What should we teach in school? by SIGNYM

I think AgentR here has nailed it dead-bang-square, and thankfully FreeSchools and related Sudbury-System educational aspects have been prospering around here, even a few religious ones - whilst the for-profit "Charter" schools have been failing miserably, caught out cheating, and one even had their charter REVOKED - it's just like the whole thing with Costco vs Walmart, the dynamics we are told as fact are almost entirely lies, and upon any real examination of the evidence, those lies fall before the crushing weight of reality despite desperate denials.

FACT: The Charter schools are FAILING.
FACT: The Freeschools are so overwhelmed they have a WAITING LIST.

The other minor factor I wanna throw in is some level of understanding that conventional Public Schools *teach* bullying, whether they mean to or not, simply by virtue of their domineering, heirarchal, might-makes-right systems, and the real damage of this comes much much later via the assumption that such bullying stops at graduation - it don't, and those bullies then become your judges, your cops, your homeowners org, your local politicians - potentially and eventually national politicians....

How does this poison everything ?
Here's a little sample - this is what happens when you put a fucking BULLY on the school board, although it's quite rare in fact that anyone stands up to them given the hell they can bring down on your kid by proxy.
http://jonathanturley.org/2013/07/10/new-york-firm-terminated-after-la
wyer-has-meltdown-in-parking-lot-after-school-district-meeting/

Another note: reducing "required" educational credentials, or at the very least subsidizing the enormous goddamn debt attaining them accrues, especially given they're for a career that pays jack shit - lets face it, anyone who can freakin read can teach it with a minimum of training, and those kind of people willing to just-follow-orders and jump through hoops on command and kiss enough ass to get through it all are the absolute WORST people to be teaching kids critical thinking skills and the ability to challenge assumptions.

Just some random semi-blitzed thoughts on it.
In Vino... Veritas.

-Frem

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:43 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

I think AgentR here has nailed it dead-bang-square,

I blush. Many of my thoughts on this evolved partly through reading your posts here over the years. It's been very educational and thought-provoking.

My ideal school is based in my ideal wishverse community, which is basically small neighborhoods of mixed-use dwellings centered around a village-square-like public greenspace, near which you find the central institutions of community hall, public library and school. Most everyone bikes or walks to work and all longer travel is done on big, comfy, affordable magic high-speed trains. It's all very outdoor-based in Rouka-land, and people all know each other from bi-weekly neighborhood meetings. It's like lots of very small towns that add up to a big city. And not a single residential-only, car-necessitating suburb in sight.

Done with the derailment. On you go.

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

How does this poison everything ?
Here's a little sample - this is what happens when you put a fucking BULLY on the school board, although it's quite rare in fact that anyone stands up to them given the hell they can bring down on your kid by proxy.
http://jonathanturley.org/2013/07/10/new-york-firm-terminated-after-la
wyer-has-meltdown-in-parking-lot-after-school-district-meeting/

Looked into this link and followed it to many others. This is not just a case of one jerk of a lawyer having a meltdown. There's some seriously wrong stuff happening in the Ramapo School District. Hopefully this asshole's antics will go virile and bring attention to the situation.

As for what I'd teach: I don't know enough about the early years to recommend a whole course of education, but there are certainly things I'd change. The first and best thing to be done is to make schools about *education* rather than a source of money for the cult of the Collegeboard and the textbook companies. But I have no hope of that happening, since the American system is ruled by money-makers. Our schools reflect our wider culture.

The second thing I could go off about is math. It's unbelievable to me that kids take math every single year of their education and a majority graduate high school barely literate in the subject. Sure, they get drilled enough to follow some steps and pass a test here and there, but they have no understanding of how that logic and language is actually useful. It's a big waste of their time, and it's counterproductive. They spend 13 years studying math and end up hating it, because they think it's all about working 50 pointless and mind-numbing quadratic equation problems. *banghead*

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 10:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Reading, writting, math, science, history, and the arts are what should be taught. The real trick is presenting this thing in a way that the student make discoveries for themsleves and in the end learn how to learn.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 11:45 AM

Like both these concepts for learning. The Walker approach needs to be done well by teachers who embrace it.

http://walkerlearning.com.au/info/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education

And lots of encouragement for creativity. Art, music, drama should all be given equal status to the left brain curriculum.

I know you hate TED signy, but this is worth a look.

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.htm
l

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Reading, writting, math, science, history, and the arts are what should be taught. The real trick is presenting this thing in a way that the student make discoveries for themsleves and in the end learn how to learn.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

I agree to some extent, but things can be taken too far. I know a woman who taught physics in Tennessee (I think ti was?) where they do this "inquiry-based" learning. The teacher basically hand kids some carts and masses and general guidelines then sits around and waits for them to discover Newton's Laws. Really, you wait and if they don't find it you don't tell them. It's nuts.

I'm all for hands-on activities and labs, but very few students I've encountered can effectively teach themselves, not at high school age. It's sad, because I really would like to do more student-led learning. But it's not effective when used too often or early. Even with my very bright, motivated seniors it has to come late in the year.

OK, not really related except that clips like this make me forgive Ted for being more than bit creepy with it's smiley utopian enthusiasm:

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 12:09 PM

Fate seems to be toying with me lately as I keep running across all manner of weird ironic coincedences this week, and here comes another - this blistering 48 minute (hint: save it for when you have time) speech by Cevin Soling, the guy who produced the documentary The War on Kids and had to tone it down radically to even get it out the door, pulls no punches in excoriating the root problems and causes of what exactly is wrong with the Public School System as we currently practice it - well worth watching as a sure bulwark for what NOT to do.

-Frem

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 1:39 PM

Frem, I'm watching this video, about 2/3 through, but I have to comment on what I've seen so far. Ironically, I've tutored kids from the town where this guy went to school and I'm familiar with that culture. I am well aware of its shortcomings as well as its strengths.

His basic points are ones I agree with. The testing culture is just awful, schools can be impersonal factories with little respect for individualism, and it really sucks how kids are confined and given few options. High school for me was certainly a lot of time wasted sitting around waiting for class to end. Public schools can be more baby-sitting than learning.

The culture of failure strikes a note. It is a strange dynamic, and one that is often abused. I certainly had some awful teachers, and I'll all for finding a way to curtail that crap. I've had debates about grade curves and such with other teachers. I am acutely aware of my position as Judge, and I'm shocked at how readily the kids hand me that power. Yes, they have been trained to do that. I'm glad to be in a place where I can encourage them to not be so accepting. I encourage them to challenge me. And they do. And sometimes they win.

BTW: I find it especially ironic that teachers spend their lives passing judgement, but are extremely adverse to being judged themselves. Teachers in my school do not react well to the suggestion that their classes be observed by the principle or other teachers. WTF is with that hypocrisy?

Here's the opposing view: no one will go through life without being in a position to be judged. We all have to learn to handle that, and it ought to start in school. Can you imagine applying for jobs when you've never had to deal with a stranger assessing you? Even if sucks, surviving the judgement of others is a necessary life skill.

Here's my bigger problem with this video (and it's where I often disagree with you, Frem) This guy goes to an extreme by assuming that his opinion and his ideas are universal. He's pretty much saying that anyone who says they like/liked school is brainwashed. This is disingenuous at the very least. He assumes school=evil and every observation he makes is colored by that belief. So it is not convincing that he arrives at the conclusion that school=evil. I do not see an open mind in this man, and that makes me doubt everything he says.

He gives examples of insanely bad stuff happening in public schools (ie locking kids in cages) and claims that stuff like this is commonplace. This is also not convincing. How commonplace, exactly? Give me some stats, or I have to wonder if its just his bias coloring his observations. He's just like Rappy using a few examples of Muslim extremists to support his claim that all Muslims are evil.

Is it a shame that his disgust with public school leads him to be so one-sided, because he has very good points about many things that need to be improved. But the way he takes things to such extremes makes me doubt even the things I at first agreed with.

OK, will finish watching now.

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 2:13 PM

The rest of the video...

Yes, corporal punishment is nuts and this cases he brings up are way wrong. This should not happen. But I do not agree with this guy that public schools are purely to blame. These are larger societal ills that show themselves in schools. Blaming schools just missing the real root of the problem: patriarchal authoritarian society.

OK here's one the gets me: this guy just said that everyone who ever supported the DARE program should be publicly ridiculed and cast down, etc. This SOB just lost me. He is soooo against the bullying in public schools but he's 100% ready to bully other people who tried something that didn't work. I have little idea what the DARE program is, but I'm willing to believe that it's fucked up. But to call for public humiliation of people like that... ?

Are kids bullied and mistreated in public schools because teachers want to hurt them? No, of course not. (Except in extreme cases which, like all extreme cases, are crazy people and will happen anywhere.) Bad teachers think they have some reason to do what they do, and aren't aware of being bad. Teachers are blinded by their reasons and their good intentions.

