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Originally posted by 1kiki:
BUT THAT ***IS*** HIS ARGUMENT.

His argument IS that people will SAY their intentions are well-meaning when they aren't.

But the situations are not at all equivalent. The 'problem' of voter fraud was non-existent - at best nebulous if you gave EVERY benefit of the doubt.


The problem of gun violence is real. It's obvious. It's brutal. it's heartbreaking. It is a REAL EVIDENT PROBLEM. To treat it like it's JUST LIKE voter fraud is an act of extreme dishonestly, cruelty, insanity. To try to make it an argument is worse.

And he seems to think that we are too stupid and too ignorant to understand the facts. That somehow if he's sly enough, subtle enough, we'll be sucked in to the argument that indeed, gun violence is JUST LIKE voter fraud and therefore the solutions to gun violence are JUST AS BAD as the ones to voter fraud.

Make no mistake - that IS his argument.

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Honestly the better argument was comparing with abortion, as that is more directly about life, death, and choice.

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Anyone who can observe the situation and want to keep things EXACTLY THE SAME

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Obviously there is something far more important to them than stooping gun violence and gun death.

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As for control over one's body, what AnthonyT doesn't seem to realize is that my freedom ends at his nose

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He pointed out that AnthonyT's absolutism was a psychological problem. I think we're seeing it play out.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
He is an enabler of violence. Frem is an enabler of violence. Geezer is an enabler of violence. Anyone who can observe the situation and want to keep things EXACTLY THE SAME in order to allow EXACTLY THE SAME VIOLENCE is a supporter of violence.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
OOOoohhh look! He's still digging!

BTW, love the edit job and his inability to respond to a complete argument.



ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
He is an enabler of violence. Frem is an enabler of violence. Geezer is an enabler of violence. Anyone who can observe the situation and want to keep things EXACTLY THE SAME in order to allow EXACTLY THE SAME VIOLENCE is a supporter of violence.

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We don't support violence you moron! Someone seriously needs to kick your ass.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
He's equating the the mendacity of the voter-ID folk with the heartbreak of the parents of those children. He's trivializing the real problem, negating the real grief, invalidating the real people who are living through this. And you think that's OK. That it's just a matter of explaining it, and that will make it good.

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HKC was right so long ago. He pointed out that AnthonyT's absolutism was a psychological problem. I think we're seeing it play out.

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And the consequence for Anthony of his fear-based argument is that he treats kiki about as poorly as I've seen him treat anyone.

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It's shocking. Anthony, that was a serious dick move on your part. Not clever. Not appropriate. To presume that she was too dumb to know exactly what you were doing and to persist in your nasty joke, not cool.

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And that dig about abortion, coming from my fellow XY, not cool, man! Not remotely.

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And jeez, it so did not win her over or serve your argument at all, did it? What do you think you're doing?

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Anthony, you got a style, y'know? And for the most part it works. Charming, funny, enlightening. But when you get into a particularly heated exchange with someone all it sounds like is snide, snide, snide.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I got that hours ago. All you're doing is reinforcing in my mind what as asshole he is. He equates the solution to a non-existent problem as being JUST LIKE the solution to a real problem. He's equating the the mendacity of the voter-ID folk with the heartbreak of the parents of those children. He's trivializing the real problem, negating the real grief, invalidating the real people who are living through this. And you think that's OK. That it's just a matter of explaining it, and that will make it good.

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Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
But I don't see the types of firearms available as the problem that is so desperately in need of change.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I am upset about what I see as a societal trance that believes we're essentially violent creatures. That idea makes me plenty angry because my life has been a living example of how a person with an extraordinarily violent upbringing can find the essential goodness in himself and in our species as a whole. I promise you, no one was there to teach me empathy, quite the contrary. Sometimes I really wonder how I was able to find empathy and compassion at all. But I did. So, I can, from time to time, feel obligated to speak my mind on the topic. I don't think my response to that lie about human nature is out of proportion, but I absolutely understand if you didn't understand WTF I was talking about or how I got there from what you said. It happens.

