Guns, Guns, Guns. by FREMDFIRMA

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, I just really hate all the talk going around about people with mental illness not being allowed to own guns, or even be in a house where someone ELSE owns a gun. This isn't even a slippery slope; it's downright discrimination. Someone with a history of problems who has mental illness, or someone who SEVERAL independent psychiatrists think might be a risk, or some other caveat, is one thing. But to just deny EVERYONE who's ever sought treatment for a mental illness--which means we've been diagnosed because if you see a p-doc, you come out with a diagnosis, since almost nobody GOES to a p-doc unless something's wrong enough to make them want help, so we're immediately "mentally ill"--the ability to defend themselves? That's truly insane, and talk about stigmatizing us!

Just think about how many millions of Americans have been diagnosed with "Clinical Depression"... Just think about the VAST majority of us who deal with our disability in such a way that you'd never even know we HAVE one, and who are perfectly innocent, contributing members of society...

Anthony, I'll answer a couple of your questions:

Quote:
Would the owner's estate be credited for the value of the arms in question? And would the owner be fully compensated if they elected to surrender the weapon early?

I should think anyone would be compensated for any gun they turn in, ever.

Quote:
What is the purpose of a permit? Given that safety courses and background checks are part of your plan, what is the permit designed to accomplish?

I think a permit or license would be helpful in keeping track of who has what, and would help the police in the case of a crime. And yes, I'd want to limit any permit/license just like a registry: so that it could not be used except when investigating a crime with a court order.

Quote:
Do you realize that such a limit would outlaw several lever-action rifles from the late 19th century?

In my opinion any limitation on bullets would apply to modern weaponry, not to existing weapons. Just like the ban Feinstein is proposing, I'd "grandfather" in everything currently owned...I don't like it, mind you, but it makes sense. And for me, the number of rounds pertains to semi-automatic anything. Semi-auto weapons eat rounds and make mass murder easier if they don't have to be reloaded.

None of this is easy, would be accepted, or is possible, and I'm sure there are tons of ways around all of it. But in my opinion it would be a START at least, and better than doing nothing, for the sake of the future and at least making SOME kind of dent in the firepower we've seen abused.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:32 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
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permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.
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Quote:

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It would be wiser to have people complete a gun safety course before buying a gun.
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What is the difference between the two? What am I missing?

Hello,

Well, it seemed the 'permit' was referring to concealed weapons permits, which is a seperate issue from gun purchasing.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:50 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
no, Anthony, I wouldn't "be willing to accommodate some training or safety course that would allow someone to obtain prohibited weapons and/or accessories".

Hello,

This would seem to indicate that the 500,000+ police officers in this country would be held to the same standards as the rest of us. If so, I consider this a big step towards fairness and it proves a legitimate concern for the public safety. I could never understand how one could be concerned about inherently dangerous weapons and then want over half a million people to be able to run around with them.

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I propose we change "assault weapon" to "semi-automatic weapon", for clarity purposes.

Well, that's more specific, so I laud it. But does that mean you want to ban all semiautomatic weapons, or only those with certain features?

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I'm not sure what, aside from semi-autos, would be considered an assault weapon; please educate me if there are others.

Fully Automatic weapons are actual assault weapons. When you pull the trigger, they have the ability to fire more than one time. When you think of a modern military rifle, this is what you're thinking of. These weapons are currently legal only with extensive background checks, copious expenditures of money, and/or special permits.

Quote:
What do you think of the gun-show loophole?

You probably don't remember, but I have previously been willing to close this loophole. I just don't want gun lists accessible without a court order, in the investigation of a crime. (Which would ostensibly prevent someone from printing out lists of everyone armed in the neighborhood and going out to collect their weapons.)

Quote:
I think we already know your opinion of internet sale of guns, I seem to remember we discussed that one before--

I'm not sure what you're worried about with internet sales. You can pay for a gun online, but you have to go to a dealer and proceed through the normal background check before taking possession of it. The only guns exempt from this are antique style blackpowder weapons.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:51 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
the ability to defend themselves? That's truly insane, and talk about stigmatizing us!

Agreed. I said before, I'm not so sure the problem here is mental illness in general, but people with mental illness at some kind of breaking point. I think we need to address the issues that drive people to that breaking point.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:01 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I think a permit or license would be helpful in keeping track of who has what, and would help the police in the case of a crime.

Hello,

I'm not sure how a permit is helpful if you're going to conduct the background check anyway. I'm not sure how a permit helps investigation of a crime, either. Everyone is 'permitted' if they meet the criteria, so issuing physical permits seems redundant. What are they for, exactly?

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And yes, I'd want to limit any permit/license just like a registry: so that it could not be used except when investigating a crime with a court order.

This is a major issue for me, so I'm glad it's one you'd be willing to accept.