Which is exactly what he is doing. This guy is just as blinded by his own reasons and his own biases that he's just as willing to partake in the behavior he abhors. Hypocrite.

Moderation in all things is the answer, I believe. This man does not have it. Again, it's a shame, because there are many things he's right about.

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 2:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Beyond the basics, ( which apparently aren't taught nearly enough ) less PC crap, and more TRUE history would be the tops of my list.

I loathe much of what IS taught, as much as what ISN'T taught. History is a great example. That there are many folks who think that Columbus discovered America while trying to prove the world wasn't flat...kills me.

Magellan didn't circumnavigate the world either. He died in the Philippines.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:26 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

There oughtta be high school level courses in financial literacy.

I used to catch this guy, Dave Ramsey, on the radio as I drove to work. He could listen to a caller's financial troubles for a couple of minutes, and then reduce their problems to a very simple calculation, cut right to a sensible solution. I, or other people, might disagree with him, but he was amazing. Financial literacy was a thing he advocated-- teach kids how money works.

How long do you have to work to pay off that cool (and I don't even know what brand of car IS cool right now.) car you gotta have? Or that Harley you want? or even that new x-Box you're hustling your parents out of? How much will it cost you in insurance? How do you deal with taxes? (We learned how to do our own in HS when I went.) Why pay H & R Block to do it for you? How do you take out a loan to buy a house or start a business? What do the interest rates on that mean? What do the interest rates on your college loans mean?

Is it worth it, in the long run, to spend a bunch of money to go to a prestige college, or better to go somewhere less cool, but less expensive, and work your butt off to learn while you're there, rather than party, and to qualify for a good job based on what you KNOW, rather than what school you went to, or who your frat brothers were?

How much debt can you carry? How much should you save? How much does it cost you to live a fashionable life style, vs. what you REALLY NEED? And what could you do with the difference, in cash? How much do you spend on grown-up toys that you could invest?

All good subject material to counter the barrage of commercials a kid gets on TV or TV talk shows, or MTV, where if you ain't got the latest cool thing or hip pair of jeans, you're pond scum.

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 4:57 PM

Gotta finish up quick here, but what I got so far...

Quote:
BTW: I find it especially ironic that teachers spend their lives passing judgement, but are extremely adverse to being judged themselves. Teachers in my school do not react well to the suggestion that their classes be observed by the principle or other teachers. WTF is with that hypocrisy?

Yeah, really - this was also prevalent at my nieces school before I broke off relations with her over her decision to jump the shark - in her words "well, if I am going to be blamed/punished for this shit regardless, then I AM GOING TO DO IT!"... nothing I CAN do about it from here, and it grinds me hard, as that also followed the whole downward spiral of another one from a vaccine reaction, etc.

Anyhows, that school went whole hog on surveillence cameras, at the expense of curriculum and necessary supplies (excluding of course, the sports department, grrr) to the point where *I* had to go find math textbooks and ship them to her.
This was soon followed by the out of the blue resignation of the assistant administrator to "spend more time with his family" and the removal of cameras from the bathrooms and I am SURE you can put two and two together there.
But the real capstone was that by virtue of how the system was run (I'll spare the tech details), it was easy as hell to access, and having secured that access I then shared it and a few clips of teacher/admin behavior with the parents, thus allowing the parents to use those cameras to monitor the staff - who then had those cameras ripped out so fast they had to sink the budget into the red to do it!
Oh, and worth a mention was the 22% INCREASE in crime and drug use during the period where those cameras were active, their story is they were "catching the ones that usually got away with it" and MY take is that fear and paranoia create the mentally and socially unhealthy atmosphere that creates those things.

People in "Authority" of any kind, don't like it a bit when you turn those cameras around on them, that's a fact, rights-for-me-and-not-for-thee, which is as Anti-American a sentiment as there ever was.

Quote:
Here's my bigger problem with this video (and it's where I often disagree with you, Frem) This guy goes to an extreme by assuming that his opinion and his ideas are universal. He's pretty much saying that anyone who says they like/liked school is brainwashed. This is disingenuous at the very least. He assumes school=evil and every observation he makes is colored by that belief. So it is not convincing that he arrives at the conclusion that school=evil. I do not see an open mind in this man, and that makes me doubt everything he says.

I did mention he lacked any mercy, despite coming off as a rather personable fellow, and I think we both see his point, even in spite of your disagreement.
He is essentially making the same "rotten barrel" argument I make towards our current law enforcement, but without acknowledging you can change the structure OF that barrel significantly without altering the form - I am not sure if he's had any experience with FreeSchool or Sudbury-Type Schooling, and it is that lack which might be the root of his conclusion.

All that said, in other discussions I've pointed out that children are individuals and there are indeed some who would not benefit, would even do poorly, in the latter two environments because they seem to require more structure than those offer - religious families tend to do well with a more structured environment for learning, which is why Catholic Schools often perform well overall, because they are more in line with the students own desire for that structure, you see.

Still, there needs be less authority and more accountability, both to the community and the students themselves, I've seen a couple student-run schools with a very similar structure that seemed to work well enough, because they gave them a voice, allowed them to put hands on their own wheel of destiny, so to speak.

My issue is that while dropping bombs on the problem, he doesn't really offer solutions, but I think given the scope and purpose of the meeting at the time, brainstorming potentive solutions was the end goal.

Quote:
He gives examples of insanely bad stuff happening in public schools (ie locking kids in cages) and claims that stuff like this is commonplace. This is also not convincing. How commonplace, exactly? Give me some stats, or I have to wonder if its just his bias coloring his observations.

Ridiculously, ludicrously, HORRIBLY commonplace.
Here is a TINY sample (cause I gotta suit up and do rounds here shortly)

Meridian MS.
http://nation.time.com/2012/12/11/the-worst-school-to-prison-pipeline-
was-it-in-mississippi/
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/feds-authorities-in-merid
ian-miss-violated-rights-of-black-children/
http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/11/school_prison_pipeline_meridian
.html

Texas.
http://www.propublica.org/article/federal-complaint-alleges-rampant-ab
use-in-texas-truancy-program

CBS Editorial.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8334-504083_162-57356164-504083/burping-doodlin
g-food-fights-should-students-be-arrested-for-minor-misbehavior/

An example from Birmingham - I can pull a HUNDRED of these out, without even trying.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/05/07/57383.htm

Adding cops to the mix (aka School Resource Officers) has only made it worse, both by virtue of them overreacting by default, and the steadily growing epidemic of them molesting, exploiting and bullying the kids they're supposed to be protecting, also with reams of evidence.

Quote:
Yes, corporal punishment is nuts and this cases he brings up are way wrong. This should not happen. But I do not agree with this guy that public schools are purely to blame. These are larger societal ills that show themselves in schools. Blaming schools just missing the real root of the problem: patriarchal authoritarian society.

Which is where my focus has been from the start, but he's got a point in how they feed each other, indeed he does.

Quote:
Moderation in all things is the answer, I believe. This man does not have it. Again, it's a shame, because there are many things he's right about.

Doesn't make him necessarily wrong, but as you point it, it DOES unfortunately make him hard to work with - it's one thing to cry foul when you have some answer to how to fix it, but....
Oh, and in regards to shunning and mocking, I can't say much to it without being hypocritical cause I personally feel that should be the response to anyone who volunteers as a triggerperson of tyranny whether it be police, soldiers, or alphabet goons - although I tend to edge on benefit of the doubt and mild pity when it comes to teachers as a whole, preferring to focus my ire on them only at an individual level.

Worth sayin also, sometimes you gotta be ruthless, merciless, even villainous, when you are trying to hammer down a static structure with limited venue and resources, I know all too well that many of my actions in regards to dealing with the hellcamps, especially at first, were both apalling and completely over the top - and I deride them as the immoral and vicious acts they were even as I maintain the necessity, making excuses leads down that ends-and-means self justifying BS which I do not subscribe to, so I see where he's coming from... but more important, MUCH MUCH more, is the key point of how to get "there" from "here", and so far Cevin hasn't offered us anything on that front, which is indeed, disappointing.

-Frem

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 5:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Gotta finish up quick here, but what I got so far...

Quote:
BTW: I find it especially ironic that teachers spend their lives passing judgement, but are extremely adverse to being judged themselves. Teachers in my school do not react well to the suggestion that their classes be observed by the principle or other teachers. WTF is with that hypocrisy?

This was soon followed by the out of the blue resignation of the assistant administrator to "spend more time with his family" and the removal of cameras from the bathrooms and I am SURE you can put two and two together there.
But the real capstone was that by virtue of how the system was run (I'll spare the tech details), it was easy as hell to access, and having secured that access I then shared it and a few clips of teacher/admin behavior with the parents, thus allowing the parents to use those cameras to monitor the staff - who then had those cameras ripped out so fast they had to sink the budget into the red to do it!

