Guns, Guns, Guns. by FREMDFIRMA

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Got a dental appointment so not got time to read this whole thread. But I see I was misunderstood: I put up the advertisement to show that Anthony's previous dismissal of the idea that guns have to do with "manliness" in people's perception. I was saying NOTHING about Anthony himself; I'm amazed anyone thought I was. I was refuting his previous dismissal by showing that either manufacturers or ad companies believe that the public sees a gun as a symbol of manhood. NOTHING more.

I'll read the rest of the thread when I get back, I just needed to clarify that.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:27 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Niki,

The misandrous comments were directed both generally at all gun owners and also specifically at me. That you should have tried to uphold them as valid when I have so frequently defended you from misogyny struck me as a particularly hurtful betrayal.

One need go no farther than my signature line to see that I do not like this kind of bias. I won't have it. Not at you. Not at your gender. Not at the millions of hobbyist shooters out there, many of whom are women. Not at me personally, nor me as a stand-in for bias against the entire gender.

Mr. Raptor has tried to 'revoke' the so-called 'man-card' because a man was seen to weep. Now you have tried to hold up a gun-advertisement as a good representation of the popular opinion on what it means to be a man. I reject it. The 'popular opinion' is wrong. I weep. I like the Sound of Music and Mary Poppins. I enjoyed the latest Rambo film. I love openly and without shame. I enjoy the art of using weapons. I am a man. I am a human.

I will never reduce you or your gender to a caricature of womanhood. Certainly not on purpose, and if I ever do it thoughtlessly it will be followed by a heartfelt apology as soon as you point it out.

I deserve that respect in return.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I enjoyed the latest Rambo film.

The destruction of the village actually made me cry. Stallone went all unexpectedly real on us.
End of sidebar

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:18 AM

Quote:
The 'popular opinion' is wrong. I weep. I like the Sound of Music and Mary Poppins. I enjoyed the latest Rambo film. I love openly and without shame. I enjoy the art of using weapons. I am a man. I am a human.

And I am uncomfortable with statements about love and compassion and open displays of emotion not because you are a man, but because I have issues.

Go Anthony. :) Enjoy that stuff.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 2:21 AM

rezident owtsidr

Are you angry and disgusted by the human race, like I am?

this may amuze you: http://www.nooalf.com/FaMLE.htm

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Friday, December 21, 2012 8:07 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Anthony, dammit, you are getting way too pissed off for something that wasn't even my claim! It was someone else who made that remark about "gun stroking" thing or whatever it was and equated guns to men's "manhood"; when you rejected it, I thought to myself, "well, just like older men driving convertibles, or fast cars, that IS a perception many hold". I let it go rather than point it out, because it wasn't important. But when I ran across this ad, I thought "there, maybe I can show Anthony that it IS a perception, played into by the ad company to appeal to just that sort of person", so I put it up.

It wasn't about you--you know damned well I respect you--and I did NOT hold them up as "valid". I held them up as a PERCEPTION by some people, which the ad company would not have appealed to if that were not true. It has nothing to do with you whatsoever except in that you rejected the perception as not existing at all and I was refuting that statement.

It may not be the "popular opinion", but it IS the opinion of many, that is simply a fact. It's not about you, it's about the idea. And I happen to believe it IS true for SOME--note I say SOME--men. There is power in having a gun; how people feel about that varies from person to person, but some men DO see it as an extension of their power, manliness, whatever. Do me a favor: Google "guns manly". That should show you just how many ADVERTISEMENTS alone there are for guns as being "manly". Taken to extremes, the crack whoever it was about men stroking guns is NOT unreasonable.

Once again: IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU! Why you would think I view YOU that way, and keep insisting that's what I was saying, is totally beyond me, given how well you should know me by now. You want to keep being angry with me, I can't stop you. But I was merely trying to make the point that your rejection of the idea that some see guns as enhancing men's "manliness" is wrong. NOTHING else, okay?

I can't figure it out, whether it's because I'm on the side wishing for some gun restrictions has you viewing me as attacking you or something, or you're too wrapped up in this gun debate, or you took what I posted as referring to you personally--which it was not. I wish you could take a step back and try to understand what I'm saying. But if you don't understand, there's nothing I can do about it.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 9:21 AM

Niki: whether or not gun companies play into that kind of advertising, it's a stereotype. Some guys happily measure themselves up to that stereotype, sure. But its one that causes a lot of damage.

I'm against anything that tells people to not be who they are. All this gender role stuff is distasteful to me. Because if I'd listened to any of that, I'd never gotten muddy or climbed trees as a girl, I'd never have continued in science and math that I struggled with, I'd be in a loveless marriage with a bunch of kids running around wearing dresses with my hair immaculately curled and groomed and dyed blonde, and I'd always be wondering what happened to me, where I went wrong.

Stereotypes hurt people. Stereotypes are bad. It doesn't matter if by observation it seems justified. It is NEVER justified.

And for people who have been hurt by a stereotype, it is ALWAYS personal, no matter how impersonally you might have meant it.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 9:22 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Niki,

Let me be clear. The person who said that didn't just say it about 'men' or 'gun owners' but also about me personally.

