REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Homo (Sans) Sapiens: Is Dumb and Dumber Our Evolutionary Destiny?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 07:29
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VIEWED: 1902
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Monday, November 26, 2012 6:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Along the lines of the other discussion about IQ going on here,
Quote:

James R. Flynn’s observation that IQ scores experienced dramatic gains from generation to generation throughout the 20th century has been cited so often, even in popular media, that it is becoming a cocktail party talking point. Next stop a New Yorker cartoon. (An article about Flynn and the Flynn effect has already been published in The New Yorker.)

A recent report in Trends in Genetics (part 1 and part 2) takes a bleaker view of our cognitive future—one that foresees the trend line proceeding inexorably downward. Gerald Crabtree, a biologist at Stanford University, has put forward a provocative hypothesis that our cushy modern existence—absent the ceaseless pressures of natural selection experienced during the Paleolithic—makes us susceptible to the slow creep of random genetic mutations in the the 2000 to 3000 genes needed to ensure that our intellectual and emotional makeup remains intact. The implications of this argument are that we as a species of the genus Homo are over many generations slowly losing our sapiens.

The really clever part of Crabtree’s argument rests on the contention that a Stone Age Fred Flintstone may have been more of a dynamo in some ways than a 20th century Albert Einstein—our pre-historic forebears performed the evolutionary heavy lifting that led to the swollen heads that we still avail ourselves of, at least until the inevitable decline predicted by Crabtree sets in.


Expansion of the human frontal cortex and endocranial volume, to which we likely owe our capacity for abstract thought, predominately occurred between 50 000 and 500,000 years ago in our prehistoric African ancestors, well before written language and before we had the modern voice-box to produce sophisticated verbal language, but after the first tools. Thus, the selective pressures that gave us our mental characteristics operated among nonverbal hunter-gatherers living in dispersed bands or villages, nothing like our present-day high-density, supportive societies.

In line with Crabtree’s take, the transition to survival through wiles—in place of speed and physical strength—required adaptations that appeared to rival or outpace the most lofty contemporary intellectual achievements like writing a symphony or cogitating on higher math. One small error in gauging the aerodynamics and gyroscopic stabilization of a spear and one of our would-be ancestors became a canape for a saber-tooth tiger.
Quote:

Many kinds of modern refined intellectual activity (by which our children are judged) may not necessarily require more innovation, synthesis, or creativity than more ancient forms: inventing the bow-and-arrow, which seems to have occurred only once about 40,000 years ago, was probably as complex an intellectual task as inventing language. Selection could easily have operated on common (but computationally complex) tasks such as building a shelter, and then computationally simple tasks, such as playing chess, became possible as a collateral effect.

Without the rigors of strong selection in our extended urban conglomerates—no more necessity of getting it right the first time on that spear throw—the slow but relentless decline of those 2,000 to 5,000 cognition-related genes has already begun—as this argument goes. Crabtree begins the first part of his essay by asserting that the average citizen from Athens circa 1,000 B.C.—or anyone from Africa, India, Asia or the Americas millenia back—would be among the “brightest and most intellectually alive of our colleagues and companions, with a good memory, a broad range of ideas, and a clear-sighted view of important issues”—personal qualities supplemented by an astonishing emotional aplomb. This hyper-fit type would have prevailed even before the rise of civilization:


A hunter–gatherer who did not correctly conceive a solution to providing food or shelter probably died, along with his/her progeny, whereas a modern Wall Street executive that made a similar conceptual mistake would receive a substantial bonus and be a more attractive mate. Clearly, extreme selection is a thing of the past.

