Guns, Guns, Guns. by FREMDFIRMA

My goodness, Mal4,

Of course I'm capable of recognizing a metaphor, but you don't seem to be even willing to recognize a vicious, personal and humiliating attack. Just because language is metaphoric doesn't make it kind or respectful or just. Of course you don't imagine that Anthony literally makes love to his gun in the mirror (I never suggested that you did), but how does that make your nasty insinuation any better, any kinder, any less offensive? Of course it's "hyperbolic," but no more so than, say, Rush Limbaugh's various "hyperboles" about women and their sexuality.

I'm floored that you continue to insist that you've not been out of line in your attack on Anthony. I can only imagine that you somehow perceive Anthony himself to be responsible for oppressing you and so you lash out at him without apparent pang of conscience and without restraint. And now you turn your rage on me.

Irony.

Being unkind, as you're being here, is simply not okay with me and because I generally think very highly of you, I chose to call you on it. If it's not possible for us to remain respectful of each other here in cyberspace, what hope is there for any of us in the real world?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:17 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Just saying...

With all the talk of gun-control, and the want of school defenders...

Might it not make sense that the people of the community be tasked with this?

Instead of the military, or the police guarding the schools... ask the community if there are any who want the job? Since getting rid of gun-free zones, and allowing teachers to be armed, is a battle away... and we dont want the government (armed) in our schools...

Why not ask if former military (who are without jobs), or community members (after being vetted) would like the position?

How many would enjoy the responsibility of protecting children, even getting paid for it?

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:27 AM

As I recall, only three samurai survived that. Their last comments are about how society will use up its heroes and discard them. Sometimes even fear them.

There is no such thing as glory. There's only the right thing to do and the wrong thing. The wrong thing is easy. And the right thing always hurts.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:32 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

The right thing always hurts... correct.

Doesn't mean you don't do it.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
The right thing always hurts... correct.

Doesn't mean you don't do it.

Yeah.

SHERIFF
But a man learns
all the details of a situation like ours, well,
then he has a choice.

MAL
(looking stone-cold serious)
I don't believe he does.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:47 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Exactly.

I'm called a fool for believing in the "good" of people.

I laugh in the faces of those who say such things. They tend to be sad, bitter things... worth more pity than discussion.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:59 AM

Bytemite, the Wulf Whisperer.

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:00 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Brenda, if you're still around and haven't been scared off, please accept the apologies of the ADULTS here for the way you've been treated. All new voices are appreciated by most of us here, and a couple of immature, insensitive snarkers do not speak for all of us. Telling someone to shut the fuck up is precisely against the intent of these forums; I'm sorry you were subjected to that.

Good to know you don't have a "side", Byte, and that you're civil to all.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:05 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra...

Quoting ST-TNG on a Firefly board? Blasphemy!

lol

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:26 PM

Wulf's not a bad guy, he just reacts a little strongly sometimes. When you figure out where the buttons are and you get where he's coming from, it's not too hard to get a good rapport with him.

The worst things he's said are usually when his buttons got inadvertently pushed. And while I can't defend everything he's said, and I know why some people don't like him and can't forgive him, I also have the feeling like when he loses his temper here, that's not necessarily what he is in real life. I think some of the arguments push him into a corner and then things get said and relationships turn unfriendly.

Actually, I probably ought to apply my thoughts on Wulf to everyone here really, sometimes I provoke people and push them into those corners in much that same way. Happens to everyone sometimes. In fact, I really do think that might be where Mal4Prez is coming from - and she has the whole teacher after a school shooting business going on too. I'm kinda hoping I didn't chase her off.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Exactly.

I'm called a fool for believing in the "good" of people.

I laugh in the faces of those who say such things. They tend to be sad, bitter things... worth more pity than discussion.

Oh, absolutely people are good - I just think they're also easily provoked to violence and insanity. I have a long look at that edge every day, it's always there, and I guess I feel like I know how close it is for everyone. It's really easy to fall over it, you can be living a perfectly normal life, and it doesn't take much.

We have all possibilities inside of us. That's what I think.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

We have all possibilities inside of us. That's what I think.

Quite, m'lady.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Bytemite, the Wulf Whisperer.

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 1:43 PM

Quote:
m'lady.