I never rejected that the perception exists. Obviously it exists or someone wouldn't have said such things about me. I rejected it as being a valid perception and one worthy of expression. I rejected that someone should embrace that view, paint all men with it, and then paint me with it specifically.

So when, after someone insults men, shooters, AND ME PERSONALLY, you go and find a Bushmaster advert and say, "Look, see?"

And you don't know why that should piss me off?

Maybe people do this to women so often and in so many ways that you can't even see it anymore because it looks like the background wallpaper. I don't think you even noticed I had been insulted.

ETA: I see Byte already expressed it better than I did. Thank you.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 21, 2012 9:37 AM

Oh look, here's something else that is MANLY.

(This ad was PULLED because of the number of complaints it got from men)

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Friday, December 21, 2012 9:42 AM

This is the above guy's girlfriend.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 9:51 AM

I think I fried my brain looking at Cosmopolitan magazine covers. How does that even exist? "How to please your man!" "How to get a better boyfriend!" "How to get thin!" "Fashion tips!" "Makeup tips!" "Shoes!" "Sexy sexy sexy!"

Hey if you have all that, I guess your career and your finances and everything will fall into place BLEAARGH

Anyway.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:07 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT: I don't think you even noticed I had been insulted.

Welcome to the internet.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:07 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Niki,

In case you don't remember the details, this is the discussion that prompted you to find a Bushmaster advert. To hold it up and say, "See? This is how people think! You shouldn't tell her that she's wrong."

Quote:
His fear of losing his symbol of manhood (and puh-lease don't tell me you haven't heard that analogy, Anthony, or that you haven't looked yourself in the mirror while you're gun stroking to exactly how perfect a penis-stroking metaphor it is)

To which I responded: I hear this metaphor a lot, actually. Which is really just a way of belittling someone's position. No, I haven't looked at myself in the mirror while gun-stroking in a perfect penis-stroking metaphor. This is something that happens inside of other people's minds.

Quote:
All right Anthony, setting aside the gun-as-manhood thing, (which I guess isn't evident unless you're a non-gun person coming across the gun measuring and comparing threads that crop up here time to time)

To which I responded: I am left to wonder why two girls can talk about their favorite things, even compare and contrast them, without being accused of using these things as vagina stand-ins or masturbatory symbols. I'm sure such a statement would be vulgar and inappropriate to a woman. I'm not sure why it's deemed appropriate to say such a thing to a man.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:10 AM

Let's just say that Freud was fulluvit and kinda abnormal and hypocritical. I think we can all agree there.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:14 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yes, Byte got it:

Quote:
whether or not gun companies play into that kind of advertising, it's a stereotype. Some guys happily measure themselves up to that stereotype, sure. But its one that causes a lot of damage.

Stereotypes hurt people. Stereotypes are bad. It doesn't matter if by observation it seems justified. It is NEVER justified.

What you're both missing is that I DID NOT APPROVE of the stereotype, I was doing nothing more than saying it EXISTS. I hate it; all I was doing was showing that it DOES exist. I wasn't saying it was Anthony or that it was right, simply that it exists and advertisers take advantage of it. "I never rejected that the perception exists." Maybe I misunderstood, I thought Anthony rejected the stereotype's existence at the time; my point was that the stereotype DOES exist, not that it had anything to do with Anthony.

Quote:
Maybe people do this to women so often and in so many ways that you can't even see it anymore because it looks like the background wallpaper. I don't think you even noticed I had been insulted.

I'm offended by that. You know full well I am aware of stereotypes of women, and of course I noticed that you had been insulted. Can you possibly back up and understand that ALL I was doing was, under the belief that you were saying the stereotype didn't exist, showing that it DOES? That was the sum total of my intent, AND NOTHING MORE.

I'm going to give up on this one. It was a small thing, just meant to point out that the stereotype exists and is utilized by advertisers and manufacturers to push guns. Nothing more. I've tried very hard to be clear about that, there's nothing more I can say.

Byte: You're right, DON'T look at Cosmo or ANY of those other magazines...it WILL fry your brain, definitely! I avoid them like the plague at checkstands, if I dared look at them, I'd start screaming and throw my groceries in the air!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:19 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay. I didn't catch "I hear this metaphor a lot, actually. Which is really just a way of belittling someone's position." The only problem I have with it is that it's TRUE of some men; that's how stereotypes become stereotypes, and again, my argument was that the fact that it's used in ADVERTISEMENTS, intended to get men to buy guns, shows that it appeals to some. Yes, using it in a debate, especially the way it was used, IS intended to belittle someone's position, no question about that. But the fact remains that, for some men, it is true. If that were not the case, advertisers wouldn't use it to sell guns.

I don't believe I EVER said "you shouldn't tell her she's wrong"...would you find that for me, please? I've made my point over and over: That the stereotype is real enough for advertisers to use it to sell guns. Period.

And that's the last for me, I sincerely hope, this misunderstanding went way over the top and we both have better things to do. Again: Be angry with me if it gains you something, but you MISUNDERSTOOD my point and my intent.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:24 AM

Niki: Well, so long as you recognize the stereotype and don't agree. I don't claim to know what you're thinking or if you accused or insulted Anthony about anything. He seems to think you did though, and whether or not that happened, whether or not the conversation has become too impassioned (and perhaps it has) he seems pretty hurt. Maybe it is best to step back and let everything cool down.

