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Originally posted by Niki2:

How do our pro-gun folk explain this?

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Or perhaps find me some case where an ax all by itself decided to murder some people, yeah.

-F

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, no one has accidentally strangled a toddler while cleaning their seat-belt.

But you won't find any gun advocates honest enough to aknoweldge this.

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Originally posted by Hero:
Apples are red or green and round and can be sweet or sour depending on the type and can be grown in a variety of climates. Oranges are round and orange colored and can only be grown in warmer climates. They are sweet and have a distictive flavor.

By liberal definitions...Apples and Oranges are the same thing.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
That argument is just as vapid.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
I kinda "get" their "logic". But the flaw in the logic is that seat belts don't kill people (if you want to bicker, okay, "A LOT") when misused or just kept around "in case", nor does most anything ELSE intended to prevent harm.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'm the only person here who could possible be described as an anti gun fanatic. I am so anti gun, I do not allow my son to own toy guns.

However, I'm from another country. I don't fully understand why large segments of the population appear so myopic about wanting to own guns.

The evidence appears to strongly suggest that an armed population increases the chances of having a gun being used against the population.
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Originally posted by Hero:

I didn't see anyone address your point.

You are from another country and you acknowledge that it has colored your understanding of America''s gun culture. The origins of that culture are very clear if you examine American history and our development from a colonial nation to a revolutionairy nation, a frontier nation and into modern times which up until the last fifty years placed liberty and personal responsibility among our most closely held virtues. Our legacy is a nation of explorers, hunters, trappers, wilderness families, gunfighters, and liberators. We hold dear our freedoms...so dear we place our freedom to speak our minds and worship as we please first among our rights. Second, is our arms because having escaped a world ruled by kings and tyrants and with the example of all human history to look upon we chose not to place our faith in government but rather in ourselves. Governments can be defeated, conquered, or corrupted, but we believe that a free people concieved in liberty and given the means to protect it...we cannot be defeated. Now this reasoning, like all human reasoning has it's flaws, but it is what has driven this nation since before its inception.

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"We need to brainwash people to think about guns in a vastly different way."
-US attorney general Eric Holder, director of the OK City Bombing coverup and Operation Fast and Furious that gave 20,000 assault rifles to the Mexican mafia, CSPAN2

"We don't let them have ideas. Why would we let them have guns?"
-Joseph Stalin J?u?ašvili

“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life.”
-John F. Kennedy, before CIA's and Pentagon's Operation Northwoods blew his head off on live TV

"There's going to be a Marxist revolution in Amerika. We need to be organized and grow the movement."
-Barack Hussein Obama Soetoro, foreign exchange student member of the Young Marxist Club at Occidental College
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/meeting_young_obama.html

“Any fourth grade history student knows socialism has failed in every country, at every time in history. President Obama and his fellow Democrats are either idiots or deliberately trying to destroy their own economy.”
-Vladimir Putin KGB president

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Niki,

Tell you what.

You live by your beliefs.

Disarm. Get rid of anything that can be used as a weapon. Steak knives included. Then, tell everyone HERE where you live. Address please.

Next, put a sign on your front lawn letting people know that you are a gun-free household.

Do all that. Go on. Do it.

If you do those things.... really do them... I might begin to listen to you.

Until then: You are just a hippie crackpot, trying to make the rest of us defenseless. To make us unarmed so we can't stop you when you push your agenda.

In other words: a BULLY.


P.S. Every bully I had to deal with, ended up in the hospital.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Had a fatal auto crash here a few days ago. All the dead were wearing seat belts. Obviously, seat belts do no good and should not be worn. Right?

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
What room is there to "debate" with an obvious fanatic ?

Oh, yes, and airbags have killed a few folk too.
The world is not a safe place, hell, you can trip on a curb and break your damn neck - but tellya what, you wanna supposedly "debate" it, which I don't believe for even a picosecond, then you find me one single instance of a firearm going off all by its lonesome without any human intervention whatsoever, one case where it suddenly went off all by itself and caused harm.

Or perhaps find me some case where an ax all by itself decided to murder some people, yeah.

-F

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Isn't murder illegal?

There are laws against that, arn't there?

I mean, you would think murder would be illegal.

If not, lets make a law against it. Hell, make 3! Also, make the penalty really harsh.

That'll fix the problem!

Idiots.


"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Niki,

Tell you what.

You live by your beliefs.

Disarm. Get rid of anything that can be used as a weapon. Steak knives included. Then, tell everyone HERE where you live. Address please.

Next, put a sign on your front lawn letting people know that you are a gun-free household.