Maybe this explains our fascination with post-apocalyptic Mad Max-style fantasies? But where’s the proof for Crabtree’s musings and what about contradictory evidence? Crabtree proposes a test of his hypothesis and he also dismisses the Flynn effect that suggests that we have been getting progressively smarter generation after generation. Better IQ scores, Crabtree posits, are not a result of natural selection, but rather may have resulted from getting rid of lead and other heavy metals from gasoline and paint, from elimination of hypothyroidism by putting iodine in salt and from learning how to take tests better. Notwithstanding the Flynn effect, our slow genetic decline continues apace.Much more at http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/2012/11/26/homo-sans-
sapiens-is-dumb-and-dumber-our-evolutionary-destiny/


It's an interesting concept, and if you put Six's theories into the mix, what do you get?

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Monday, November 26, 2012 7:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

The evolutionary progress of mankind can no longer be measured entirely with human beings. With the invention of ever-present computing and information devices, and the progressive integration of such devices, the human creature is becoming the sum of his own brain plus the information tools available to him. Instant access to data and immediate collaboration across the globe is making us less like individuals and more like hive minds in the arena of problem solving.

Humans aren't just themselves anymore. They are themselves+their computers+everyone they can contact+those people's computers. Traditional evolution and progression of the species has never seen anything like what we are becoming now. We can afford to be individually less capable in this new dynamic because we have access to much more brainpower than any individual could ever hope to hold in his braincase in the past.

I think some writers have called this effect 'singularity.' But whereas perhaps they envision this 'singularity' as meshing man and machine, I see it as meshing man with other men, too. Everyone connected to a common third consciousness, so to speak. A universe of information we can all access and use to communicate instantly with each other no matter when, no matter where.

Traditional IQ ratings are becoming meaningless.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, November 26, 2012 7:49 AM

BYTEMITE


This is turn of the 20th century Eloi versus Morlock get rid of the inferiors before it dilutes the genepool stuff. Despite the hopes of all the weird racial agendas out there, this is not a likely outcome. In other words, creating a master race and a slave race just ain't happening. Except for kicking people in the tail who are still trying to bring that about, we can stop worrying about this.

Quote:

absent the ceaseless pressures of natural selection experienced during the Paleolithic


There's still selection, and it's not towards dumber. While there might be mutations affecting the intellect, it's not going to take over, and humanity is not going to stop being sapiens. I mean, they're looking ethnocentrically at friggin' Americans and they're like there's no natural selection left? Bullshit. Plenty of natural selection here AND in less developed communities like nations in Africa, it's just the pressures are different, but none of them lead to dumbing down.

I can't even believe there are researchers still hanging on to this stuff. But I guess that's the usual controversy that happens in science when someone publishes something that challenges the entrenched ideas and interests. Go get 'em, Flynn.

Oh, and keep on mixing with different races too, the diversity actually helps us and prevents bottlenecking and inbreeding, and the intelligence factor between races is negligible.

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Monday, November 26, 2012 8:16 AM

STORYMARK







Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, November 26, 2012 8:42 AM

BYTEMITE


...I almost went off on you Storymark because from the title I thought it was a clip from that idiocracy movie again. Which is scientifically unsound, and very frustrating, and sometimes I think I'm a one person crusade against this issue.

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Monday, November 26, 2012 9:03 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
...I almost went off on you Storymark because from the title I thought it was a clip from that idiocracy movie again.



Uh... it is.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, November 26, 2012 9:49 AM

BYTEMITE


Noooo why do you hurt me so

sobbing

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Monday, November 26, 2012 9:58 AM

STORYMARK


I meant no hurt, but I also think there's a lot of truth in that clip. I don't think that genetics is a key factor in intellegence - but upbringing and familial influence sure as hell is - and that clip speaks to that point rather well.

I work with top honors students, and with kids who can barely read their own name. The one almost universal constant I see is the level of parental involvement - none of the top kids have parents who let them play Xbox all night while they party.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, November 26, 2012 10:00 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I meant no hurt, but I also think there's a lot of truth in that clip. I don't think that genetics is a key factor in intellegence - but upbringing and familial influence sure as hell is - and that clip speaks to that point rather well.

