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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Reagan couldn't get elected today because the truth of it is that he was a tax & spend liberal who tripled the debt, blew up the deficits, and raised taxes time after time after time.

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But...But... Kiki and Niki both say we've NEVER had a liberal president. You need to drop all that anti-liberal retoric, Mike, or you'll be in BIG trouble.

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"retoric"?


And did they really say "NEVER"? Or are you inventing your own (biased) facts yet again?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
True. We have never had a liberal president.

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Originally posted by Niki2:

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We have never had a liberal president. At best they were middle of the road

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That's actually quite accurate.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
The sticking point is the "illegally" part. The ATF said they WERE bought illegally, and they wanted them picked up, but the attorneys said there was nothing illegal in the purchases, according to the article Niki cited quite a while back.

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Apparently, if you just say you're buying the gun(s) for yourself, that's good enough for the government.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
According to at least one article, the tie-up came from prosecutors, not from the ATF. Prosecutors (state or federal) refused to acknowledge that there WERE "straw purchases", and said they could find no illegality in the purchases.

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Reporting from Washington— High-powered assault weapons illegally purchased under the ATF's Fast and Furious program in Phoenix ended up in a home belonging to the purported top Sinaloa cartel enforcer in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, whose organization was terrorizing that city with the worst violence in the Mexican drug wars.

In all, 100 assault weapons acquired under Fast and Furious were transported 350 miles from Phoenix to El Paso, making that West Texas city a central hub for gun traffickers. Forty of the weapons made it across the border and into the arsenal of Jose Antonio Torres Marrufo, a feared cartel leader in Ciudad Juarez, according to federal court records and trace documents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

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Last June, about nine months into the ATF operation known as "Fast and Furious," suspects had "purchased 1,608 firearms for over $1 million in cash transactions at various Phoenix-area gun shops," according to internal documents obtained by CBS News. The documents indicate ATF already knew that 179 of those very weapons had turned up at crime scenes in Mexico, and 130 in the U.S.

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“This operation was flawed in concept, as well as in execution,” Holder is to say, according to excerpts of his prepared testimony released Monday by the Justice Department. “Unfortunately, we will feel its effects for years to come as guns that were lost during this operation continue to show up at [crime] scenes both here and in Mexico.”

“This should never have happened. And it must never happen again,” Holder plans to say.

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The public first learned about Fast and Furious in late January of this year (2011) when U.S. Attorney Burke called a news conference in Phoenix to announce a 53-count indictment involving 20 suspects. The indictment alleged that from September 2009 to December 2010, the suspects bought hundreds of firearms to be illegally exported to Mexico.

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