>_>

*bitchy officiousness* bluh bluh bluh *hitting people with scepter*

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
I'm still here. Been told to "shut up" on the OB for being a Canadian with opinons. So not easy to run off.

Excellent! Never let a hoser get vou down!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 2:53 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
They are flat out saying:

BIG GUNS = FREEDOM

Anthony is flat out, without hesitation, saying that. I have a problem with that stance.

Hello,

You can say that all day long, and twice on Sundays, but it doesn't make it true. You've created a creature in your mind and you keep pummeling it, but I'm not in there.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

You can say that all day long, and twice on Sundays, but it doesn't make it true. You've created a creature in your mind and you keep pummeling it, but I'm not in there.

What if she says it, like sixteen times on Sunday? 250?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 3:28 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
(Trying really hard not to add an obscene gesture regarding your inability to recognize a gorramned metaphor... Oh heck: F U too for taking it there.)

Hello,

You took it there, defended the position, reinforced the position, and now curse everyone who was unhappy with it.

I hope nobody uses such metaphors to describe you, and then curses at you to add insult to injury.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 3:29 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

You can say that all day long, and twice on Sundays, but it doesn't make it true. You've created a creature in your mind and you keep pummeling it, but I'm not in there.

What if she says it, like sixteen times on Sunday? 250?

Hello,

I suppose she can make it a mantra, and lead will still not be gold.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 5:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Just saying...

With all the talk of gun-control, and the want of school defenders...

Might it not make sense that the people of the community be tasked with this?

Instead of the military, or the police guarding the schools... ask the community if there are any who want the job? Since getting rid of gun-free zones, and allowing teachers to be armed, is a battle away... and we dont want the government (armed) in our schools...

Why not ask if former military (who are without jobs), or community members (after being vetted) would like the position?

How many would enjoy the responsibility of protecting children, even getting paid for it?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DumbassHasAPoint

Remember I do Contract Security, and happen to be right damn good at it.
Hell, one of the poorest neighborhoods which contracts through our sister company does so by taking up a collection at the local church, and sure sometimes it's a little short, but that is why tax writeoffs exist.
AND, being answerable and accountable in a way the badge bearing mafia is not, that means any misbehavior on behalf of the involved personnel is immediately acted upon, rare that it is.

Honestly, the fashion in which Contracts around here are serviced is in fact one hell of a lot closer to the INTENTION of police than the current reality of em, walk the rounds, talk to people, engage with the community and help settle issues and problems BEFORE they explode, prevent crime rather than clean up after, etc etc.

Just a thought there.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 6:01 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I'm called a fool for believing in the "good" of people. I laugh in the faces of those who say such things. They tend to be sad, bitter things... worth more pity than discussion. -WULF

Oh, gag me with a spoon!

You do not, you silly fucktard! Why, just in the other thread (History X) you said
...

Quote:
This does not apply to fires. Or Domestics. Or ODs. Or any of the million other things that you stupid fucktards get yourselves into. Just shootings. MAYBE stabbings.

SO, us idiots will still rush in to save your sorry selves.

YET, and this happend to a crew in my house... sometimes evil bastards just want to hurt us.

So much for believing in the good in people!!

God, you suck dick. And you can't even keep track of what you say from thread to thread!

Yanno what? You shouldn't even be married, much less have a child. I give your marriage five years, tops, before your own twisted worldview implodes it. You better straighten up, son, before you lose everything you hold dear.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 26, 2012 6:13 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
They are flat out saying:
BIG GUNS = FREEDOM
Anthony is flat out, without hesitation, saying that. I have a problem with that stance.-MAL

Hello,
You can say that all day long, and twice on Sundays, but it doesn't make it true. You've created a creature in your mind and you keep pummeling it, but I'm not in there.-TONY

The what ARE you saying? There's nothing metaphorical about Mal's statement, nothing to misinterpret or get offended over, and my impression is very much the same as Mal's. Less the gun-stroking, of course.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 4:54 AM

Metaphorically speaking, I own a hacksaw. I dislike (make that hate) using it, I have many other tools, but in CASE I need it for a unique situation, I have it.

Frem, Tony, isn't this it?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

CHRIS, but hacksaws don't kill 8000+ people a year, and nobody is trying to defend hacksaws to the death.

This is the part I stumbled over, right at the start.... the moment someone says "I know that was a tragedy, but...." they lost me.