Quote:
In my opinion any limitation on bullets would apply to modern weaponry, not to existing weapons. Just like the ban Feinstein is proposing, I'd "grandfather" in everything currently owned...I don't like it, mind you, but it makes sense. And for me, the number of rounds pertains to semi-automatic anything. Semi-auto weapons eat rounds and make mass murder easier if they don't have to be reloaded.

I am particularly interested in a historical shooting sport that uses firearms styled after 100+ year antiques. The Winchester rifle of Wild West fame is one example. It had a tubular magazine that held 15 rounds. But this is not a removeable magazine that can be swapped out. Once empty, a person has to feed ammunition back into the rifle one bullet at a time. I'd want old-fashioned manually actuated weapons like this one to be excluded from a ban. They are not generally considered good weapons for mass murder because of how long it takes to reload them once they are discharged. Their lever has to be cranked after each shot. Their value lies primarily in sport shooting and heritage re-enactments. (Although they are also useful for hunting certain types of game.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_rifle

You've probably seen these rifles in Westerns.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:02 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
the ability to defend themselves? That's truly insane, and talk about stigmatizing us!

Agreed. I said before, I'm not so sure the problem here is mental illness in general, but people with mental illness at some kind of breaking point. I think we need to address the issues that drive people to that breaking point.

Hello,

I think I've heard "is a danger to themselves or others" before. That seems like a pretty common-sense measure of dangerous mental illness.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Agreed. I said before, I'm not so sure the problem here is mental illness in general, but people with mental illness at some kind of breaking point. I think we need to address the issues that drive people to that breaking point.

Okay, let's get this straight, nearly EVERYONE has mental health issues.
In this country nearly half of its populace voted for Romney, the other half suffers from depression, anxiety, whatever.
Being a little nuts in NO WAY should limit gun ownership any more than being allowed to drive a CAR.
Being batshit murderous should cancel BOTH, all right?

Identifying THAT is not easy....
Well, sometimes it is.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:18 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Identifying THAT is not easy....

Hello,

Agreed, and we must be careful to uphold people's liberties while we figure out how to make such determinations.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
we must be careful to uphold people's liberties while we figure out how to make such determinations.

On the other side of this equation, going cheap on NOT employing REAL PROFESSIONAL PEOPLE to watch monitors & respond to emergencies is a major problem IMO.
After 9-11, I would have expected an investment in this area, how stupidly wrong I was.
Again, all about saving costs to boost return.

Return our murdered children, you profit pigs.

Sorry; parent here.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:55 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
we must be careful to uphold people's liberties while we figure out how to make such determinations.
On the other side of this equation, going cheap on NOT employing REAL PROFESSIONAL PEOPLE to watch monitors & respond to emergencies is a major problem IMO.
After 9-11, I would have expected an investment in this area, how stupidly wrong I was.
Again, all about saving costs to boost return.

Return our murdered children, you profit pigs.

Sorry; parent here.

Hello,

I'm a parent, too.

In a way, so is Frem. He's 'adopted' many and done more to help kids than I ever will.

I'm not sure I want to live in a 'security state' any more than I want to live in a 'police state.' I don't look forward to having myriad human eyes on myriad security cameras, watching everything I do. Nor do I crave actual humans guarding every 100 feet of public space.

That is such a broken, awful world to imagine.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

I'm not sure I want to live in a 'security state' any more than I want to live in a 'police state.' I don't look forward to having myriad human eyes on myriad security cameras, watching everything I do.

Tony, dude, I'm talking about schools- airports too. It's not a 'security state', just secure areas I'm talking. Am I wrong here in your opinion? Really... I kind of agree with you for the most part I believe.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:13 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

I'm not sure I want to live in a 'security state' any more than I want to live in a 'police state.' I don't look forward to having myriad human eyes on myriad security cameras, watching everything I do.
Tony, dude, I'm talking about schools- airports too. It's not a 'security state', just secure areas I'm talking. Am I wrong here in your opinion? Really... I kind of agree with you for the most part I believe.

Hello,

The airports I've been to are teeming with security. Law enforcement officers, too.

Schools? Well, I have to be honest with you. I get a skeevy feeling thinking of a passel of security dudes watching kids on banks of monitors.

As for physical security... the schools in my area have actual law enforcement officers on site. Part of the response to school violence, I imagine. So I guess the trend just hasn't hit small towns, yet.

But yeah, I thought you wanted increased security everywhere. More cameras everywhere. More eyes everywhere.

It sounded creepy.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:16 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

I think I illustrated pretty well that the term 'assault weapon' and 'based on assault weapon' is fairly meaningless, and that you probably need to create a criteria based on concrete features you consider dangerous, not the word 'assault weapon.'

Okay, how about any weapon that was designed to be the main weapon of a foot solider in combat? I think with some fringe exceptions everyone has a pretty good idea of what an assault rifle is.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:I don't quite understand these limits. What inspired you to choose them? Do you realize that such a limit would outlaw several lever-action rifles from the late 19th century? Or did you intend the rifle limit to apply exclusively to semiautomatic rifles, and not manually actuated arms?

