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Kentucky boy, 5, shoots 2-year-old sister with .22 rifle he received as a gift
Thursday, May 9, 2013 4:58 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Can't think that I've ever put forward the "slippery slope" argument. However, the folks who are afraid of gun banning always tend to say, "Look at what they did in Australia".
Thursday, May 9, 2013 5:51 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: The ADULTS responsible for Fast and Furious WERE dealt with. As with all your other bullshit, your corollary doesn't hold. It was Mike brought up the Pres. and AG in relation toresponsibility concerning F&F. Why don't you have a problem with that? Quote:The NRA doesn't give a damn about who lives or dies, they've become employees of the gun industry and only care about profit. The idea of stashing guns in children's bedrooms shows clearly they just want to sell more guns, period. And speaking of bullshit.
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: The ADULTS responsible for Fast and Furious WERE dealt with. As with all your other bullshit, your corollary doesn't hold.
Quote:The NRA doesn't give a damn about who lives or dies, they've become employees of the gun industry and only care about profit. The idea of stashing guns in children's bedrooms shows clearly they just want to sell more guns, period.
Thursday, May 9, 2013 7:04 PM
PIRATENEWS
John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!
Thursday, May 9, 2013 8:35 PM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Nope. Safety precautions is safety precautions, be it protection and safety rules in a car race or at a shooting range. Eye and hearing protection, control of ammunition, enforced rules for keeping firearms pointed down-range and keeping fingers off triggers until ready to shoot are exactly analogous to the precautions taken for these kids' races.
Quote: Not sure why you can't see that a hazard is a hazard, be it gun, pool, race car, bike, kitchen knife, or street crossing. If you responsibly supervise your child, they can use any one of these safely. If you don't, they can be injured or killed. Probably has to do with your conception of firearms as "...weapons designed to maim and kill". I know mine are generally used to make holes in paper far away. That's what most people use them for. Some also hunt.
Quote: Also lots of laws around the use of firearms, reckless endangerment, etc. Parents of children who injure or kill themselves or others with firearms, or other things, are regularly charged, as here: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/state/parents-charged-in-death-of-9-year-old-ohio-boy-fatally-shot I got no outrage around background checks. I thought the recent legislation sponsored by Sens, Manchin and Toomey was reasonable. I don't think expanded background checks will really accomplish much, but if it makes you feel better...
Quote: Can't think that I've ever put forward the "slippery slope" argument. However, the folks who are afraid of gun banning always tend to say, "Look at what they did in Australia".
Friday, May 10, 2013 2:49 AM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: We are comparing apples with oranges here. A tiny car with miniscule power does not compare to a 22 caliber children's rifle.
Quote:The difference is comparing a weapon, whatever its use, with something that is not a weapon. A swimming pool is used for swimming, it was not designed to drown people.
Friday, May 10, 2013 3:32 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: The ADULTS responsible for Fast and Furious WERE dealt with. As with all your other bullshit, your corollary doesn't hold. It was Mike brought up the Pres. and AG in relation toresponsibility concerning F&F. Why don't you have a problem with that? Quote:The NRA doesn't give a damn about who lives or dies, they've become employees of the gun industry and only care about profit. The idea of stashing guns in children's bedrooms shows clearly they just want to sell more guns, period. And speaking of bullshit.
Friday, May 10, 2013 4:46 AM
WULFENSTAR
http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg
Friday, May 10, 2013 3:50 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: As noted, firearms are seldom used as weapons, and mostly for recreation and sport. You probably use a knife in your kitchen, yet they have been used as weapons for thousands of years. How do you feel about archery? Ever have a slingshot? Throw javelin in track? Toss a rock? All have been weapons. I use a machete to clear brush. In Rwanda, the Hutus used them to kill hundreds of thousands of Tutsis. So is a machete a tool or a weapon?
Friday, May 10, 2013 3:53 PM
Quote:Originally posted by WULFENSTAR: The best defense against these kind of things? Responsibility. Yes, lefties, the terrible "R" word that you guys can't seem to comprehend/grasp. Yes, responsibility, is what you are truly scared of. The parents of this child were IRRESPONSIBLE with their children, and their guns. They, and the children, are paying/have paid the price for this. "None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."
Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:03 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Saturday, May 11, 2013 4:23 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: As noted, firearms are seldom used as weapons, and mostly for recreation and sport. You probably use a knife in your kitchen, yet they have been used as weapons for thousands of years. How do you feel about archery? Ever have a slingshot? Throw javelin in track? Toss a rock? All have been weapons. I use a machete to clear brush. In Rwanda, the Hutus used them to kill hundreds of thousands of Tutsis. So is a machete a tool or a weapon? What kind of sport? Are you of the ilk that calls hunting a sport? Are you talking about sports shooting at ranges?
Quote:In any case, I don't think these are activities that five year olds, should participate in with weapons. It isn't appropriate for a 5 year old, supervised or not to have a lethal weapon in their possession, that goes for any weapon that has the capacity to do serious injury or cause death, yes including sharp kitchen knives or machetes. If you want to teach them about target practise, let them use something less lethal. If you want to take them hunting, let them hold the freaking lunch bag.
