Reasonable Gun Restrictions by ANTHONYT

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Clearly the number of guns is a far greater risk factor for violence and death both on the street and in the home than it is a benefit. So, since the number of household handguns is a predictor of gun deaths (homicide, suicide), and violence using guns, both on the street and in the home, the question to me becomes twofold:
1) how do you screen gun purchases to keep them out of the hands of men who would use them to intimidate, assault or kill family members, and
2) how do you keep household guns off the street.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:30 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Kiki,

Re: Handguns. The problem with an unreported incident is that it is unreported. The NRA can say whatever it likes about crime prevention because there is no way to know for sure. The anti-gun lobby can also claim zero crime prevention.

In my personal experience, I believe having a gun in my possession deterred violence one time in my life. That is the only statistic I can give you, and it adds nothing to this debate.

Well then, what's good about a handgun?

*** The Reverse Bergeron Effect ***

The best thing about a handgun is the exact same as the worst thing about a handgun. It levels the playing field a great deal. It gives the grandmother and the young punk a more even competing ground in a contest for survival. I say 'more even' and not simply 'even' because I believe the person who has the initiative always has the advantage, and that initiative is usually found in the hands of the aggressor. Where they surrender that initiative is in cases where they do not wish to kill you immediately, but may want some service from you before dispatching you. In such cases, it may be possible to reclaim initiative and defend yourself.

But on the flip side of things, a 90 pound weakling would never try to rob a bank without a gun. I am certain there are many criminals who commit crimes with a gun that they would never contemplate in a gunless society where they'd have to beat the tar out of everyone who resisted them, or enter into dagger duels.

So the gun in essence removes physical superiority from the equation of violence. It brings all men (and women) closer to parity on the subject of violence. For good and ill. To my mind, making violence more democratic is a good thing. Achieving a greater amount of parity is better than relinquishing it in favor of brutishness winning all contests. So I mark this as a net positive while freely admitting you may disagree.

*** SPORT ***

You very quickly dismiss sport as 'play' but I will note for the record that some human sporting pursuits are dangerous and also greatly loved. Swimming claims no end of victims and yet we install death boxes in our back yards and in public places teeming with children. Some sports are so dangerous that they require the participants to wear body armor, and those participants still suffer from all manner of injury and sometimes death. Sports can be dangerous. I do not know the number of injuries and deaths caused by handgunning versus swimming or American football, but all the handgun sporting events I have attended were free from injury while I have attended a fewer number of swimming and football events which nonetheless did contain injuries. I favor hand gunning as a sport myself, and think it deserves inclusion alongside other sports as worthy of merit.

*** THE MUSEUM ***

You mentioned collecting. I think we should be free to collect any relic of interest that isn't inherently dangerous while sitting in a display case. In most cases, people who collect guns for the sole purpose of collecting them do not keep them loaded. Usually these collections fall into historical categories, meaning that their continued use would diminish their value. I think those people who are in the habit of using curios are classed back to 'SPORT' because a collector usually wishes to preserve the collection while a sportsman may enjoy the historical nature of a weapon but also wish the satisfaction of using it in practice.

*** THE LIBERATOR ***

I think a handgun can provide great utility in rebellion as a weapon of insurrection. They tend to be small and easily concealed. The US Government thought highly enough of the idea to order thousands produced for air drop on occupied territories during World War II. They never completed their plan as envisaged, but they did create documents about what they expected to accomplish with such manufacture and distribution.

I offer a brief excerpt from wikipedia:

Quote:
A crude and clumsy weapon, the Liberator was never intended for front line service. It was originally intended as an insurgency weapon to be mass dropped behind enemy lines to resistance fighters in occupied territory. A resistance fighter was to recover the weapon, sneak up on an Axis occupier, kill or incapacitate him, and retrieve his weapons.

The weapon was valued as much for its psychological warfare effect as its actual field performance. It was believed that if vast quantities of these weapons could be delivered into Axis-occupied territory, it would have a devastating effect on the morale of occupying troops. The plan was to drop the weapon in such great quantities that occupying forces could never capture or recover all the weapons. It was hoped that the thought of thousands of these unrecovered weapons potentially in the hands of the citizens of occupied countries would have a deleterious effect on enemy morale.

Surely it is simple enough to see the corollary usefulness of large numbers of handguns in private hands under a tyrannical government.

*** MY CONCLUSION ***

Handguns can be and are employed dangerously, and there is no chart or graph or statistical analysis that shows they provide more boon than bust. My argument in favor of them thus must fall more into the philosophical or moral. To whit: It is a tool useful to a free man in a variety of venues, both for pleasure and practice. The maintenance of free men as free has intrinsic value, and the ability to react to state violence also has value to free men. I consider this value to be great, and sufficient to retain in the face of regrettable deaths and mayhem.

That having been said, I would be very much in favor of increasing the quality of individual owners. I believe that such quality improvements should be based on logical and not hysterical criteria, and that they should keep in mind potential abuse by the state against the individual.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:30 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

EDITED TO ADD:

I should have quoted you here, since the post I was replying to was 100% changed.

Good show ol' boy.....

Last things first: What is it you imagine I changed in my previous post? If I edited it at all (and I'm not saying I didn't; I'd have to go back and see it to see if I did), it was to add a word or two by way of clarification. Yet you claim that I changed it "100%". You DO realize what 100% means, don't you, Jack? I know you're not good with simple math, as you've shown quite often, but you realize that when you say I changed 100% of a post, that would mean I changed every single word. You get that, right?

Quote:

I didn't miss that at all, and I think I stated as much. Asking PA state to do anything is like asking Cuba or Puerto Rico for help here...... Worthless...

Why should I care what they found internally in a state that means nothing in a presidential election for themselves, let alone what they found in Illinois or California?

Well, as one of the state GOP officials was caught stating on video, they believe that the changes to Pennsylvania's voting laws will insure that the state goes to Romney, which was their goal.

