greater autonomy, and China views separatist sentiments as a threat to the state.


China can't tolerate values other than its own, either, it would seem. Thinking of migrating any time soon?

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
So you do admit that 'shock and awe' is a terrorist tactic?


It's not directed at a civilian population, but the effects can't be overlooked BY said population. It's war. It's attacking the command and control structure of the enemy. It's not an attack on the general population.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
And the wars with Iraq had nothing to do with Christianity, so the 'shock and awe' nonsense is a complete non sequitur.
So ONLY killing people in the name of religion counts? Therefore we shouldn't be upset if Obama were to decide to... say... drone-attack the leaders of the Tea Party? And if a whole bunch of innocent civilians get killed in the process (aside from the targets, that is) that doesn't count either because it wasn't "intended"?

Wow, you are an idiot. You've just voided any complaint that you might make about Obama, including so-called "death panels", because if it's not intended or done in the name of religion, clearly it's of no consequence.

Do you really intend for us to take you seriously? Clearly not; your arguments don't even pass logic 101. At this point, I just poke at you for fun, 'cause you get all exercised the spittle starts flying. I wonder if you'll run way from THIS thread TOO!

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 3:05 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
So you do admit that 'shock and awe' is a terrorist tactic?


It's not directed at a civilian population, but the effects can't be overlooked BY said population. It's war. It's attacking the command and control structure of the enemy. It's not an attack on the general population.



Quote:
Although Ullman and Wade claim that the need to "Minimize civilian casualties, loss of life, and collateral damage" is a "political sensitivity [which needs] to be understood up front", their doctrine of rapid dominance requires the capability to disrupt "means of communication, transportation, food production, water supply, and other aspects of infrastructure",[6] and, in practice, "the appropriate balance of Shock and Awe must cause ... the threat and fear of action that may shut down all or part of the adversary's society or render his ability to fight useless short of complete physical destruction."[7]

Using as an example a theoretical invasion of Iraq 20 years after Operation Desert Storm, the authors claimed, "Shutting the country down would entail both the physical destruction of appropriate infrastructure and the shutdown and control of the flow of all vital information and associated commerce so rapidly as to achieve a level of national shock akin to the effect that dropping nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki had on the Japanese."[8]

Reiterating the example in an interview with CBS News several months before Operation Iraqi Freedom, Ullman stated, "You're sitting in Baghdad and all of a sudden you're the general and 30 of your division headquarters have been wiped out. You also take the city down. By that I mean you get rid of their power, water. In 2, 3, 4, 5 days they are physically, emotionally and psychologically exhausted."[9]


You might want to revisit the meaning of 'shock and awe'

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