Quote:I'd like to see some evidence that guns were not intended as weapons by the majority of people in the US. It seems clear to me that the intent of owning guns for many americans is not recreational - please also note I have issue with hunting being considered recreational - but for 1) self defense 2) in defense against tyranny
Quote:I note that many gun advocates use the same tired arguments. firstly they claim that those in favour of gun restriction want bans on all weapons, some even propose its a conspiracy, that the intent is a blanket ban. I haven't seen that argument proposed by any on this board. I'd guess that people who want to see some restrictions would have many varied views on what restrictions should be in place.
Quote:Next they argue that guns are no worse than swimming pools or cars. Well there are restrictions around swimming pools and cars, there are restrictions around all sorts of things that have the capacity to do lethal damage. If you see that lots of deaths are occuring due to something, the usual response is to tighten restrictions around the use of that something. So for some reason, gun advocates manage a whole range of restrictions in other areas of their lives, but that should not apply to weapons. Really?
Quote:And if you are in favour of some restrictions, as you claim, then what would be the issue with including an age restriction of weapon use. Why should the mentally ill have less rights than a five year old?
Saturday, May 11, 2013 1:57 PM
Quote:Originally posted by GEEZER: Yes. both target shooting and hunting. Sorry you don't like hunting, but lots of folks do. I'm assuming from your dislike of killing animals that you're a vegan.
Quote: If you don't want your kids to shoot or hunt, that's your right. Why do you have a problem with other people who act in a responsible and safe manner allowing their children to be involved with such sports in a safe and controlled manner?
Quote: In 2009, around 34 million Americans over the age of 18 (15% of the population) participated in target shooting in one form or another. http://www.statisticbrain.com/hunting-statistics/ Around 12.5 million people spend about 200 million days hunting annually. So assuming some overlap, there's probably 40 million or so folks who participate in one sort of shooting sport or other per year.
Quote:Per the CDC's WISQUARS system, there were 105,555 firearms related injuries in 2011. That's accident, homicide and suicide; both fatal and non-fatal. So it looks like there's a whole lot of people doing a whole lot of shooting that aren't doing any killing and maiming. http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/facts.html
Quote: But outright bans of particular types of weapons have been proposed, and not just by folks on this board. "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them... "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in," I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here." -U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, CBS-TV's "60 Minutes," February 5, 1995, speaking about her authorship of the 1994 "assault weapons" ban "Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of Americans to feel safe." -U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, quoted by the Associated Press, November 18, 1993 When senior legislators talk like this, some might consider it a threat.
Quote: And as noted before, there ARE all types or restrictions around firearms, relating on who can own them, who can buy them, where they can be taken and used, and types of liabity or punishment for improper use - be it purposeful or accidental. You seem to keep missing, or ignoring, this point.
Quote: It gets back to responsibility. A five year old supervised by a responsible adult, following proper safety procedures, using proper eye and ear protection and a proper shooting range, is going to be remarkably safe.
Quote:A person who had been adjudged by a court to be dangerously mentally unstable is not responsible, and may very well have no concept of the consequences of their actions, or else not care.
Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:03 PM
Quote:Originally posted by GEEZER: It gets back to responsibility. A five year old supervised by a responsible adult, following proper safety procedures, using proper eye and ear protection and a proper shooting range, is going to be remarkably safe.
Quote:An 8-year-old boy died after accidentally shooting himself in the head while firing an Uzi submachine gun under adult supervision at a gun fair. The boy lost control of the weapon while firing it Sunday at the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club, Police Lt. Lawrence Valliere said. Police identified the child Monday as Christopher Bizilj of Ashford, Conn. Police said Christopher was with a certified instructor, and they called the incident a "self-inflicted accidental shooting." The boy's father and older brother were also there at the time, a gun club member and school official said. "The weapon was loaded and ready to fire," police Lt. Hipolito Nunez said. "The 8-year-old victim had the Uzi and as he was firing the weapon, the front end of the weapon went up with the backfire and he ended up receiving a round in his head." The boy was taken to Baystate Medical Center where he died. Francis Mitchell, a longtime member and trustee of the club, said he saw the boy's father supporting his son from behind when the accident happened.
Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:11 PM
Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:20 PM
Quote:While adults and lawmakers debate gun safety laws, little kids shoot — and sometimes kill — their playmates accidentally. A barrage of recent headlines show that this is more common than you’d think. Which makes any sane person wonder: How are so many young children getting their hands on these weapons, and how did they learn how to use them? Maybe Crickett Rifle’s habit of marketing kid-sized rifles to parents and children has something to do with it. The ad shows the gun-toting father and son marching out of the house for a day of manly fun with their guns, while mom and sis smile fondly in the background, and the neighbor’s son — whose apparently negligent parents have sent him out to play with nothing but a crappy old soccer ball — looks on with naked envy. After a montage of tender father-son moments, mom and sis join in with their own dainty, lady-like rifles. Fun for the whole family! Justin Peters from Slate observes that the coroner in Kentucky pronounced the two-year-old sister dead and brushed off the incident as “just one of those crazy accidents,” then adds:Quote:“The fact that this 5-year-old boy had a rifle wasn’t an accident, though—it had been given to him as a gift the previous year. The Crickett is a small, single-shot starter rifle made specifically for young shooters. It’s produced by Keystone Sporting Arms, a gunmaker that specializes in the manufacture of ‘quality firearms for America’s youth.’ In addition to the Crickett, which is marketed with the tagline ‘My First Rifle,’ Keystone Sporting Arms manufactures the Chipmunk rifle and Chipmunk accessories, though this product page reveals that they’ve discontinued the ‘Chipmunk 4 x 32 Scope.’” Highlights from the commercial include:Quote:Dad fondly remembers his own father taking a Crickett rifle out of the box and handing it to him over the kitchen table, and declares: "My first rifle. A moment you never forget." Aw, how sweet. But I bet the five-year-old boy’s father wishes he’d given his son a guitar instead.Quote:The Cricket is the perfect way to get younger, small-trained shooters started right. With a safety-promoting design. It’s smaller, soft-shooting, and accurate.” Too bad the bullets aren’t as soft as the shooting. The scary thing about this commercial is how it makes guns look so easy, wholesome, and fun.Quote:As the camera pans out on mom and sis, who’ve come to join dad and son for a li’l back yard shooting, with their cute pink and yellow rifles: “Girls — and even Mom — will love how they can pick one to their own taste.” Even mom, huh? Such a nice message for Mother’s DayQuote: “Crickett. My First Rifle. Find one online, or ask for a Crickett Rifle from your local dealer,” the ad concludes. http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/05/11/must-see-video-shows-how-crickett-rifles-markets-guns-to-children-video/#ixzz2T2JgjQZ7]
Quote:“The fact that this 5-year-old boy had a rifle wasn’t an accident, though—it had been given to him as a gift the previous year. The Crickett is a small, single-shot starter rifle made specifically for young shooters. It’s produced by Keystone Sporting Arms, a gunmaker that specializes in the manufacture of ‘quality firearms for America’s youth.’ In addition to the Crickett, which is marketed with the tagline ‘My First Rifle,’ Keystone Sporting Arms manufactures the Chipmunk rifle and Chipmunk accessories, though this product page reveals that they’ve discontinued the ‘Chipmunk 4 x 32 Scope.’”
Quote:Dad fondly remembers his own father taking a Crickett rifle out of the box and handing it to him over the kitchen table, and declares: "My first rifle. A moment you never forget."
Quote:The Cricket is the perfect way to get younger, small-trained shooters started right. With a safety-promoting design. It’s smaller, soft-shooting, and accurate.”
Quote:As the camera pans out on mom and sis, who’ve come to join dad and son for a li’l back yard shooting, with their cute pink and yellow rifles: “Girls — and even Mom — will love how they can pick one to their own taste.”
Quote: “Crickett. My First Rifle. Find one online, or ask for a Crickett Rifle from your local dealer,” the ad concludes.
Saturday, May 11, 2013 5:17 PM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Saturday, May 11, 2013 6:26 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: "The boy's father and older brother were also there at the time, a gun club member and school official said." Aside from my initial response which is to congratulate the father on a job well done, I think we should gives Uzi's to everyone regardless of age, training, and background, and then watch as we Darwin ourselves. And a shout-out to Geezer who should be first on the range with the pre-school class and their 'toy' Uzi's.
Sunday, May 12, 2013 1:56 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: I just don't consider killing animals to be a sport or a recreation. If you want to hunt for your own food, then fine, so long as you hunt appropriately. If you want to hunt animals so you can display their majestic heads, then you're a piece of work and I abhor you. I might keep chooks and kill them for food, but I certainly would never say to my husband or my child when I going to kill one 'out for a bit of sport,hon. Just going to cut this chicken's head off.' see the difference.
Quote:Fine. So you won't mind proposals to ban military style weapons, or restrictions on where and when people can use weapons. Because clearly for most people, its about target practise at a range, or hunting.
Quote:Right, so by your logic it would take every gun owner to use the gun to kill or maim before you would consider changes in gun laws.
Quote:The fact that your gun deaths per capita is on a par with failed states, and 10 X greater than my own country and 40X greater than the UK, isn't enough for you to consider change.
Quote:I disagree. I wouldn't allow a five year to pick up a potentially lethal weapon, for safety and for moral reasons. I wouldn't allow a five year old to drive a car under supervision, or use a chainsaw or many other tasks. A five year old simply doesn't have the cognitive or physical capacity to do these tasks, so asking them to do them is simply bad parenting.
Sunday, May 12, 2013 2:22 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by GEEZER: I guess you and I have different definitions of what "remarkably safe" means.
Quote:Originally posted by GEEZER: I guess you and I have different definitions of what "remarkably safe" means.
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