REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

IDF shoots at unarmed farmers; Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews attack Xtain churches; arms flow to Syrian radical Islamists

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 06:21
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Friday, October 19, 2012 7:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


IDF SHOOTS AT FARMERS

Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) Shoot at Palestinian farmers for no reason whatsoever in front of international observers






ULTRA-ORTHODOX ISRAELI JEWS ATTACK EVERYONE

This is a rambling article, I've edited it to focus on attacks against Xtians.

Quote:

A Franciscan monastery on Mount Zion in Jerusalem was vandalized in early October, as derogatory words about Jesus were painted on the entrance gate alongside the words “Price tag” in Hebrew. “Price tag” violence is the term used to describe acts of vandalism usually carried out by Jewish-Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank in response to Israeli government decisions with which they disagree.
....The Assembly of Catholic Ordinaries in the Holy Land expressed its dismay at the incident. “More than anything, the Assembly again asks, that radical changes be made in the educational system, otherwise the same causes will produce the same effects over and over,” it said in a statement (“Franciscan convent on Mount Zion desecrated, ACOHL dismayed,” Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, 2 October).To date, Israeli police have yet to arrest anyone in connection with the vandalism.
...

The recent wave of attacks on Christian holy sites signals something new, however. Suspected Israeli extremists also burned the door of a monastery in Latrun — halfway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv — in September, and scrawled the words “Jesus is a monkey” on the wall....

In July, Israeli Knesset (parliament) member Michael Ben-Ari tore up a copy of the New Testament. “This abominable book brought about the murder of millions of Jews in the Inquisition,” Ben-Ari reportedly said, adding, “This book and those who sent it belong in the garbage can of history.”

Priests from many Christian denominations have long complained of harassment in Jerusalem’s Old City, including most notably being cursed and spat on by ultra-Orthodox Jews.

“This is one of the phenomena that we as Armenians who live in this part of the Old City have been facing for many years,” explained Archbishop Aris Shirvanian, Director of the ecumenical and foreign relations department of the Armenian Patriarchate in Jerusalem.

“I believe it’s a matter of education. People that are in [the] majority and do not condone such acts, whether vandalism or spitting, they should do their duty by educating their own people to refrain from such activities which are threatening the peace in this land,” Shirvanian said.....

According to Kairos’ Rifat Kassis, attacks on Christian holy sites are only one part of the daily attacks carried out by right-wing Israelis against Palestinians throughout the area.



-------------------

Our Allies May Be Arming the Next Osama bin Laden in Syria

Quote:

For months, the U.S. has been helping Arab allies coordinate arms shipments to rebel fighters in Syria. Unfortunately, most of those weapons are going to radical Islamists instead of secular opposition groups. According to a classified government report uncovered by The New York Times' David Sanger, the flood of Saudi and Qatari weapons into Syria is strengthening the hand of extremist groups in the country, including those with ties to Al Qaeda. “The opposition groups that are receiving the most of the lethal aid are exactly the ones we don’t want to have it,” a U.S. official says. Not only is there the fear that the weapons could bolster anti-American insurgent groups, but these extremist groups could hold sway in a future Syrian government should President Bashar al-Assad be removed. “The longer this goes on, the more likely those groups will gain strength,” a Middle East diplomat tells the Times.


It's the sort of dark irony reminiscent of the Soviet war in Afghanistan, in which an influx of foreign militants and weaponry to the mujahideen gave rise to blowback, and even provided a springboard for more ambitious extremists like Osama bin Laden. As it stands, the U.S. is not sending arms directly to Syrian opposition groups, it's reportedly just helping Saudi Arabia and Qatar do it with lighter weapons like rifles and grenades. But this latest assessment, which Sanger says has been delivered to President Obama, calls into question the White House strategy of indirect intervention.




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Friday, October 19, 2012 1:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I would have expected rappy to home in on the last article, and come out guns blazing about how we shouldn't arm radical Muslims. I guess the info is just too real and complicated for him to process.

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Friday, October 19, 2012 10:19 PM

OONJERAH



My take on the second story, re: Syria

We are playing Divide & Conquer with them.



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Saturday, October 20, 2012 2:57 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Our Allies May Be Arming the Next Osama bin Laden in Syria

Quote:

For months, the U.S. has been helping Arab allies coordinate arms shipments to rebel fighters in Syria. Unfortunately, most of those weapons are going to radical Islamists instead of secular opposition groups. According to a classified government report uncovered by The New York Times' David Sanger, the flood of Saudi and Qatari weapons into Syria is strengthening the hand of extremist groups in the country, including those with ties to Al Qaeda. “The opposition groups that are receiving the most of the lethal aid are exactly the ones we don’t want to have it,” a U.S. official says. Not only is there the fear that the weapons could bolster anti-American insurgent groups, but these extremist groups could hold sway in a future Syrian government should President Bashar al-Assad be removed. “The longer this goes on, the more likely those groups will gain strength,” a Middle East diplomat tells the Times.


