REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Our truest selves?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 20:34
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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I need to think a bit about what this means. I guess, for me, whether I understand it or not I do not express it by default. I try to understand so I can express something useful and acceptable.

I don't claim that my way is good. :)


Likewise. This has been all very useful for me, and I use it as part of my work with clients and students, butI'm too wise and old to say that any one theory fits all people.

Likewise, many people find CBT - Cognitive Behavioural Therapy useful, and I don't see it as being without value. Just not right for me at a particular stage in my life. I have seen that it might be useful for some people - those who tend to catastrophise, and/or get hysterical over minor issues.


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Try this: I am not in the habit of having emotional responses, so when I have a real one I control it tightly because I do not know how to control it and fear what it will do if I let it go.

I don't get overwhelmed because I don't understand the emotion.


It may actually be that you actually know your emotions very well, and you have strategies for managing emotions before they become too overwhelming, ie emotion coaching calls for dealing with lower level emotions, before the amygdala hijack sets in and you've got zip chance of managing anything.

Being emotionally intelligent is not so much about the response, but knowing what you feel. It's the difference between saying 'I feel really irratated, so I better walk away before I blow my top' and walking around like a time bomb filled with high levels of emotion, just waiting for a trigger to set you to blow. An increasing number of our population fit into this, hence you get road rage, people taking a king hit on someone because they look at them funny et al. Or drinking/drugging away the emotional pain that they have no way of managing.


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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MAL4, deepest apologies for not responding. I thought your post was interesting and a kick-in-the-pants reminder just how different we all are. I assumed that everyone had a problem with runaway emotion; it seems to me that we don't ALL have that problem. I thought some things were particularly interesting, and some things left me feeling very intrigued (my dd would say "nosy")

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OK, so I am Spock-like. When some events occur that evokes an emotional response (see? Spock.) I do not just go with it. There's a process of: What am I feeling? Really? Why? Is it what I should feel?
Should?
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Is it ok to express that right now? Should I express something else? etc etc. Not that I don't feel things, but I've always been analytical about it all. My head examines my gut, so to speak.
All of those questions are useful. But I wonder how you would judge "should" from "shouldn't"

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At some point many years ago I began to adjust this a bit. At the time, I called it "thinking without words." Try to be aware of how your thoughts work. For me, it's pretty much always a narration of words flying about in my head, a somewhat logical process though many words certainly do spring up from the subconscious. But they are words. There is a controlled and conscious method of thought.
Intriguing

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I think the "thought without words" came from ice hockey. There are pure moments in the game where a series of action happen without any single word. I can describe the action as: "The other player is going to make a bad pass and if I step up here, now I can get it and catch it in my skates and cut left no deke right and go to the backhand... " etc. But in the moment there's no time for all that. In the moment the decision to deke right is not planned. Something deeper than the conscious mind is driving, and it's connected in to all the limbs and the hands and the feet in the skates. It's just really a cool thing when it happens.

My point: I think that if we take the proper time to train ourselves, to learn that technique of feet and hands, we reach a point where it's best to let go of our conscious control and let our subconscious and our gut and our emotions take control.

More examples

A concert pianist playing Claire de Lune has no logical control of the timing between those opening chords, the changes of tempo throughout. A computer could be set up to tap it out, but it is the pianist's ability to allow their emotion to dictate the timing, and trust their technique to carry through, that makes the music.

I did a dance concert a few weeks ago. It was the first time I really let go of micro-managing dance. I didn't compulsively review every phrase and entrance and exit in a state of angst that I'd screw up. My body just knew what to do. It was much more enjoyable and, I think, expressive performance than I've ever had before.

Yes, that's all the arts,
I think it's more about "muscle memory"
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but I think this applies to science as well. With the significant caveat that time must be taken to inform the gut, One's "instincts" can lead to brilliant insights. Question for students: how long must I spend on a treadmill to work off a bag of M&Ms? They've handed in, for a grade, anything from microsecs to millenia. They never take a minute to ask their gut if that makes sense.

My point reworded: A detective has years of experience buried in their subconscious. That thing is powerful. It's the largest part of our brains, I think. When they have a "gut" feeling that the evidence isn't telling the whole story, they should at very least consider the option.

Back to the OP. I think the problem is not so much that people trust to their guts and emotions too much, it's that they're too lazy to educate their guts first, or to assess things when the gut isn't leading them good places.

Oh, one more thing. I think that listening to the gut is a way to avoid all that programming that goes on. My example: if someone asked me when I was 22 what I wanted to do with my life, there was always a first answer that flitted by before I could even consciously consider it. Because that just couldn't have worked (my programming said.) And now I regret that I did not allow myself to consider it.

So my version of "listening to my gut" is trying to find that first answer that comes out of my brain before all my fears and logic and programing smother it.

OK, I'm still Spock-like with all the analysis. But it's a lot more interesting these days than it used to be.
So, going all Spock-like for a bit myself, it's easier for me to see about training muscle memory, but I find it hard to see how one trains one's gut. There are so many parts, and so many possible lessons, both useful and dysfunctional.

For example, just feeding raw experience into the gut may just reinforce initial prejudices and stereotypes. Feeling unlovable, one may act in unlovable ways, and reinforce the same feeling.

So, maybe there are several kinds of training that would be helpful: How to handle strong emotions, as MAGONS described. Living in a different society, class, and language for perspective. Learning how to learn, feeling comfortable with feeling untutored and clumsy. Learning a skill or craft. I don't know how to train a gut, but what do you think of these ideas?

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:29 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Likewise, many people find CBT - Cognitive Behavioural Therapy useful, and I don't see it as being without value. Just not right for me at a particular stage in my life. I have seen that it might be useful for some people - those who tend to catastrophise, and/or get hysterical over minor issues.
Yes again. For my father, learning to control his emotions was a godsend to him. (To set it straight - he was never violent with me. He internalized his rage and damaged himself. He absolutely had to learn to let all that go.)

It really is about balance between brain and gut. We all start out on one side or another. As a scientist who wishes she was a dancer, it's a fight for me to let my honest emotions go at the moment I feel them. Someone ruled by emotion has a very different challenge. (I'm watching Black Swan right now. It sooo fits this thread.)

I had a dance teacher say that it is the job of the performer to be vulnerable. We must do too much/too little/whatever and allow the audience to mock or love. That was terrifying. But it's so true.

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It may actually be that you actually know your emotions very well, and you have strategies for managing emotions before they become too overwhelming, ie emotion coaching calls for dealing with lower level emotions, before the amygdala hijack sets in and you've got zip chance of managing anything.
Umm... I think it's more about I'm used to being Spock and I have found that other people are kind of freaked out when Spock goes all emotional. I have to take the risk of letting them judge me for the way I feel. (I do not tend to have the proper "socially approved" emotional reactions to many situations.)

Quote:
Being emotionally intelligent is not so much about the response, but knowing what you feel. It's the difference between saying 'I feel really irratated, so I better walk away before I blow my top' and walking around like a time bomb filled with high levels of emotion, just waiting for a trigger to set you to blow. An increasing number of our population fit into this, hence you get road rage, people taking a king hit on someone because they look at them funny et al. Or drinking/drugging away the emotional pain that they have no way of managing.
Ah, yes. This gets back to the OP. I believe that you and I are not common, and most people really are emotion bombs. It explains a lot about many political issues, but I won't expand on that now. Too many tangents to follow up.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2013 10:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Wow. Interesting.