There is a great insensitivity to the death we deal abroad. After all, they're just rag-heads, or gooks, or whatever favorite pejorative term is used to dehumanize victims and make them acceptably dead.

There is a great deal of insensitivity when several thousand urban youth are killed every year, because after all they're just bangers and wannabes.

But when the victims are white, rich, innocent children, sacrificing THEM to whatever Moloch is in someone's mind just goes to prove how entirely desensitized they are. And justifying it afterwards is just morbid and creepifying.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:58 AM

...You've got a point. Though in fairness, I don't think it's a justification so much as completely different priorities. A justification is making something right in your head for yourself that you did when you know it's wrong, but none of the people here shot a little kid.

I guess owning guns versus guns killing a kid could be a justification, but it strikes me more as a complete disconnect between causal relationships.

I bet most of the pro-gun people on this thread would argue that there really isn't a cause and effect and that this was random violence wholly unrelated to whether they as individuals own guns. Meanwhile, you and Niki and Mal4Prez see a very direct cause and effect.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
CHRIS, but hacksaws don't kill 8000+ people a year, and nobody is trying to defend hacksaws to the death.

Signy, notice it was 'hacksaw' and not 'industrial wood chipper'. Most killing sprees aren't done with little personal guns or simple hunting rifles, are they?
Quote:

entirely desensitized

I look at my Son and I know how utterly emotionally gutted and destroyed I'd be in ANY parent's place losing a child, especially to something as stupid & useless as gun violence. Or fucking drone attacks, for that matter. If I think on it too much, I start to tear up.

There's a lot we need to do, but the economics of our great nation mean we will attempt the cheapest solution, and ultimately, one that will have little, if any, effect on the problem.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

I bet most of the pro-gun people on this thread would argue that there really isn't a cause and effect and that this was random violence wholly unrelated to whether they as individuals own guns. Meanwhile, you and Niki and Mal4Prez see a very direct cause and effect.

This is my problem with most of the arguments... a sea of B&W.
IMO, availability of guns (especially WalMart semi-auto specials) is ridiculous. Training & certification are lax at best. Gun show sales are prescriptions for trouble.
However, violent sprees employ the most effective and easiest to obtain weapon; take guns out of the equation, and we'll get flamethrower, dynamite & chainsaw murder sprees.
No single cause, no singly treatment.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:35 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.

You are either for arms... or you are a self-confessed peasant, desiring some government to take care of you.

If you are of the first, you have use. If the latter, useless.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

CHRIS... no matter how many words someone might use to try and convince me that guns are like hacksaws, they can only say that if they're willing to overlook every essential feature that makes one thing a gun and another thing a hacksaw. It's a meaningless equivalence, like saying that guns are like mascara wands (because they're both made-by-human items with a specific purpose.) Pointing out that these two things are NOT THE SAME is not black-and-white thinking, it's just being clear that they occupy very different parts of the spectrum that constitutes "made-by-human" items. Infact, making false equivalences is in itself black-and-white thinking.

Not a black-and-white thinker here, but also not willing to say that 3 = 7.

Quote:
THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.
You are either for arms... or you are a self-confessed peasant, desiring some government to take care of you.
If you are of the first, you have use. If the latter, useless.

Now THERE is a black-and-white thinker who is stroking his gun. Fulfills every stereotype that MAL has lobbed.

So much for seeing the good in people, eh WULF?

BTW WULF- the government NEVER "took care of" the peasants; it was the peasants who took care of ... well, everything. It was the peasants who grew the food and built the castles and roads. Try reading some history.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.

You are either for arms... or you are a self-confessed peasant, desiring some government to take care of you.

If you are of the first, you have use. If the latter, useless.

As I said before, I prefer fisticuffs, improvised weapons, or weapons that could feasibly be self-made. The venerable history and discipline of the martial arts has an appeal of sorts.

Guns just have never done anything for me, but I'll confess I used to have an actual hands-sworn for real truth fetish for swords and knives. They're just... very pretty. So pretty. They gleam, and they make this noise as they move through the air.

Some girls like jewelry. I happen to like my jewelry sharp and dangerous as all get out.