It's the sort of dark irony reminiscent of the Soviet war in Afghanistan, in which an influx of foreign militants and weaponry to the mujahideen gave rise to blowback, and even provided a springboard for more ambitious extremists like Osama bin Laden. As it stands, the U.S. is not sending arms directly to Syrian opposition groups, it's reportedly just helping Saudi Arabia and Qatar do it with lighter weapons like rifles and grenades. But this latest assessment, which Sanger says has been delivered to President Obama, calls into question the White House strategy of indirect intervention.






But Gov. Romney promises that if elected, he'll make sure that arms go to rebel groups "who share our values".

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/world/middleeast/jihadists-receiving
-most-arms-sent-to-syrian-rebels.html?hp&pagewanted=all&_r=0

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Saturday, October 20, 2012 4:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Me, I am rather gratified by the brush off that ole Ninnyhammer(Netanyahu) got from the CinC - he came over here demanding a face-to-face and Obama brushed him off, and then when he went whining to the usual bunch of Likud-fellators at least two of em (one was Waxman) sent him packing.

This resulted in his HILARIOUSLY bad whinefest at the UN, complete with ridiculous flashcards, which rendered him more or less a laughingstock - ridicule is a deadly political weapon.

Word has it that him and his have thrown behind Mitt the Shitt, but I think it's a bit too late in the game for that to have any effect, especially with Mitt so good at blowing his own campaign to bits, and THAT gives me a certain kind of hope cause when Mitt gets steamrollered we will for once in a very long time have an administration that isn't wholly beholden to the Likudniks.. and THAT, is a game-changer, right there.

There was also THIS...
Labor MK blasts Netanyahu, Barak for ‘blatant interference’ in US elections over Iran
http://www.timesofisrael.com/labor-mk-blasts-netanyahu-barak-for-blata
nt-interference-in-us-elections-over-iran
/

New Yorker magazine editor says Netanyahu is 'arrogant and dangerous'
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/new-yorker-magazine-edit
or-says-netanyahu-is-arrogant-and-dangerous-1.464779


Of course, my reaction was "What, you only noticed just NOW?!" - but Ninnyhammer has managed to offend even his own, kind of like our psychotic chickenhawk warmongers, and it looks like reasonable folk are fed up with this bullshit.

Also worth a note was a little back-channel intermediary communication wherein we (in really polite diplomatic doublespeak) essentially told the Iranians that if Israel DOES attack them, and they refrain from firing on our naval assets, we will sit it out - dunno that they'd believe us, or actually refrain (I doubt it, and I doubt even more we'd keep our word) but Ninnyhammer hit the roof about that one too, making him look even MORE like an insane fool.

So, hope - not a lot, but some.

-Frem

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Saturday, October 20, 2012 4:24 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

But Gov. Romney promises that if elected, he'll make sure that arms go to rebel groups "who share our values".

Gov. Romney promises a lot of things.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, October 20, 2012 6:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

My take on the second story, re: Syria We are playing Divide & Conquer with them.
Well, if that's the case then we're playing "divide and conquer" with a LOT of nations. Afghanistan is a failed state, thanks to our 30+ years intervention. Iraq is a failed state, thanks to our invasion. Libya is a failed state in the making. Ditto Syria. We are now trying to crash Iran.

But who benefits from a raft of failed states from N Africa thru the Horn of Africa to Pakistan? It certainly doesn't do our national security any good, as failed states (especially those created by us) tend to be breeding grounds for significant blowback. So who's driving this bus? Except for our interest in oil (Iran, Iraq, Libya) I fail to see any reason why we're toppling governments everywhere we go. Maybe the military-contractor complex is the main beneficiary. Or maybe we're trying to deny China oil.

Quote:

Me, I am rather gratified by the brush off that ole Ninnyhammer(Netanyahu) got from the CinC - he came over here demanding a face-to-face and Obama brushed him off, and then when he went whining to the usual bunch of Likud-fellators at least two of em (one was Waxman) sent him packing.

This resulted in his HILARIOUSLY bad whinefest at the UN, complete with ridiculous flashcards, which rendered him more or less a laughingstock - ridicule is a deadly political weapon.

Yes, I thought the presentation was overwrought. About like Colin Powell, but with sillier presentation materials. You can only cry "wolf" so often before people stop caring and start laughing!

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Saturday, October 20, 2012 6:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


We play divide-and-conquer with virtually every country we get involved in, don't we? Again and again we arm "freedom fighters" only to have them turn around and become our enemies. Something about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result...except that I don't think we do it out of good intentions. "We" have other reasons for doing what we do than the good of the countries involved, and we all know it.

As to Israel, it will continue to sicken me that in the view of most ignorant Americans, Israel can do no wrong when it comes to all those "Palestinian terrorists", that they deserve whatever they get, that Israel is our staunch ally and the good guys and just fighting to survive, and, and, and...