You don't believe it because you choose not to. That's fine if that's the way you want to operate, but I'm going to call you out on your bullshit when you try to pass it off as fact here.

You can believe that Pennsylvania's electoral votes will have nothing at all to do with the outcome of the Presidential election in November. Can I quote you on that? Can I go ahead and assume that you're okay with awarding those votes to Obama, since it will mean nothing anyway?

Quote:

The only thing worthwhile that's come out of PA since the cracked liberty bell is "It's Always Sunny in PA", and they even made a joke about that on the show...

"Come to Philly for the Crack"....

Shame on you for kicking up rats nests in meaningless states and trying to make it sound like the voice of the land.....

Which states you define as "meaningless" is interesting to me. Apparently any swing state that might not go your way is now "meaningless".

Quote:

It wasn't even "legal" people quoted in your virtual cue card. It was idiot PA voters who know nothing about the real world. They live in PA... who can blame them?

Here you show clearly for all to see how very little YOU know of the real world. This was a legal document in the court case, and it was stipulating facts admitted as evidence THAT BOTH SIDES AGREED WERE TRUE FACTS.

Quote:
The state has admitted it can't cite a single case of the type of voter impersonation that it says makes the law necessary, despite a five-year U.S. Justice Department investigation directed toward that purpose.

Neither side disputes these facts. "The state" in this case includes the GOP-led legislature of Pennsylvania and the Republican Governor, who stipulate the fact that the voter fraud they claim is such a problem, actually does not exist. Not one single case, despite a five-year (that's before Obama was elected, by the way) federal DOJ investigation into such fraud.

So in reality, Jack, you're just flat-out lying when you claim otherwise. When you say these aren't "legal" people, do you mean that legally, Pennsylvania voters aren't real people, or do you mean that the people involved in this court case aren't lawyers? Either way, you're wrong.

But that won't stop you supporting laws prohibiting things that do not happen and "fixing" problems that do not exist.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:31 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Niki

And yet, the data shows that the number of HOUSEHOLD guns, in and of themselves, is clearly correlated with both violence and death, both in the home and on the street. And the number of HOUSEHOLD guns is the source of street guns (for the most part). The more of one, the more of those others.

While I think it's good to close down the loopholes that let guns flow directly to criminals at their behest (after all a straw purchaser is not coming up with the money to buy these guns, they're using the money and acting at the behest of criminals), the vast numbers of HOUSEHOLD guns poses a significant challenge. " The FBI estimates that there are over 200 million privately-owned firearms in the US." That's a lot of guns.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:50 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
3. Limiting sales of any and all guns to one TYPE per person and only one gun AT A TIME. Would make it harder to buy guns in quantity...yes, there are ways around it; buy one kind of gun one time, another time, but would sure slow quantity purchases.

Hello,

I'm afraid I don't understand this first proposed restriction. Do you mean that I could own a rifle or a handgun but not both? What do you mean by type of sale?

I take the rest to mean that you would only allow a person to by one gun on one trip to a store? Perhaps once per month?

Quote:
5. No ammunition sold over the internet, of any kind. I would add, proof of registration of a gun before ammo for that gun can be sold, but that's just me.

I'm not sure why there is a desire to limit internet sales. Buying bulk ammo over the internet is a great convenience to people who use ammunition regularly, cutting down their costs. Its only effect is to make ammunition less expensive. Requiring proof of 'registration' before ammunition can be purchased suggests you also favor registration of a firearm, above and beyond the normal checks conducted upon purchase. Is this so?

Quote:

6. Sales of those high-volume clips should be illegal; they do so much more harm when people go berserk, we could at least minimize the damage.

Interesting here that the magazine is considered more dangerous than the gun, since you do advocate the legal acquisition of guns but want to outlaw the magazines entirely. What would constitute a 'high volume' magazine, and would you also restrict the constabulary similarly?

Quote:
as well as people stockpiling guns like our own "militias" and "survivalists".

I wonder what is inherently dangerous about people 'stockpiling' guns (presumably owning more than one or two?) and why we feel the need to target this.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:53 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I think 1kiki is biased because she's only looking at the "big picture" in the US itself....

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/9/0042-9686_86_07-043489-table-
T1.html

Even in Canada, the suicide rate is doubled by hanging than it is by firearms.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that people will still commit suicide even without guns in every room? I'm sure you're correct, since suicide existed before guns did.

Are you suggesting guns should be available because they're such a nifty and effective suicide tool? Let's see...

Quote:

Had my uncle hanged himself, he might not have "lived" for another 6 hours on life support on tax-payer dollars.

Nope. That's not it. You say yourself that hanging would have been more effective for your uncle.

Quote:

Just for shits and giggles.... look at Cuba on these stats....

76.8% hanging deaths, while only 3.4% gun suicides....

And yet, more people hanged themselves in America than in Cuba (1056 for Cuba; 6642 for Team USA). And vastly more people blew their heads off with guns in America. Overall suicide rates per capita in both countries are within 1.3% of each other overall, though, with Cubans committing 1.3 suicides more per 100,000 people.

As hellish as we're told Cuba is, that number should be higher, shouldn't it?

Quote:

Does anyone here really believe that this was some sort of spiritual or country pride reason of inflicting a more brutal death upon themselves?

No......

So in your uncle's case, was it national or spiritual pride to inflict a gunshot wound and lingering death on himself, or was it just using whatever was handy?

Quote:

At least in America, these people would have been able to practically beg for suicide by cop bullet rather than tether the self-made noose around their own neck before kicking out the chair.

That speaks a lot about Cuban citizens and what they've had to endure the last 50 years or more.

So many of them willing to do that horrible death to themselves with no support, no third party.

Must have been great lives they lived up until that point, huh?

As noted, about 1.3 people per capita more than in the U.S.

How great has your life been up to this point, Jack?

Would a bullet to the brain be a more noble death than on overdose or jumping off a building?