They should be thankful I didn't read Enders Game till my last year of school, or maybe I should, cause I might have considered taking it further than I did - I already knew what real violence was thanks to the abusive asshat I never considered a father, and to *ME* once violence was exchanged whatever it was open season, no-holds-barred, as compared to the usual petty bullshit the rest of the brats considered a "fight", once you take a shot at me I consider that lethal intent and respond accordingly... which is an appropriate response cause anyone who thinks physical violence is unlikely to kill/cripple people needs be reading some EMT reports, you know ?

Dismissing that shit, as school officials tend to, is offensive and harmful as hell, and if yer gonna get in the same amount of trouble for beating them unconscious as you would merely blocking their attacks, better to storm them down and make it really clear what the goddam CONSEQUENCES are gonna be, cause they sure ain't gonna face any from the school in most cases.

I was a bit weirded out watching Higurashi (American Title: When they Cry) and coming across a scene within that went almost EXACTLY the same as that day, just seeing it caused some hard echos and left me with the twitchies for the rest of the day.



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I'm trying to remember the name of a book a long ago roommate of mine had. I didn't read it, but we discussed the idea: that a good many "insane" people are not really insane, they are only having rational responses to an insane society.


That would be Kurt Vonneguts Welcome to the Monkey House.

And yes, that's one of my core concepts, that our structures and societies are insane, and the mixed messages of ones own basic humanity versus what they're being told to do is the root of a LOT of aberrent behavior, sure - one of the reasons I consider most (but not all) ADHD diagnosis no more valid than Drapetomania or Female Hysteria, same bullshit rationale behind it, and quoted from a Feb 2000 editorial I wrote, this.

"What we seem to be doing here, is medicating our children's natural responses to an environment we have by inaction allowed to become hostile, instead of working to make that environment safe, secure and comfortable to them."

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I wish I'd had the courage to do some of this. I experienced bullies both my age and older, and I was crushed by them.

Each route comes with it's costs though - what rooks me worst is how we strip them clean of defenses, physical, mental and emotional, cause we don't want them standing up to US, and then throw them to the fucking wolves... that is one reason I am so iron-clad about self defense of all types, even to the point of offense if necessary, cause I know the dynamics of that well enough to know just how well meaning stupidity gets people hurt, on both ends of the debate.

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The new generation has these kinds of kids in it. I have hope.

Increasing with each one, and now that the Hellcamps seem to have been crushed, save for a fringe element of State or Religious ones (and we're workin on that) one more avenue of destroying these kids before they come to be is gone - it's funny really, cause thereafter we did notice a bump in prosecuted abuse cases of parents doing the *EXACT SAME THINGS* to their kids and facing charges for it, so why was simply outsourcing that kind of abuse any kind of okay, you know ?

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As for your current works: I do understand your struggles, as I have lived in that kind of Midwest. I suppose I could have chosen to stay and work at it, but that's not for me. It would have only made me and others unhappy. I am better in a blue state gathered up with all the other oddities.

Oh we got oddies a-plenty round here, hell we've had some real..erm, "winners" as residents here and there, including one about as far gone as PN seems to be, which was thankfully a lot less of a problem than it might have been as I could communicate with him, and sharing some of his concerns, that little bit of empathy, gave him a sanity-anchor which kept him from acting out in destructive ways... I hope he did ok when he moved on though.

This little podunk dead zone between Detroit and Ann Arbor is also a collective of oddballs, but one thing I do find gratifying about it is that outside of a few rightfully shunned backwater jerkasses, there's no racism here of any serious stripe and a very heaping helping of live-and-let-live, leaving well the hell enough alone - which is something even the local bad guys value in my case... I am not a cop, I don't enforce the law, I am a paid legbreaker who protects this turf and the interests of the people on it, ergo, you stay off it, leave well enough alone, I leave well enough alone - would that more people would really take THAT principle to heart.

But no, everyone and anyone seems hell bent on trying to MAKE everyone else act, live and think like THEY do... OR ELSE - and that latter part is why I don't get on with folks who mean the best, but don't realize they're pouring oil on a slope already slippery enough.

-Frem

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:25 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Just a little bit more threadjacking, then I'll quit.

Geezer, where did I say we could, or should 'ALL just ...'? Nothing happens in this society with us 'ALL just ...'' A lot of times a FEW just ..., sometimes it's the MAJORITY just ..., but we don't 'ALL just ...'.

So, please READ my post again. REALLY READ ***MY WORDS***, and stop arguing with the voices in your head. You'll find comprehension goes so much better if you do.


Where did I say you did?

I said I've seen people here say that.

Now why do you think it applies to you?

And why can't you have a discussion without insulting everyone who disagrees with you? Kind'a hard to get people to take you seriously when you do that.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 11:53 AM

MAL4PREZ


I started writing this up last night, but was falling asleep so I saved till I was free today.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MAL4, deepest apologies for not responding. I thought your post was interesting and a kick-in-the-pants reminder just how different we all are. I assumed that everyone had a problem with runaway emotion; it seems to me that we don't ALL have that problem. I thought some things were particularly interesting, and some things left me feeling very intrigued (my dd would say "nosy")
I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I don't have that runaway emotion that is supposed to happen in "regular" people. No answers. I can't just blame my upbringing. My sister lived in the same house and she's an emotion bomb.

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OK, so I am Spock-like.... Is it what I should feel?
All of those questions are useful. But I wonder how you would judge "should" from "shouldn't"


Ha! For me it has to do with what will be accepted by those surrounding me and what might be -- oh dear god -- uncomfortable to them. Or might not do me any good in the long run.

OK, I said I can't blame my family, but certainly there is an interaction of nature and nurture. I am naturally one who analyzes, and my analysis told me to keep a tight rein so things would go smooth. Other people wouldn't prefer smoothness, I guess, so they wouldn't have developed as I did.


Quote:
I think it's more about "muscle memory"
Yes indeed. That's the "technique". But the emotional expression can't happen without a subconscious connection between emotion and muscle memory. There are deep parts of the brain that control the muscles, and they can't function properly if the "thinking" is always in the way.

I do think there is a "muscle memory" of sorts in the brain. Our deepest knowledge is mapped out in our subconscious. (I like to think this is why we sleep so much: our daily experiences are being remapped from RAM conscious memory to ROM deep memory. When you wake up suddenly -- bus error! -- and remember your dream, you've seen into your subconscious.) Brilliance and insight require that we tap into those deep neural pathways, which means letting go of conscious control from time to time.

And you should know I am not a neural scientist and I actually know nothing about the brain except that I have one and this seems to be how mine works.

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So, going all Spock-like for a bit myself, it's easier for me to see about training muscle memory, but I find it hard to see how one trains one's gut.
With experience, you get a feeling for what is right and what isn't. Remember when the Mars lander crashed in the 90s because someone forgot to check units?

Hey - people working on that have to have developed an intuition about the landing parameters, and you get an idea of the values you expect in m/s versus ft/s. The info was in those brains, but I'm guessing they trusted to the output of their code without listening to their instincts.

Just like my students and the M&M problem. 1000s of years to burn off a bag of M&Ms? Really? They just don't take a minute to *think*.


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There are so many parts, and so many possible lessons, both useful and dysfunctional.
Yes, that is true. That is where one must never disconnect the brain and the heart from the gut. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, right? There must be some way of assessing the gut and being open to adjusting it.

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For example, just feeding raw experience into the gut may reinforce initial prejudices and stereotypes. Feeling unlovable, one may act in unlovable ways
Absolutely. You need trusted people to tell you that it is or is not working. You need to be open to the criticism and honest self-assessment.