Sometimes I think America will never wake up on this issue, but then I realize that there are political reasons for keeping us ignorant, so "it works for them..."


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Saturday, October 20, 2012 6:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


'Divide and conquer" has a long viable history. Except in order for it to be successful you have to actually GET something out of it. Back in the day of the Roman Empire or the days of colonialization the central authority got trade, tribute/ taxes, markets, or resources.

So what are WE getting, besides a lot of headaches and enemies? Because for all of the expenditures of money and blood, I've only seen one possible payback: The two oil-producing nations that were going to dump the dollar were obliterated. Other than that, it looks like a wrecking ball got loose. So I'm still puzzled about the overall purpose of our "wrecking ball gone wild" approach.

Maybe some of our pro-military, anti-Muslim peeps can explain it to me, 'cause I'm not seeing much upside.

Comments?

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Saturday, October 20, 2012 11:40 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Maybe Israel benefits?

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Saturday, October 20, 2012 6:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I see rappy, Geezer, and Wulf don't have any ideas about why we're blowing wads of cash destabilizing a half-dozen or so nations without any apparent purpose.

C'mon guys! You always spout the party line! So tell me.... what's the point?

Or maybe someone on the librul end of the spectrum can channel their dark side. 'Cause right now, it looks like the bus is diverless. Or different drivers are fighting for the wheel.

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Sunday, October 21, 2012 3:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, I see rappy, Geezer, and Wulf don't have any ideas about why we're blowing wads of cash destabilizing a half-dozen or so nations without any apparent purpose.



Maybe you should ask the President. While he inherited Afghanistan and Iraq, Libya and Syria are all his, as is the increased drone offensive in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, etc.

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Tuesday, October 23, 2012 5:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So you don't think military intervention is the answer?

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 4:06 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I've only seen one possible payback: The two oil-producing nations that were going to dump the dollar were obliterated.


Pretty much exactly this. The before and after of which countries we have gone to war with and then they subsequently joined the WTO is fairly telling. Gaddafi even called the WTO "terrorists" in 2010.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 6:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Very weird--I replied to this, but it's nowhere to be seen. Not the first time that's happened, dammit.

So again: I think what we're "getting" out of these actions is to a certain degree self-fulfillment by the military...after all, if we're not fighting a war somewhere, what's their purpose? I think in the past there were other reasons; I know when I was in Afghanistan, but the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. were currying favor with them as a "buffer state". Russia finally took action on that, as we all know.

I think power is another; we're kind of used to controlling much of the rest of the world, either through military might or through puppet leaders. While I think those days are largely over, I'm not sure our government (or military) realize this and old habits die hard.

Iraq, to me, was "finishing what daddy started", especially as Dubya and his cronies were planning on invading it LONG before 9/11 gave them the excuse (and of course their insistence that Saddam was behind 9/11 was an excellent excuse).

And some we get dragged into, like Korea and Vietnam...we may have had our own reasons for getting involved, but we have an unfortunate tendency to try and "police" the world where we perceive wrongs being done...another outdated motive which I think hasn't been discarded.

Sadly, unfortunately our efforts a lot of the time do turn into wrecking balls, and we leave the country far worse off than when we came (i.e., Iraq and Afghanistan). We back "freedom fighters" with weapons, etc., only to have them turned on us when what we called freedom fighters become what we call "terrorists".

By the way, someone mentioned the world wars and took pleasure in blaming "A Democrat President". Naturally there's more to it than that, which they cheerfully ignore. We were an isolationist nation at those times, and the country had to be dragged into the wars by either having our allies fall or look to fall, or in WW2's case, by being attacked ourselves.

Also, historically (tho' I know "they'll" not care:
Quote:

In 1914, when war was declared in Europe, America adopted a policy of neutrality and isolation. Up to that date, America had tried to keep out of World War One – though she had traded with nations involved in the war – but unrestricted submarine warfare, introduced by the Germans on January 9th, 1917, was the primary issue that caused Woodrow Wilson to ask Congress to declare war on Germany on April 2nd.

As to WW2:
Quote:

Reason number one: The Japanese bombed and nearly destroyed the entire US Naval Fleet in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii on December 7, 1941.

Reason number two: Winston Churchill had been begging for the US to help the Brits and their allies to defeat the evil Nazi Germans and to liberate the European countries who were being oppressed by the Nazis or killed by them. The Nazis killed 20 million people in the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was an ally of the UK and USA.

Reason Number Three and the most Important Reason: To save the world from fascism, communism and the evil, atrocious acts being done by the Japanese.
To save the nations of the world that were taken over by the Japanese, Germans and Italians. They also had to save as many Jews and "undesirables" Hitler had been killing in mass genocide.


Of course, to Rap and his buddies, none of this means anything, it was totally the decision of "A Democrat President"


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