I work with top honors students, and with kids who can barely read their own name. The one almost universal constant I see is the level of parental involvement - none of the top kids have parents who let them play Xbox all night while they party.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



Oh. Okay, I can agree with that without agreeing with some of the other points that the movie makes.

(Still can't watch clips at work)

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Monday, November 26, 2012 10:02 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Are we speaking of the comedy film?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, November 26, 2012 4:02 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

Are we speaking of the comedy film?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz



Yes, specifically the opening sequence, in which an educated coule keeps putting off having children for various reasons, juxtaposed with a trailer trash family spawning like bunnies.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, November 26, 2012 4:26 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


Yes, specifically the opening sequence, in which an educated coule keeps putting off having children for various reasons, juxtaposed with a trailer trash family spawning like bunnies.





Aaaaand that's one of the points I disagree with.

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Monday, November 26, 2012 5:08 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


Yes, specifically the opening sequence, in which an educated coule keeps putting off having children for various reasons, juxtaposed with a trailer trash family spawning like bunnies.





Aaaaand that's one of the points I disagree with.



I agree its a bit of a generalization (not all who live in trailers are trash, an education does not equal parenting skill) but I also see it every day, so I know there is truth to it.






Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, November 26, 2012 5:31 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


Yes, specifically the opening sequence, in which an educated coule keeps putting off having children for various reasons, juxtaposed with a trailer trash family spawning like bunnies.





Aaaaand that's one of the points I disagree with.



I agree its a bit of a generalization (not all who live in trailers are trash, an education does not equal parenting skill) but I also see it every day, so I know there is truth to it.






Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



Hello,

The smartest man my father ever knew was a self-educated pauper from a broken home.

And we have all seen educated rich folks make remarkably idiotic decisions. Cable thrives on them.

There's more afoot here than breeding. But the movie had its moments.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, November 26, 2012 7:35 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


Yes, specifically the opening sequence, in which an educated coule keeps putting off having children for various reasons, juxtaposed with a trailer trash family spawning like bunnies.





Aaaaand that's one of the points I disagree with.



I agree its a bit of a generalization (not all who live in trailers are trash, an education does not equal parenting skill) but I also see it every day, so I know there is truth to it.






Hello,

The smartest man my father ever knew was a self-educated pauper from a broken home.



I have no doubt - and I bet he didn't have a half dzen illigitimate kids via different women, right? The video is about the guys who do - and don't bother with that pointless education stuff.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:03 AM

JONGSSTRAW


The human race continues to progress and excel in ways which take our knowledge and imagination to new limits. We've explored our solar system, and we've sent probes out into deep space. We've made great advances in science and medicine that have extended our longevity and improved the quality of life on Earth. Art and literature is flourishing, and each person is free to reach for their dreams. But our greatest achievement as a species, something even the wisest Krell could never have imagined has to be this:






>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>








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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 4:14 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I have no doubt - and I bet he didn't have a half dzen illigitimate kids via different women, right?


Hello,

He was one of the half dozen kids via different women. Sharp as a razor. Kind of guy who could've become one of the great minds if opportunity had been in alignment.

Shame, really.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, November 27, 2012 4:16 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Also see C. M. Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons", published in 1951.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

Read it here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23657356/The-Marching-Morons

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 5:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Hey, you know, maybe fertility itself is not an indication of low IQ? Low IQ correlates with high fertility, but large families do not correlate with low IQ. And Correlation is not Causation.

Overall the average IQ stays the same because on the macroscale genotypes in a population never fully disappear unless you kill them off. Genotypes will basically always manifest in a population at the same rate.

An example. If all the races breed together, everyone WON'T look the same. The genotype of the population would be 25% blonde, 50% brunette, and 25% black, because the genes mapping to skin colour and hair colour have a simple dominance, co-dominance, and recessive relationship. This will happen even if reproductive outliers of one particular race outbreed the others or breeds their genes into them by engaging in as many illegitimate partnerships as they can. The mix will STILL be 25% blonde, 50% brunette, and 25% black. The reproductive success of a subgroup will not have much impact relative to the greater population.