Do all that. Go on. Do it.

If you do those things.... really do them... I might begin to listen to you.

Until then: You are just a hippie crackpot, trying to make the rest of us defenseless. To make us unarmed so we can't stop you when you push your agenda.

In other words: a BULLY.


P.S. Every bully I had to deal with, ended up in the hospital.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
No prob Niki,

I know you live in an echo chamber.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh my heard the Rockets Red Glare booming from your post. Very patriotic. Thanks for your burst of national pride. Hope you feel all swell about the gun death stats now.

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Lets do an experiment.

We both post signs outside our home and on Craigslist.

Mine says, "Owners armed, intruders will be shot...many, many times."

Yours says, "Owners have no weapons and do not trust the police. If you rob us, your safety is guaranteed."

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh my heard the Rockets Red Glare booming from your post. Very patriotic. Thanks for your burst of national pride. Hope you feel all swell about the gun death stats now.

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I regret every criminal or accidental gun death and celebrate every legal use of firearms. By comparison I've found my regrets far outnumbered.

I noticed you failed to mention your country of origin. Guess your feeling a bit ashamed. Don't be. Its ok to be from another country and to honor and celebrate your heritage here in America, the land that our liberty and firearms have made free and prosperous to accept your request to travel here to make a life for yourself.

I asked you where your from, I think its relevant. Also, why are you here? What was it that brought you to the land of the free and home of the brave?

H


Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Lets do an experiment.

We both post signs outside our home and on Craigslist.

Mine says, "Owners armed, intruders will be shot...many, many times."

Yours says, "Owners have no weapons and do not trust the police. If you rob us, your safety is guaranteed."

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Ok, right-wingers scrambling to change the issue away from gun homicide, to burglary. That's fairly predictable.

The key point here is that a good man with a gun - even a well trained one - is not always enough to stop (or deter) a determined murderer with a gun.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
You do realize that the internet is not America... right? One needn't be in America, or an American to post here.

You really did know that, didn't you?

Sometimes "Hero" posts things that just leave one's jaw on the floor, they're so mind-numbingly dumb.

As to your "land of the free and home of the brave" - where do you think all those "pioneers" and "explorers" came from? England, Portugal, Spain, France, Germany - in other words, elsewhere.

And they were also coming here bent on genocide and oppression of the people already here. You tend to leave that part out of your rosy little "history" lesson, I notice.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
[One thing that I *KNOW* my neighbors knew I had, well apart from any guns I might have had or they might have known about, was a dog. Your safety if you rob me is absolutely not guaranteed.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why have laws against child abuse or kiddie porn if those kinds of people are going to do it anyway? Why not just let them do what they're going to do. So some people get hurt - that's the cost of freedom! Even Frem must agree with that, right?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yet another swing and a miss. Two, actually.

You're still operating under the idiotic notion that Magons is *IN* America because she's posting in English. You can't honestly be this stupid, can you?


Second, nope, my dog is just fine. The other guy, not so much. He never got in the house, because he decided it would be easier to jump the fence and break in through the glass back door. Only he forgot about the Dobermann in the back yard.

That was the first and only time anyone attempted to break in.

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yet another swing and a miss. Two, actually.

You're still operating under the idiotic notion that Magons is *IN* America because she's posting in English. You can't honestly be this stupid, can you?


Second, nope, my dog is just fine. The other guy, not so much. He never got in the house, because he decided it would be easier to jump the fence and break in through the glass back door. Only he forgot about the Dobermann in the back yard.

That was the first and only time anyone attempted to break in.

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Wow, quite a story. You must be truly gratefull...that the guy didn't have a gun. Cause otherwise your dog would be dead.

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As for your other issue...where is Magon? You have a point, one that is small an irrelevent to the larger issue. I reviewed the original post and she said she is from another country. She did not say she was in America. I believe her use of the word from implied she was no longer there, but I concede that its possible she's still there. Or she could be neither here nor there. Her posting in English was only relevent in that I understood what she wrote. Had she posted in French, Chinese, or ancient Sumarian...I admit I'd have probably not responded...cause its true...I only respond to postings in English.

By your reasoning...you are so stupid because you assumed she didnt write the original post here, then travel back there. What, they dont have planes where your from. Your face must be so red because you dont know where she is at any given moment...or me. I never said I was in America either. Maybe none of us are...which, by your reasoning, makes any discussion on the interaction of guns in our respective cultures completey useless. Because physical location is essential to talking about what our respective cultures think.

Out of respect for your limited imagination I will add a third question to my questions for Magon.