Thanks for the advice. I do normally avoid it, but some of the women in my family... I see those magazines now and then. I have to ignore it, forget I ever saw it. Sometimes they pay for subscriptions to those types of magazines for me. Are they trying to tell me something? I don't want any part of that.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:25 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Niki,

Let me be clear. The person who said that didn't just say it about 'men' or 'gun owners' but also about me personally.

I never rejected that the perception exists. Obviously it exists or someone wouldn't have said such things about me. I rejected it as being a valid perception and one worthy of expression. I rejected that someone should embrace that view, paint all men with it, and then paint me with it specifically.

So when, after someone insults men, shooters, AND ME PERSONALLY, you go and find a Bushmaster advert and say, "Look, see?"

And you don't know why that should piss me off?

Maybe people do this to women so often and in so many ways that you can't even see it anymore because it looks like the background wallpaper. I don't think you even noticed I had been insulted.

ETA: I see Byte already expressed it better than I did. Thank you.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

Here's where it applies to you Anthony.

When you and your gun-loving cohorts get going with your public gun-stroking, you are not talking about your favorite knitting pattern or most useful power tool. You are talking about a killing machine.

Your fondness for this killing machine is not purely for the beauty or usefulness of it, as old ladies may love a sweater they made or a carpenter may admire a table. You have made it very clear that the value you have in your guns is not purely in the devices themselves. It is in how they give you power. Your guns make you feel secure, in control of your freedom, and that security is based on your gun being at least as big as the gun of the other neighborhood alpha males.

Is the penis analogy clear to you yet?

OK, I'll go on.

In living within this paradigm, you have rejected the notion that a man may be valued for more than the girth of his willy, or that a human may have power that is not rooted in violence or the threat of violence. I see these two mentalities as similarity rooted in the stereotype of the MALE, though certainly I have known both men and women who crossed to the other side. Still, I see no better analogy to a person finding power in the size of their gun than a man defining his worth in the size of his johnson.

I have lived all my life with neither a penis nor a gun. I have frequently had less physical power than those who could do me damage. I have found ways to ensure my personal freedom and security without either of these stereotypical male tools.

Yes, it can be done. You can be verile without your big guns. You can be secure without having immediate means of destroying your "enemy."

Ghandi. MLK. Give peace a chance.

I wonder if you could try it. I wonder if everyone could give it a shot, (Oh, the pun...) and how it might change the world if people would give up the big penis-gun-nuke contest.

I mean, really. Do you really think you have nothing to fear from the constabulary as long as yours is as big as theirs?

And you don't see how the metaphor applies to you?

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:28 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
War on Guns!

LOL

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:28 AM

Mal4Prez

:o

Um. What about women who do own guns? Like the mother of the shooter?

I do not believe the metaphor applies to Anthony. Or to anyone really.

This thread is way too hot. Too many passions running on both sides, hurtful things being said, misunderstandings.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:56 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Niki,

Let me be clear. The person who said that didn't just say it about 'men' or 'gun owners' but also about me personally.

I never rejected that the perception exists. Obviously it exists or someone wouldn't have said such things about me. I rejected it as being a valid perception and one worthy of expression. I rejected that someone should embrace that view, paint all men with it, and then paint me with it specifically.

So when, after someone insults men, shooters, AND ME PERSONALLY, you go and find a Bushmaster advert and say, "Look, see?"

And you don't know why that should piss me off?

Maybe people do this to women so often and in so many ways that you can't even see it anymore because it looks like the background wallpaper. I don't think you even noticed I had been insulted.

ETA: I see Byte already expressed it better than I did. Thank you.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

Here's where it applies to you Anthony.

When you and your gun-loving cohorts get going with your public gun-stroking, you are not talking about your favorite knitting pattern or most useful power tool. You are talking about a killing machine.

Your fondness for this killing machine is not purely for the beauty or usefulness of it, as old ladies may love a sweater they made or a carpenter may admire a table. You have made it very clear that the value you have in your guns is not purely in the devices themselves. It is in how they give you power. Your guns make you feel secure, in control of your freedom, and that security is based on your gun being at least as big as the gun of the other neighborhood alpha males.

Is the penis analogy clear to you yet?

OK, I'll go on.

In living within this paradigm, you have rejected the notion that a man may be valued for more than the girth of his willy, or that a human may have power that is not rooted in violence or the threat of violence. I see these two mentalities as similarity rooted in the stereotype of the MALE, though certainly I have known both men and women who crossed to the other side. Still, I see no better analogy to a person finding power in the size of their gun than a man defining his worth in the size of his johnson.

I have lived all my life with neither a penis nor a gun. I have frequently had less physical power than those who could do me damage. I have found ways to ensure my personal freedom and security without either of these stereotypical male tools.

Yes, it can be done. You can be verile without your big guns. You can be secure without having immediate means of destroying your "enemy."

Ghandi. MLK. Give peace a chance.

I wonder if you could try it. I wonder if everyone could give it a shot, (Oh, the pun...) and how it might change the world if people would give up the big penis-gun-nuke contest.

I mean, really. Do you really think you have nothing to fear from the constabulary as long as yours is as big as theirs?