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I have tried to get him to define the far extremes of "allowable" guns, just to start a discussion, and all I get from him is OMG YOU WANNA TAKE ALL MY WEAPONS YOU'RE BAD! which I cannot see as anything short of a kind of psychosis.

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His fear of losing his symbol of manhood (and puh-lease don't tell me you haven't heard that analogy, Anthony, or that you haven't looked yourself in the mirror while you're gun stroking to exactly how perfect a penis-stroking metaphor it is)

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is so severe that he cannot bear any kind of discussion or possibility of compromise.

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No matter how many innocents die needlessly: we cannot separate limiting nukes from limiting pea shooters. One is absolutely necessary. One is not.

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Where's the line? Well, both sides have to be willing to talk or we won't find an appropriate dividing line.

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Anthony is not willing to talk. I find this enlightening, in a sad way, that such an interesting open mind is completely shut regarding this one matter.

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No compromise, no discussion, no way.

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Why is Anthony like this about this topic, and no other?

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You're a smart man. How can you not see how an assault rife is more of a problem in these situations than a pistol or a hunting rifle? Assault rifles are designed with killing multiple people in mind. That is there function.

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All right Anthony, setting aside the gun-as-manhood thing, (which I guess isn't evident unless you're a non-gun person coming across the gun measuring and comparing threads that crop up here time to time)

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let's talk limits.

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Obviously allowed: rifles that are not automatic and must be manually reloaded after two shots. Handguns that are easily concealable in purse or belt that carry 5-6 small caliber bullets, for self-defense.

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Obviously not allowed: any fully automatic weapon, any weapon that fires more than 10 bullets in a short amount of time with a short reload time (short meaning that a schoolroom full of 6 year old would have 0% chance of fleeing before the reload was done.) Uzis, rocket launchers. Not OK.

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What are your extremes? And again, for the love of TPTB, please do not go into the loving details of your personal favorites. What do you think is OBVIOUSLY a gun everyone should have a right to, and what it not?

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I will speak to you of limits, but understand that I do not consider the types of firearms available to be the principle problem when confronting the issue of madness and mass murder. I consider it, in fact, to detract from the point and take away from solving the actual problem.

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Let's start with: I agree with you. The type of firearm available isn't the principle problem when confronting the issue of madness and mass murder.

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It allows a single person (sane or not) a more or less efficient force multiplier with which to impose his or her will.... or insanity... on a larger group of others.

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What I find inexplicably strange is that two of three people who both claim that violence isn't "the answer" appeal to violence as "the solution". How do you explain that?

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Maybe if she had military training and hardware.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I wanted to address this first, because I hear the word assault rifle a lot.

I will respond to your other message presently.

I can see that an assault rifle would be more of a problem in these situations if they were used in these situations. However, assault rifles currently have restrictions that make them both difficult and time consuming to obtain while being cost prohibitive.

I think this is why legal assault rifles and other legal fully automatic weapons are rarely used in crime. As for the illegal ones, I'm not sure what reasonable steps can be taken against them. They are already illegal.

--Anthony

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When I'm talking about assault rifles in this case I'm taking about guns like the AR-15. They are designed for combat and are very efficient weapons for killing multiple people.

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When I'm talking about assault rifles in this case I'm taking about guns like the AR-15. They are designed for combat and are very efficient weapons for killing multiple people.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I continue to have misgivings, Geezer. Although perhaps some of your ideas are salvageable in regards to addressing the problem. Just not the forced confinement and treatment thing. Did you watch Dollhouse? See Sierra's backstory? Bad enough as the system currently is without giving MORE power for that.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You've taken a big step onto illogic. If frem and geezer follow your logic (haven't checked back into the thread yet to find out) they've followed the same Wile E Coyote step.

Let's start with: I agree with you. The type of firearm available isn't the principle problem when confronting the issue of madness. (mass murder is another problem.) What does the "type of firearm available" do?? It allows a single person (sane or not) a more or less efficient force multiplier with which to impose his or her will.... or insanity... on a larger group of others.