But I mean look, I'm a highlander, it's in the blood for me to charge someone firing off a rifle at me while I'm swingin' a claymore. Most of my ancestors fell in battle that way. I can't deny that part of me any more then my atheist self can resist celebrating christmas.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 7:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, Sig, reading Wulf saying ANYTHING about seeing the good in people should get the prize for the first guffaw of the morning, except in a bad way. When I said that "except for one", I had no doubt there is nobody here who stroked his guns, Wulf was the one I meant. He's one of, if not THE, saddest person I've ever met here, and one I want to know NOTHING about.

Brenda, glad you weren't driven off, and "welcome" to another refugee from the OB. I was there for a while, and got driven off by some pretty vicious actions; I'm surprised you hung in there. Arlo's here, and there have been a couple of people who were "residents" on both boards, Rose among them. This is a good place, despite the usual suspects, and if you could hold your own on the OB, you can handle it here, no question!

It's also great to have a voice from outside the states--we had one Canook (hope you don't find that as offensive as he did, to me it was always a term of endearment), an Ozzie and a couple of Brits; I always appreciate their input. The other one I mention from Canada HATED Americans, so there was no real talking to him; I for one highly appreciate hearing perspectives from outside. And I agree with everything you said.

I'm not participating in this thread much anymore; it's too repetitive, useless, boring in it's predictability, and pretty much down to Anthony insisting the same things he has from the beginning and Byte "stroking" him--and Wulf--versus the occasional other poster. As such, it's a ocmplete waste of time.

I will add one thing and one thing only. To those who keep saying getting rid of "assault weapons" is fruitless because there are so many out there; I disagree. If they were banned, there would be fewer of them in times to come and eventually they would be gone. We're just a short-sighted society (species) and incapable of thinking in the long term. Nothing will come of the efforts at gun regulation, I'm fairly sure; on this issue America is too far gone in its love affair with guns and violence, even long term I don't ever see that changing.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 7:17 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Well,

My ancestors were Vikings. My bloodline runs long.

It is the epitome of stupidity to be disarmed.

It is evil to want to disarm people.

Once again,

THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Not a black-and-white thinker here, but also not willing to say that 3 = 7.

I meant B&W as in there is A cause, and A remedy to it.

And if you think guns have no good use, gimme yours! I actually don't own a real gat!

On second thought, nah. Not an aim & spray type.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 8:04 AM

Quote:
Anthony insisting the same things he has from the beginning and Byte "stroking" him--and Wulf--versus the occasional other poster. As such, it's a ocmplete waste of time.

Huh?

I agreed with Sig not a couple hours ago.

You can't keep walking in here and saying, oh, you're obviously one sided and biased, and then a few posts later say oh, I see you're neutral and being civil. What is that? You're gonna give me another complex.

This whole thread has been about accusations about creepy "stroking" business. I could stand to not have to read the word "stroking" for a couple of days.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 8:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

As I said before, I prefer fisticuffs, improvised weapons, or weapons that could feasibly be self-made. The venerable history and discipline of the martial arts has an appeal of sorts.

We reach!
Quote:

But I mean look, I'm a highlander

Remember what Ramirez taught you!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 8:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Anthony insisting the same things he has from the beginning and Byte "stroking" him--and Wulf--versus the occasional other poster. As such, it's a ocmplete waste of time.

Huh?

Yeah, I found that a bit confusing my own self.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 8:56 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Yanno, y'all could, seriously... stop lying.
That might add to things a little.

You want em banned, say so, don't dance around and hedge and pretend that isn't your intention when it obviously is, that seriously gets up my back.

I offered a very reasonable, rational proposal, none of ya wants to hear it, you want what you want and eff anyone who thinks different, which'd be fine were it not for the fact that we all but hammered certain rights into stone for very good reasons which are every bit as viable today as they were then - I categorically reject any "outdated" argument, the Fourth Amendment, ragged that it is, despite being written by folks who could have never imagined the technological advances down the road, is still every bit as applicable now as it was then, as a case in point.

The folks who wrote these amendments were extremely explicit about their intentions, why those specific rights were ennumerated and what their purpose was, there's endless discussion of it in their own words, which is of course instantly cast aside or ignored when it becomes inconvenient to the extremely biased and often offensive arguments I've seen from both sides.