What I encounter is not so extreme. The teachers I know are self conscious that they might be slightly disorganized in highlighting the art of the Middle Ages or the correct forms of a Latin noun. You know, the things that might earn something less than an A for a kid.

In the later part of your post you have links to isolated events of school horror. Note that your links are from the backwards red states. Really, are you going to blame the education system for larger cultural issues? Throw out the baby with the bath water?

I have yet to see a systematic link of all this to the public school system. People are flawed, and people in the fucked up US economic/social system, even more the neo-con delusional areas, are even more flawed. How is this directly the fault of public schools, which are trying as best they can to prepare children for life in the real world?

Or would you rather return to the Middle Ages with no public education whatsoever?

So how about you turn around and look for examples where the public schools helped. Which do you suppose are more prevalent? Hey man, I fucking hated high school, but I'm not going to blame the school. In fact, my teachers gave me what I needed to get away from the real root of what made me unhappy. How much time do you spend looking for cases like this, where the public education saved a life? Or do you only respond to the cases that support your dislike of schools?

You do point out a big flaw in the video guy's talk. I intentionally left it out, seeing as he was just the opening talk to a whole conference and I thought the missing solutions might follow. He does provide no solutions. What I didn't say is that I feel pretty strongly that the problems he sees are bigger than our school system, and by attacking our school system he could very well make the problem worse rather than better. He is scape-goating and missing the root of the issues.

Quote:
All that said, in other discussions I've pointed out that children are individuals and there are indeed some who would not benefit, would even do poorly, in the latter two environments because they seem to require more structure than those offer

As a student I hated structure. I came into teaching with this philosophy, but I have had to shift. Young people need structure, they need guidelines, they need some amount of pressure. I have been unwilling to give into this, and I remain open to kids who can function without it, but Frem the thing you do not see is that kids are not adults.

No, they absolutely should not be spanked or abused or marginalized, and there is room to give them more voice than they currently have, but they are definitely not adults who can teach themselves or make long term decisions about their lives. They need structure. >>They react well to it.<< I have seen this, and have had to change because by not giving them structure I was failing them.

This is not brain-washing. This is counter to my native way of thought. It is what I've learned through years of teaching. Kids need structure. They simply are not adults.

Quote:
Worth sayin also, sometimes you gotta be ruthless, merciless, even villainous, when you are trying to hammer down a static structure with limited venue and resources,

Oh Frem. That makes you no different from those who think they have to "hammer down" on kids because those kids might make bad decisions that will ruin their prospects. Both extremes are wrong. Kids are humans who are far better and far worse than we think, capable of amazing triumphs and horrible failures.

But, Frem, so are adults. But you do not allow this. It seems that you do not allow adults any benefit of the doubt. So when do humans go from supported teens to hated adults for you?

I challenge you to look it from the other side. The "school" side: a small percentage of students are stupid and desperate enough to write notes on the inside label of a water bottle so now we have to assume that all kids are that devious and no one is allowed to bring water bottles into AP exams. Which take place in May when it can be quite warm.

Yes, this is stupid. I proctor these exams and I have to be openly apologetic about treating these kids like they are all cheaters so they can't drink water or use mechanical pencils. (BTW, I still caught a kid cheating this year. Does that I mean I believe they are all cheaters? NO!)

The other side that you do not see, Frem, because you bond so much with the kids (which isn't an entirely bad thing, but it does blind you a bit.) A few teachers are stupid and insecure flawed little humans and treat their students poorly. Does this mean that all teachers are monsters and the public school system should be thrown out on its ear?

A few gay people get caught being naughty in the nightclub bathroom. Does that mean that all gay people are promiscuous and should not be trusted to raise children?

A few Muslims are extremist freaks and murder innocents. Does that mean we should bomb all Muslims?

A few orthodox Jews take over an upstate NY town and destroy the school system (which makes my blood boil!) Does this mean I should make the Evil Eye at every curly haired hatted black-suited Orthodox Jew I see in NYC tomorrow?

(I wrote this post late when I was tired. Will probably come back and edit for clarity later. Please forgive.)

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 6:50 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Frem

I agree with Mal4. The guy is doing what he rails against - passing judgment and dismissing those who fail his assumptions. He ASSUMES all children are anti-authoritarian freedom-seekers who somehow intuit the direction they must take in life. Children who aren't? Damaged goods. Obviously. Not to be credited as authentic. Not worth noting.

Talk about the pot criticizing the kettle for a dark color shade.

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Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:12 PM

Quote:
In the later part of your post you have links to isolated events of school horror.

But they ain't isolated events, that's the thing, the two larger cases there were ongoing, institutional problems, as was the Kids for Cash scandal (of which I have evidence of it going all the way back to the 1980's) and those are just the tip of a pretty large iceberg - along with the documentation, in the one case a 37 page lawsuit, and in the other the actual information from the police dept itself shows these weren't just a few incidents, but a conveyor belt of abuse, one repeated in many, many locations - I am rather hoping that knocking out for-profit prisons and taking some of the financial incentive out of this cools it down a bit.

Quote:
Note that your links are from the backwards red states. Really, are you going to blame the education system for larger cultural issues?

Not all of these issues and events have been, sadly, those were just the first and most well known ones I could grab in the few minutes before goin on rounds, it's an institutional level problem unfortunately.
That said, that you don't know this, and have not experienced it makes me wanna send kids to wherever the heck it is YOU work, cause it sure has to be a lighter shade of grey over on your side of this fence.

Quote:
How is this directly the fault of public schools, which are trying as best they can to prepare children for life in the real world?

When their established policy and practice is to call for arrests, or involve law enforcement in what is clearly a matter outside their context, or even in the case of the whole kids for cash mess, directly profiting from it.

Quote:
Or would you rather return to the Middle Ages with no public education whatsoever?

Easy now, don't shoot the messenger - I've put a lot of thought into this problem, you know I have, and actually have a pet peeve about anyone knocking down structures with nothing in hand to replace them, which puts me often enough at loggerheads with other Anarchists, alas.

I do feel we have to make some radical overall changes, removing as much politics, financial incentive and authoritarianism out of it as possible, and even have some notions on how to go about it, so it's not like intent to go bull in a china shop here, plus there's parts of it outside my competence or knowledge base and I bloody well know it.

Quote:
What I didn't say is that I feel pretty strongly that the problems he sees are bigger than our school system, and by attacking our school system he could very well make the problem worse rather than better. He is scape-goating and missing the root of the issues.

Perhaps - we both feel that the amount of Authoritarianism in our society itself is in fact the pressing issue, but I wouldn't say he's scapegoating so much as attacking one of the venues by which it spreads and calcifies, and that is something to think about, however unpleasant.

Quote:
No, they absolutely should not be spanked or abused or marginalized, and there is room to give them more voice than they currently have, but they are definitely not adults who can teach themselves or make long term decisions about their lives. They need structure. >>They react well to it.<< I have seen this, and have had to change because by not giving them structure I was failing them.

This is not brain-washing. This is counter to my native way of thought. It is what I've learned through years of teaching. Kids need structure. They simply are not adults.

They're also individuals - I say this cause as a child I found most structures exploitive, abusive and despicable, causing my default reaction to be rage, but I wasn't a "normal" kid either by any means, and had been more or less running a household since single digit ages.
Funny though, difficult as it may have been to teach an angry child some of them managed, the most effective of which was a science teacher who simply went hands off and left interesting stuff out for me to "borrow"... by the time I made my jump via loophole, I was already a year and more ahead of that curriculum.

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Oh Frem. That makes you no different from those who think they have to "hammer down" and kids because those kids might make bad decisions that will ruin their prospects. Both extremes are wrong. Kids are humans who are far better and far worse than we think, capable of amazing triumphs and horrible failures.

Yeah, I did learn that - I just refuse to make excuses, I know I got flaws...
But the Hellcamps had to go, they were absolutely and fundamentally abusive, both of themselves and in how they lead our society down the road to torture by refining it on our most vulnerable element of society - and my initial motivation had been revenge and retaliation anyways, along with a desperate need to vent an immense simmering kettle of frustrated rage before it boiled over in a bad way, and thus I picked a guilt-free target that couldn't even fight back without exposing themselves cause at the time they were a "myth", helping the victims only came later cause there was no one else TO do it thanks to the only bond a lot of em had strong enough to allow any help to even reach them was the one with the person who pulled them out of that hell, and initially I resented it cause at that time you coulda measured my empathy for the rest of humanity in a thimble with room to spare - it was only being so desperately needed which fanned that dimming flame to begin with.

Ergo, I don't have a lot of experience with "normal" kids you see, hell, Kiras little brother Glen mystifies me, by my standards he's all studious and serious and well behaved to a creepifyin degree, and I have gently needled him about it thinkin he needed to lighten up, but it's just his way and I can respect that.

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But, Frem, so are adults. But you do not allow this. It seems that you do not allow adults any benefit of the doubt. So when do humans go from supported teens to hated adults for you?