And you don't see how the metaphor applies to you?

Hello,

Well God Damn. You're still trying to justify and reinforce your stereotype. What horseshit.

Do you think I get my value as a man from my Gun or my Johnson? Do you think I arm myself in competition with the cops or my other shooting friends? Do you really think I view my guns as a symbol of my personal potency?

Do you not see how frustratingly terrible such a bias and stereotype is? I guess not, since you embrace it whole-hog and try to justify it.

Quote:
Yes, it can be done. You can be verile without your big guns.

Do you not see how utterly insulting and inappropriate this is?

Quote:
Do you really think you have nothing to fear from the constabulary as long as yours is as big as theirs?

I think we have something to fear from the constabulary always. That doesn't mean I want them to have the power not only to abuse us, but also to slaughter us wholesale. It doesn't mean I want to multiply their ability to do harm, and heap up that potential of harm till it is towering over the people.

Are you really unable to perceive that someone may have concerns about power imbalances and misuse of power? You seem to have these concerns about individual citizens. You worry about the random stranger going off the deep end and slaughtering innocents. But not about the police. It's bizarre.

What is special about the police that makes them more trustworthy than your neighbor? What is special about the government that you want them to have all those same powers that you fear in your fellow citizens?

Quote:
Ghandi. MLK. Give peace a chance.

I have always been an advocate for peace. I have always been quick to point out the horrors of war. I have always disagreed with those who wanted to urge rebellion every time they are unhappy. Who do you think you're speaking to? Never mind. I know who you are speaking to. You are speaking to someone who exists in your biased mind.

Quote:
And you don't see how the metaphor applies to you?

No. I don't. I refuse to be labeled by you. I refuse your justifications for labeling me. You are part of the problem that you are trying to solve. You are one of the people pointing at men and telling them what they are instead of letting them live on their own terms.

I was very tempted to insult you in the way that you persist in insulting me. But such an action would only reduce me and carry on this cycle of harmful bias.

It is enough to say that you are wrong and that every time you insist on this viewpoint, you hurt my feelings as a human being.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 21, 2012 11:33 AM

Okay, this is my customized Bond gun replica:

Looks nice, all metal construction, totally legal (in the house), you can shoot paper targets with the plastic BB's it comes with, cheap ($14), no checks, no ammo expenses, can use it any time...

I just don't see the need for the real thing.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 11:37 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Chris,

It's a very nice replica.

I would never impose the real thing on you.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 21, 2012 12:25 PM

MAL4PREZ

Anthony -

You refuse to let go of any gun that the police are allowed to have. That is nothing but a pissing contest with deadly results. This fear of Them results in a country awash with deadly weapons, killing machines within the easy reach of those who should NOT have them.

I think it's a stupid pissing contest. Plenty of societies get by without all these killing machines. (By this I mean the really really bad guns, not the average ones for hunting and basic self defense, as we've been over.)

You talk about how we live in fantasy-land trying to convince ourselves we have control. I see this fascination with high-powered weapons as being exactly the same thing. We do not need all the killing machines to protect us from the government. There are better ways to achieve that, ways that do not put such horrible power in the hands of crazy individuals.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 12:38 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Mal4Prez

:o

Um. What about women who do own guns? Like the mother of the shooter?

That's the beauty of a metaphor - it can be applied to everything. You'll note that I compared a "person" thinking security comes from gun size to a man thinking virility comes from girth. This woman powering herself up with guns was just as much playing the stupid game, and look where it got her. It certainly didn't make her secure.

One could try to even out the gender stereotype by saying a woman's worth comes of her bra size, but that just doesn't carry the same violent undertones to me. And surely that's my bias, that I see men going after size as inherently violent.

Right, because big men and violence never go together. [/sarcasm]

No, I don't think Anthony is inherently violent, but I do find his gun fascination and his need for security through firearms rather telling. I think this equivalence of violence and personal security is an insanity that I hope the human race can outgrow.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
It's a very nice replica.

Thanks, I did have to work on it a bit.
Quote:

I would never impose the real thing on you.
I shot the real thing on the set of a movie I worked on once (blanks), and my replica is nearly identical except that it's not semi-auto, and it is way nicer to the eardrums.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

No, I don't think Anthony is inherently violent, but I do find his gun fascination and his need for security through firearms rather telling. I think this equivalence of violence and personal security is an insanity that I hope the human race can outgrow.

Mal, I'm having this discussion with some UK folk, I thought you'd like to see a couple of comments from across the pond:

Quote:
If you hear someone break in in the night, well, are you really gonna have your gun handy? And if so, wouldn't it be as likely to be picked up by a kid and used on his or her sibling (and there is evidence of that happening).

Otherwise, well, frankly if you want to just take a gun and murder someone out of sheer evil revenge, well, there's nothing anyone can do about it! It's not even like Gunfight at OK Corral, where victory goes the one quickest on the draw. It's not like the kids are gonna be armed now is it? Or the teachers. You know, 'Better check my gun today in case there's a massacre..."

So I cannot see how liberal gun laws protect anyone, I mean these guys don't forewarn anyone do they?