BTW, I'm using WHO data from the same website to get my numbers.

http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/country_reports/en/

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 7:50 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Jew Senator Chuckie Schumer wants to take away YOUR guns:

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 7:59 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

There's that saying - if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

There are people here - and I think Frem, Jack and Anthony are some of them - who focus on guns as THE solution. If only Cubans had guns, then things would be different! somehow. If only the populace had access to any and all weapons, then we'd never have to worry about small groups of people intimidating the majority through force (despite that fact that a well-armed minority of the populace could BECOME the rulers-through-force). If only everyone had a gun then we'd all respect each other more.

And they're never, ever going to change their viewpoint as a result of rational, adult discussion. Because their position is essentially deeply emotional and personal, and has nothing to do with the facts of the larger world.

Anyone looking even-handedly across the information understands that the large number of guns in this country makes it a more violent, more intimidating, deadlier society. This is mostly consistent country to country, state to state and county to county.

If the data is that the problem is the numbers of guns, even household guns in the hands of (one presumes) not especially criminal people, then the answer is not even more guns.

Obviously something is going wrong with the way guns are being allowed into people's hands, with the way they're being used in the house, and with the way they're being kept in the house and end up on the street.

And maybe something wrong with just the sheer number of guns. I've read studies (which I haven't been able to find) that the mere PRESENCE of a gun in the house causes people to think about guns FIRST as a solution to whatever problem they're facing, whether it's in their mind, in the home, in the neighborhood, or on the job. The gun becomes the hammer and everything else is the nail.

But we won't get a discussion of any of this from some people.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:16 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
There are people here - and I think Frem, Jack and Anthony are some of them - who focus on guns as THE solution.

Quote:
And they're never, ever going to change their viewpoint as a result of rational, adult discussion.

Hello Kiki,

I see I am classified and dismissed. Thank you for the conversation.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:23 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well, after stating that you didn't want to discuss the constitution or historical intentions, and after the debate being opened by me ON YOUR TERMS, you seem to have ducked everything I posted. Honestly, if you made a point of not having a conversation with me now, at this point I wouldn't notice the difference.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:29 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Well, after stating that you didn't want to discuss the constitution or historical intentions, and after the debate being opened by me ON YOUR TERMS, you seem to have ducked everything I posted. Honestly, if you made a point of not having a conversation with me now, at this point I wouldn't notice the difference.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

Hello,

I don't think I ducked anything you posted? Very odd. I responded specifically to your post, "Okay, I'll start things off.' It was my first real post of the day.

You are incredibly dismissive and insulting 'rational, adult' and do not even seem to realize it. I do not recall belittling you in this fashion. When I indicate that I do not feel I can change your mind on a topic, I do NOT indicate that you are irrational or childish. I do not dismiss you in such a way. You are wrong to do so.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:38 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Everybody knows Gun Control works, but only when all guns are banned.

Do you really trust an illegal alien drug dealer named Hussein Obama to steal your right to SELF DEFENSE?

Quote:
"I'm Barack Obama, the Marxist professor. I spent the last two years of high school in a daze. I drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically. Look I uh, when I was a kid , I inhaled, frequently. that was uh, that was the point. Now you know that guy ain't shit. Sorry ass motherfuckers got nothin on me, nothin. Shit's gettin way too complicated for me. There are white folks, then there are ignorant motherfuckers like you. You can put lipstick on a pig. You ain't my bitch nigger, buy your own damn fries. That's just how white folks will do ya."
-Barack Hussein Obama Soetoro, Dreams From My Father MP3
http://www.archive.org/details/ObamaInauguralMashup/

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Pirate,

If you would kindly refrain from posting these sorts of pictures, the forums would retain greater utility for me. I am allowed to visit internet sites from work during my breaks and lunch. This is a very thoughtful allowance by my superiors. However, I can not visit sites with such vulgar imagery. This means that when you post such images, I have to abandon a fireflyfans thread for a good portion of my working day. I very much enjoy checking in throughout the day, so it would mean a lot to me if you would refrain for no other reason than thoughtfulness.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:49 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

OK - this is yet another example of a post that showed up very late. I looked for your response last night and this morning and your post wasn't there. I'll go back and read it, but I think I'm going to have to build a maybe a 12 hour wait-time and rummage back through the threads before I conclude there was no response.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:51 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
OK - this is yet another example of a post that showed up very late. I looked for your response last night and this morning and your post wasn't there. I'll go back and read it, but I think I'm going to have to build a maybe a 12 hour wait-time and rummage back through the threads before I conclude there was no response.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

Hello,

That may be wise, considering I like to sleep and breakfast and sometimes leave the internet while on errands and business matters between visits to the forum.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
States With Higher Levels Of Gun Ownership Have Higher Homicide Rates

Take away message: "The association between firearm prevalence and homicide was driven by gun-related homicide rates; non-gun-related homicide rates were not significantly associated with rates of firearm ownership."

However, it you look at the rates of gun ownership by state, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/health/interactives/guns/ownershi
p.html and the murder rates by state, http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/oct/05/us-homicide-rates#
table1 this supposed correlation doesn't seem to hold up very well. Perhaps the persons doing the study you cite had an agenda? Might want to research the Joyce Foundation, which sponsored the study.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:14 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

AnthonyT

Having read through your response, I see it was lengthy, point by point, and direct. I most humbly apologize for my characterization that you didn't reply. Though, in my defense, I have noticed that some posts do show up AFTER later posts - they get inserted between posts in places where they didn't exist before. My post was very much later than yours, but your post wasn't there at the time.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:27 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

AnthonyT

So, here is my reply -

"Handguns. The problem with an unreported incident is that it is unreported. The NRA can say whatever it likes about crime prevention because there is no way to know for sure. The anti-gun lobby can also claim zero crime prevention."