The very instant they become voluntarily and willfully/knowingly complicit in the systems and behaviors which cause the damage...
That said, where did anyone ever think *I* made any real distinction (personally) between "adults" and "children", I only really use the terms because our social and legal structures require them in descriptive nature, but on a personal level I know "adults" I wouldn't trust to scramble an egg, and "children" whom I lean on as a moral compass when I know my own is lacking.

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I challenge you to look it from the other side. The "school" side: a small percentage of students are stupid and desperate enough to write notes on the inside label of a water bottle so now we have to assume that all kids are that devious and no one is allowed to bring water bottles into AP exams. Which take place in May when it can be quite warm.

Yes, this is stupid. I proctor these exams and I have to be openly apologetic about treating these kids like they are all cheaters so they can't drink water or use mechanical pencils.

Err, why are these exams so important ?
*confused*

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The other side that you do not see, Frem, because you bond so much with the kids (which isn't an entirely bad thing, but it does blind you a bit.) A few teachers are stupid and insecure flawed little humans and treat their students poorly. Does this mean that all teachers are monsters and the public school system should be thrown out on its ear?

No, but it does mean the system in which this becomes a common occurance desperately needs questioning and reforms, and folks wouldn't be so hardball about it if the endless excuses and foot dragging (not you, but you know what I mean, I think) weren't parlayed so often into doing nothing.

We need to find a way to get THERE, from HERE - and I am workin on my own little part of that, which must needs be smaller cause I really don't have the background to do anything more.
But seeing the problems and bringing down a beam of harsh light upon them - THAT I can do.

-Frem

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Thursday, July 11, 2013 4:23 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"But seeing the problems and bringing down a beam of harsh light upon them - THAT I can do."

May I suggest you use a laser pointer and not a floodlight, then? Not a lot of people are going to take your message home if it is that ALL schools and ALL boards and ALL administrators and ALL teachers are authoritarian jackboots bent on crushing children and making a profit from them if they can.

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Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:08 AM

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
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In the later part of your post you have links to isolated events of school horror.

But they ain't isolated events, that's the thing, the two larger cases there were ongoing, institutional problems, as was the Kids for Cash scandal (of which I have evidence of it going all the way back to the 1980's)

And thank you greatly for shutting that kids for cash madness down. Really. Now, do you have an estimate of the number of kids involved in that versus the number who went through public school and on to "normal" lives?

A 37 page lawsuit is horrible, I do not doubt, for those involved. It should be followed through and fixed. But it is no reason to destroy a system which works for thousands, if not millions, of others.

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Note that your links are from the backwards red states. Really, are you going to blame the education system for larger cultural issues?

Not all of these issues and events have been, sadly, those were just the first and most well known ones I could grab in the few minutes before goin on rounds, it's an institutional level problem unfortunately.
That said, that you don't know this, and have not experienced it makes me wanna send kids to wherever the heck it is YOU work, cause it sure has to be a lighter shade of grey over on your side of this fence.

I've visited your world. "Hey son, if you get though 10th grade without getting arrested we'll go do **a prank** on those rich bastards across town!" This a mother said to a lost and confused teenaged boy. She thought she was helping. I still want to bitch slap her for setting those standards for a kid who could, and eventually did, be much better than that.

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When their established policy and practice is to call for arrests, or involve law enforcement in what is clearly a matter outside their context, or even in the case of the whole kids for cash mess, directly profiting from it.

This isn't a problem of public schools. This is a problem of people abusing power, which happens wherever people have power, which is everywhere.

Please, do not kill the baby because of the icky bath water.

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I do feel we have to make some radical overall changes, removing as much politics, financial incentive and authoritarianism out of it as possible,

Amen. I do hope we can. I think a lot of ills of public schools would go away if education was 1/10 as supported as our military machine. (I'm making up a number. Likely much less than a tenth would do.)

One thing I've noticed from my experience in "elite" schools is the attention paid to the individual. Public schools should be supported well enough that every teacher knows when Joe Schmoe's grandpa dies so Joe might be a little off for the next few weeks and lets cut him some slack with his homework and test dates. That flexibility isn't possible in the average public school, because the teachers are way over stretched. You know who I blame for that.

It's quite disgusting, how low on the totem pool our youth are. As far as that, you and I agree 100%.

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Perhaps - we both feel that the amount of Authoritarianism in our society itself is in fact the pressing issue, but I wouldn't say he's scapegoating so much as attacking one of the venues by which it spreads and calcifies, and that is something to think about, however unpleasant.

It's not the unpleasantness, it's the lack of effectiveness. Public schools could be a tool to battle this in equality, if they are supported rather than attacked. They are not the problem. They can in fact be a solution. So I watched that video and wished the man was a little more careful with his attacks.

Again: Baby. Bath water.

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They're also individuals - I say this cause as a child I found most structures exploitive, abusive and despicable, causing my default reaction to be rage, but I wasn't a "normal" kid either by any means, and had been more or less running a household since single digit ages.

Not everyone is you, no more than everyone is me. We have to allow kids to be whatever they may be, and design a system that aids as many different kinds of kids as possible. Along these lines, I'm curious about what was presented in the rest of that conference. I'm quite willing to believe that there are better ways to educate. I just didn't see it in that one introductory talk.

BTW, I thank you 100% for fighting the hell camps. I've seen many stories about them since you brought it to my attention here, and they were very much wrong. We need to find a way to stop those without taking the fight too far and shutting down education that actually works.

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But, Frem, so are adults. But you do not allow this. It seems that you do not allow adults any benefit of the doubt. So when do humans go from supported teens to hated adults for you?

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The very instant they become voluntarily and willfully/knowingly complicit in the systems and behaviors which cause the damage...
That said, where did anyone ever think *I* made any real distinction (personally) between "adults" and "children", I only really use the terms because our social and legal structures require them in descriptive nature, but on a personal level I know "adults" I wouldn't trust to scramble an egg, and "children" whom I lean on as a moral compass when I know my own is lacking.

It seems you do that a lot. It seems that you see teens as innocents whose mistakes are the result of youthful inexperience and poor guidance, while the mistakes of adults are due to an inherent and intentional evil plan to enslave the youth.

I am sorry to make this analogy, because I do think you're better than this, but it does put me in mind of those who defend to nth degree an unborn life but put no consideration on the woman, or the children that the embryos eventually become. The people running schools are the people who came from those schools. Why do the kids get all your empathy, while the grown-ups who used to be those kids and are trying their best to apply the lessons they learned when they were "those kids" get no slack from you?

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Yes, this is stupid. I proctor these exams and I have to be openly apologetic about treating these kids like they are all cheaters so they can't drink water or use mechanical pencils.

Err, why are these exams so important ?
*confused*

I very much wish they weren't. But here's where reality gets in the way of what we all would like life to be. Kids want to continue their lives in certain institutions, and good test scores help them get there. Short of bombing the Collegeboard (I am sooo not the type to use any kind of explosive for any reason) how can I help these kids, other than helping them score well?

Should I tell them to demand a reality where test scores don't matter? Yes, I could stand tall feeling like a hero for bucking the system in that case, until I have to deal with kids in tears because their plans are ruined.

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No, but it does mean the system in which this becomes a common occurance desperately needs questioning and reforms, and folks wouldn't be so hardball about it if the endless excuses and foot dragging (not you, but you know what I mean, I think) weren't parlayed so often into doing nothing.

I appreciate the caveat, and I do realize that my current world is not the average public school world where I grew up, but I still cannot think that all these problems will be solved with some other educational system. People are still flawed and our whole society is authoritarian. There will be abuses in any system. We can work within to stop the abuses without scrapping the whole system.

Also, what Kiki said.

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Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:33 AM

Well, as I mentioned, due to lacking background and some of the matter being out of my competence zone, all I got to work with for the most part is "Stick", and what the situation desperately needs is someone to bring "Carrot" to the party - that I think, above all and out of this, we can agree on.

I know my end of the business, just... not so much with the other, alas.

-F

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Friday, July 12, 2013 8:05 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

FREM- I got about 1/3 of the way thru the video, and stopped in disgust. The idea that anyone who liked school was an inauthentic person is, as KIKI said, the same kind of judgmental authoritarian crap that the speaker supposedly is fighting. Only, KIKI said it more eloquently than I, so... what KIKI said.

ALSO, it promotes flawed practice. It seems as if the speaker is saying that teaching and learning is wrong. It seems as if the speaker would have each child recapitulate the entire process of human civilization from scratch. Maybe that isn't what he's saying, but since he never gets around to proposing an alternative, what are we to think?

I believe that teaching and learning IS important. However, I believe that - in addition to learning to read, write, and do arithmetic, it is just as important to teach children to take things apart and put them together. To understand the basic industrial processes that we use. To teach them to learn. To teach themselves the basics of self control*. To teach them to apply logic, and to understand the process of science and philosophy, not just the currently-understood basic facts.