And from a UK military dude:

Quote:
On a really serious note, America has to realise that these military weapons of mass annihilation are the problem. Most of the people who defend the possession of these weapons have no idea about defence. In the real world there are many like myself who have been trained to survive by any & all means necessary in a military environment.
It seems to me that Americans buy more of these weapons to feel safe, yet the more they purchase the more unsafe they actually get.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 12:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I see you are still trying to argue your point.

Let us begin by reminding you that you have reduced me, my philosophy, and all of my ideas to a phallus. And having reduced me to such, you dismiss me as such. You act as though that is a fine and dandy thing to do. You have not repented of this. You have defended it.

Shame on you.

Now that we've established this, I wonder what the purpose is of conversing with someone who has reduced me and dismissed me in such a fashion.

I will try to make you understand.

You make a distinction between 'the government' and 'people.' You worry about 'people' and what 'people' do, but you do not extend these concerns to 'the government.'

You identify a series of killing machines that have no appropriate place in society. You advise me that several societies get by without such killing machines. You remind me that just having these killing machines laying around in society puts them within easy reach of those who should NOT have them.

Then you tell me that these killing machines shouldn't be removed from society. They should just be taken out of the hands of the part of society called 'the people.' The part of society called 'the government' should still have them.

This premise might be logical if 'the government' was not made up of 'people.' However, 'the government' is made up of 'people.' The same people who can not be trusted to have these horrific weapons.

Now when I decide that it is good and proper to treat all people as the same, you tell me I am in a pissing contest.

What can I say to such logic? How can I respond? You are incapable of seeing me or my arguments in any context that does not involve a phallus or what emanates from a phallus. You can not see the simple inconsistency of your own position.

If I have nothing to fear from people in the government with weapons of mass slaughter, then you have nothing to fear from ordinary people with weapons of mass slaughter.

If you have something to fear from ordinary people with weapons of mass slaughter, then I have something to fear from government people with weapons of mass slaughter.

You tell me I live in a world of fear.

Well, so do you.

The difference is that you fear people asymmetrically.

A man with an assault weapon is a problem for you.

A man with a badge and an assault weapon is safe.

This is a delusion more striking to me than any I have been accused of.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 21, 2012 1:03 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Quote:

One could try to even out the gender stereotype by saying a woman's worth comes of her bra size, but that just doesn't carry the same violent undertones to me.

Why do you equate violence and phalluses? Or violence with men, for that matter?

Quote:

And surely that's my bias, that I see men going after size as inherently violent.

Yes. It's your bias. It's a wrong bias.

Quote:

Right, because big men and violence never go together. [/sarcasm]

What about small men? What about women? Do these kinds of people ever get violent?

What about trying to discard your harmful stereotypes and just deal with issues on their own terms?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 21, 2012 1:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think I fried my brain looking at Cosmopolitan magazine covers. How does that even exist? "How to please your man!" "How to get a better boyfriend!" "How to get thin!" "Fashion tips!" "Makeup tips!" "Shoes!" "Sexy sexy sexy!"

Hey if you have all that, I guess your career and your finances and everything will fall into place BLEAARGH

IMAGE ATTACHED FOR CLARITY

Aaaiee, cannot un-see!

-F

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Friday, December 21, 2012 2:45 PM

M4P: I don't know how to say this politely... What you're saying sounds WRONG to me. Worth by the size of a BRA? By the size of dick, johnson, whatever abrupt and crude term you want to use to shock and startle us into, what, agreeing with you when you're acting like this?

I think your interpretation of the issue is taking Freud concepts to an extreme, and there is a disturbing lack of sensitivity in your explanations and dismissal about the fear and ennui that all of humanity experiences, always.

You aren't afraid of the size of our sex traits. You're afraid of death. In your fear of death you are projecting questionable issues on all of us and lashing out at poor Anthony.

I recognize that you are a teacher, and you feel this tragedy possibly more closely than any of us. But that doesn't give you free reign to treat one of us like this, one of us who has never hurt anyone. You want that fight, you look to Frem, or me. Leave Anthony alone.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 7:57 PM

rezident owtsidr

Wait a minit. Need sum help here.

Anthony is upset bekuz Niki said that the other guy was rite and Anthony was not being reasoble about the whole thing started by sumwun else before Niki sed anything, but then sumwun new jumped in with a comment that seemed to be saying otherwize and Byte chimed in as usual on her side, but Mal only tried to cool thingz down but then Anthony only got madder wn Niki sed he didnt start it kuz the adverts all go along with the 1st thing with the stuff (or wuz it the stuff with the thing?) AND then You sed 'wutever' but nobody paid attention and then he sed sumthing about the other topic from before.

Iz that rite or did I miss sumthing?

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Friday, December 21, 2012 8:18 PM

I don't have a side. As usual?

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Friday, December 21, 2012 10:34 PM

rezident owtsidr

OK, but I mean before that wen Frem sed that that wuznt wut he ment, so Anthony wuz perfectly justified in hiz umbraj unless it wuz you.

Its all about how people get used to thingz, no matter how bad. I get 10 mpg in my car, for example, so anybody with a compact woud be outrajd if suddenly they had to pay so much for gas all the time.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 7:39 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm going to jump in and get my ass whacked again, no doubt, but I DO agree with Mal4 on her other point. Separating guns from "manliness",

Quote:
It seems to me that Americans buy more of these weapons to feel safe, yet the more they purchase the more unsafe they actually get.