That's only if you assume there is no other data, but there is, and I gave examples of it. So here it is again:
> IF you assume the prevention rates claimed by the NRA, THEN you would have to conclude that the US has roughly 10x more initiated criminal acts (that would have been completed if it wasn't for a gun) than anywhere else on the planet. That doesn't seem reasonable. Therefore the prevention rates claimed by the NRA are inflated and unreliable.
> In states with 'stand your ground' laws crime rates haven't dropped. IF the idea is that guns prevent crimes, THEN crime rates should have dropped with the passage of 'stand your ground' laws, but they didn't.

The Reverse Bergeron Effect
The problem is IN GENERAL the people who take the initiative and get guns are the people most likely to resort to violence. The people who would most benefit from guns are IN GENERAL the people least likely to get and use them.

The use of handguns for entertainment
I consider both sport and collecting to be entertainment. The question is, does the value of the entertainment offset the death, disability and intimidation use of guns. Sport guns and collection guns are both sources of guns used for illegal purposes, no matter what their 'storage condition' in the home.

political
Again, there is no documented case of rebellion being won with hand guns.

"Handguns can be and are employed dangerously, and there is no chart or graph or statistical analysis that shows they provide more boon than bust. My argument in favor of them thus must fall more into the philosophical or moral. To whit: It is a tool useful to a free man in a variety of venues, both for pleasure and practice. The maintenance of free men as free has intrinsic value, and the ability to react to state violence also has value to free men. I consider this value to be great, and sufficient to retain in the face of regrettable deaths and mayhem."

And here is the nub - there is no proof that they provide more benefit than they take away in loss. There is only personal pleasure and theorized political benefit (not born out by historical evidence) to make up for the actual costs, pain, death, suffering, fear, grief and loss born by real people.

Obviously something is going very wrong with the way we distribute guns, respond to them, and keep them, or we wouldn't have the results we have today. Until we know WHAT is going so wrong and can mitigate it, I can't see an argument that doesn't take that into account.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:49 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Geezer

The study showing higher gun ownership rates with higher deaths and violence was done by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Unless you're claiming that Harvard is significantly biased, I don't think you have a point to make. Also, the study controlled for "resource deprivation, urbanization, aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, and alcohol consumption" all known to affect murder rate separately from gun ownership.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2007-releases/press011
12007.html

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:03 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello Pirate,

If you would kindly refrain from posting these sorts of pictures, the forums would retain greater utility for me. I am allowed to visit internet sites from work during my breaks and lunch. This is a very thoughtful allowance by my superiors. However, I can not visit sites with such vulgar imagery. This means that when you post such images, I have to abandon a fireflyfans thread for a good portion of my working day. I very much enjoy checking in throughout the day, so it would mean a lot to me if you would refrain for no other reason than thoughtfulness.

When all Democrats are banned from FFF I will refrain from posting the fruits of their criminal labors.

The photo in question is from Fox News (and every other corporate news source), so stay away from them too.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fox+news+mexico+corpses
http://topics.time.com/mexico/pictures/

Or we can discuss the benefits of banning chain saws?

In Mexico 16,000 Headless Bodies Remain Unidentified
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/07/23/unidentified-bodies-c
ontinue-to-be-found-in-mexico/

Obama gave 20,000 guns and grenades to the nice drug dealers who killed this politician in Mexico:

http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/the-arizona-law-mexican-
drug-cartels-threaten-mexican-democracy-leading-politician-assassinated-obamas-inaction-threatens-american-security/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Zetas

The only reasonable gun restriction is how much of a criminal financial penalty to be paid by lazy cowardly ignorant treasonous citizens who refuse to buy a loaded gun and carry it on their person, as done in Kennesaw Georgia.

The Law is clear -- the #1 purpose of guns is to shoot government employees when they get too big to arrest, otherwise civilization cannot survive. Which is why Washington DC is an unconstitutional gun-ban Victim Disarmament Zone. Even Joss Whedon had Nathan Fillion shoot a cop in the head, and Batman The Dark Knight assassinated the president of the United States as seen on History Channel and NPR radio (which is why Fox killed FF and Obama massacred Dark Knight fans).

Quote:
"I am convinced that there are more threats to American liberty within the 10 mile radius of my office on Capitol Hill than there are on the rest of the globe."
—Congressman Ron Paul MD

"How can I get the Captain to shoot a cop in the face, and make it right? That extra moment of sadism - that's the thing that says it's okay, buddy, you're not up to spec, you're going down!"
-Joss Whedon, Firefly DVD, censored Episode 1 "Serenity"

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:09 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Kiki,

I accept your apology for either not waiting for or not noticing my post, and I will understand an additional implied apology for the 'rational, adult' slight. My feeling is that rational adults can differ on topics for opposite and valid reasons. Something as simple as how much value is placed on personal liberties versus personal safety can cause reasonable people to differ.

I am curious on two points.

1) Do you think it is fair to apply all limitations on gun ownership and distribution to both citizenry and constabulary forces equally. (i.e., if an ordinary citizen can't have a high capacity magazine, neither can a constable. If an ordinary citizen can't carry a pistol down the street, neither can a constable)?

2) In lieu of firearms, would you support an individual's right to own and carry muscle-powered weaponry? (Bows, Swords, Cudgels, Knives, etc.)

The best and clearest path of common ground I see between myself and a gun control advocate would be if they applied limits equally to the constabulary and supported my right to own and carry simple weapons for defense.

As much as I despise the idea of surrendering firearms, I think I could live in a society that applied gun control equitably and recognized my right to defend myself against aggression. This would represent a society philosophically aligned with my thinking which merely placed more weight on safety over freedom without discarding one over the other.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:13 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
When all Democrats are banned from FFF I will refrain from posting the fruits of their criminal labors.

Hello,

Perhaps you could use words instead of pictures?

Quote:
The photo in question is from Fox News (and every other corporate news source), so stay away from them too.

I somehow manage to visit CNN.com without seeing anything like that. And so, I can visit CNN.com freely.