*There was a study done as to how long a young child could resist a goody. Children who resisted the longest were ultimately more successful in school and in life. These children employed specific strategies: turning away, telling themselves that the goody was yucky etc. When those strategies were taught to the other children and they learned to employ them, they were also successful. Sometimes, how you do is just a matter of whether or not you stumbled on (or were taught) a specific strategy, not anything intrinsic to the child or his/her circumstances.

So, to perhaps re-set the discussion away from "what would you take away from schools?", maybe you should re-focus on postive aspects of what YOU would like to teach children. I'm sure you have a lot to offer.

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Friday, July 12, 2013 5:40 PM

Well, as I said, we need more "Carrot" here and less "Stick", but it becomes problematic when you start considering "Stick" is really all I know, and I lack some of the necessary background both in knowledge of educational processes and working with normal kids...
But as has happened many times before, sometimes the wrong person for the job is better than NO person for the job, so I'll try to argue it as best I know, just bear all that in mind.

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I believe that teaching and learning IS important. However, I believe that - in addition to learning to read, write, and do arithmetic, it is just as important to teach children to take things apart and put them together. To understand the basic industrial processes that we use. To teach them to learn.

Well, I've found that in my experience that requires a bit less of a helping hand than it does getting the hell out of the way and not sabotaging it - encouraging curiosity goes a LONG way towards this, and once again I have to pull out the go-to of Doc Perrys work on this one.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/curiosity.htm

Now, once past the abstract, that's where we adults and our experience come in, particularly with problem solving that is logical rather than intuitive, easy enough to offer "Well, there's a way to figure that out, if you wanna hear it.." and they will, provided the seed of curiousity is watered instead of stomped - factually kids LIKE to learn, but we have the bad habit of turning it into such a misery they wind up hating it, the same way forced exercise as punishment can turn a kid off even a healthy level of physical activity.

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To teach themselves the basics of self control...

Hilariously ironic that you reference the mashmallow experiment given I was only JUST discussing it with someone else recently, I have a hilarious parody vid I'll toss in at the end here.

That said, I have found that the most effective way to teach a child self control, absolutely and critically requires EARNING THEIR RESPECT FIRST - the kid I build the dollhouse for as an example, NO amount of threats or punishment from her parents (whom she does not respect, and just between us she has cause..) will affect her behavior very much, but one stern disapproving look from me will stop her on the spot - hell it got so out of hand at one point her folks would call ME on the damn phone to ask her to adjust her behavior cause they knew that might work.
And of course, the key to earning it is that you have to give it to get it, coming right at a kid you just met and demanding they give you deference by virtue of your title, position, age or official authority is a disaster in the making as it sets up opposition from the get-go, and so too is oppositional parenting, that one-two punch of disaster pre-loads kids to despise school before they even get settled there.

Also, in regards to the other discussion where the mashmallow study came up, from perusing a broad range of newer studies uncontaminated by the dubious "science" and rigging that plagued older ones, it SEEMS that children are born not only with a natural, native curiousity and desire to learn, but also SOME kind of moral baseline or impulse to communicate and cooperate, basic Empathy - which is obvious given connection, communication and cooperation is how we thrived and prospered enough to build civilizations (which them try to smash that empathy, ironic!) not by being angry, aggressive, competitive jackasses.
Reason I suggest this is inborn, is cause a lot of these studies involved children at times before the basics of polite society are taught to them, they just naturally behaved so both of their own and by emulating the conduct of others, but moreso the former, our INSTINCT is to cooperate.

Which leads me to start wondering how (in my admittedly limited experience) pre-schools tend to get it more right, focusing on learning through play/doing and cooperative experiences rather than competitive ones, as well as offering a much wider latitude of behavior and tolerance.
I wonder if that model couldn't be adapted, just thinkin out loud here.

I would absolutely throw in some cooperative building experiences, possibly even out in the community itself - having a class build a house for habit for humanity and document their experiences and what they learned from it would be an excellent notion, even in our current system, and it saddens me that Vo-Tech programs are almost the first to go in any budget cut situation cause it offered a wonderful outlet for kids who learn best hands-on, and real world useful knowledge that was immediately apparent to them.

I also spotted an article today that gave me a bit of Hmmm?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/07/10/what-if-you-could-lea
rn-everything.html

Not sure if that would work for everyone - a setup like that works the VERY best for someone like me or Byte, people with a wiki-walk thought process, and doesn't address the human aspect, socialization and getting along with other humans, but it is an interesting concept, yeah.
We DEFINATELY need to add more tech use/knowledge to our curriculums though, it's just too damn much a part of our society not to, it's a necessary rather than optional skill these days and not teaching it does them a disservice.

That's all I got for the moment, just throwin lines of thought around, seeing if I can't cause a concept to gel out of it all.

Oh, and as promised, this hilarious parody of the mashmallow experiment.

(I would just eat it, unless they promised to come back with a whole bag - alternatively I'd start talking to it and see if I could force-develop empathy with it, then reject not only the initial offering, but the rest of them too, meh heh heh... experimenting on the experimenters!)

-Frem

Select to view spoiler:

Erm, you might have to bear with me a little more than usual, as I am starting to suffer the first tenative stirrings of a degradation similar to Creutzfeldt–Jakob and happen to be having a bad day with it - stuff I know back-to-front I can pound out by reflex, but anything else I find stuff slipping out of my grasp, it's VERY frustrating when you know what you wanna say, you know the meaning of the word you wanna use, but the word itself gets away from you and there's you grinding your teeth trying to work around it.

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Friday, July 12, 2013 6:07 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... it's VERY frustrating when you know what you wanna say, you know the meaning of the word you wanna use, but the word itself gets away from you ..."

I've dealt with aphasic people now and again. This was helpful to them, perhaps it will be helpful to you - if you can't find that one word you need, use many. For example, instead of 'self-determination' you could say - it means people being able to decide for themselves what they want to aim for as a society and how they think they should do it.

You know what you MEAN, so maybe you could do what you can to get THAT out, instead of hunting for the one word.

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Friday, July 12, 2013 6:27 PM

Frem - I totally agree about the experiential learning. My dream is for math to be totally revamped, where every bit of it is taught as applications rather than textbook after textbook full of abstractions and hundreds of practice problems involving nothing but symbols. Math should only become a full out abstraction for those who choose to study it in college. Earlier than that, it should be a study of the real observable, measurable world.

And this is coming from someone who loves abstractions.

ETA: Wow, and sorry to hear about the Creutzfeldt–Jakob. That must be frustrating and terrifying.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Friday, July 12, 2013 6:42 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Just as there are those who are dyslexic, there are those who are dyscalculic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyscalculia While many children would benefit from the intuitive/ experiential approach, I suspect that children who are dyscaculic need to be simply taught a routine to follow that allows them to function in the everyday world.

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Saturday, July 13, 2013 8:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

FREM, since you're having an autoimmune response, has anyone suggested immune modification (immune-suppressing drugs)?

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Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:21 PM

Still workin on this.

Mind you I *AM* dyscalc, so I know it all too well - having derived a few of what I can only call high-speed-linear math tricks to replace algebra, the best of which was for of all the things a tabletop game by FASA, and worked in practice FASTER than the provided algebraic one.

Oh, and the problem isn't from an immune response or prions or any of that, it's more that a tipping point of seemingly irreversable damage has been reached, with age, wear and stress having combined to where my systems can no longer keep up with fixing it, resulting in a slow cascade failure.
Of course, when they told me this I laughed in their faces - won't be the first time I've been written off, but sporadic aphasia is a bitch, no doubt about it.

What's rookin me the worst is just HOW MUCH of what I do every day is non-cognitive, hell even some of these discussions are all but cut and paste of stock dialogue from my perspective, and even at the very worst and terrible moments I am still... "functional", albeit in a near-mechanical way, which does give me to wonder just how far someone could go on mere reflex and learned response, which is an interesting though I might posit to the brain boys down at UofM.

So far on the topic - what about sliding scale Freeschools, as much structure as wanted/needed ?
Possible ?
Methodology ?

Argggh, I swear, it's like catching tadpoles barehanded, I got little at the moment.

-Frem

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Monday, July 15, 2013 9:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hey Frem, I really liked your takedown of our inestimable prosecutor. His contribution to the board is immeasureable. Literally.

Anyway, there're vitamins and supplements might help: B complex, choline, fish oil, blueberries and such. What ya think? want me to send you some? PM me a PO box or something, I'll mail off a care package.

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Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:20 PM

*snort*
You'd think he'd learn, but he don't, almost funny in a pathetic sorta way...
(note: even some of THAT was "stock dialogue", which I am sure you kinda noticed)

Anyhows, yah I know all that, but one of the primary things that might help is reducing stress, and with this heat that's tricky, nor is it helped by the dread of every trip to the mailbox cause of the nonstop gamesmanship of my provider(1).
Always the same go-round, too.