So even if most of the dumb people we're talking about are actually in fact mentally deficient and low functioning and it's all genetics as opposed to an education and socio-economic issue (which I DOUBT), and they have all these illegitimate partnerships and lots of children, you're not going to have a sudden skewing of the genepool towards dumb unless the hypothetical genes for low intelligence are all dominant. Which it's pretty clear to me, considering the obviously complex interactions at play here, they aren't.

Dumb people, by and large, should tend to produce average children, because dumb people and smart people aren't isolated populations and because that's the statistically most likely outcome for any pairing. Therefore the population remains average. A change in the fertility rate of either population has a pretty much negligible effect on the population at large, studies and computer models propagating the trends over numerous generations show about plus or minus one IQ point of difference.

Furthermore, once again socioeconomics and education have a better correlation with measured intelligence than fertility does. Focusing on fertility is basically focusing on the wrong factor - it's a side effect of the other two. And if education is such a major factor, that indicates there really isn't a whole lot of endemic stupidity in the population.

All of this is just mental pats on the back for people who think they're smart, blaming dumb people for the world's problems and shrugging and saying "What can I do? Dumb people outnumber smart people." Or worse, "Dumb people are going to destroy the world, we should remove dumb people until only my preferred smart group is left." Chances are, people who think they're very smart are actually just average.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 5:54 AM

AGENTROUKA


Beautiful post, Byte. I couldn't agree more!

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 5:59 AM

BYTEMITE


I'm sorry. I get testy about this. That movie drives me up the wall, people seem to quote it as near inevitability, but I feel it is a very inaccurate representation of population dynamics that demonstrates a poor understanding of principles of genetic inheritance. Fear mongering and unsubstantiated speculation and data skewed to fit a desired self-gratifying result is not SCIENCE.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 5:59 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Beautiful post, Byte. I couldn't agree more!



Hello,

With a reservation about hair/eye coloration, which is sometimes based on recessive genes that can indeed be reduced in frequency by having a non-homogenous gene pool, (according to my High School Biology teacher) I agree.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 6:07 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

With a reservation about hair/eye coloration, which is sometimes based on recessive genes that can indeed be reduced in frequency by having a non-homogenous gene pool, (according to my High School Biology teacher) I agree.


Ah, see, but that assumes a closed population. With modern travel there really aren't too many completely isolated populations left, and so the standard genetic frequencies would assert themselves given enough time.

If something happened where there was maybe a global flood that killed everyone shorter than a certain height, you would have a bottlenecking effect on the overall population. There would still be short people born again in time, but there would be a much reduced frequency. That is how some recessive traits become rare, if they directly reduce the survival rate (fatal mutations) or there was selection against that trait.

Frankly, I think what selection there is tends to reinforce normal or smarter, not dumber. But if there was no negative selection, we would not expect to see changes in the intelligence of the population. Particularly because we know that genes are not all there is to intelligence. It wasn't as though only the smartest in the paleolithic world survived you know, and that suddenly an entire subgroup of dumb humans has appeared and will overtake the rest of humanity because tigers are no longer killing them and eating them.

I also think that Flynn actually probably is more seeing a environmentally induced change in phenotypical intelligence as opposed to changes in genotypical intelligence, but I still enjoy how that paper stirred up the hornet's nest. I like to quote it to people in an offhand way when they say that the population is getting dumber.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:29 AM

BYTEMITE


Also: I would like to apologize for the first post I made, I did not intend to sound accusing towards Niki.

There have been times that I have disagreed with Niki about various concepts that are somewhat related to all this, such as certain schools of evolutionary psychology, and those disagreements came out in another thread recently.

But I think Niki's purpose in posting this thread was to feel out what we think about this issue and the study she linked to. So I was more ranting about the researchers in Niki's post than at Niki personally.

Sorry Niki.

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