Nobody can make you do anything, Pirate. I am humbly asking you to have pity on me.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:46 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Anthony

I find it more useful to focus on the very large numbers of deaths, disabilities, injuries and violence visited on citizens BY citizens first.

"In the U.S. for 2010, there were 31513 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 19308; Homicide 11015; Accident 600."

"In 2008, the number of fatal and non-fatal gunshot wounds hit 110,215, the highest total during the nine-year period surveyed."

"Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.1 percent of the Nation’s murders, 42.6 percent of robberies, and 20.9 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for forcible rape.)"

This doesn't include intimidation or harassment.

This is massive non-governmental violence by anybody's measure.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:59 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Anthony

I find it more useful to focus on the very large numbers of deaths, disabilities, injuries and violence visited on citizens BY citizens first.

"In the U.S. for 2010, there were 31513 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 19308; Homicide 11015; Accident 600."

"In 2008, the number of fatal and non-fatal gunshot wounds hit 110,215, the highest total during the nine-year period surveyed."

"Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.1 percent of the Nation’s murders, 42.6 percent of robberies, and 20.9 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for forcible rape.)"

This doesn't include intimidation or harassment.

This is massive non-governmental violence by anybody's measure.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

Hello Kiki,

I'm not sure which of my posts this post is meant to respond to. I wholeheartedly agree that America is a violent country (though sometimes not the most violent Western culture, merely the one with the most deaths through violence.)

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:57 PM

Yeah, I cant look at FFF at work because if piratenuffnuff and his images and racial villification/ I'd get my arse kicked for being on a forum where there was the anti-jewish venom.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 1:33 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

AnthonyT

To this one ...

1) Do you think it is fair to apply all limitations on gun ownership and distribution to both citizenry and constabulary forces equally.

I think worrying about the government is misdirected considering the vast amount of gun damage inflicted by the citizenry on each other. If you could come up with a way to keep us from targeting each other I'd have no problems with any amount of arms.

However, if you’re worried about what the government is up to, I think it would be a good idea to push for repeal of the USPATRIOT Act through political means, as well as voting out those who support indefinite detention and assassination.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 1:39 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
AnthonyT

To this one ...

1) Do you think it is fair to apply all limitations on gun ownership and distribution to both citizenry and constabulary forces equally.

I think worrying about the government is misdirected considering the vast amount of gun damage inflicted by the citizenry on each other. If you could come up with a way to keep us from targeting each other I'd have no problems with any amount of arms.

However, if you’re worried about what the government is up to, I think it would be a good idea to push for repeal of the USPATRIOT Act through political means, as well as voting out those who support indefinite detention and assassination.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

Hello,

I am a strong advocate of repealing the patriot act, or any measure that strips away civil liberties.

But I am not an advocate of unilateral disarmament. If the police need these weapons to defend themselves against a violent population, then so do I.

(Incidentally, some statistics of gun violence will sometimes include violence committed by the state and justifiable homicides and injuries inflicted by people defending themselves. I first learned this years ago and was surprised and appalled at such slanted reporting. Just an FYI.)

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 1:51 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I look at actual damage to people, not to my delicate sensibilities. What we do to each other vastly dwarfs what the police do. As such, it's the larger problem. Waiting to solve that problem because of some other smaller perceived one isn't wise.

Again, if you have some insight as to why people tend do maximal violence to each other JUST BECAUSE guns are available, and how to prevent it, it would be a useful piece of information.

I have my own theories that dovetail with economic bias, but they're just theories.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 1:59 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I look at actual damage to people, not to my delicate sensibilities. What we do to each other vastly dwarfs what the police do. As such, it's the larger problem. Waiting to solve that problem because of some other smaller one isn't wise.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

Hello,

Do you have delicate sensibilities?

I do not understand how you can outline a culture of violence like this and then consider disarming me in the face of it. Incidentally, you never answered item 2 of my inquiry. Or if you did, I missed it.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:02 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
people tend do maximal violence to each other JUST BECAUSE guns are available

Hello,

I do not accept that violence occurs JUST BECAUSE guns are available. A year or two ago, I read a British article about violence in that country that suggested it was per capita higher than in the U.S. at the time. I was surprised by this.

ETA: Here is a similar article stating similar data. I do not believe this is violence owed to guns.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-vio
lent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:41 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I posted about this in the 'Batman' thread -

The second compares 'violent crime' across countries, but has suspect data. For example, it lists 'violent crime' in Canada as being roughly twice as prevalent as in the US. But more categories are reported as 'violent crime' in Canada than in the US. This is from WIKI: "The reported US violent crime rate includes only Aggravated Assault, whereas the Canadian violent crime rate includes all categories of assault, including the much-more-numerous Assault level 1 (i.e., assault not using a weapon and not resulting in serious bodily harm). A government study concluded that direct comparison of the 2 countries' violent crime totals or rates was "inappropriate"."

It took a single google search and the first hit to find that information. It seems like The Guardian didn't vet their information - at all. They just found numbers and ran them, no matter how invalid.

I'm out of here. I've posted facts, posted my POV, indicated why I think gun violence needs to be a focus - at this point either you give the idea that we have serious gun violence some credit or you don't.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

But I am not an advocate of unilateral disarmament. If the police need these weapons to defend themselves against a violent population, then so do I.

I'm all for reducing the amount of arms carried by the police. In the UK, general police do not carry guns, and incidents required use of armed force ie terrorist incidents, responses to a crime involving arms would require use of a special armed squad.

Victorian police (my state) are armed with smith and western semi automatic, of which I disaprove. I would support a more British model. Police called to general incidents should not be armed with guns, unless they suspect that guns are involved in the incident. Which is not that common.