We need more information! (95% of the time it's info they already have and conveniently "lost")
*sends it*
You never sent it.
*faxed with confirmation*
We never got it.
*Cert mail/Hand Deliver with receipt*
(3-9 days before deadline)
Nope, not in time, CANCELLED!

Then round and round to a hearing (sans ANY coverage in the meantime), and finally...
Judge: "WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!?"
*in my favor, with reprimand against them*

Five days later...
We need more information! (the SAME info we just fought over)

Not to mention rapidly changing what is and isn't covered, good luck figuring out the 178+ page books of legalese, shipped 14 days AFTER those changes, if at all.
And by keeping folks on the back foot and unable to USE that coverage or afraid to, they die.

Oh, and often as not they demand originals, which means a whole day taken off work and 125mile round trip for a piece of paper they then immediately "lose" and thus require again.
Now just imagine THAT if you were worse off, dependent on a bus route, dirt poor and with a hostile employer looking for excuses to get rid of you, eh ?

Seems the banks are in some trouble for this EXACT same strategy.
http://consumerist.com/2013/06/17/former-staffers-bank-of-america-rewa
rded-us-for-lying-to-homeowners-losing-paperwork-denying-modifications/

Mind you, cracking "Qualified Immunity" on this one is damn near impossible, but given just how far they've gone with this, how long, the damage it has done, and the loopholes in regard to deliberate negligence (which is by the decision of a Federal Judge, what did MOST of the real damage in the first place) and malevolence (one proven case), there is a possibility of busting their chops, of course, provided I outlive their stalling cause even under optimum conditions this is unlikely to proceed before 2018 at best.
They *HAVE* been cited for contempt by a judge who was enraged at having to essentially hear the same goddamn case from them SEVEN FUCKING TIMES in a row over nine months, and handed an injuction forbidding from revisiting the case or even opening the file, which they did four days later, resulting in a contempt citation, and again yesterday, lo and behold, what's in my mailbox...

We need more information! (again, the same info as the first seven times)

Now just imagine the effects on ones health and sanity of TWENTY FUCKING YEARS of this bullshit, nongoddamnstop, allthefuckintime ?!
*Hiiiissssssssss*
Plus the near ridiculousness of being unable to attach any real penalty to those endless judgements against them, which is WHAT we're trying to work around.

What actually concerns me more than loss of function is the pathological rage incidents blindsiding me out of nowhere, given I am already bad-tempered and in pain, and should one of them push it over into berserkerang the possibility of a fatal stroke in result is upwards of 90%.
And this endless harrassment is not helping, no.
Especially in light of the fact that there are a couple tests and things which MIGHT help, but I flat can NOT afford them, period, end of story - even if I could, since I cannot trust my coverage to be active, functional, and in place for even eight freakin hours, I don't dare.

Which isn't even the end of it cause there's kind of an institutional level of retribution and bitterness on behalf of the office in Woodlawn MD (local office here in MI is horrified and appalled at their conduct and wonders what the hell is wrong with them) which is where every single one of these stupid fucking games originates, originally at the hands of one person in particular (since caught, fired, and criminally charged, as of last year) and now the entire office it seems like - this has gone far beyond even any level of polite, they're quite willing to piss all over the rules and even the law both state and federal, nor have they any qualms about using severely abusive and threatening language just short of outright profanity even in official documentation, as well as outright lying to the local office, which caused a real coverage problem since the office in Woodlawn told my local office I was in jail awaiting charges for fraud (thus starting a whole bucket o shit) when in fact I was in the damn hospital near dying from that whole autoimmune mess - thankfully the local office is onto them about this now.
That goes both ways, as I have no remaining qualms whatsoever about using physical threats, extortion or even downright blackmail against them and their employees - not any more, no.

What brings it over into downright sick is that revoking coverage isn't even ENOUGH for them, oh no, their end game is to vaccuum my finances, render me homeless/evicted AND sabotage whatever employment or income I might have at the time - they've actually succeeded in that twice, over the years, but were unable to finish me off, although it did *severely* exacerbate the damage the first time that happened, in permanent ways.

Believe me, it's not an uncommon occurance to see me read the mail, ball my first and growl
WOOOOOOOOOOODLAAWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNN!!!

(1) Said provider is Medicare, and not simply by the standard method of determination, as given they were proven primarily responsible for the bulk of the damage thanks to their rather blatant attempt at murder via medical neglect/denial of care, in knowing and malicious collusion with university of MD Shock Trauma, they are LEGALLY responsible for a certain percentage of my medical care for all eternity, thus making every denial, every attempted revocation, every little attempt to squeazel out of it, a crime - only one they cannot be prosecuted for thanks to qualified immunity.

Of course, none of em ever seem to count on or consider my ability and willingness to pursue even the most "hopeless" fight to the bitter fucking end - and even past it, as I have left directives to all but beat down their door and demand maximum burial expense benefits out of them should I ever take the dirt nap, cause I am LIKE that.

More on the topic shortly, I do actually have some notions on that, just...venting, yanno ?

-Frem

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Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:59 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"pathological rage incidents"

How's your cholesterol? Low cholesterol is linked with that.

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Tuesday, July 16, 2013 8:05 PM

Still workin on the topical post, gonna take a bit that, but just wanted to throw in a bit of funny since the folks in the office seem to think I sounded a bit like Cave Johnson, goin on about the stuff in that last post while writing it... not gonna deny it, I kind of like his attitude.

But yes, large and detailed on-topic post soon to come.
And it's freakin HOT out there... :-P

-F

ETA:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
How's your cholesterol? Low cholesterol is linked with that.

Probably terrible, right along with low blood sodium and pressure - I had one doc all but order me to chow down on pizza and french fries, heh heh heh.

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Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:20 PM

Okay, lessee here, firstoff this is explaination of concept, so any numbers are just arbitratry, smacked down as placeholders so we can get a framework of the idea in place.

Second, this assumes a grade school with a very standardised curriculum, as in the exact same lesson is taught in a particular subject that day without regard to who teaches it or when.

BUFFET TABLE MODEL

Right, now sometimes the illusion of control, or even a small amount of it, is sufficient to assauge the feeling of being pushed around or kicked in the teeth, so we will start out small.

One initial bit to this would be issuing every student a small tablet at the start, this would not be so very expensive as using an extremely basic and perhaps even slightly dated model would cost less in fact than some textbooks (which could of course be preloaded into it) and a simplified version would help low income students who may not have access to that kind of tech at home get up to speed with it - of course they'd be linked to the schools main wireless, WITHOUT any bullshit monitoring or tracking crap.

That handles the tech, now onto the curriculum - as mentioned, standardised, and each teacher, lets say there's six, would teach said subject at a different time, so teacher A teaches say math, at first period while teacher B at second, C at third and so on, with teacher E handling any overflow beyond the normal class size as a utility infielder.

And that is where the Buffet comes in.
Each class would require a certain amount of points for completion, just to go on, say...

English 32
Maths 32
Civics 24
Science 24
Electives 16

And the student could select their five (via the tablet app) and when at the beginning of the school day, with the software barring selections which'd bounce them (say you need eight more Maths and there's eight days left, it would not allow you to skip or replace it) but allowing the student to insert "Free" periods if desired, or if they are far enough ahead of requirements even go Max-Free and have a day off.
Or they could cram them all up front, and reach completion early, which with a little gentle encouragement could result in a mild form of competitiveness based on how early one could bank out, and let them vent a little of their anxieties in that fashion.

Also, no rule against taking more than you need, if you had 24 in Science already and had space for it, go right ahead - no credit for it, but I liked Science enough to have done it.
(Because... SCIENCE, mwahahahaha!, yeah.)

One key thing about allowing the students to decide the WHEN, is that a lot of people learn certain things better or have more interest at certain times of the day - in my case I solve complex problems FAR better earlier in the day, and being Discalc and having trouble with it anyhow, I would definately be stacking Maths first, and then end the day with Science to leave on a high note, see ?

Instead of standardized tests, the exams would involve a problem solving model which required a good working knowledge of the subject, say writing a story for english, arguing for or against a law or amendment, solving a set of problems revolving around the construction of something, and so forth and so on, rather than a set of memorized specifics - exceptional performance would earn them an additional 1 point in that subject.
Also, special projects could earn additional points, and when possible some cooperative projects would be included.

Now, given how tech advances, I'd let them keep the tablets at completion, and even toss a few summer projects for them in there for a leg up and extra points on next years classes, and then at the beginning of next year transfer all their stuff to a new tablet and turn the old one in for recycling, so forth and so on - with of course high schoolers getting more powerful and complex ones, and college students getting top end, and keeping the final one at graduation as a keepsake, which would probably be by then quite treasured, especially if one from a prestigious school with commensurate markings.