With this I agree, and the same point as Mal4 made it in different words. To me it IS a false sense of security, which in truth makes us LESS secure.
I disagree with your interpretation in some ways, Mal4, but on that we agree.

Quote:
You talk about how we live in fantasy-land trying to convince ourselves we have control. I see this fascination with high-powered weapons as being exactly the same thing.

On the other hand, I don't see Anthony's insistence on having the same size weapons as police the way you do. From past experience, I see it as his fear of the government, of the police, which in my opinion comes from his background.

Quote:
They should just be taken out of the hands of the part of society called 'the people.' The part of society called 'the government' should still have them.

This premise might be logical if 'the government' was not made up of 'people.' However, 'the government' is made up of 'people.' The same people who can not be trusted to have these horrific weapons.

Now when I decide that it is good and proper to treat all people as the same

That makes my point for me. I don't think one will ever get anywhere trying to convince Anthony that the police (as in 'government') should be better armed than 'the people'. It is a waste of time. I don't think the concept that the VAST majority of police out there are good and do their job as best they can, that they know they're putting their lives on the line every time, and that most of them wouldn't WANT assault rifles, except when they come up against them. Anthony seems to always be convinced that 'the government' and 'the police' are inherently evil. I don't get it, but I accept it as part of his belief system, again, at least in part born out of his background. It's there every time he discusses such things:

Quote:
If I have nothing to fear from people in the government with weapons of mass slaughter, then you have nothing to fear from ordinary people with weapons of mass slaughter.

If you have something to fear from ordinary people with weapons of mass slaughter, then I have something to fear from government people with weapons of mass slaughter.

A man with an assault weapon is a problem for you.

A man with a badge and an assault weapon is safe.

This is a delusion more striking to me than any I have been accused of.

That he sees this as a "delusion" should tell you just how impossible communication is on this issue. As I have come to see it, I believe Anthony views police with weapons as actually MORE dangerous than regular people with weapons. How do you get past that, past his conviction that viewing it otherwise is a "delusion"? I just don't see it as a pissing contest; more as the false sense of "control" issue both you and that UK military dude Chris spoke of.

Anthony, that YOU view someone with a badge and a weapon as MORE dangerous than the average person with a weapon is a delusion I've never been able to understand or get past. It's a very strange belief; if it were so, why do the police DEFEND us from people with weapons? What do you see as their motive for being "evil", or "dangerous", or whatever? I'll never deny there has been misuse of authority in some cases, but why do you find them more dangerous if they had bigger weapons? I'd like to try and understand that, I honestly would. It's so strange to me I can't get my head around it.

Actually, Mal4, you're wrong in some ways about big men and violence. Just as with dogs, and probably all other critters, big men are LESS violent than little ones, on the whole. I don't know why it is--maybe fear born out of being smaller, as in less safe, or something, but the fact is that GENERALLY SPEAKING, small people are more feisty than big ones. It's been my observation; also I've observed that small people are more afraid of big people. I've had bosses who singled me out for "take down", who rode me regularly, and they were always small men. I saw it in social interaction; I saw it in a couple of my co-workers having told our supervisor they were AFRAID of me, when I'd never done or said a single thing to threaten them; I also saw a strange thing in that small men seemed to want big girlfriends, which I'll also never understand.

Gawd, Byte, that people give you SUBSCRIPTIONS to such things makes me sick. Nobody would ever dream of doing that to me--they must be trying to give you a message about being more "feminine", or else it's that typical thing where people give someone something THEY would like. Pathetic, either way!

On the other hand, saying "Leave Anthony alone" is wrong; everyone here has to be able to take the heat and defend themselves, and Anthony does quite fine on his own. They have opposing opinions; we're all welcome to agree or disagree with those opinions, but we don't have the right to tell others what to do. You know that. And I DO believe you have a side, at least a bit. If you read your posts, they are pretty much on Anthony's side or defending Anthony, and telling someone to leave him alone on top of that kind of indicates you have a side. JMHO.

Jo, I'm a female and so is Mal4. It was she who original slapped Anthony with the "stroking your gun" thing, which I BELIEVED Anthony said didn't exist, so when I ran across the ad, I put it up to show the stereotype DOES exist, and things become a stereotype because there are enough examples of them to create the stereotype. Anthony hasn't seemed to grasp that it wasn't about him, but that's neither here nor there. Mal4 was, I believe the person who made the initial crack about stroking, and she's come back in to defend her stance (not someone new), which has pissed Anthony off even more. That's kinda how it got to where it is.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:17 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

NOT to say I approve or agree, or that it's even true for all but a small minority of the population, but to make the point that OTHERS view it that way, including gun manufacturers and their ad agencies, try this:

Quote:
Marketers have long told potential customers that if you used their product, it would do more than satisfy your consumer desires, it would make you into the kind of person you want to be.

You may not be young, hip, and creative, but if you buy a computer from Apple, you can tell yourself that you are. Wearing a T-shirt from Under Armour won't actually turn you into an athlete, but it doesn't hurt to pretend.