I do not believe the general population should be armed the same as police, any more than I believe they should be armed the same as the military.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:57 PM

Not so long ago there was a violent incident at my work involving a young woman with serious mental health issues and I had to call the police. They responded by sending 2 very young women constables who handled the situation with expertise and were generally pretty awesome. Nevertheless, I was quite uncomfortable that they entered our premises with the intent of restraining a disturbed, but aggressive young woman, wearing their sidearms.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:06 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
They just found numbers and ran them, no matter how invalid.

Hello,

I'm not sure you read the entire article.

ETA: Correction, I see you were not referring to the article I posted.

In any event, and however you want to parse the data, the UK has a great deal of violence not attributable to firearms.

Quote:
at this point either you give the idea that we have serious gun violence some credit or you don't.

I have never contested such a premise.

Quote:
I'm out of here.

Goodbye.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:12 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I would support a more British model.

Hello,

There are some rather nice British firearms to choose from. Are there any Australian ones?

Quote:
I do not believe the general population should be armed the same as police

Not even if they complete the same firearm training and qualification?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
people tend do maximal violence to each other JUST BECAUSE guns are available

Hello,

I do not accept that violence occurs JUST BECAUSE guns are available. A year or two ago, I read a British article about violence in that country that suggested it was per capita higher than in the U.S. at the time. I was surprised by this.

ETA: Here is a similar article stating similar data. I do not believe this is violence owed to guns.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-vio
lent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

--Anthony

I think ikiki's point is that you can generally do more physical damage with weapons such as guns.

Violence is separate from gun ownership. Societies can be more or less violent, in my opinion, based upon a whole host of social reasons. I am sure there are some academics works out there on some of the reasons, which I don't have time to look up today.

Guessing, I'd say things like dramatic economic disparity between the richest and the poorest; having racial, ethnic, religious groups that are or perceive themselves to be disenfranchised, level of usage of drugs such as alcohol and other stimulent, social behavioural inhibitor inducing ones as well as societal attitudes towards violence including tolerance or lack of tolerance of violent responses all would play a part.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:21 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
people tend do maximal violence to each other JUST BECAUSE guns are available

Hello,

I do not accept that violence occurs JUST BECAUSE guns are available. A year or two ago, I read a British article about violence in that country that suggested it was per capita higher than in the U.S. at the time. I was surprised by this.

ETA: Here is a similar article stating similar data. I do not believe this is violence owed to guns.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-vio
lent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

--Anthony

I think ikiki's point is that you can generally do more physical damage with weapons such as guns.

Violence is separate from gun ownership. Societies can be more or less violent, in my opinion, based upon a whole host of social reasons. I am sure there are some academics works out there on some of the reasons, which I don't have time to look up today.

Guessing, I'd say things like dramatic economic disparity between the richest and the poorest; having racial, ethnic, religious groups that are or perceive themselves to be disenfranchised, level of usage of drugs such as alcohol and other stimulent, social behavioural inhibitor inducing ones as well as societal attitudes towards violence including tolerance or lack of tolerance of violent responses all would play a part.

Hello,

This is all sensible.

I am sorry she never answered my second question.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:21 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

AnthonyT

At the very end of YOUR article it says the same thing that I posted:

"Researchers admit that comparisons of crime data between countries must be viewed with caution because of differing criminal justice systems and how crimes are reported and measured.

A Home Office spokesperson said: “These figures are misleading. Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime."

You didn't intend to make a comparison between England and the US - did you?

Aside from that, there is the Harvard study using CDC data that relates number of guns to violence state to state, that I went around about with Geezer, plus a risk study about guns in the home I posted.

Maybe you are not reading the data that's put out there, but there is plenty that I linked that 1) disputes comparisons across countries, and 2) relates guns to violence WITHIN the US.

In fact, there are plenty of studies YOU COULD FIND YOURSELF if you looked. I suggest you go to science daily http://www.sciencedaily.com/ and search.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Hello,

There are some rather nice British firearms to choose from. Are there any Australian ones?

I was talking models of policing, not guns, or are you being a minx again?

Quote:
I do not believe the general population should be armed the same as police

Quote:
Not even if they complete the same firearm training and qualification?

I don't see any need.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

I am sorry she never answered my second question.

--Anthony

which was this "2) In lieu of firearms, would you support an individual's right to own and carry muscle-powered weaponry? (Bows, Swords, Cudgels, Knives, etc.)" right?

It puzzled me to read that switchblades were illegal in the US. Laws are often very inconsistent. Perhaps if there was a NKA association they would be readily available.

I suppose all weapons should be treated equally in theory. The problem is that bats and knives often have other purposes. I know there are restrictions here on non gun type weapons ie numchuckers are illegal.

Is it purpose built to be a weapon?
How much damage could it inflict ie what is its lethality? ie if it can kill/injure a crowd of people in a few minutes it probably should be considered a restricted weapon.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:38 PM

okay here are some that you are prohibited from bringing into the country without a permit

:

Daggers, automatic knives, single handed opening knives, butterfly knives, trench knives, ballistic knives, concealed knives/blades, throwing knives/blades/axes, star knives, push knives, sheath knives, non-metallic knives

Military goods and other weapons including: blow pipes, crossbows, martial arts equipment, knuckle dusters, slingshots, maces, flails.

Chemicals controlled under the Chemical Weapons Convention.

Devices designed or customised to be used by a person to commit suicide, or to be used by a person to assist another person to commit suicide.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:40 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I was talking models of policing, not guns, or are you being a minx again?

Hello,

LOL! No, I misunderstood. You mentioned Smith and Wesson and I assumed when you said 'model' you were referring to the manufacturer.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:52 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:

which was this "2) In lieu of firearms, would you support an individual's right to own and carry muscle-powered weaponry? (Bows, Swords, Cudgels, Knives, etc.)" right?

Hello,

Right.

Quote:
It puzzled me to read that switchblades were illegal in the US.

I'm not sure that's a Federal law. I know it has been true in places where I've lived before. It makes no sense to me, either.

Quote:
numchuckers are illegal.

In Australia?