Also, at the final year of high school I would also allow employers to send job offers (vetted by the administration first) to the schools main server for the students to peruse, and carry this practice over to the colleges as well.

So... that's the basic framework, and it's only one of MANY concepts, but there's sorting them out and putting them in a coherent fashion since this is soooo NOT my field of expertise.

-Frem

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Wednesday, July 17, 2013 8:19 PM

And some other stuff, while I don't hold high hopes, ending that "Zero Tolerance" idiocy would be a step forward, obligatory that I remind people that once allowed against kids, it'd be used against us, and it was.

Texas Lawmaker Proposes Bill To Strip Funding From Schools That Abuse Zero Tolerance Weapons Policies
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130715/09261623802/texas-lawmaker-p
roposes-bill-to-strip-funding-schools-that-abuse-zero-tolerance-weapons-policies.shtml

Of course, being TexASS, I suspect ulterior motive, but potentially a benefit.

On the OTHER hand, this bullshit, bad enough with the for profit prisons and schools funnelling kids into em for no better reason than wearing the wrong socks (yes, that actually happened), but now for profit schools funnelling them even faster, yeah, that's a bad bad idea...

Cashing in on Kids: 139 ALEC Bills in 2013 Promote a Private, For-Profit Education Model
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/17636-cashing-in-on-kids-139-alec-b
ills-in-2013-promote-a-private-for-profit-education-model

Unlikely to gain any ground here, as the charter schools are failing utterly, cheating and grade pumping scandals abound, along with embezzling and legions of other abuses... while the freeschools are prospering beyond their ability to cope.

-Frem

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Friday, July 26, 2013 10:35 PM

Quote:
He gives examples of insanely bad stuff happening in public schools (ie locking kids in cages) and claims that stuff like this is commonplace. This is also not convincing. How commonplace, exactly? Give me some stats, or I have to wonder if its just his bias coloring his observations.

Further followup on this, via Techdirt

Zero Tolerance Policies Put Students In The Hands Of Bad Cops
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130722/18401023892/zero-tolerance-p
olicies-put-students-hands-bad-cops.shtml

Quote:
The theft of a dollar shouldn't have warranted much more than a visit to the principal's office, if that. But, because of these policies, the school automatically turned it over to a state trooper, who then interrogated two children, presumably attempting to get the 8-year-old to testify against the fifth-grader. Unfortunately, incidents like these are far from rare.

- A water balloon fight towards the end of the school year results in seven students arrested.

- A high school student who changed another student's last name to something inappropriate in the school yearbook is arrested and facing first degree property damage charges, a felony.

- A 14-year-old student is arrested on two charges of "disrupting the educational process" and one count of "obstructing an officer" after wearing an NRA shirt to class -- something that did not violate the school dress code, which bans "depictions of violence" but not guns.

- In Mississippi, kids have been arrested (and incarcerated) for "dress code violations, flatulence, profanity and disrespect."

- In Stockton, CA, a 5-year-old with ADHD had his hands and feet zip-tied by the on-duty officer while he waited for the parents to show up. The child was then charged with "battery on a police officer."

- A cop who was not on duty at a Washington, DC school gave a 10-year-old student a concussion when he "grabbed the back of [the student's] head and slammed his head forward into the table." The student had been sent to the cafeteria for not participating in music class.

- A diabetic student who fell asleep in class claims the school police officer slammed her face into a filing cabinet before arresting her and taking her to jail.

There's more. That's just a sampling. This all builds up to the inevitable end result of cops vs. students, as detailed in this wrongful death suit.

This is one of the major reasons I was against installing cops in schools (often called SROs or School Resource Officers) to begin with, cause it's all the bad of the Stanford Prison Experiment all over again, this time with a legally captive pool of victims - mind you there's more facets to this dark jewel than just this, the amount of sexual predation and abuses by SROs is also freaking appalling, and worse is the "lessons" we are teaching with this.

Submit or else.
Might makes right.
The strong eat the weak.
...
And so on and so forth - not lessons we oughta be teaching anyone, much less kids, and just imagine kids warped by this, wanting to be on the OTHER side, holding the whip... they're gonna be your cops in a decade or two.
Not a happy thought at all, is it ?

We gotta break the cycle SOMEWHERE, and I would prefer doing so at the family unit level, but the public school system could be a good backstop and safety net for that, were we to invest in that instead of military aggression, bleh.

-Frem

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Saturday, July 27, 2013 3:33 AM

The thought of police or security guards in schools seems just wrong to me. Something is very wrong if that is what you need in society, wrong and sad.

Research has shown that environments can create levels of aggression. If places look scary,institutional and threatening and look like violence is expected, then you are more likely to have violent behaviour.

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Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

A little bit offtrack, but I think the first thing I would do is provide a GOOD breakfast and lunch, and maybe even early supper. And I would sneak in omega-3 fatty acids and choline everywhere. Walnut-raisin-oatmeal cookies. Eggs and turkey sausage. Good wholesome food. I'd also provide a lead-level screening with a DEXA.

Small schools, no more than 300 students, total. Small classes. SAFE schools, with bullet-resistant walls and windows if necessary, and screened play areas. Lots of green and shade. Schools with extended hours, that can stand in as after-schools.

Not sure that I would even go with the standard curriculum, aside from reading, writing and arithmetic. I know it's important to read... how else do you access the knowledge of the past? I know it's important to be able to add, subtract, multiply and divide, and it's important to know how to apply those problems in real life, but I entered K-garten already reading and I could have learned arithmetic in a year. 90% of the stuff I learned in school was crap, just crap. I was helping a kid with her high school science homework, and it was all about What was the name of the lander which touched down on the moon? That was "science"???

How about teaching kids how to get along? In our neighborhood, we were part of a close group, and our ages spanned three years.... three years is a big difference in abilities and interests, the difference between five and eight, or eight and eleven. But the parents (or someone!) taught us a lot of outdoor summer gas: pies, red-light green-light, tag, hide-and-seek at night (which became bicycle hide-and-seek as we got older), statues, spud, kickball, tug-of-war... and we spent a LOT of time discussing what was fair: no "tagbacks" when you were "it", you had to run to the tree in "pies" but the "fox" had to stand at least three giant steps away to let you off the porch, littler kids got a giant step head-start in all of our sidewalk races. One day, with a large amount of chalk, we created our own "yellow brick road" on the street, with jokes every few steps. It would be nice to be able to do that at school.

So, how about going on field trips to see how bread is made, or to a power plant, or to see how papers are printed? I LOVED those.

What about real-life problem-solving- fixing a bicycle or fixing some wiring or cooking or gardening or health? Another language?

What about learning how to acknowlege your feelings, and knowing what to do with them? Acknowledging the feelings of others?

Basic philosophy? I don't mean the way philosophy is taught today, as an endless series of arguments between two apparently obssessive-compulsives, arguments which go on (and on, and on) about some detail which must have looked really vital at the time, but now just seem pointless... but what about: How do we perceive? What is real? What is science? How do we "think outside the box"?

And then, for the older kids (highschool age) a real practicum... they get a job, maybe some civic service, which they have to do for at least a year before they go on to higher education. Hopefully by then they will have soaked up the idea that learning is a process that you do in the real world- not just in school, and that it should never stop.

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Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:44 PM

Magons

Quote:
The thought of police or security guards in schools seems just wrong to me. Something is very wrong if that is what you need in society, wrong and sad.

Personally I think that's yet another problem masquerading as a solution - just like how flooding the streets with cops causes a crime spike when they get bored and start shaking down everyone for everything (see also: NY, Stop and Frisk) and then use that spike to justify doubling down on the stupidity... the presence of them causes additional problems, which they then use to justify, yadda yadda.

Ironic that some of THE most awful schools have their own "guards" in the students themselves, who will loudly call off if they see a driveby or hit about to go down, and are equally effective at protecting their own FROM the so-called-protectors... anyone who's heard the cry "FIVE-O, FIVE-O IN DA HOUSE!" (Translation: cops are here, run like hell!) knows how they will work together even if it is in ways society may not approve of.
Damn sad thing too, no one should ever have to teach a child the bathtub drill(1).

Quote:
Research has shown that environments can create levels of aggression. If places look scary,institutional and threatening and look like violence is expected, then you are more likely to have violent behaviour.

Very good point that, a lot of those places just look flat out depressing - even if you can't do much about the architechure, there's lots of cost effective ways to make it look less like freakin Mordor.

A LOT of american schools are on pure visual examination, literally indistinguishable from prisons, and what with the push to have both run by the same private companies, this school-to-prison pipeline trend is something worth pouring every ounce of sand into the gears of.
As I said, I am much, MUCH better with "Stick" than "Carrot", and I got a lotta "Stick" to work with...

Siggy

Quote:
A little bit offtrack, but I think the first thing I would do is provide a GOOD breakfast and lunch, and maybe even early supper. And I would sneak in omega-3 fatty acids and choline everywhere. Walnut-raisin-oatmeal cookies. Eggs and turkey sausage. Good wholesome food.