This is challenging. I hate watching myself dance on video. *shudder*


Quote:
So, maybe there are several kinds of training that would be helpful: How to handle strong emotions, as MAGONS described. Living in a different society, class, and language for perspective. Learning how to learn, feeling comfortable with feeling untutored and clumsy. Learning a skill or craft. I don't know how to train a gut, but what do you think of these ideas?
I think they're perfect. The gut needs to be fearless and accept judgement. Go somewhere unfamiliar where you have no expectation of success. (The new skill or craft.) Try it without making it a judgement of everything that you are. Be comfortable with failure, or at least less than success, and find a way to value yourself anyway.

Funny though, I find that I am coming at this from my POV. I'm not sure how this would help control emotions. You'll laugh, but I really have no idea what it's like to be run by emotions. I've been overwhelmed a few times, but it's serious stuff like also almost getting in a car accident or on 9-11 or during the Boston manhunt, you know? I'd kind of like to know what it's like to have emotional reactions in the moment, rather than after much consideration.

I know, careful what I ask for, right? LOL!

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:12 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Our deepest knowledge is mapped out in our subconscious.


...This is where I begin to disagree, unfortunately. I can buy everything about emotional intelligence versus logical intelligence, to a degree, and will even admit it's best to not rely too much on one or the other.

But the unconscious is so poorly understood despite the insistence of psychology that it exists and all the research they do, that I have my doubts that it DOES.

What possible evolutionary advantage is there to have some sort of secret hidden knowledge that we can't tap into as necessary? What would be the purpose of such a division of functions?

What people call the unconscious I suspect is really just the animalistic parts of the limbic system, meaning that this "unconscious" mind is in fact always working and is also fully integrated with our conscious working minds. It's just... Not a very SMART system, not compared to the higher brain functions like memory and cognitive processing. But it can be quiet, passive, automatic, or loud, depending on the circumstances. Reflexes can be trained, and the muscles do a surprising bit more "thinking" than we have realized in the past. But this isn't hidden away from our thinking anymore than fear and anger are hidden.

You'd think that with our neurological scans and actual empirical data, we could move past the flawed and imperfect ideas of Freud, instead of assuming that he is right that this something he said is there and exists when he had no instruments to FIND it and was probably talkin' out his ass (as per usual).

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 1:54 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Mal said 'subconcious' which I believe to be different to 'unconcious'. I think she meant it simply to mean the collection of everything we have seen and learned and experienced, but may not be at the forefront of ones mind. And not so much of the Freudian 'unconcious' which underpins all that we do.

I don't know what you call it, or really how it works within the brain, but I sometimes think of it as the enormous compactus, everything filed away. Sometimes memories are easily accessable, with a light flick of the finger and sometimes the drawer is wedged shut, or sometimes you've forgotten that the drawer exists. In REM sleep, drawers are opened randomly and because we are complusive meaning makers, we create stories from the open contents. I can't tell you how, or back anything up with anything remotely scientific (perhaps I don't care to look too hard) but I have found both healing and solutions in dreams.

I like the concept that we have different kinds of memory, including muscle and emotional memory. That's why some alzheimer sufferers may not be able to recognise their closest loved ones, but can play complex pieces on the piano.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:50 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
They should be thankful I didn't read Enders Game till my last year of school,

OK, are you as hyped about the movie as I am? I wasn't at first, but caught the preview in the theater last weekend and I gotta say - this might be entertaining. I need to read the book again before I see it though. It's been a while.

Very telling clip. That's what bullying all about, right? To terrorize a person but make it "fun" in order to make them completely helpless. As soon as the terrorized strikes back, the bully sez "Oh jeez, where's your sense of humor?" I can't say I generally condone beating someone with a chair, but I certainly understand wanting to. I find I'm gotten better at cutting with words when I need to, and that can be enough.

Of course, I don't live in a world where any more than words is needed. I do hope it stays that way.


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That would be Kurt Vonneguts Welcome to the Monkey House.
Yep. I should read it. I like him, except a newer one that was just depressing.

Society is certainly insane. Just look at Steubenville. Morons in that town are still defending the coach, who still has his job. How is any young woman with self-respect supposed to grow up "sane" in a place like that? Or young man, for that matter.

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.
Oh we got oddies a-plenty round here, hell we've had some real..erm, "winners" as residents here and there,


Ueah, I guess I mean oddities in less of a strong way. I'm actually pretty functional and sane, but if I was living in the midwestern suburb where I grew up I'd be a complete freak, and very unhappy. In places like NYC there are lots of others who want nothing to do with the suburban house, kids in little league, the job ladder, etc etc. And we're OK.

I do love that you're in an area without racism. I can't claim that of where I am, though here it's more of a class-ism.


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But no, everyone and anyone seems hell bent on trying to MAKE everyone else act, live and think like THEY do... OR ELSE - and that latter part is why I don't get on with folks who mean the best, but don't realize they're pouring oil on a slope already slippery enough.
Replying to this would be a long off topic hijack, so all I'm gonna say is Amen Brother!


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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 3:05 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Our deepest knowledge is mapped out in our subconscious.


...This is where I begin to disagree, unfortunately. I can buy everything about emotional intelligence versus logical intelligence, to a degree, and will even admit it's best to not rely too much on one or the other.

But the unconscious is so poorly understood despite the insistence of psychology that it exists and all the research they do, that I have my doubts that it DOES.


I tried to explain what I mean by "subconscious" in my long long post up above, and I'll try not to get repetitive, but please be aware that I may mean something different than the officially accepted medical/psychological term. But I do need to clarify, because I think you are misunderstanding.

There are two general ways I approach the mental control of my life. Say I want to look behind me as a I walk:

Conscious control: Step with my left foot forward, step with right foot turned in a little, step my left foot backwards so I am now facing the other way, and the next step is right foot bakcwards.

Subconscious control: I turn my head to look back and my feet do whatever they need to do to make that work.

Because there are trained patterns in the "subconscious" parts of my brain, I can use approach 2 without falling over. I am completely unaware of what my feet do, but it happens anyway.

It is not secret, hidden knowledge. But using option 2 is going to be a much smoother, more graceful, and more effortless way of carrying out the task. I don't need to control my feet. I can choose to, and if I'm learning complex new steps I definitely need to, but I can also trust the out-of-conscious control parts of my brain to do this for me.

It is exactly the same with a concert pianist. When they are first learning that have to consciously map out each chord. After a while, they go through the phrase without telling each finger where to go. I have experienced this playing cello, and skating, and even dancing.

If you haven't experienced this, I don't think anything I say is going to explain it to you. I very much recommend that you think about taking up a hobby where you might get to this kind of state of functioning. It takes work, but it's extremely fulfilling.


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What possible evolutionary advantage is there to have some sort of secret hidden knowledge that we can't tap into as necessary? What would be the purpose of such a division of functions?
Because the conscious brain can't do everything. What if you had to remind yourself to breathe or you'd die? How much could you do if you were constantly regulating your own heartbeat?

Regarding the rest of your post, I didn't say it was hidden, or certainly that was not my intention. But I hold that the subconscious is capable of things that the conscious is not. ie: listen to Rachmonioff's Piano Concerto #2 while looking at the sheet music and tell me that the conscious mind could *ever* do that.

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You'd think that with our neurological scans and actual empirical data, we could move past the flawed and imperfect ideas of Freud, instead of assuming that he is right that this something he said is there and exists when he had no instruments to FIND it and was probably talkin' out his ass (as per usual).
Oh dear. You are assigning all kinds of stuff to me that I never said or even suggested. I plainly stated that my ideas are based on my experiences. Please reply to that rather than getting upset over what I never said.


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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 3:32 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Because the conscious brain can't do everything. What if you had to remind yourself to breathe or you'd die? How much could you do if you were constantly regulating your own heartbeat?


Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.

But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.

It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.

And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 4:26 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Because the conscious brain can't do everything. What if you had to remind yourself to breathe or you'd die? How much could you do if you were constantly regulating your own heartbeat?


Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.

But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.

It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.

And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.


And you think you keep breathing how?

And you think you can walk without thinking about it how?

And you think a pianist can play all those notes how?

Did you ever walk away from a hard problem, go do something else, and then suddenly have an insight as to how to solve it? I have. Lots of times. That's all I'm saying.

See, the rudeness is not about tone, it's about extending what I'm saying to all kinds of stuff I'm not. It's just not very polite of you.

It does, however, give me another example that I don't think you'll like. I bet someone tried to shovel some Freudian shit at you at some point, which understandably makes you sensitive to a discussion that appears to you to be similar. Because of what's stored in your brain, you can only see that funky Freudian stuff, no matter that it is not what I've said. Your subconscious bias is not allowing you to grok what I'm saying purely for what it is. Your programming filters my words.

It has happened between us more than once. It's all right. I get it. And I agree - no point in us continuing. Especially since you keep skipping right past all the examples I'm giving you as if they were not given.

Your filter is strong, Obiwan, too strong for us mere mortals to pierce.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 4:34 PM

BYTEMITE


...

-_-

No. No one tried to shovel freudian shit at me. I am not REPRESSING some traumatic experience from my past behind a filter.

This is why I don't like these ideas. Perhaps YOU have one of these unconscious/subconscious DEALIES, I wouldn't know. I do NOT. I am a shallow, dull, frivolous person who cares about only unimportant things and all my emotions bubble on the surface. I lack any kind of depth like you describe. I LACK FILTERS.

In short I understand exactly what you are talking about, and I DISAGREE. I won't say anything else.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 4:42 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
...

-_-

No. No one tried to shovel freudian shit at me.

This is why I don't like these ideas. Perhaps YOU have one of these unconscious/subconscious DEALIES, I wouldn't know. I do NOT. I am a shallow, dull, frivolous person who cares about only unimportant things and all my emotions bubble on the surface. I lack any kind of depth like you describe.

I won't say anything else.


Hunh. Then why can't you read my posts for what they say? You're the one who brought up Freud. I never went anywhere close to there.

You do have a filter. I can't pretend to know why, but it's certainly there.

ETA: please note that sig and I are very different thinkers/emoters. but we discuss it. On the other hand, with you, my description of the way my brain works is some kind of affront. I don't mean my last post, which yes I did try to apply my way of thinking to you, but your reaction to my previous was by your admission rather rude. You pretty much called everything I said bullshit, without addressing any actual point that I made.

So why this aggression? Where does it come from? You should be able to explain, since your brain acts completely in the a conscious way. So what exactly did I say in my previous posts about the way *my* brain works that was personally insulting to you?

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:07 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.

But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.

It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.

And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.


yes, we have had similar conversations before, I remember. But perhaps its more the language that you object to rather than the ideas.

I wonder if you would agree with any of the following:

Not all memories are easily accessable

We have ways of storing oads more information than we actually ackowledge

Dreams can be a way of processing experiences and emotions

Our brains function in highly complex ways and scientists are still trying to work out how they do what they do

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:07 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


DOuble post. Don't know why that happens

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:21 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.

But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.

It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.

And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.


yes, we have had similar conversations before, I remember. But perhaps its more the language that you object to rather than the ideas.

I wonder if you would agree with any of the following:

Not all memories are easily accessable

We have ways of storing oads more information than we actually ackowledge

Dreams can be a way of processing experiences and emotions

Our brains function in highly complex ways and scientists are still trying to work out how they do what they do


I only agree with the last one.

You'd have to explain criteria or ways in which you can measure the other stuff for me to concede the science here.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:30 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
So what exactly did I say in my previous posts about the way *my* brain works that was personally insulting to you?


If I said, it would insult YOU. A self-defeating proposition.

If you truly want to know, the reason I am so contemptuous is because I think none of this is scientific. There are no measurements that can be made about dreams or unconscious knowledge.

I also found your insinuation that "repressed memories" and "filters" are responsible for my disagreement with you incredibly condescending.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:44 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.

But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.

It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.

And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.


yes, we have had similar conversations before, I remember. But perhaps its more the language that you object to rather than the ideas.

I wonder if you would agree with any of the following:

Not all memories are easily accessable

We have ways of storing oads more information than we actually ackowledge

Dreams can be a way of processing experiences and emotions

Our brains function in highly complex ways and scientists are still trying to work out how they do what they do


I only agree with the last one.

You'd have to explain criteria or ways in which you can measure the other stuff for me to concede the science here.


I think you'd be hard pushed to find any evidence for what you are claiming, and more evidence for what I am. I have never read anywhere any scientist, neuro or otherwise who make the claims you do. I suspect you are basing what you say on how you interpret what is happening for you, and I aint got no arguments for that.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:50 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


What Does Sleep Do For Us?

Although scientists are still trying to learn exactly why people need sleep, animal studies show that sleep is necessary for survival. For example, while rats normally live for two to three years, those deprived of REM sleep survive only about 5 weeks on average, and rats deprived of all sleep stages live only about 3 weeks. Sleep-deprived rats also develop abnormally low body temperatures and sores on their tail and paws. The sores may develop because the rats' immune systems become impaired. Some studies suggest that sleep deprivation affects the immune system in detrimental ways.

Sleep appears necessary for our nervous systems to work properly. Too little sleep leaves us drowsy and unable to concentrate the next day. It also leads to impaired memory and physical performance and reduced ability to carry out math calculations. If sleep deprivation continues, hallucinations and mood swings may develop. Some experts believe sleep gives neurons used while we are awake a chance to shut down and repair themselves. Without sleep, neurons may become so depleted in energy or so polluted with byproducts of normal cellular activities that they begin to malfunction. Sleep also may give the brain a chance to exercise important neuronal connections that might otherwise deteriorate from lack of activity.

Deep sleep coincides with the release of growth hormone in children and young adults. Many of the body's cells also show increased production and reduced breakdown of proteins during deep sleep. Since proteins are the building blocks needed for cell growth and for repair of damage from factors like stress and ultraviolet rays, deep sleep may truly be "beauty sleep." Activity in parts of the brain that control emotions, decision-making processes, and social interactions is drastically reduced during deep sleep, suggesting that this type of sleep may help people maintain optimal emotional and social functioning while they are awake. A study in rats also showed that certain nerve-signaling patterns which the rats generated during the day were repeated during deep sleep. This pattern repetition may help encode memories and improve learning.

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Dreaming and REM Sleep

We typically spend more than 2 hours each night dreaming. Scientists do not know much about how or why we dream. Sigmund Freud, who greatly influenced the field of psychology, believed dreaming was a "safety valve" for unconscious desires. Only after 1953, when researchers first described REM in sleeping infants, did scientists begin to carefully study sleep and dreaming. They soon realized that the strange, illogical experiences we call dreams almost always occur during REM sleep. While most mammals and birds show signs of REM sleep, reptiles and other cold-blooded animals do not.

REM sleep begins with signals from an area at the base of the brain called the pons (see figure 2 ). These signals travel to a brain region called the thalamus, which relays them to the cerebral cortex – the outer layer of the brain that is responsible for learning, thinking, and organizing information. The pons also sends signals that shut off neurons in the spinal cord, causing temporary paralysis of the limb muscles. If something interferes with this paralysis, people will begin to physically "act out" their dreams – a rare, dangerous problem called REM sleep behavior disorder. A person dreaming about a ball game, for example, may run headlong into furniture or blindly strike someone sleeping nearby while trying to catch a ball in the dream.