1. Where are you from?

2. Why did you come here? If you didnt come here I apologize for the misunderstanding.

3. Most important because without this there can be no further reasonable discusion between anyone on any issue ever...where are you now? Because certain people say we can't talk about where we're from unless we know where we are. Btw, I'm in Ohio...which is often considered in America. Ironically, I'm not from here...which by Kwicko's reasoning means I could be somewhere else.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Originally posted by Hero:

Well, clearly you have a problem with Magon who I thought raised a very good point that had yet to be addressed. In short Magon indicated that she was not from America and that because of this she was having trouble understanding America's gun culture. Apparently you want to ignore her contribution and force her agreement with your conclusions.

My response to her actually address what she said and to make the point that America's gun culture existed as a direct result of our colonial origins and can be traced through American history as a reflection of the our values despite our evolution to modern times.

Her country of origin is relevent because it gives a a specific frame of reference in order to explore the nature of guns in her culture, our culture, and the interaction between the two. For example, if Magon is from a rural village in China as oppsoed to a city in Norway then her experiance and understanding will differ dramatically. An Isreali would have a different view then a Mexican...and so on.

I asked what brought her here. I thought that was important because I sincerely doubt her answer is ''I came to America to be raped, robbed, and/or to see my children enslaved'. I can't speak to her reasons but I suspect that opportunity is at the heart of her reasoning...which asked the question, 'why is there opportunity here and not where she's from?" There is something about America that made it a good choice to come here and not stay there. I suspect that whatever it is that something is ultimately tied to American culture of which guns are a part.

So having read HER comment I felt it worthy of exporation...but I guess you diagree because in your mind America can do no right. Being part cherokee I understand your limited cultrual understanding of the colonization of America. One could suggest, using your logic, that some combination of Rome, the Germanic barbarians, and the Mongul horde is responsible for all of the problems you attribute to America. Really it all traces to the first guy who grunted to himself that he'd rather live 'other there' then 'over here' and knocked his cavegirl over the head and headed over the next hill. We've built a nation here, more perfect and one where prosperity and the blessings of liberty can be had by anyone. Now maybe that's not something your interested in, but that's your right...because of America.

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why have laws against child abuse or kiddie porn if those kinds of people are going to do it anyway? Why not just let them do what they're going to do. So some people get hurt - that's the cost of freedom! Even Frem must agree with that, right?

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Mikey, thing is we ALREADY have laws in place which address the matter.
Adding more vaguely worded laws with very broad interpretations just begging for misuse isn't really an answer to it - addressing the root causes of why folks wanna shoot each other is a more appropriate use of time and resources.

And frankly, I resent the baiting, Mikey - I've pointed out the the deceit and hypocrisy involved in this matter cause there *IS* substantial deceit and hypocrisy, and to allow it to go unchallenged is both reckless and dangerous.
Which "side" commits it means naught to me, as I'll have at them both with equal fervor, and so one of them getting a free pass on it strikes me as flat out bullshit.

I also noted that the exact SAME logic is behind the push to restrict voting did I not ?
So why is it appropriate here and not there ?
Care to comment, then ?

-F

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


I don't want my son to go to a school where you need metal detectors at the doors, where there might be armed guards, or armed teachers. Sounds like a prison to me.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
So your point is that if anyone has a gun, they absolutely MUST find something to kill with it? There exists in your mind no possibility that someone with a gun might choose not to shoot?

You've just made a great case for fewer people having guns, if only to cut down on the volume of gunfire flying around the country!

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Hero, you do realise that you can post on this forum from countries other than the US? That there are those of here who are actually sitting at our computers who are outside the US right now. I know that might blow your mind to know that other countries exist in the world where

So in answer to your question, I live on the outskirts of Melbourne, Australia. If you look back through the threads, there is another one about a protest against McDOnalds. That's my town right there.

In the past, um 10 years or so, I've talked to enough Americans on the internet to understand the basis for their beliefs around gun ownership but I do not now, nor will I ever comprehend what seems to basically a stupid argument to me. I do think that the FF would be turning in their graves to see that part of the constitution misrepresented and misused, and disastrous consequences of that misrepresentation.

Additionally, I point it out because I am the most gun adverse person on this forum, but again, my views are not affecting US citizens because I have no impact on your laws (so I'm not trying to take your 'freedoms' *coughbullshitcough* away from you)

Edit, Although I'd love to visit America again for a holiday, I have no desire to live there and one the reasons would be due to the amount of violent crime, particularly gun crime. I don't want my son to go to a school where you need metal detectors at the doors, where there might be armed guards, or armed teachers. Sounds like a prison to me.

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