But one thing for sure, the absolute hypocrisy flagrantly displayed by those who've argued for deliberate infringement of a Constitutional right has not at all impressed me in regards to their credibility, veracity, or trustworthiness, rather more the opposite, because boiled down past all the double talk and the me-first and but-that's-different, when you get right down to the bedrock bottom of it, comes to two words I don't take well from anyone.
"OR ELSE."

How ironic, cause it's that very sentiment and the necessary ability to resist it which got that Amendment hammered in there to begin with, and if I ever doubted how force of any kind is a deterrent the treatment Anthony received on this topic is more than enough evidence thereof, as he is perceived as a too nice to verbally retaliate in the fashion I most certainly would, and look where that went.

I think we're done here.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:12 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Heh.

Frem and I have our differences. Hatred even.

But I agree with him on this one.

Gun-control freaks want to take away your ability to resist.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 10:40 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

www.hourofthetime.com

Welcome to a train station in USSA

Revealed: How TSA agents 'laugh at travelers' naked scanner images in backrooms while flirting with each other, 25 December 2012
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2253172/Revealed-How-TSA-agents-laugh
-travelers-naked-scanner-images-backrooms-flirting-smoking-e-cigarettes.html

Quote:

Government doctors' demand kitchen knives ban

Government doctors say knives are too pointed

A&E doctors are calling for a ban on long pointed kitchen knives to reduce deaths from stabbing.

A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase - and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.

They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon.

The research is published in the British Medical Journal.

The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all.

They consulted 10 top chefs from around the UK, and found such knives have little practical value in the kitchen.

None of the chefs felt such knives were essential, since the point of a short blade was just as useful when a sharp end was needed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 2:40 PM

Seriously, I don't understand why people persist in believing that there's a political solution to the problem of mass murder.

I guess it's convenient. I guess it simplifies things so they don't have to focus on reality too hard.

"If only we had the right laws in place, America would be a paradise on Earth!"

Same with military internvention overseas.

"If only we kill enough foreigners, they're bound to choose Democracy!"

That's the "or else" kind of thinking our mutual Frem is talking about. Laws are the government's "or else!" And guns are the individual's "Yeah, make me!" They don't guarantee freedom, they're just the individual's last defense against freedom being taken away. They give the individual's defiance just a little "oomph." Sure, when the shit hits the fan the individual will lose that fight, but not before giving the government a bloody nose. And historically, it's amazing how individual bullies and collective bullies (i.e.: governments) will change their tactics to avoid that bloody nose.

You'll notice that it's only true "gunbunnies" like Wulf who bloviate about BEING THE ONE TRUE PATRIOT WHAT PUTS THAT DOG DOWN 'CAUSE I AIN'T AFEARED O' NO GUNS! RAWR! Neither Frem nor Anthony cherish such illusions. They just don't want to be disarmed when and if the government turns on 'em. Is that so hard to understand?

Laws never bring about social change. No, they don't. Laws always come very late to that process. Laws are just what happens at the point in the process of social change when somnambulant, affluent citizens actually take notice.

"Whoa, gay marriage is legal now? I guess gay people get to get married then! How weird! Let's order pizza!"

So they get the idea that the law is what caused the social change.

Laws exist--governments exist--to maintain the status quo. That's what an "ordered society" is: a society that stays the same. How pathetic is that? An institution whose sole purpose is to make people think that without it they wouldn't be doing what they think they oughta do anyway. Nobody ever needed a government to enforce majority rule.

But what all of us here want is social change. Social evolution. You want it, I want it, and Frem and Anthony both want it. And how do we get it? Not through government and not through laws.

Just look at gay marriage for a minute.

For the longest time the government avoided even talking about gay marriage. That's the status quo's first response: ignore it and it'll go away. Sure, the Republicans ranted and raved about it constantly, but that's because doing so was entirely politically safe. It was in support of the status quo. Conservatives only take their "principled stands" like this when they reflect what they perceive to be the status quo. The fact that some of them are still ranting about it now is pure habit and denial. In any period of actual social change (like now), the conservatives always take a beating.

So then what happened? Well, support for gay marriage got to be so strong in poll after poll after poll that Obama & Co. realized that if they didn't fall in line with public opinion they were liable to start losing elections.

(THAT's what get's laws passed, btw.)