I thing you could make an exception for older lever action rifles. Why 5? It is far more than you need in a rifle to hunt or protect live stock.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:Would the owner's estate be credited for the value of the arms in question? And would the owner be fully compensated if they elected to surrender the weapon early?

I don't know about fully but I think there can be some compensation.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:What is the purpose of a permit? Given that safety courses and background checks are part of your plan, what is the permit designed to accomplish?

It would be serve much the same purpose as a drivers license. The permit could be required to purchase ammo and list each firearm owned. Plus it would be proof that a background check and safety course have been passed.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:Would you be willing to limit access to the registry so that it could not be used except when investigating a crime with a court order?

No. The registry would also be crossed referenced with other data bases. So if your crazy uncle Leon moves in with you it should trigger a warning that someone with mental health problems now lives with you. At that point you should have to make a choice the guns move or Leon does. It should also work with individuals who have been convicted of violent crimes.

In the past I might have just called for locks, but I think we are past than now.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:Is this license the aforementioned permit?

Yes.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:Would you be willing to accommodate some training or safety course that would allow someone to obtain prohibited weapons and/or accessories? Or do you consider the prohibited weapons so inherently injurious to the public safety that they should not be allowed under any circumstances or exceptions?

I would, but they would be even stricter. I can see shooting Ranges being able to be certified and allow people to shoot normally prohibited weapons. Much like some do now. I think we should look and make sure their security is such that a single individual could not access those weapons and go on a spree. Or ensure all employees get training on recognizing potential warning signs.

I could also see individuals getting some restricted weapons if they go through an extensive process to do so. Perhaps even have to submit to psychological evaluations and inspections on how the weapons are secured.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:27 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
It would be serve much the same purpose as a drivers license. The permit could be required to purchase ammo and list each firearm owned. Plus it would be proof that a background check and safety course have been passed.

Hello,

I don't understand why people should see a list of all weapons I own. It is no business of the clerk at the store nor even an officer of the law unless I am charged with a crime. And in that case, these weapons are registered under your plan and could be looked up by a relevant authority.

In addition, you have specified a background check to be conducted for each purchase, so having a physical license declaring that I have passed a background check is of no value.

I may be able to understand the value of carrying proof of completion of a safety course. Unless you intend such information to be registered with the government as well, in which case why am I carrying a permit?

Quote:

No. The registry would also be crossed referenced with other data bases. So if your crazy uncle Leon moves in with you it should trigger a warning that someone with mental health problems now lives with you. At that point you should have to make a choice the guns move or Leon does. It should also work with individuals who have been convicted of violent crimes.

In the past I might have just called for locks, but I think we are past than now.

I firmly disagree with all of this. You are advocating tracking the movement of citizens, now. This is invasive and abusive and you completely lose me here. No agreement.

This sort of thing is why people like me get nervous when the government collects information about its citizens. If you can't guarantee the sanctity of that information, why should anyone agree to hand it over?

This is a bridge too far.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I can see shooting Ranges being able to be certified and allow people to shoot normally prohibited weapons.

Kind of like allowing people to smoke outdoors?

An addiction?

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:46 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I don't understand why people should see a list of all weapons I own. It is no business of the clerk at the store nor even an officer of the law unless I am charged with a crime. And in that case, these weapons are registered under your plan and could be looked up by a relevant authority.

It is because it would signify ammo you could purchase and it would allow officers to make sure any weapons in your possession are registered to you. This is not far fetched as with just your name I can look up what vehicles you have registered now and in the past.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:In addition, you have specified a background check to be conducted for each purchase, so having a physical license declaring that I have passed a background check is of no value.

No, in fact once you pass the check all you would need is your permit to purchase a new firearm. It would make things easier. Of course you do something to get your permit revoked and then you have issues.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:I may be able to understand the value of carrying proof of completion of a safety course. Unless you intend such information to be registered with the government as well, in which case why am I carrying a permit?

For the same reasons you carry your drivers license which is also registered. Right now in most states you need a permit to carry or own a pistol so this is not far out.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:I firmly disagree with all of this. You are advocating tracking the movement of citizens, now. This is invasive and abusive and you completely lose me here. No agreement.

This sort of thing is why people like me get nervous when the government collects information about its citizens. If you can't guarantee the sanctity of that information, why should anyone agree to hand it over?

This is a bridge too far.

Don't want to be tracked, don't buy a gun. Many state already do some of this if you have a pistol and the permit to go with it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

I don't understand why people should see a list of all weapons I own.

Hey Tony, welcome to big brother. We have to have car insurance, now we have to have health insurance, is gun insurance a stretch?

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:59 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
It is because it would signify ammo you could purchase and it would allow officers to make sure any weapons in your possession are registered to you. This is not far fetched as with just your name I can look up what vehicles you have registered now and in the past.