REM sleep stimulates the brain regions used in learning. This may be important for normal brain development during infancy, which would explain why infants spend much more time in REM sleep than adults (see Sleep: A Dynamic Activity ). Like deep sleep, REM sleep is associated with increased production of proteins. One study found that REM sleep affects learning of certain mental skills. People taught a skill and then deprived of non-REM sleep could recall what they had learned after sleeping, while people deprived of REM sleep could not.

Some scientists believe dreams are the cortex's attempt to find meaning in the random signals that it receives during REM sleep. The cortex is the part of the brain that interprets and organizes information from the environment during consciousness. It may be that, given random signals from the pons during REM sleep, the cortex tries to interpret these signals as well, creating a "story" out of fragmented brain activity.


http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/brain_basics/understanding_sleep.ht
m#for_us




Even among scientists who disagree about the dream process, no one thinks that dreams have only one purpose. Since dreams can occur at different times during the sleep cycle, they have different functions. Let's look at a few that have been proposed.

Some researchers do believe that dreams help the brain organize and manage the tremendous amount of day-to-day input humans face. Evidence of this in found in research on infant sleep. Most dreams occur during REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, which is normally characterized by brain activity very similar to waking and significant body paralysis (still allowing for twitches and eye activity). This occurs during roughly 20 percent of adults' sleep sessions, but infants are in REM sleep during half of their slumber hours. Infants need to categorize and understand an entirely new world, but they spend a good deal of their time asleep. In order to be efficient, it's likely that their active brains are multitasking, using sleep to help deepen the neuron pathways for new information. Studies with infant and adult rats indicate they share the same type of neuron firing during sleep. Researchers concluded that if the purposes of sleep were different for infants and adults, then their brain activity would not be comparable [source: Karlsson, et al]. Therefore, it's a safe bet that a good deal of dream time is spent organizing data we've absorbed.

What else could be happening? Some therapists think that a good deal of a person's dreaming is the unconscious knocking on the door, trying to get out and express itself. This began with Freud, who believed the unconscious focused on aggression and sex. Modern therapists adopt a wider view of the unconscious, believing it contains information about many topics our brain hasn't (or won't) process.

There are brain researchers who believe that many of our dreams are simply random neuronal firing. Since a dreaming brain is obviously very active but not technically conscious, the brain is essentially producing dreams to keep itself busy. This could account for the seemingly disjointed and weird aspects of some dreams.

Much information has been collected about dream states using technology such as PET, EEG, EOG and EMG, as well as observations of sleepers and self-reports of dreams. The brain, however, is not yet wide open for exploration and still holds many secrets, including the details of dreaming.

More answers from Susan Sherwood »
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Science Channel

If we use eight hours of sleep as a benchmark, we spend about one-third of our lives asleep. That's a lot of time spent on the other side of wakefulness. (Fortunately, for most of us, it's at least an enjoyable respite!) We spend a lot of that time dreaming, too. But what is the brain trying to accomplish by dreaming? Is it just a meaningless, slumber-time collection of incomprehensible movie sequences (some researchers think dreams don't really serve any function at all, arguing that they are just a pointless byproduct of the brain firing while we slumber)? Or does our dreaming have a purpose? We know that the rear portion of our brain is very active during R.E.M. sleep, which is when most dreaming occurs, so is there a point to it?

What if our dreams are the brain's way of cleaning house? One theory posits that dreams are the result of the brain sorting through everything it clings to while it and we are awake. The idea is that everything from minor sensory details to far more complex issues is categorized and prioritized for memory storage, with the help of dreams, as if dreams are the brain's vivid "Post-It" notes, reminding our gray matter to sweep up after the day's work. This theory is backed up by the fact that we dream more when we're actively learning something new, like a foreign language.

Whatever the case may be, whether or not we dream in order to organize sensory input, one thing is for sure: We need our sleep. Being deprived of sleep can have serious consequences, especially if the lack of good "Zs" is chronic. When we're not sleeping well, our alertness tapers off, we can't think clearly enough and our memory function is impaired. Furthermore, quality of life goes out the window for a "sleepless" person, who also sees in his or her life an increased risk of injury either on the job or out in the world [source: WebMD]. There are probably as many theories for why we dream as there are dreamers themselves. Instead of worrying why we dream and what the nightly slide show means, perhaps it's best if we just focus on getting a good night's sleep.

http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/dreaming-brains-way-of-organiz
ing


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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"But the unconscious is so poorly understood despite the insistence of psychology that it exists and all the research they do, that I have my doubts that it DOES."

There all many parallel connections in the brain that are now just being uncovered that could be called the unconscious. For example: what happens when you've caught a glimpse of something that would have you terrified. Light goes into the eye, hits the retina, goes to the back of the brain where its salient properties are sifted out layer by layer. On one pathway the brain re-assembles the image and it goes to the conscious part of the brain where it's connected up with memories and abstract thinking, and we get that moment of recognition - oh, someone left a dirty piece of rope on the ground. But the lower level visual processing directly flashes very select salient features to the amygdala even before that - long! narrow! curvy! on the ground! - where it's connected up with memories of events that generated a lot of fear in the past - SNAKE!!! Adrenaline surges even before we've had the chance to understand what we're seeing.

My point is that's it's not just physical movement that could be considered the unconscious. Even our perceptions fall into that category.

If you have the time you might be interested in this: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/06/30/080630fa_fact_gawande It's about a woman who had such a demanding, persistent itch that she scratched through her skull into her brain. She did this despite the fact that the sensory nerves in the area had been killed. So where did the itch come from? The author makes a pretty good case that the vast majority of our perception is software, not hardware. That the software and hardware both operate underneath the realm of the conscious (where there is no "I" involved) puts them in the category of the unconscious, IMO.


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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:07 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
If you truly want to know, the reason I am so contemptuous is because I think none of this is scientific. There are no measurements that can be made about dreams or unconscious knowledge.
I provided my own evidence for my ideas. You have yet to address any of those, you only rail against other ideologies/theories that have nothing to do with my posts.

Why?

Quote:
I also found your insinuation that "repressed memories" and "filters" are responsible for my disagreement with you incredibly condescending.


I said nothing about repressed memories. Why do you bring that up? It was never mentioned before you brought it up.

As for filters, you continue to post replies that are not replies to my posts. That is a filter. I did not mention Freud (because I think he's a hack) and yet your replies center on him. This is a filter.

Why?

You don't need to explain to me. I have no right to know.

But I certainly will not accept the derision you're throwing at me. Your own filter created this drama, not anything I said, especially since I said what I did about my own brain. I can post freely about how my own thoughts work, and if you get your back up about that, it's all happening on your side.

Which is to say: I still want nothing but the best for you, Byte. My interest in this interaction with you, as seems to happen a lot, lies in trying to find out why you made my post into an attack on you.

I want you to not go through this.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:30 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
You have yet to address any of those, you only rail against other ideologies/theories that have nothing to do with my posts.


They have everything to do with them. Everything I've heard you say has confirmed what I thought you're talking about.

Quote:
I said nothing about repressed memories. Why do you bring that up? It was never mentioned before you brought it up.


Not directly. But what else would these "filters" you keep talking about be? You basically said exactly this to me, that I was drawing on previous experiences, having a bad reaction to someone pulling out freud psychoanalysis on me. Oh POOR ME. Except no.

And Magons, there's a lot more criticism against the idea of the unconscious than you're realizing. Psychologists still like it though so they do experiments about it. But I find a lot of their experiments don't really met the standards of vigour.