And boom, Barack Obama goes on national tv to say, "Y'know, I'm kinda for gay marriage now." And now everybody knows gay marriage is on its way. There's no stopping it now. It's gonna be the new status quo, i.e.: the law of the land. But the process began long, long before any state actually legalized it, long before any laws were passed.

So, what are we gonna do about guns? At what point in the social change that would meaningfully reduce the amount of gun violence in this counrty do y'all think we are? I'd say square one. LOOOOOOONG before any meaningful laws are gonna be passed.

The stupidest thing you could do is outlaw them now. Outlawing a thing that the people actually want always brings nothing but misery. And in the long run, after bazillions of dollars have been wasted in the effort, it never works anyway. What we need is for Americans to stop wanting (loving/desiring/fetishizing) guns so damn badly.

How'd it work in the past? How'd we get gun legislation passed before? How'd we get that all-powerful assault weapons ban passed? Well, of course there are always a ton of reasons, but the one I'm gonna say trumps 'em all is this: trust in our government.

I submit that if we as a nation trusted our government more we'd be able to pass anti-gun laws like we used to. (It's kind of a tautology, ain'it?) But who cares about that? The truth is, if our government were to start being trustworthy tomorrow, we'd cut down on the number of mass murders in the first place. 'Cause as long as our government's policies reflect a belief that social change issues from the barrel of a gun, that force of arms (i.e.: "or else" i.e.: laws) is what we need to make the world a better place, INDIVIDUALS WILL FOLLOW THAT EXAMPLE. If our government were to really stop the fucking torture, and cut military spending FOR REAL, and stop denying that we kill the weak and defenseless with every strike, then our citizens would follow suit and there would be a real reduction in gun violence in this country.

How is it that people don't make that connection? How is it that we think that if we just take guns away from "the right people," that this problem will go away? It's absurd and it's childish and it's never gonna work anyway.

Carry on.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 4:00 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

That would have to be the most hopeless, defeatest post I have read in a long time.

Laws can and do bring about social change. Sometimes they lead social changes, sometimes they follow it, but for every law passed there are repercussions, sometimes for good and sometimes not. I can think of numerous laws of the top of my head that have had far reaching consequences on marriage, on ownership of property by women, on giving women the vote, on abolishing slavery, have enabled and ended segregation, prevented discrimination on the basis of race and gender, prevented employers from using child labour, porviding the basis of free speech, freedom of dissent and indeed your own constitution.

Your idea that there is no law that can affect any situation in society ludicrously ignores the history of law making.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 4:03 PM

Um, kinda missed the point there, Magons. Not surprising at this juncture. That post is anything but defeatist.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 4:43 PM

All kinds of hope in your post. I'd like to agree. My inner Picard makes it so.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:31 PM

I actually agree with HK about how much difference laws make, but all of you know I was going to.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I actually agree with HK about how much difference laws make, but all of you know I was going to.

I did.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured potentially disagreeing Bytemites {Joke}

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, December 28, 2012 5:44 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

FREM

Quote:
Yanno, y'all could, seriously... stop lying. That might add to things a little. You want em banned, say so, don't dance around and hedge and pretend that isn't your intention when it obviously is, that seriously gets up my back.

If you're talking to me the answer is... no, I don't want "'em" banned, at least not yet. I truly haven't made up my mind and I have, in the words of our senior politicians, ALL options on the table.

OTOH, some of you will only consider ONE solution. But what if that one solution doesn't work??? If CHRIS thinks that only considering ONE solution makes a person a black-and-white thinker, that puts you in that category, does it not?

Quote:
I offered a very reasonable, rational proposal

Yes, one. One which passes your criteria of acceptability. I heard it. It's under consideration.

Quote:
The folks who wrote these amendments were extremely explicit about their intentions...

And blah blah blah... Yanno, I researched to 2A too. That bit about well-regulated militias was not put in there for you, the Supreme Court, and all gun-nuts to ignore, and when the Supreme Court decided that the 2A protected individual right to own a gun, you all got handed a nice, juicy, totally unwarranted kiss on the ass. The right to own guns belongs with the STATES. Because it was the STATES RIGHTS the FF were protecting, not yours.

So, here's the thing: While I fight to protect the amendments, you will not hear me whining that the government's failure to protect this amendment or that amendment will impede my (so-called) "right" to a revolution.