Quote:
I suppose all weapons should be treated equally in theory

Well, according to the tally I've been keeping so far-

You think police should have guns under special circumstances, other less lethal weapons under normal circumstances.

You do not think citizens should be able to qualify to match police armaments.

And you believe all weapons should be treated equally...

The sum of which would leave me with no ability under your preferred scheme to carry any weapon for my defense.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:57 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Daggers, automatic knives, single handed opening knives, butterfly knives, trench knives, ballistic knives, concealed knives/blades, throwing knives/blades/axes, star knives, push knives, sheath knives, non-metallic knives

Military goods and other weapons including: blow pipes, crossbows, martial arts equipment, knuckle dusters, slingshots, maces, flails.

Hello,

I think all of these are available for sale and private ownership where I live currently.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:43 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Kiki, you have my sympathy. You have now run up against the brick wall I call Anthony's "absolutism". On some subjects, particularly where his rights (or those who agree with him on an issue) are infringed upon, he seems to be able to see only one side, and will debate it until the cows come home. I realize he believes he's debating fairly, but in my opinion he is not. Sorry you had to waste the time and energy learning that lesson; with any luck it will stick with you as it has stuck with me and you won't have to go through it again. There is sometimes a simple blindness you just cannot get past.

Quote:
Clearly the number of guns is a far greater risk factor for violence and death both on the street and in the home than it is a benefit

You'll never get through with that one, real as it is, especially with Anthony. He feels how he feels about guns, in his opinion the Constitution gives him the right to own not only them but tanks and essentially ANY other form of weapon, so there's an end to it, in his mind.

Kiki, I understand what you're saying about household guns. I come from a place of what is, I believe, reality. We'll never get rid of guns in America; the worst use of them is by criminals and "domestic terrorists" (which is what I consider Columbine and the recent mass slaughter), so I focus on that. For me it's a waste to discuss household guns, only to minimize things going forward

Anthony,

Quote:
I think a handgun can provide great utility in rebellion as a weapon of insurrection.

Your fear of government, in my opinion, is something that drives you far more than I wish it did. It runs through everything you write, and to me it isn't a valid argument. The fact that you are so firmly convinced that an oppressive government will...do something to us, I'm not sure what, is one of the things about you which makes me the most uncomfortable. Your absolutism on this issue is very frustrating, given I JUST DON'T SEE IT. In a nation as huge as ours, with the population we have, in a modern society...I just don't get it. Obviously you do, so I won't argue with you. I just wish you weren't so hung up on your fear of it.

My #1 should have been registration of ALL guns, it always slips my mind that we don't already have that. I don't see why we don't have that now, I would feel a lot better if there was a national database and all guns had to be registered. My #3 was to say that people could only have one of each kind of gun...which I realize is pretty silly, but the idea of people having many handguns, plus many rifles, plus many semi-automatics, etc. Of course it's unworkable, since "type" couldn't be properly classified and makes for all kinds of loopholes. Scratch that one. I would also like it, yes, if people were limited to one gun purchase a month...if you can possibly let go of your absolutism for just a minute, WHY is it so necessary that everyone should be able to have so many guns? Surely a few would suffice for self-protection, sport, etc.; beyond that, it doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah, in your OPINION the Constitution says we have the right to bear arms, but shouldn't there be SOME sort of limitation??? Your arguments are all that anyone has the right to have as many guns, tanks, etc., as they want; that forestalls ANY debate on any kind of reasonable basis. Can you conceive of ANY middle ground at all??

So not allowing people to buy ammunition over the internet makes it a bit more expensive. So what? Same question; just because we have the right to bear arms, why does that mean everyone has the right to tons and tons of ammunition? If it were restricted to buying from a store (and I don't think some of the stores which sell guns currently should be doing so at ALL), there's always the chance that the store owner might notice someone stockpiling a huge amount of ammunition. For me, the argument that it's cheaper over the internet doesn't hold water against the fact that so high a volume can be bought anonymously.

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I wonder what is inherently dangerous about people 'stockpiling' guns

Why isn't it. Guns are for killing, period. I have no problem with someone having maybe a couple of different kinds of hand guns for target practice, and a rifle for hunting, etc., but what is the LOGIC to stockpiling guns?

Your analogy to swimming and football holds no weight. Everyone who swims or plays football can CHOOSE to do so, or not. People don't run around forcing others into the swimming pool or making someone play dangerous sports. Those sports involve the people who CHOOSE to engage in them. Guns do not; you can try some argument that they do, but the people on the other end of the guns weren't asked if they wanted to play.

Where exactly did I say the ammunition was more dangerous than the gun, OR that I wanted to "outlaw the magazines entirely"? Now you're straying from your usual efforts to be logical and civil, I never said any of those things. And of course I can't debate volumes with you, you know I don't know that much about guns, but you also know that one of the reasons so MANY people have been killed in these mass slaughters is that the killer used high-volume "magazines"--or whatever you want to call them. You understand what I'm saying, I think you're choosing to nit pick this one and I would ask you not to put words in my mouth, please.

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And they're never, ever going to change their viewpoint as a result of rational, adult discussion. Because their position is essentially deeply emotional and personal, and has nothing to do with the facts of the larger world. Anyone looking even-handedly across the information understands that the large number of guns in this country makes it a more violent, more intimidating, deadlier society.

I'm fully with Kiki on this one. You took offense, Anthony, but the fact remains that she's right...NO amount of reasonable discussion will ever change your mind, because you dismiss any infringement on the rights of anyone to have as many guns as they want, simple as that. As you see it, the Constitution grants us the right to bear arms (the fact of what it actually says the PURPOSE of that should be is dismissed out of hand, apparently), so everyone should be able to have as many guns as they want, all kinds of guns, right up to tanks (which blows my mind), no restrictions. If you looked at your arguments objectively throughout this thread, you'd see it. That's the wall people bang their head against, and why nothing will ever get you to even accept any reasonable curtailment of what you see as a right, you always find some reason to negate or dismiss the arguments.