Hello,

This makes no sense to me. Any registered firearms are registered, so the firearms can be checked to be sure they belong to me if they surface in connection to a crime. I need no permit for this.

If there is going to be a check conducted at the time of purchase, then the clerk needs no permit and certainly no list of my weapons. He is checking to see if I can buy 500 rounds of .380 ACP. The answer is Yes or No. I need no permit for this, and certainly no permit that lists my firearms.

Quote:
No, in fact once you pass the check all you would need is your permit to purchase a new firearm. It would make things easier. Of course you do something to get your permit revoked and then you have issues.

Oh... I see you are proposing a system that is in some ways less secure than the present one. Nobody ever checks to see if the permit is valid. Nobody will ever know if my permit is revoked because they are not doing checks. Carry on.

Quote:
For the same reasons you carry your drivers license which is also registered. Right now in most states you need a permit to carry or own a pistol so this is not far out.

In most states you don't need a permit to own a pistol. That is rare. You keep insisting on this permit and it is not only unnecessary but it is a bad idea.

Quote:
Don't want to be tracked, don't buy a gun.

Or better yet, reject this terrible proposal. Tracking gun owners and people diagnosed with mental health issues, seeing who is living with whom, subtracting rights when the wrong people live together...

I think you're better off just suspending one or more Constitutional amendments. This stuff is all terrible. Just Terrible.

I can not find common ground with you on this issue if this is what you think is valid and just.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tony, you once again fail to find common ground with a lot of thoughtful, reasonable people. That should give you pause to question why you find yourself on one end of the spectrum with rappy, wulf, hero, and other incomprehensible people. Not the first time, either. The last time, you left for a long, long while after a particularly prolonged pro-gun rant. (Yes, it was a rant.)

And I have to wonder why it is that you cannot set aside your terrible paranoia long enough to comprehend that the parents of these dead children are now even more distraught than you, and that you in some way have placed your fear and your imaginary revolution above the pain that these people feel now, and will continue to feel for years to come. What a terrible place to be, where you can't set aside your own concerns long enough to step into someone else's shoes for even a moment.

I'm not saying that you're wrong or that you're right, but your emotions are driving your thinking into such an unbalanced state that I do not believe you can be rational (rational: to ratio, to measure one against the other) on this topic.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I think Anthony has been extremely rational, and prolly better at communicating the essentials than anyone else mighta been.
You just don't want to HEAR it.

Which is fine.
I wanted to hold y'all up a minute, TRY to get you to stop and think, and maybe point out the slippery little slope underneath that first little "just one regulation" game - kinda like they hedged in Abortion under one little reg, and another, and another, and another, and another - a practice many of you are bloody well aware of, and yet seem to be advocating here.
And you could at least admit it.

I don't blame most of you for this, as your intentions are good - but the road to hell is paved with those, and there ARE jackboots waiting eagerly for folks like you to innocently lay down the first card of that encroachment so that they can spam the deck after.

Therefore I felt it morally necessary to point this out, to revoke that ignorance, to point out the logical consequences, but if you wish to engage in some kind of magical thinking and assumption of pure motives and no one is eeeever going to misuse this gimme you're handing out, well, okay, sure, right...

What's left to talk about ?

-Frem

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

I wanted to hold y'all up a minute, TRY to get you to stop and think, and maybe point out the slippery little slope underneath that first little "just one regulation" game

You think if we allow a ban on military grade guns, they'll find a way to make more ordinary guns fall into that category? Or maybe they'll ram through a mandatory gun insurance like with cars? Ridiculous gun registration fees?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:29 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
The last time, you left for a long, long while after a particularly prolonged pro-gun rant. (Yes, it was a rant.)

Hello,

I'm sorry you feel that I ranted.

I went away because I felt personally insulted, and rather than exchange angry, hurtful words, I decided to cool off and let the matter go. I was personally and vulgarly insulted in this thread, too, but I was better prepared for it this time. I have learned that the rational thinkers in the gun control crowd sometimes lose emotional control while explaining to me how emotionally driven I am.

Given that you think I have not been trying to find accommodation with those on the other side of this issue, I'm at a loss. I have invested a great deal of time and effort into reaching accommodation and common ground. Regardless, I am viewed as immovable and unreasonable. Or to be precise, "unbalanced." Thank you, Signy.

As for not being able to put my feet into someone else's shoes... I find this to be a distinct failing of my opponents, and especially those who advocate sweeping government power without wondering about its effect on people who are not them.

I will bow out of this now, because after what I considered a formidable effort to find common ground, I have been met with this unfortunate judgment.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:30 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
This makes no sense to me. Any registered firearms are registered, so the firearms can be checked to be sure they belong to me if they surface in connection to a crime. I need no permit for this.