Also, the linked discovery article has exactly the kind of wishy washy poorly supported speculation about dreams that I can't stand.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:34 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
It's about a woman who had such a demanding, persistent itch that she scratched through her skull into her brain.

OK, that guarantees I won't read the article.

Can I share a story that is only very tangentially related? I've been dying to tell anyone about this.

Two nights ago I was sitting on my sofa doing my usual video watching/internet surfing when it occurred to me that I'd been hearing this annoying sound. I could hear it over the internet music and the window air conditioner, but barely. It prob took hours to get to me. But eventually I had to acknowledge that this sound was... Bothering. Me.

It came from the kitchen. Kind of crugggg. cruggg. cruggg. Maybe the seal on the freezer was leaking? No. Maybe some bug was doing shit in the walls? I brought in a chair and put my ears in many locations.

crugggg. cruggg. cruggg.

Freaked me out. It was coming from the top of my fridge. I store big bowls there, and some little plastic containers, and also many half bulbs of garlic, since I buy a new one every time I need it and forget to throw the old ones out.

crugggg. cruggg. cruggg.

I put on one of those cleaning rubber gloves and got a plastic bag, because something on top of the fridge ain't right and I don't want it touching me. One by one I move things off. Still that sound goes on.

crugggg. cruggg. cruggg.

I reach a point when one bulb of garlic is left. I move an ear around it. Oh yeah, the sound is there. I start thinking the some creature has planted its young in there, and a million hatchlings are eating their way out right now. Of course, it's going to be spiders. I fucking hate spiders. Like really. (And this is what made me think of this: kiki's post reminded me of how my fear of spiders surpasses my rational brain whenever a spider interaction is possible. The signal is reacted by my spine before it reaches my brain, and yes, there is scientific rational for this. ) I pictured crowds of baby horror spiders pouring from that garlic.

crugggg. cruggg. cruggg.

I couldn't deal with the plastic bag and its imperfect seal, so I grabbed a little plastic cup and clamped it over the garlic bulb. Immediately, twisted black legs reached out...

It was an ant. A fucking ant. One of those really big scary black ants, but it had been hanging out in my garlic crunching away all evening. LOUD crunching.

If there's a moral to the story, it's this: in the early summer when the rains move in, put your damned garlic in the fridge.


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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:38 PM

BYTEMITE


Happy ant!

I like bugs and spiders. :) They're cute. I give the bees drinks at the community garden, they like to suck the water out of the black landscape fabric when it's 90+ degrees out.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:40 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Mal, are you the Bionic Woman?

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:48 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
You have yet to address any of those, you only rail against other ideologies/theories that have nothing to do with my posts.


They have everything to do with them. Everything I've heard you say has confirmed what I thought you're talking about.

Please note the words you use: "I've heard..."

You do not hear what I'm saying. You hear what comes through your filter. Did you grok what I said about concert pianists? Did you try to understand what I meant by that (given that none of us, as far as I know, are concert pianists)?


Quote:
Quote:
I said nothing about repressed memories. Why do you bring that up? It was never mentioned before you brought it up.


Not directly. But what else would these "filters" you keep talking about be? You basically said exactly this to me, that I was drawing on previous experiences, having a bad reaction to someone pulling out freud psychoanalysis on me. Oh POOR ME. Except no.


"Not directly," you say. Think about that. The "direct" connection is something you made. My posts about filters came after YOU brought up Freud. And your mention of repressed memories came after that, at no prompting from me.

So the connection could very possible be something on your end, yes? Since it all initiated with you?

I do wonder why you took it there. Why, I ask again, was your first response to me so defensive? Could you point out the exact phrases that made you turn to Freud?

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:48 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I mentioned freud, btw - to distinguish between the ideas of 'unconcious' to which Byte objects , and 'subconscious' to which Mal referred.

In doing so, I have opened a deep fissure of discontent.

(That last line is best read with a german accent)

edit - Actually looking back, it was Byte....


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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 7:10 PM

BYTEMITE


I play the piano. Since I was seven. It's not "unconscious." It seems effortless, it seems like I'm not thinking about it. But I am. It's trained responses and reading ahead, but all of it takes place within the standard speed of response the brain can manage, of about 0.3 seconds.

Also my knees shake like a leaf when I play because it's not really that fun. :/ And I have terrible counting timing.

however now imagining someone at the keyboard while asleep. It is an entertaining performance after all.

but this idea that my "unconscious" somehow informs how I play the piano when it doesn't exist, is like saying that when I predict something that's going to happen and everyone looks at me weird when it happens, that somehow I was drawing from "unconscious" knowledge like ESP and psychic ability. No. HELL No. It's all logic and conscious thought.

I am aware of EVERYTHING. It's actually incredibly annoying. I feel every stutter in my heart, to the point where I've had myself checked out for a-fib and I probably do have some sort of psychosomatic texidor's twinge.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 7:11 PM

BYTEMITE


Mal4Prez brought it up, she just didn't use the terminology to describe what she was accusing me of.

But that's what it is. That's what it is exactly. It's Freud.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 10:08 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Byte, seriously, stop hijacking threads so that its all about you. It's tiresome. This thread is a discussion around emotions and rational thought and some sharing of ideas around what it all might mean. while I am interested in what you have to say, even though I disagree with your views, I dont want to enter into another conversation about how your perceive yourself to be shallow, bad, evil, or any negative attribute that you insist on giving yourself. Nor another conversation about how someone has offended you.

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Thursday, July 4, 2013 12:06 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Quote:
OK, are you as hyped about the movie as I am? I wasn't at first, but caught the preview in the theater last weekend and I gotta say - this might be entertaining. I need to read the book again before I see it though. It's been a while.

Not really - Lionsgate has a rep for doing a good job on a budget and staying true to the source material, it's just that I consider the source material kind of apalling.

There is also the minor nitpick of this book being so radically different from EVERY SINGLE THING CARD EVER WROTE, so much so, given all his other work tends to certain themes and styles, that I have since reading the rest of the trilogy firmly believed he did not write it, when a guy writes fifty and more books which all read very much the same, and has one that is completely radically different than them in every possible way, one has to wonder - it'd be like Stephen King suddenly writing in the terse, brutal style of Andrew Vachss, it's just *not* credible to be the same authors work.

Quote:
Very telling clip. That's what bullying all about, right? To terrorize a person but make it "fun" in order to make them completely helpless. As soon as the terrorized strikes back, the bully sez "Oh jeez, where's your sense of humor?" I can't say I generally condone beating someone with a chair, but I certainly understand wanting to. I find I'm gotten better at cutting with words when I need to, and that can be enough.

Well, while I don't believe in dehumanizing people, I do believe it *IS* possible for a person to surrender their own humanity, whether it be to an ideological agenda or their own prejudices and hatreds, and once they cross that line, I feel no obligation to consider them human, or people - I feel no more emotion inflicting violence upon them than I would about pulling a weed out of a garden, which is also part and parcel of my theological beliefs which suggest that violence should always be dispassionate... something admittedly I don't always live up to.
It's like the old not-funny "joke" about asking a combat sniper what he feels when he shoots people, and he says "recoil" - the burning exception were hellcamp stooges, former victims turned abusers for their own chance at holding the whip... yes I KNOW they're victims in a way too, but the choice they made was something I had utterly no sympathy for and while I usually keep a lock on it I do have a nasty sadistic streak, I just won't cut it loose in front of anyone innocent.

Quote:
Society is certainly insane. Just look at Steubenville. Morons in that town are still defending the coach, who still has his job. How is any young woman with self-respect supposed to grow up "sane" in a place like that? Or young man, for that matter.