I realize you do believe

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I don't think I ducked anything you posted? Very odd. I responded specifically to your post.

If it were me, "ducked" would mean what I said above. You see things in relation to some issues from only one perspective, in my opinion; I know you think you're being reasonable, but the fact is, your "responses" mitigate every argument presented, and not always with what I would call "reasonable" points. Comparing guns as "sport" to swimming and football? I realize YOU probably see it that way, and there's the problem. It's not valid, but you believe it is.

As to her dismissiveness, chalk it up to frustration. I know how she feels, and it's very difficult to keep on trying and trying to get through, holding back one's frustrations in an attempt to make reasonable points, when those points are responded to the way they are. That there should be no curb at all to people buying huge amounts of ammunition for a dangerous weapon because that would make it slightly more expensive? Would you say that about a poison? Some people use poisons and drugs for quite reasonable purposes...do you believe there should be no curb on how much of those poisons or drugs they should be able to buy off the internet? Somehow leaping to my believing ammunition is more dangerous than the gun, for example...? As with everyone, you see things through your own perspective, and when it comes to some things, your perspective is so entrenched, you can't see past it.

Ah, I see Kiki summed it up pretty well:

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IN GENERAL the people who take the initiative and get guns are the people most likely to resort to violence. The people who would most benefit from guns are IN GENERAL the people least likely to get and use them.
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does the value of the entertainment offset the death, disability and intimidation use of guns.
.....
And here is the nub - there is no proof that they provide more benefit than they take away in loss. There is only personal pleasure and theorized political benefit (not born out by historical evidence) to make up for the actual costs, pain, death, suffering, fear, grief and loss born by real people.

Obviously something is going very wrong with the way we distribute guns, respond to them, and keep them, or we wouldn't have the results we have today. Until we know WHAT is going so wrong and can mitigate it, I can't see an argument that doesn't take that into account.

That's it in a nutshell, for me as well.

I reject your points #1 and 2. To begin with, it's not logical; we can't stop what is, we can only go from here. Given the vast number of guns (far more, I would guess, than all the police forces in America), your #1 would never come to pass. I wouldn't want it to; the abuse by police of guns can't begin to compare to the abuse by the population of guns, and police are at least somewhat accountable by virtue of their occupation; people who use guns aren't accountable in that they have to be found, captured and tried before any accountability sets in.

I don't even know why you put #2 IN, given reality. Theoretically, I would be in favor of that--nobody can do the kind of incredible damage with any of those that one man by himself can do with a gun, especially a semi-automatic one.

DID Kiki " outline a culture of violence like this and then consider disarming me in the face of it?" I didn't see that anywhere...I saw her making the point that we're too violent and debating that it would be better to have FEWER guns out there, but I didn't see her suggesting we disarm you.

GAWD how I wish someone could do something about PN. Even just scrolling past, I catch bits of images that turn my stomach, and which DO NOT BELONG HERE! This is a site for supposed browncoat friends to discuss things, not for visual attacks of graphically violent and horrid images. There is no excuse for PN being part of this group, he does nothing but put up horrible images and political bullshit; he NEVER engages with others, just slathers propaganda. He disgusts me; I wish he would get help or go away...and yes, while I virtually never wish someone were banned here...in fact I can't think of one other person (including Kane) I would wish that of, I do wish it of PN. Anyone else is easily ignored, but even scrolling past his feces of a post isn't healthy.

And yes, the photo that I caught a glimpse of (and wouldn't stop to look at for any reason) hasn't been shown on "every other corporate news source". That's pure, unadulterated bullshit.

Okay, I've caught up and had my say. I chalk it up to my propensity for debate that even made me come back here, much less respond. Hopefully I'll have the self-control to avoid doing so again. So I'm outta here, too.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:45 PM

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Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Well, according to the tally I've been keeping so far-

You think police should have guns under special circumstances, other less lethal weapons under normal circumstances.

You do not think citizens should be able to qualify to match police armaments.

And you believe all weapons should be treated equally...

The sum of which would leave me with no ability under your preferred scheme to carry any weapon for my defense.

--Anthony

Hmm, I think you have added 1 = 1 and gotten to 7. or maybe I am not making myself clear.Or maybe I am being inconsistent. All of these are possible.

I really don't want people to be able to have 'easy' access to lethal weapons without restrictions or permits. I'd like there to be some fairly heavy restrictions on military style weapons and armaments in general. I see the need for police to sometimes use weapons and sometimes use some fairly heavy duty ones, but I'd prefer them not to be armed with guns on their regular beat.

I can't argue or debate exactly what sort of weapons should be legal, should be available by permit, and should be illegal because here is where my life kind of veers away from that path. I own no weapons that have been purpose built for killing and maiming. That is, I own knives and hammers and other equipment that could be used as weapons, but I have bought none for the purpose of self defence, or for that matter to prevent tyranny. I can't ever imagine a time when I will do so. So I will never own a 'purpose built' weapon as far as I can see. Unless my husband becomes an active member of Medievel Reenactments, and starts building trebuchets in the back garden;)

I hope you understand how this does not correlate with me calling for an absolute ban on anything, but that I am limited in my interest in the nitty gritty of what should or should not happen. And I guess that is really for you in the US to work out.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:46 PM

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Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
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Daggers, automatic knives, single handed opening knives, butterfly knives, trench knives, ballistic knives, concealed knives/blades, throwing knives/blades/axes, star knives, push knives, sheath knives, non-metallic knives

Military goods and other weapons including: blow pipes, crossbows, martial arts equipment, knuckle dusters, slingshots, maces, flails.

Hello,

I think all of these are available for sale and private ownership where I live currently.

--Anthony

Well I know people who have owned some of the above, so I am figuring there is a permit system in place for some.

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Sunday, July 29, 2012 7:12 PM