The purpose of the permit would be so that you can own the weapons, and all firearms should be registered. Don't what a physical permit. That is fine, the police could use a searchable data base.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:If there is going to be a check conducted at the time of purchase, then the clerk needs no permit and certainly no list of my weapons. He is checking to see if I can buy 500 rounds of .380 ACP. The answer is Yes or No. I need no permit for this, and certainly no permit that lists my firearms.

I was envisioning more a card like a driver license that a clerk could scan to see if you could buy the ammo.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:Oh... I see you are proposing a system that is in some ways less secure than the present one. Nobody ever checks to see if the permit is valid. Nobody will ever know if my permit is revoked because they are not doing checks. Carry on.

No, it would be checked each time. A permit number or scannable permit card would be easier than going by name and would lean to less mistakes.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:In most states you don't need a permit to own a pistol. That is rare. You keep insisting on this permit and it is not only unnecessary but it is a bad idea.

Your right, you just need one to carry it in most states. So I guess if you want to buy a pistol and simply leave it at home that is good for you.

If a person needs to get a license to drive you should damn well need the like to own a gun.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:Or better yet, reject this terrible proposal. Tracking gun owners and people diagnosed with mental health issues, seeing who is living with whom, subtracting rights when the wrong people live together...

I think you're better off just suspending one or more Constitutional amendments. This stuff is all terrible. Just Terrible.

I can not find common ground with you on this issue if this is what you think is valid and just.

Fine, but I will vote and support ideas like this. As I said if you don't want to be on a database listing your guns don't buy any. They are not required for you to live your life.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

TONY- I was hoping we could all (not just you) take a breather and maybe come back to this is a little while. Yes, you have been insulted, and I feel sorry for that.

FREM.... the slippery slope argument? Really??? When we are facing a tragedy, and have actually been bleeding to death over the years due to gun violence, and I specifically asked that we look at this and be REALISTIC, and see whether or not our vaunted ideologies are IN FACT producing the desired results, you climb up on the slippery slope argument? Hate to say it, but that sounds just like rappy's Saddam had WMD and they might have gone to Syria. When you have to point to imaginary revolutions as a counter to the blood flowing in the classrooms and the streets, then you have slipped out of the real world and into someplace else.

I'd like to bring this argument back to REAL costs and REAL benefits, if at all possible.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 8:42 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Anthony, I, too, think you have made a serious effort at compromise in the past couple of pages. One person's opinion doesn't reflect all of us, please bear that in mind. For myself, I've been surprised you would accept as MANY accommodations as you have expressed you would.

Frem, I let you out of this discussion because, while I understand where your paranoia comes from, I don't think it is logical, so I won't respond to the things you wrote. Let's just agree to disagree.

Anthony:

Quote:
I could never understand how one could be concerned about inherently dangerous weapons and then want over half a million people to be able to run around with them.

We're back to that "we should have as many and the same weapons as the police". Sorry, that argument fails on it's face for me. It's the police's JOB to keep the peace--and yeah, there are bad ones, there are in every facet of life. But the vast majority of them are well-trained people who are good at their job, not "jackboots". In my opinion, firepower which enables them to overpower robbers, etc., is necessary for them to have the upper hand at dealing with crime. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote:
But does that mean you want to ban all semiautomatic weapons, or only those with certain features?

All semi-autos and autos. It is the ability to fire in rapid sequence which has nothing to do with hunting, nor does it particularly have anything to do with self-defense, only with killing as many as possible in the shortest time possible.

I didn't know automatic weapons were legal, but apparently they are, tho' difficult to own. That shocks the hell out of me.

Quote:
It is legal to own an automatic weapon, but it’s not easy. Automatic weapons are "Class III" weapons, and are titled much like cars are. Most firearms dealers do not have a Class III FFL. The title transfer fee is hundreds of dollars, and you need written permission from your local police chief or county sheriff.

Individuals not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State, or local law may lawfully acquire an NFA firearm in one of three ways:

1. A registered owner of an NFA firearm may apply to ATF for approval to transfer the firearm to another person residing in the same State or to a Federal firearms licensee in another State;
2. An individual may apply to ATF for approval to make and register an NFA firearm (except for a machine-gun); or
3. An individual may inherit a lawfully registered NFA firearm. http://askville.amazon.com/legal-citizen-posess-automatic-rifle-M16/An
swerViewer.do?requestId=2723819

I did not know that was the case. I am DEFINITELY against that!!! I don't know, but are police even allowed automatic weapons??

I didn't know you had to go to a dealer to pick up a gun purchased through the internet. In that case, I withdraw my exception.

I'm glad to hear you're in favor of closing the gun-sale loophole--no, I didn't remember; there are so many ins and outs of this issue and we've discussed it so many times and at such length, I tend to forget a lot.

As far as I'm concerned, "assault weapon" = anything automatic or semi-automatic. There is no logical reason for people to own either of those, either for hunting or self-defense. I do remember all the bullshit in one discussion about being able to defend oneself with a semi-auto, but the reasons put forth were bullshit, in my estimation.