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And next month anybody with 20 grand and a hankerin for the latest gizmoz who haz never fired a gun in their life will be able to hit the bullz eye at that distance on their 1st shot.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

So to me the treatment option, even if sometimes involuntary, seems a less bad solution.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There is nothing magical about an AR-15. It is functionally identical to any semiautomatic rifle. So I am left to conclude that your issue is either with A) appearance, B) magazine capacity, or C) the semiautomatic action itself.

Which is it?

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Okay, and....

Do you need a 20 round mag for hunting, no. You also don't need it for home protection. You also don't need a folding stock or a pistol grip to hunt. The exceptions might be for someone that is disabled a pistal grip might be needed.

See all that can go into regulations very easily.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359]

Hello,

All of that DID go into regulations. The Assault Weapons ban, as previously mentioned, did not ban assault weapons. It regulated magazine size, style of stock, and attached accessories. It also banned some weapons that had a scary appearance or bad reputation, but which would not otherwise have been prohibited. Not being a retroactive ban, it didn't actually remove any of this stuff from circulation. It simply prevented additional such items from being manufactured or imported.

So, we're not talking about assault weapons. We are talking about banning various attachments and options on regular semiautomatic rifles.

So far, you list:

A) Banning pistol grips, which make shooting much more comfortable.
B) Banning folding stocks, which make rifles easier to stow.
C) Banning large magazines. (Shall we say a 10 bullet limit?)

Presumably you do not intend to outlaw semiautomatic weapons outright.

Are your new regulations proposed to be retroactive or will existing articles be grandfathered in?

Do you imagine any exceptions for Americans who can prove that they have completed a proficiency and safety course related to the weapons, or do you see such weapons as unnecessary, period?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is a real gun....

]

Hello,

One of my favorite fantasy weapons from sci-fi. :-)

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is a real gun....

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• 74 percent of NRA members and 87 percent of non-NRA gun owners support requiring criminal background checks of anyone purchasing a gun.

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• 79 percent of NRA members and 80 percent of non-NRA gun owners support requiring gun retailers to perform background checks on all employees - a measure recently endorsed by the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the trade association for the firearms industry.

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• 75 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors, including assault.

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• 74 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.

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• 68 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who do not have prior arrests for domestic violence.

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• 63 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants 21 years of age or older.

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• The NRA rank and file also supports barring people on terror watch lists from buying guns (71 percent)

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and believe the law should require gun owners to alert police to lost and stolen guns (64 percent).

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Why would you not be in favor of anyone wanting to buy a gun having to take a saftey course?

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I appologize, I did miss read that part.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359]

Well, I've been writing a lot of material, it's probably easy to miss a relevant word or two.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
All of that DID go into regulations. The Assault Weapons ban, as previously mentioned, did not ban assault weapons. It regulated magazine size, style of stock, and attached accessories. It also banned some weapons that had a scary appearance or bad reputation, but which would not otherwise have been prohibited. Not being a retroactive ban, it didn't actually remove any of this stuff from circulation. It simply prevented additional such items from being manufactured or imported.

So, we're not talking about assault weapons. We are talking about banning various attachments and options on regular semiautomatic rifles.

So far, you list:

A) Banning pistol grips, which make shooting much more comfortable.
B) Banning folding stocks, which make rifles easier to stow.
C) Banning large magazines. (Shall we say a 10 bullet limit?)

Presumably you do not intend to outlaw semiautomatic weapons outright.

Are your new regulations proposed to be retroactive or will existing articles be grandfathered in?

Do you imagine any exceptions for Americans who can prove that they have completed a proficiency and safety course related to the weapons, or do you see such weapons as unnecessary, period?

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I think we can talk about banning assault weapons, and those based on "true" assault weapons. We can also ban some modifications to allowed firearms.

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As for number of rounds, I would say limit to 5 for Rifles, 8 for shotguns, 10 for Pistols.

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Existing Gun could remain with the owner provided no one in the same home has any existing mental health issues. Those guns could not be sold or transferred to any other owner and would have to be turned in when the owner dies.

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Permits and safety classes should be required for all firearms.

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As well as full registration of each weapon. All sales would have to be made through a licensed dealer so that background checks, licenses and registrations can be checked.

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A license would also be required to buy ammo, and only be allowed to purchase of weapons registered to that license.

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