And if you're anxious about your masculinity, if you aren't quite sure whether those around you find you sufficiently strong and potent, the Bushmaster corporation has an answer for you. If you buy one of their semi-automatic rifles -- like the kind Adam Lanza used to murder 20 children and six adults last week -- you may "Consider your Man Card reissued."

That's the message of ads the company has been running, along with a particularly ridiculous social media campaign. Until today -- the page has apparently been taken down, but parts of it are visible here ( http://www.buzzfeed.com/scott/bushmasters-shockingly-awful-man-card-ca
mpaign]) -- you could learn on the "Man Card" section of Bushmaster's website that "In a world of rapidly depleting testosterone, the Bushmaster Man Card declares and confirms that you are a man's man." Then you could fill out a little form to bust on your buddies for not being manly enough, to "Revoke a Man Card." Just enter a brief description of the offense and put it into one of five categories: "Cry baby," "Cupcake," "Short leash," "Coward," or "Just unmanly."

The symbol for the last is the female restroom icon (a stick figure wearing a dress), but "Short leash" gets some of the best action, like "Steve A. missed a much-anticipated poker night to attend a movie musical instead," or "Heath K, where 'Yes I will' always becomes 'If she'll let me.' " All it takes to get that Man Card back is to get yourself a Bushmaster.

You don't have to be a Freudian analyst to grasp the hidden meaning. It's not even subtext -- it's text. As we begin a long-overdue examination of where gun culture in America has gone, we can't avoid the way guns have become so entwined with masculine anxiety, as so many men seek to find their identity in instruments of destruction.

With manual labor but a memory for most Americans, we have even fewer opportunities to enact rituals of manhood in the way our ancestors did. The strongest caveman may have led the tribe, but who are the masters of today's universe? A bunch of skinny, pasty kids who spend their days staring at computer screens. Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg may not be able to best you at arm-wrestling, but they could buy and sell you a thousand times over.

We have to find reassurance where we can, so even if we can't prove our masculinity on the job and our kids won't listen to us, there is a way to feel that testosterone surge through our bodies. Whatever else you think about guns, no one who has ever held one can deny that they make you feel potent and strong. You don't even need to fire it to appreciate its power -- just holding it is enough. So if watching your fantasies play out on TV doesn't quite scratch that itch, you can enact them yourself down at the range -- or get a concealed carry permit, and convince yourself that the only reason you're not Jack Bauer is that the right opportunity hasn't yet presented itself.

Here's something you may not realize: Gun ownership has been declining for decades. According to the University of Chicago's General Social Survey, in 1977, 54% of American households had guns. By 2010, the number had fallen to 32%. Yet gun sales are at record highs. That means that existing gun owners are buying more and more guns. It's not enough to have a hunting rifle over your mantle; you need an entire arsenal, just in case the government falls, society disintegrates, and you have to protect your cave -- sorry, your home -- from the marauding hordes.

That's exactly what the gun manufacturers want you to think, so you keep buying. They know that hunting will never again be the pastime it once was, and as more Americans move from rural areas to the suburbs and cities, their natural market withers.

That "responsible gun owner" politicians talk about, the one who reverentially passes down to his son the bolt-action rifle his father gave him? That guy isn't good for business. The manufacturers need the other guy, the one who fears he may not be all the man he could be.

Whenever that anxiety gets to be too much, he can go down to the gun store and buy another gun, and another, and a few more after that. He'll get thousands of rounds of ammunition too, because you never know what might happen. Then he'll go home and nod with satisfaction at his own little armory, telling himself that when the time comes for him to become the hero of his own action movie, he'll be ready. He's got his Man Card. And maybe he needs one or two more guns. Just to be sure. http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/20/opinion/waldman-guns-manhood/index.html?
hpt=hp_bn7]
THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANTHONY! It is about the perception that IS out there, that some men (and some women) DO have, that the stereotype IS true in some instances, and that gun manufacturers and their ad companies bprofit from it.

"The bearer of this card has averted complete humiliation. Today, he is a Man...The way is before you. www.Bushmaster.com";

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 10:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANTHONY! It is about the perception that IS out there

Hello,

First of all, it has been made about me. This stereotype isn't "Out there." It's in the minds of people like Mal. She is utterly incapable of dealing with me or any gun owner except through the lens of that stereotype.

And you keep posting and posting and posting about a stereotype that NOBODY has claimed doesn't exist, desperately anxious to prove it exists... WHY?

And then you say this:

Quote:
the stereotype IS true in some instances

Well, so what? Every stereotype is true sometimes, even the most egregious and awful.

Advertisers have always craved to employ these stereotypes and reinforce these stereotypes so that they can manipulate their targets. And guess what, when people like Mal buys into these stereotypes so thoroughly that they can't see me as an individual human anymore, that's a BAD thing.

I am tired of being told what it means to be a man, how I must think as a man, what I must do as a man. I am also tired of you holding up this stereotype and saying, "See, see!" And worse, "It's true sometimes."

Try to imagine all the negative stereotypes about black people.

And then try to imagine saying to a black person, "Hey, this stereotype exists all over, and well, it's true sometimes."

There's a lot of creative metaphors such a statement deserves.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 12:38 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I think its no bad thing to talk about stereotypes and do some reflection on how much they impact on your behaviour and I mean that for both men and women.