Please don't let one person reflect everyone's opinion of you, Anthony. While I do agree with Sig on some of her points, I don't agree with how she's put them forward. But you of all people MUST know that the gun issue, just like religion and politics, makes people more emotional--ON BOTH SIDES--than other issues. I regret how you've been treated in this thread too, but I know from personal experience that a sense of frustration, perhaps more than anything else, triggers ME into emotionality and anger, and I'm sure it does for others. I had that sense of frustration climb while reading the first couple of pages of this thread, but it dropped to nothing in the last couple.

I, for one, do appreciate your efforts, especially as they have changed my mind about your adamancy about your rights. While I still believe you are overly-sensitive to anything restricting any right, I'm gratified to know my impression was wrong about just HOW overly-sensitive you are.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:03 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
I, for one, do appreciate your efforts, especially as they have changed my mind about your adamancy about your rights. While I still believe you are overly-sensitive to anything restricting any right, I'm gratified to know my impression was wrong about just HOW overly-sensitive you are.

Is... that a bad thing?

I mean, if you're gonna argue about something, shouldn't you argue if you think your rights are being taken away? I've not sure where sensitivity or over-sensitivity comes in.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:43 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Frem,

Seriously. Just you and me and the water cooler: there is no slippery slope here, because no one is actually gonna take your guns away. Sure, all manner of heartbroken and well-intentioned-but-naive citizens may want to ban guns, but you and I know that would be an impossible task in this country. You know it would take open warfare, ongoing raids on civilian homes to seize every gun. And you yourself have noted, and I think quite rightly, the excremely dangerous and profitable black market INCREASE in guns that would ensue.

After the five alarm disaster that has been the War on Drugs, do you seriously imagine that our ever-practical President is gonna launch a sure to be even more disasterous War on Guns? Let's be frank: the War on Drugs has been allowed to continue because it has from its inception targeted minorities whom most people don't care a lick about. But a War on Guns would be a war on white people. You REALLY think President Obama is gonna go there???

Our nation, for better or worse, for richer or poorer, is married to the gun. Those who wish to outlaw guns in this country have no idea what they're talking about, do they?

No amount of regulation on guns in this country, short of open warfare with its citizenry is gonna accomplish a prohibition on guns. Do you honestly think that the folk who naively call for a gun ban now, would stand for our government fighting a war on its citizens for their guns?

Look: let's be real. A lot of the public sentiment on this issue right now is just that: sentimental. Don't you know that THE MOMENT our government opens fire on ordinary white citizens whose only crime is the posession of guns, the sentimental American people would be outraged???

Anarchists gotta stop thinking like it's 1914. As a tool to ensure freedom in the 21st century, the computer has eclipsed the gun. How much shootin' has Julian Assange done? All this noise and whatever comes down in terms of actual gun legislation ain't gonna change the game. The game's been changed for a long time now.

As far as I can tell, you and Anthony are tilting at windmills here.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:17 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
We're back to that "we should have as many and the same weapons as the police". Sorry, that argument fails on it's face for me. It's the police's JOB to keep the peace--and yeah, there are bad ones, there are in every facet of life. But the vast majority of them are well-trained people who are good at their job, not "jackboots". In my opinion, firepower which enables them to overpower robbers, etc., is necessary for them to have the upper hand at dealing with crime. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm not sure how armed regular police are in the US. I think the police here are now armed with semi automatic pistols. I am not happy about them being armed. Personally I prefer the idea of general police not being armed with guns, and having specialist armed squads to deal with armed situations, much like the English model.

Not sure if that would work in the US where there is so many weapons around, and not likely to be reduced significantly even if some restrictions apply. But I think Anthony does have a point about having some equity between police weapons and public weapons. Anthony, I wonder if that applies to the military as well in your view?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:30 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Niki- You have said that no amount of training should allow an exception to the ban. Then you say that police have the training needed to use banned weapons. You say that the banned weapons have no self defense value, and then say that police need the weapons to overcome robbers. There is a disconnect here.

Magons - It's nice that someone else understands my feelings. I understand that the military must contend with threats that demand arms superiority. That's fine, as long as no military forces are ever used against the American people and they never take these prohibited weapons into civilian areas. I make a distinction between the constabulary and the military, both in allowed arms and allowed duties.

If this is a public health/public safety issue, as is often argued, then you do not want half a million policemen running around with weapons which are deemed so dangerous to the public that a curtailing of Constitutional rights is seen to be warranted.

That's about all I have to add to my argument, which I add out of respect to those who have respected me.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:49 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Niki- You have said that no amount of training should allow an exception to the ban. Then you say that police have the training needed to use banned weapons. You say that the banned weapons have no self defense value, and then say that police need the weapons to overcome robbers. There is a disconnect here.

There is no disconnect. I said no amount of training of individual citizens. Police training is done repeatedly, they are regulated and tested, it's their job to know the ins and outs of the law, when to shoot, who to shoot, and they face such situations with far more regularity than the average citizen ever faces them at all.