Because if you and your three best friends are actually counting munitions and talking about taking down the government through violent overthrow, you're already so many ways illegal that your gun ownership will be the least of your worries. Demanding permission for a revolution... my god, how many flavors of childish is that?

Revolution will always be illegal. Deal with it.

Quote:
But one thing for sure, the absolute hypocrisy flagrantly displayed by those who've argued for deliberate infringement of a Constitutional right

I've already told you where I think that right ends. I thought the FF were pretty damn clear.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, December 28, 2012 5:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

TONY...

There are at least five pages in this discussion that I haven't read due to time constraints.

If you would be so kind, can you please enumerate for me the gun controls you would be OK with and the ones you wouldn't? For reference, you can look at the list (below)

-----------------------
GERMANY'S GUN LAWS

For those of you who keep pointing to GERMANY as a nation with high gun ownership and low gun death-rates, I will point out that GERMANY'S gun laws are far stricter than ours.

You need a license to sell and transport guns and ammunition.
ALL guns and ammunition sales are recorded.
You can only buy the ammunition that your (registered) gun allows.

In order to OWN a gun, you MUST have a license. There are no unlicensed "gun collectors", there are no unlicensed inheritances.

You get your license from the police.
In order to get a license, you have to show "need". Very few are sold for the purposes of "self protection"... in order to get one of those, you have to be in the security business.
If you want to target practice, you must belong to a recognized club.
The only other recognized use is hunting.

In order to obtain a license, you must pass both a criminal and mental health background check.

In order to get the lowest form of license, you need a THREE DAY course with a practicum at the end.

In order to get a hunting license, you need a ONE YEAR course. You fail it. that's it. No do-overs. (I read about one lady who stood to lose her antique hunting gun which had been passed down through the generations, so she was busy studying for her hunting practicum.)

Fully automatic guns... or even guns which LOOK LIKE full automatics, are banned.
Large capacity magazines are banned.
Teflon-coated and expanding rounds are prohibited.
Each gun must have an engraved registry number.

Guns MUST BE stored under lock and key.
Ammunition MUST BE stored separately, also under lock and key.

There is no "castle" defense and no "stand your ground" laws. You shoot first amd you kill someone, you are likely to be charged with murder.

Yanno, there are SO MANY gun laws in Germany, I prolly forget a few, but I think you get the idea: Germany is not a gun-owners paradise!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, December 28, 2012 6:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
You can't keep walking in here and saying, oh, you're obviously one sided and biased, and then a few posts later say oh, I see you're neutral and being civil.

Of course I can, Byte. If you write something which seems biased to me, I can say so; if you later write something that seems neutral, I can say that too. I don't think I ever said you weren't being biased in this thread, however; civil, yes, you usually are, but I see a large bias going on.

The sentence was a bad one, I'll try again:

Quote:
Anthony insisting the same things he has from the beginning and Byte backing him up versus Sig, Chris or the occasional other poster. As such, it's a complete waste of time.

Mention of Wulf was just a waste of space, so maybe that makes it clearer.

Quote:
You want em banned, say so, don't dance around and hedge and pretend that isn't your intention when it obviously is, that seriously gets up my back.

Frem, that really pisses me off. I mean seriously! That you lump me in with "y'all" makes smoke come out my ears. I have every fucking right in the WORLD to want to see some reasonable restrictions on guns without it meaning I want to ban them all. That is a stupid, idiotic stance to take, I expect better from you. I have NO desire to see all guns banned, whatsoever, can we get clear about that? And I'm certainly not "lying" about anything. I've been very clear, I believe, in what I'd like to see:

A ban of all semi-auto and automatic weapons.
A ban of all high-capacity magazines.
A closing of the "gun-show" loophole and required background checks on all guns purchased anywhere.

That's my stance, there is no lying about it, and I resent the HELL out of you calling me a liar! Your attitude absolutely exemplifies the pro-gun person's stance: "If you want ANY curb on guns, you wanna take all my guns away". Pure stupidity.

You wanna reject any "outdated" concept, fine; then we have to put all African-Americans back in chains, take away women's right to vote, let legislatures decide who the two Senators from their state will be, and other things that have been amended.

As to Cav's rant, I agree with Magons. Laws have and do effect social change. Social changes also have and do effect laws. It's not an "either/or" situation.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, December 28, 2012 7:54 AM