I highly, highly reccommend the book AFTERSHOCK, if you can gut through reading it, the book itself is kind of a rabbithole of that same type.

http://www.amazon.com/Aftershock-A-Thriller-Andrew-Vachss/dp/030790774
0

What bothers me about it, this book, Stubenville, the Hellcamps... is that yes, once out in the open there are better ways, but sometimes, hell, too many times, NOTHING LESS THAN BRUTAL VIOLENCE WILL GET IT THERE... this is something Justin has a tendancy to forget, is that appalling that it was, without that factor, the situation would never, ever, ever have come to place where gentler means could even be applied, and if you let this shit slip BACK under the rock by being unwilling to dive into the gutter, wrap an angry fist around its neck and haul it back out, then the cycle will begin all over again and you have accomplished nothing.

I see this on a macro scale with our abusive intel agencies, every time they look contrite and promise never to do it again, they're ALREADY doing it again even before they leave the fucking room, and until some real awfulness gets inflicted addressing the matter is futile - I earnestly feel that swinging Clapper from a rope would be the only hope of doing an ounce of good, and even that would not be enough - alternatively one could just dump the whole shebang to the public.

That statement is not without precedence, cause right now it's become clear that while it kept the matter out of the public eye, the Church Committee hearings accomplished NOTHING except making them hide it better - whereas the exposure of COINTELPRO, which was in fact done by downright burglarly, theft and malice, broke the ability of the FBI to pull that crap for decades.
So, essentially the only check we have against our so-called protectors at this time, is awfulness so extreme most people couldn't stomach it, and thus, I dunno what to tell folk.

Anyhows, comes a time when nothing less awful will serve, and at those times you don't need a Hero, you need a VILLAIN - Stubenville would have been another backpage side note without the intervention of Anonymous, and the poor bastard who got it done is probably going to face worse consequences than the real bad guys....

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/kyanonymous-fbi-steubenvil
le-raid-anonymous

If you ever really wanted to understand the mindset, find any child who has just been punished for something they didn't do on the basis of personal/political/social convenience they don't even comprehend and certainly don't agree with - look into those tiny eyes and see that burning rage.
Most never learn to control it, it consumes them, causes them to self-destruct or act out on a personal level at pointblank range and run afoul of our societies control mechanisms... and of those few who do, nightmares are created.

Case in point, Carl Panzram - he KNEW what he was, he KNEW how he came to be, and he KNEW who to blame for it.
Quote:
"I wish the entire human race had one neck, and I had my hands around it!"

How is this any different from the average school shooter ? it ain't, that's the POINT, it is just a matter of scale.

My motivation is a shade different, rather than revenge upon individuals, my vengence is upon the social and other conditions which made me what I am, in hopes of no one else ever having to suffer it, and over time has broadened to crushing the mechanisms which create suffering for pleasure, profit or political gain, and those who build and feed such systems.
I've not seen any treatment in fiction of this specific motivation save once, Milliardo Peacecraft from the series Gundam Wing initially seeks revenge against those who crushed his homeland and destroyed his family - only after getting it does he realize how unsatisfying that is, and how he's become too much like them, and thus takes up the same cause.

Consider this well - fighting against society and for its destruction is considered an "Evil" act, without regard to the nature of that society, a women seeking to topple the theological rule of a tribal leader in afghanistan would be seen as "Evil" for it, not just for attacking the established order, but also because of the necessary fallout and collateral damage which occurs when a society is changed... but never in there is the NATURE of the society being attacked considered.

So to is fighting for human freedoms which most of the established system does not respect or desire, inspiring chaos and thus being "Chaotic", lack of respect for a rule of law even when that law is flawed or immoral, is considered this.

Ergo, by proper designation my "alignment" so to speak, would be Chaotic Evil.


That said, do I seem a monster to you ?
Which is all what needs be said about our social and legal structures, you ask me.

Quote:
Replying to this would be a long off topic hijack, so all I'm gonna say is Amen Brother!

Indeed.

-Frem

PS.
Quote:
If there's a moral to the story, it's this: in the early summer when the rains move in, put your damned garlic in the fridge.

*reduced to hysterical giggles*

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Thursday, July 4, 2013 5:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Byte, seriously, stop hijacking threads so that its all about you. It's tiresome. This thread is a discussion around emotions and rational thought and some sharing of ideas around what it all might mean. while I am interested in what you have to say, even though I disagree with your views, I dont want to enter into another conversation about how your perceive yourself to be shallow, bad, evil, or any negative attribute that you insist on giving yourself. Nor another conversation about how someone has offended you.


...That was a cheap shot.

Show me were I've gotten away from the original topic of this thread. It has all been about my disagreement with your opinions on whether the unconscious exists. One time - ONE TIME I said that I must be shallow because I lack the experiences you all describe, but that was again part of my ARGUMENT here.

And then Mal4Prez asked me to address her specific point about concert pianists, and I told her that I've played the piano for 21 years. Oh yes, it's all about ME, isn't it.

I knew getting involved with this conversation was a bad idea. I can't be civil about this, and it leads to further incivility.

Plus I'm held to different standards than the rest of you, to the point where I can't say ANYTHING without being accused of hijacking a thread. And yet while I'm still attempting to discuss a point, we let flamewars continue unabated, oh I'm totally in that SAME category, oh THOSE aren't hijacking threads. It leads me to wonder why I even BOTHER.

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Thursday, July 4, 2013 6:04 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Byte, do you disagree that there are things that happen in the brain without a person's awareness and purposeful direction (that have no "I" involved)?

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Thursday, July 4, 2013 8:00 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Mal4Prez brought it up, she just didn't use the terminology to describe what she was accusing me of.

But that's what it is. That's what it is exactly. It's Freud.


No Byte, it's not. no matter that you keep insisting that you know what I am thinking and saying better than I do, you do not. You are not omniscient. YOu are filtering.

Did I ever mention playing the piano asleep? No. You did.

The reason my argument seems so wrong to you is that YOU are making up meanings that have nothing to do with what I'm saying. It really would be nice made some attempt to understand what I am actually saying. Perhaps I expect too much.

OK, our brains seem to work quite differently. This is fine by my book. I am open to exploring that. This conversation could go: "Oh, you think like that? You play music like that? Weird I don't at all! I do this..." Rather, you've come into all confrontational: "What you're saying is really THIS (and don't try to tell me that I'm not omniscient and I don't know EXACTLY what you're thinking) and it's all bullshit and you're wrong!"

Do you realize that you are flat out telling me that I'm wrong about how my brain works because yours doesn't do that? Do you realize that you are doing exactly what you seem upset with me for doing?

That's just very nice Byte. Which I suppose you won't mind, because you do often seem out to prove how not nice you are. OK. You did it this time.

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Thursday, July 4, 2013 8:11 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Plus I'm held to different standards than the rest of you, to the point where I can't say ANYTHING without being accused of hijacking a thread.


Bullshit Byte. Enter a discussion as an attacker and you will be treated as one. Look back at your first post to me. You flat out told me I was wrong, and you weren't nice about it.

And yes, you did make it all about YOU.

You say you're all into logic. So remove the emotion, or come back to this when the emotion is past because you do seem quite emotional now. If there is a pattern to the way people react to you, there must be a logical reason. Either there's some big secret cabal passing notes planning this, or it's something YOU are doing to invite the response.

Which makes more sense?

And, conveniently, which case gives you direct control over changing things?

OK, this has indeed become a hijack, partly my fault. I will go back up the thread and see where it can be picked up.