The average citizen, however much training they got, would not use that training on a regular basis, would not have to face testing and retraining on a regular basis, and has little knowledge of the law. You are saying there is no difference between policemen and average citizens. That is a false equivalency.

The same is true for self-defense. Aside from the fact that I DID NOT SAY the banned weapons had no value as far as self-defense for the police, I said, as you noted, when it comes to robbers. Beyond that, I seem to recall an instance in L.A. where the robbers were better armed than the police...yes, here it is on Wikipedia:

Quote:
Local patrol officers at the time were typically armed with their personal 9 mm or .38 Special pistols, with some having a 12-gauge shotgun available in their cars. Phillips and Matasareanu carried illegally modified fully automatic AKMs and an AR-15 rifle with high capacity drum magazines and ammunition capable of penetrating police body armor. They also wore body armor of their own. Since the police handguns could not penetrate the bank robbers' body armor, the patrol officers' bullets were ineffective. SWAT eventually arrived with rifles powerful enough to penetrate the body armor. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their capabilities in similar situations in the future.

Because of the large number of injuries, rounds fired, weapons used, and overall length of the shootout, it is regarded as one of the longest and bloodiest events in US police history. This incident would later lead to California enforcing a highly restrictive law on firearms, including the controversial "10-round magazine-only" law for most firearms owned by state residents.

So you would rather have the police LEGALLY restricted to lesser weapons because that's what the citizenry is LEGALLY allowed to have--or you would rather have ALL the citizenry allowed to have assault weapons because that's what the police have. The police have to deal with people who have illegal weapons; they should have superior force to deal with them. Regular citizens do not need the assault weapons for any reason.

Note that even the police restrict those sorts of weapons to their SWAT teams, so obviously even they believe assault weapons aren't a good thing to have every regular policeman carry. But you apparently want to arm them all that way, as well as any citizen who wants to be equally armed?

If you cannot see the contradictions in the above, there are no grounds for communication. I've heard you use this argument before and, in my opinion, this is one of the signs of your bias, that you can never see the difference. You CHOOSE to equate citizens with police, and I recognize that some of your thinking comes from distrust of police and government. But I find it frustrating that you cannot see the difference between the police forces we train to protect us and the average man on the street--or even a well-trained citizen. There is a difference.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:53 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

By the way, Anthony. You dissed someone's remark about guns and "manhood", either in this thread or another. I would like to offer as my rebuttal an ADVERTISEMENT for the AR-15:

That SHOULD settle the issue. If the company MANUFACTURING the Bushmaster chooses to ADVERTISE it as something which makes men more "manly", then they must believe (or recognize that people who would be attracted to the gun believe) it is related to their "manhood". N'est-ce pas?

ETA: And if you think THIS advertisement doesn't appeal to the sort of person who imagines himself some kind of "soldier":

Then what can I say?

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:03 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
That SHOULD settle the issue. If the company MANUFACTURING the Bushmaster chooses to ADVERTISE it as something which makes men more "manly", then they must believe (or recognize that people who would be attracted to the gun believe) it is related to their "manhood". N'est-ce pas?

Hello,

Does that mean if I find advertisements for products that are sexist, then I can make misogynistic, sexist statements about women and they will be validated by the advertisement?

What a rediculous argument.

You should find such an advertisent as inappropriate as I do. Instead, you embrace it as the proper way to think about men. And you extrapolate from it that it is appropriate to say that I look at myself in the mirror and stroke my penis-stand-in firearms in masturbatory fashion? When did you start getting your social standards from the Bushmaster company?

If colorful metaphors and impossible body positions were ever warranted, they'd be warranted now.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:16 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Beyond that, I seem to recall an instance in L.A. where the robbers were better armed than the police...yes, here it is on Wikipedia:

Hello,

If you read the rest of that article, you'll learn that the robbers were taken out by being shot in unarmored parts of their bodies. No assault rifles were actually used to penetrate their armor. There was a much more deadly incident in Florida with the FBI and bank robbers. FBI agents actually died. They took out the shooter with conventional arms and reassessed what caliber they should carry.

Even if you decide a rifle is needed, it need not be the styles of rifles you wish to ban. They can choose from types of rifles you are satisfied to leave available for public consumption.

A weapon can't be so unsafe that it needs to be removed from ownership, and then be put into the hands of half a million people who live and work in the communities that need protection from these weapons.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:21 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Niki,

Do you really, I mean, REALLY, think our friend Anthony T of Arizona is the kind of man who holds his gun up in the mirror and fondles the thing? How do you not realize how utterly offensive that is to say about anyone whom you otherwise seem to respect? Of course Anthony is aware of the phallic nature of pistols. Who isn't?