I think the thing about advertising and use of stereotypes is that they do seep into your subconscious, so that in the end as a woman you can get suckered into to a whole lot image issues that can end up in you buying stuff.

So I might get my hair and nails done and go on some latest fad diet. I know that I'm not trying to please any man, cause my man is happy with me before all that stuff, but part of me is still caught up in prevalent stereotypes of what it means to be a woman. What a woman should look like...

Don't know if I am making myself clear, but I guess I think the conversation about men/manliness and guns is worth having.

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

So I might get my hair and nails done and go on some latest fad diet. I know that I'm not trying to please any man, cause my man is happy with me before all that stuff, but part of me is still caught up in prevalent stereotypes of what it means to be a woman. What a woman should look like...

Naw, just lift some weights and eat all you want; real men like a buff female!

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 5:42 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

well i guess the real question is what am I happy with...but its hard not to get caught up in comparisons with media images.

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 6:08 PM

rezident owtsidr

Niki, I wuz mocking how the thread had fallen into the 'you sed, then I sed' ditch.

About getting genderz rong - not eazy to figure around here!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 6:52 PM

rezident owtsidr

Gunz are like prescription medicine. More & worse side effects than the cure they offer!

A gun commercial:

Tired of burgalarz making off with your stuff after tying you up and raping you? (video uv police taking a report from a desheveld crying woman)

The new Glock 21 is a self defense solution suitable for many circumstances and situations, such as bad neighborhood rezidence, suburban home invasion, car jacking, bank robbery, etc. 13 roundz uv effective stopping power, with reload in 1.3 secondz.(video uv same woman in nice clothez, hairdo, smiling, walking in a picturesque park with her huzband and 2 little children. A gun in a holster, so comfortable and unobtrusive looking on her hip, continuez for the rest uv the commercial)

Gun ownership haz been associated with higher rates of domestic quarrelz escalating to shooting injuries and deaths. Temporary thoughts uv suicide are more readily acted upon if you own a gun. Accidental shootings, including self injury/death are greater than zero when a gun is prezent. Burgalarz are not garanteed to be defeated becauze you own a gun. Firing a gun without hearing protection, especially indoors, will permanently damage your hearing including possibly complete deafness. Gunz are often stolen by burgalarz. Glock strongly recommendz that you keep your gun with you when leaving your rezidence unattended. Having a gun duz not protect you from being shot, it only givez you the ability to shoot back if you are still alive.

You can feel safe again. Ask your gun dealer if the Glock 21 iz rite for you.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Hello,

First of all, it has been made about me. This stereotype isn't "Out there." It's in the minds of people like Mal. She is utterly incapable of dealing with me or any gun owner except through the lens of that stereotype.

MAL... I'm a gun owner, would you deal with me the same way you would deal with Tony?

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Sunday, December 23, 2012 6:16 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think its no bad thing to talk about stereotypes and do some reflection on how much they impact on your behaviour and I mean that for both men and women.

I think the thing about advertising and use of stereotypes is that they do seep into your subconscious, so that in the end as a woman you can get suckered into to a whole lot image issues that can end up in you buying stuff.

So I might get my hair and nails done and go on some latest fad diet. I know that I'm not trying to please any man, cause my man is happy with me before all that stuff, but part of me is still caught up in prevalent stereotypes of what it means to be a woman. What a woman should look like...

Don't know if I am making myself clear, but I guess I think the conversation about men/manliness and guns is worth having.

What Mal said. Anthony, for me this isn't about you, and I agree with Mal...we've discussed stereotypes for women, but I guess discussing them for men isn't kosher when it comes to guns. I'm not "desperate" about anything--I still think you're getting over-emotional about this--I saw the article on CNN and still think it is a viable subject for conversation. I had no intention of discussing it further, I just saw the article and thought it was a valid one. Nothing more. As far as I'm concerned, it ceased being about you a while back--in fact it was never about you, it was about what someone said and the rejection of the stereotype. I can think of at least one other person here who, in my estimation, it IS about, but there's no talking to him, or anyone else apparently, so fine.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Sunday, December 23, 2012 7:49 AM

Quote:
If you read your posts, they are pretty much on Anthony's side or defending Anthony, and telling someone to leave him alone on top of that kind of indicates you have a side. JMHO.

I did that because the penis thing was wrong, and kiki calling Anthony authoritarian was wrong - just as Frem calling you liars and hypocrites was wrong.

I've been stepping in where I have seen insults. It may not be necessary, people can defend themselves but I can at least try to help keep this civil.

With this penis gun stereotype, ask yourself if you think it applies to any of the people here. If you don't believe it applies, then it does not add to the discussion and there is no need to defend it. Not any more than conversations about the stereotype that Muslims are violent - how is this different?

Big men/small men are inherently violent and guns are an extension of that? That's like saying guns and car bombs are an inherent part of Muslim culture. It's not about finding advertisements that depict the stereotype, it's about rejecting the stereotype wholesale for a saner society.

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Sunday, December 23, 2012 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

MAL... I'm a gun owner

So... your gun satisfies your penis envy-??

*ducks*

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Sunday, December 23, 2012 8:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BWHAHAHAHAHA!
*throw pies, aims low*

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Sunday, December 23, 2012 8:54 AM