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Thursday, July 4, 2013 9:05 AM

BYTEMITE


My first post to you was about how sorry I was that I didn't notice your first post in the thread.

My first DISAGREEMENT with you, I was rude. You all do give as good as you get though. And considering that I felt provoked since Sig's original post, and you all KNOW it, but managed to reign it in for this long, who really is attacking WHO here?

Quote:
Either there's some big secret cabal passing notes planning this


This one is making more sense all the time, as it turns out.

I'll let you continue your conversation in peace, without my disruptions, as I had attempted to do before we all started insulting each other.

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Thursday, July 4, 2013 10:09 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Either there's some big secret cabal passing notes planning this ...


This one is making more sense all the time, as it turns out.


Just wondering - where is your evidence? I personally haven't seen any.


To get back to the thread ... I do have to say, your posts regarding 'our truest selves' aren't logically consistent as applied to you. On the one hand you say you were 'born mean'. On the other hand you say that your mind is entirely under your conscious control (there being no unconscious influencing our - as a species - actions). I don't think it can be both. Because if you were 'born mean' - and continue to be mean - then there's an influence not under your control.

But I'm curious about your 'born mean' state. I get really mean when I'm in a lot of pain, loose too much sleep (and so loose my perspective and psychological resilience), am ill (energy reserves go too far down to cope), or am under serious threat, or am feeling overwhelmed by too many demands with no end in sight. All of these relate to a situation where I can't be securely comfortable, and therefore somewhat removed from stress. I don't know what the hormonal/ neurochemical profiles of those states are (though I've read it's too much epinephrine, not enough norepinephrine), but it feels like cold rage. Perhaps you were born with that neurochemical profile, which predisposes you to interact with your environment in a particular way.

Anyway, to relate this to 'our truest selves' - I think we are all born with a particular balance of hormonal/ neurochemical responses predominant. Not all of these inborn states are either comfortable, or helpful in terms of survival. (BTW, I also think in the 'wild state' these randomly-generated unhelpful profiles would lead to death by accident.)

However, due to our ability to be modulated by teaching and experience, most of us can zero-in on a somewhat different set of responses. For example, Frem, I don't believe, would be who is is if he'd grown up in a different environment. He himself seems to think that his responses crystallized into permanent (or semi-permanent) features due to his environment.

But there's also a truism that goes - when we are young, we are the people we were raised to be. When we get old, we are the people we were born to be. I've found that to be true as I go through life and observe how my responses - even my basic perceptions - change. One thing that HASN'T changed is my ADHD, which I suspect is a permanent feature of how my brain functions (a feature which can be found even in monkeys of the same species btw - the brain responds differently to the same challenge in ADHD v non-ADHD monkeys).

I suspect as you get older you'll encounter more and more of the person you were born to be. I wonder who that is.

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Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:00 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Either there's some big secret cabal passing notes planning this ...

This one is making more sense all the time, as it turns out.

Wow. You must think you're pretty damned important to warrant your own cabal. By all means, continue to live in the paranoid and self-centered state if you choose.

How's it workin' out for you so far?

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I don't think it can be both. Because if you were 'born mean' - and continue to be mean - then there's an influence not under your control.
Good point.


Quote:
Anyway, to relate this to 'our truest selves' - I think we are all born with a particular balance of hormonal/ neurochemical responses predominant. Not all of these inborn states are either comfortable, or helpful in terms of survival.

Yes and yes! I think it is a misunderstanding of evolution that every trait in every individual MUST directly contribute to survival. It doesn't work that way. There must be diversity of traits because nature has a lot of randomness. Simple case: the climate may suddenly (in the geologic sense) get much colder or much hotter. A species should have members that will do well with hot but die in cold, and also do well in cold and die in hot, so that the species will survive whichever shift happens.

At any point in time, traits within a species "spread out". Random mutations etc take us in all kinds of directions. Some will help, some won't. Some won't matter.

I have been leaning toward starting a kind of weird thread about this very topic, in fact. Guess I will...


Quote:
But there's also a truism that goes - when we are young, we are the people we were raised to be. When we get old, we are the people we were born to be. I've found that to be true as I go through life and observe how my responses - even my basic perceptions - change.


Yep, I see that. As a kid we are so much like our parents. Man, do I see this in my students, and I know I was. I think some people stay like that if they stay in the same environment, but getting out and about exposes us to new things. As I get older I get all these "samplings" of how I can change. Some of these changes fit whatever I was born to be.

I feel I don't at all resemble the person I was in high school or even in my 20s. I tell people now what I used to be like and they don't believe me. One thing I'm looking forward to in my 25th high school reunion in a few years. OK, I hated high school, but I really am curious to see if those people find me different, or if maybe I'm not as changed as I thought. So I'm looking forward to it as a chance to gather data, so to speak. :)




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Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:55 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Missed this one.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

And Magons, there's a lot more criticism against the idea of the unconscious than you're realizing. Psychologists still like it though so they do experiments about it. But I find a lot of their experiments don't really met the standards of vigour.

Also, the linked discovery article has exactly the kind of wishy washy poorly supported speculation about dreams that I can't stand.


I've never talked about the 'unconcious' on this thread. You are the one who keeps bringing it up as well as Freud which is why you keep jumping to the idea that someone is accusing you of harbouring repressed memories. Big leap there.

It's interesting to me that you have no evidence to back up your ideas, and yet you require scientific evidence for mine. When I provided some links to some articles, you've criticised the lack of rigour, but still fail to provide links or explain your own ideas in anything other than your own personal experience.

Own personal experience/musings does fine for me on this topic. I think you should be consistent though and not require from others which you are unwilling or unable to provide.

I'm interested in what you think of dreams. What is their purpose? Why is REM sleep important?




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Thursday, July 4, 2013 9:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I am aware of EVERYTHING. It's actually incredibly annoying. I feel every stutter in my heart, to the point where I've had myself checked out for a-fib and I probably do have some sort of psychosomatic texidor's twinge.
Oh, while you may be aware of more than most, I think it would be impossible to be aware of EVERYthing all the time.

OTOH - has anyone ever suggested that you might be autistic, or something like it? Autistics tend not to see, hear, or feel as most people do. When confronted with a film which pictures (among other things) a human face in the center, their eyes look at everything equally? That autistics feel fabric texture more acutely than most, to the point where labels and pockets and buttons become very irritating? That autistics hearing tends to be hyperacute? Not that all autistic's senses are all hyperacute, but I think there may be something wrong with the filtering process that allows the brain to turn down the gain on repeated, inconsequential signals.

Just a thought- what do you think?

BTW
Quote:
But the unconscious is so poorly understood despite the insistence of psychology that it exists and all the research they do, that I have my doubts that it DOES.

What possible evolutionary advantage is there to have some sort of secret hidden knowledge that we can't tap into as necessary? What would be the purpose of such a division of functions?

What people call the unconscious I suspect is really just the animalistic parts of the limbic system
I think there is more to the unconscious than "just" the animalistic parts of the limbic system. Before there was a human brain, there was a fully-functioning other brain... several of them, I think... that did a lot of what the whole brain does: it takes in stimulous, attaches a value to it (good, bad, irrelevant), remembers it for the next time, and is able to make the experience fuzzy (abstract) enough that the memory CAN be used at some future date for comparison. I read of a woman whose memory was destroyed in a car accident. Nonetheless, she COULD be trained to work at a job. Neither she nor the experimenters could figure out how she rememebered, but she did. I think of our brains as like a ladder... several rungs, some lower and some higher but all fully functioning at their level and all operating in parallel

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Tuesday, July 9, 2013 6:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


just a bump

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