Please, do you honestly think you are gonna have any more luck convincing Anthony that he's sexually fetishizing his firearms, than he has had convincing you that the right to bear arms is the one which safeguards all the rest?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:13 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
the ability to defend themselves? That's truly insane, and talk about stigmatizing us!

Agreed. I said before, I'm not so sure the problem here is mental illness in general, but people with mental illness at some kind of breaking point. I think we need to address the issues that drive people to that breaking point.

Hello,

I think I've heard "is a danger to themselves or others" before. That seems like a pretty common-sense measure of dangerous mental illness.

You heard it from me, at least. I know that we'll run into trouble when called upon to determine the criteria for "danger to themselves and others", but it seems a start.

For example, 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(4)states that "It shall be unlawful for any person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has
been committed to a mental institution; to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

18 U.S.C. 922(g) is an interesting read, as it lays out who is prohibited from posessing a firearm, including convicted felons, drug abusers, illegal aliens, folks under a restraining order, or those convicted of domestic violence. A good bit of the stuff folks talk about when they mention getting guns out of the hands of criminals is already in Section 922.

Also interesting is that Federal prosecutions for violations of 18 U.S.C. 922 (all of it, not just (g)), have dropped by 28% between 2006 and 2010. extrapolating from the figures in the report cited below, there were around 7,000 Sect. 922 prosecutions in 2011. When you figure how many felons, drug abusers, etc. are probably arrested while in possession of a firearm every year, it makes you kind'a wonder.
http://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/249/

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:40 PM

I own more guns than I can easily count.

But most are phasers, some are Galactica & Star Wars blasters, three are airsoft Bond PPK's.
To me, guns are props from movies & TV, and as violent as my upbringing was, I've never felt the need for a projectile weapon that can actually put a hole in anyone.
I do however own 3 real weapons- a tonfa, a pair of nunchaku and a Samurai sword, all hard to misfire or cause multiple deaths in seconds with.
The whole 'gun culture' thing is lost on me.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:55 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I grant you, it's much harder to kill multiple people with a Samurai sword (katana).

That being said, a Samurai sword is a tool explicitly designed to kill people. This is one criteria oft proposed for the banning of weapons.

ETA: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501184/Samurai-swords-banned-s
pate-horrific-sword-murders.html

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

I grant you, it's much harder to kill multiple people with a Samurai sword (katana).

That being said, a Samurai sword is a tool explicitly designed to kill people. This is one criteria oft proposed for the banning of weapons.

ETA: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501184/Samurai-swords-banned-s
pate-horrific-sword-murders.html

Wow. So when people start being killed by forks, those will be outlawed as well...

I once got stopped by a police officer who searched my backpack & asked me why I was in possession of a pair of scissors. Hair cutting, DUDE.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
"It shall be unlawful for any person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has
been committed to a mental institution; to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

And now pens must be banned.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:44 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr

This iz the ZOL inc. SoDB3 sawed off double barrel shotgun with a scope & lazer aim

It firez ZOL KLoBR spent uranium square grain buckshot roundz. You can take 2 seperate shots or pull both triggerz at the same time, depending on how big uv a hole you need to make in a ciderblock wall to drive your truck thru. It's effective range iz 20 feet for that purpose, or you can get a large crowd very mad at you for up to 100 yardz.

It kicks like a clydesdale with rabiez and the stock iz just ruff sawed off like the barrelz, so the manufacturer recomendz bracing it against a solid surface, such az a truck bumper.

It's been described by customerz az 'a sorta directional grenade' and 'a ready to launch lawsuit' and iz the 1st weapon ever to get a negative 5 star rating from Soldier of Fortune magazine.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:50 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I prefer my stagecoach gun.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I prefer my stagecoach gun.

You have a pretty floral bonnet to go with that?

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 4:39 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:

You have a pretty floral bonnet to go with that?

Hello,

Sadly, no. But my wife has a Jayne hat.

It's a very cunning hat. I'd share pictures here, but alas, ill-intentioned people frequent these forums. Suffice to say that she is adorable in her Jayne hat.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:02 PM

BYTEMITE

JO753: Actually pretty funny.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2012 8:25 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr

Awe, shucks. I luv you to, Byte.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:24 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I own more guns than I can easily count.

But most are phasers, some are Galactica & Star Wars blasters, three are airsoft Bond PPK's.

Sorry, Chris, but you own toys that look like guns.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:39 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:
But does that mean you want to ban all semiautomatic weapons, or only those with certain features?

All semi-autos and autos. It is the ability to fire in rapid sequence which has nothing to do with hunting, nor does it particularly have anything to do with self-defense, only with killing as many as possible in the shortest time possible.

Hmm.

From earlier.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Just as we can apparently never, never get through to Anthony and Frem that nobody wants to take away their guns....

So apparently, despite your earlier statement, you do want to take away people's guns. Your "common-sense" restrictions would take about half of mine.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:56 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I was more concerned that "killing as many as possible in the shortest time possible" was a valid role for law enforcement.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:43 AM