Yes, and stuff kids will actually EAT, instead of "yucky" stuff that'll cause them to pass on the whole deal, AND that should be wholly subsidized and included with the school budget, which would also end the classism, cause I remember how that went, the mantra of the day being "Free Lunches get Free Punches", yeah.

Quote:
I'd also provide a lead-level screening with a DEXA.

Not sure about this, while not a BAD idea at all - I am sketchy about schools participating in any form of medical evaluation, especially what with the Big Pharma push to stuff kids full of their supposed wonder products, and how it has resulted in folks with no medical training making assessments which don't hold water, and then demanding parents play ball with threats.
So I would hold off on that notion till there can be enough reform to have the necessary trust to allow it, elsewise it could turn disaster quickly.

Quote:
Small schools, no more than 300 students, total. Small classes. SAFE schools, with bullet-resistant walls and windows if necessary, and screened play areas. Lots of green and shade. Schools with extended hours, that can stand in as after-schools.

And LATER hours - while it may be more convienent for us adults to kick kids out of bed at o-god-o-clock after being up half the night with the enormous useless busywork what passes for homework these days, it certainly is a misery for a lot of childen who wind up on a rough start cause they're grumpy, tired, sleepy and annoyed.. starting a bit later, and starting with a nice breakast, as you mentioned, would certainly be a damn improvement.
As for safety without being oppressive, I have some ideas, but lemme chew on em a while more - larger territory is certainly a plus though, the green can be both a happy place and a barrier to outside problems, more the merrier, there.

Quote:
Not sure that I would even go with the standard curriculum, aside from reading, writing and arithmetic. I know it's important to read... how else do you access the knowledge of the past? I know it's important to be able to add, subtract, multiply and divide, and it's important to know how to apply those problems in real life, but I entered K-garten already reading and I could have learned arithmetic in a year. 90% of the stuff I learned in school was crap, just crap. I was helping a kid with her high school science homework, and it was all about What was the name of the lander which touched down on the moon? That was "science"???

Which is what standardized testing does to education, if you ask me...
But yeah, trimming down the educational "pork" is a good start, as is flushing the indoctrination problem (See also TX textbooks controversy) in favor actual applicable skills.

One thing I found EXTREMELY valuable in an everyday way was that home ec course, stuff like comparison shopping, time/fuel/money savings balance, how to mentally defeat price rigging by figuring out what the cost is per oz/lb is instead of list price, all those tiny little things which can get you MORE stuff on your budget, real-world and immediately applicable.

I'd certainly throw in puzzles and projects which would require an actual working knowledge of the subject rather than a few choice memorized phrases, in fact that is what I would use for the tests!

Quote:
How about teaching kids how to get along? In our neighborhood, we were part of a close group, and our ages spanned three years.... three years is a big difference in abilities and interests, the difference between five and eight, or eight and eleven. But the parents (or someone!) taught us a lot of outdoor summer gas: pies, red-light green-light, tag, hide-and-seek at night (which became bicycle hide-and-seek as we got older), statues, spud, kickball, tug-of-war... and we spent a LOT of time discussing what was fair: no "tagbacks" when you were "it", you had to run to the tree in "pies" but the "fox" had to stand at least three giant steps away to let you off the porch, littler kids got a giant step head-start in all of our sidewalk races. One day, with a large amount of chalk, we created our own "yellow brick road" on the street, with jokes every few steps. It would be nice to be able to do that at school.

Many Freeschools offer that experience, and helpful that you mentioned age-range.
The artificial age-based stratification is another problem, which devolves into a couple more all of its own, and a more "open" curriculum would help a lot with that, provided there's proper supervision - I do recall begrudgingly aiding a few students a year or two AHEAD of me with their science stuff in exchange for help with math, stuff like that could be the norm, instead of rare exceptions, if we do not isolate and insulate them.
Hell, if we don't get in the way of it, to connect, communicate and cooperate is the NATURE of children - collective projects would go a long way with that as well.

Quote:
So, how about going on field trips to see how bread is made, or to a power plant, or to see how papers are printed? I LOVED those.

Indeed, and later on, toward the high school years, I'd even allow a free period of discussion with the employer and supervisors for those interested enough to potentially pursue employment there.

The one field trip of that nature I found amusing in a cynical sort of way (cause I was an extremely cynical and bitter kid) was the one to a Burger King, and I distinctly recall telling a couple other students that probably *WAS* their future - I did so to be mean at the time, but out of the mouths of babes...

Quote:
What about real-life problem-solving- fixing a bicycle or fixing some wiring or cooking or gardening or health? Another language?

Vo-Tech has always been a pretty damn nice way to do that, but alas always seems the first victim of budget cuts (cause heaven forfend they chop the sports program!) and if there's one place where bumping the budget is an INVESTMENT, that is most certainly it - such programs are almost universally adored by the kids, and just as much despised by the Randroids, cause without an artificially dumbed down and desperate labor supply, their stupid ideas don't fly.

Quote:
What about learning how to acknowlege your feelings, and knowing what to do with them? Acknowledging the feelings of others?

I think some form of basic pysch/ethics class should be MANDATORY (and I hate, hate, hate that word, and even concept, as you know, but feel it is THAT important) in order to progress.
And negotiation/de-escalation should absolutely be a part of it, but given how MUCH of our society revolves around might-makes-right, getting any immediate results from it would be problematic cause of what I can only call the Mister-Rogers effect, which imma hafta explain here...

You see, as a child I *despised* Mister Rogers, something I feel a little guilty about still - I felt at the time that he was mocking me, this is how things should be, could be, but... NOPE, nyah, nyah, nyah!
And ooooh how I hated him for that.

So, to deny the realities of our society is a trap we'd best not fall in there, because the kids will see right through it, dimiss the lessons entire, and hate you for the "lie" they perceive - ergo the awful realities of our current existence MUST be admitted, engaged and addressed, even as we try to teach them a better way.
How to do so without encouraging them to all but declare war on us and our society as a result...*wince*... not a problem I have an answer to yet, workin on it.

Quote:
Basic philosophy? I don't mean the way philosophy is taught today, as an endless series of arguments between two apparently obssessive-compulsives, arguments which go on (and on, and on) about some detail which must have looked really vital at the time, but now just seem pointless... but what about: How do we perceive? What is real? What is science? How do we "think outside the box"?

Have to take a pass on this one as my process of such is so radically different I can't even EXPLAIN it to others, and just trying wigs them out.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality

Quote:
And then, for the older kids (highschool age) a real practicum... they get a job, maybe some civic service, which they have to do for at least a year before they go on to higher education. Hopefully by then they will have soaked up the idea that learning is a process that you do in the real world- not just in school, and that it should never stop.

Hrmm, interesting notion - in fact that'd work well in combination with my notion that education should ALWAYS be public subsidized, *ALL* of it (thus evading the student loan deathtrap) and doing some course-work related community service in exchange is both acceptable, and would provide them a feeling of accomplishment and engage them in the process as a participant rather than victim.

As to where to get the money, I think y'all know EXACTLY which budgets I would strip for it by now - cheap at twice the price!

-Frem
(1) - The Bathtub drill is somethng ghetto dwelling parents teach their kids, quite simply that when you hear gunfire to run into the bathroom and lay flat in the bathtub for maximum protection against stray bullets.

Select to view spoiler:

I actually got kind of lost out there last night, quite literally forgot what the hell I was doing or where I was going - it was EXTREMELY disturbing, thanks be for automatic reflexes!

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Saturday, July 27, 2013 2:28 PM

Small schools have their advantages and disadvantages. When we were looking for primary (elementary) schools for my son, size was very important. Along with llocation,aesthetics, curriculum and ethos. We got some of that (around 270 students, within walking distance, pretty looking school with lovely gardens) but were mislead on the curriculum and the ethos. What we couldn't see in the pretty prospectus and the school tours was the teaching methods were old fashioned. There was lots of shouting and punitive discipline.

Back to the size, on of the worst things was that it was hard for my son to find like minded kids. There were no problems until the middle years. The kids just chased each other around in a pack, but in the middle years, friendship circles based on interests and personalities began to develop and it became harder for my son. He had his friends, but the vast majority of boys were boysy - football kicking, punching, rough play - and he wasn't like that. He liked creative play. In a larger school, he might have had more choice around his friendship group. Also, the size meant that if you got a reputation in a year, you couldn't shake being typecast.

Anyway, we've still gone for small in high school, and its local, and its in lovely surrounds, but this time we spoke to a lot more people about the ethos of the school. So far its good, but again compromises. Its not government, so we pay fees, not outrageous ones, but still they need to be budgetted for. And its Christian. *Big sigh* Never thought I'd do it, but most independant schools in this country are religious in some ways. so it was either the local high schools which had bad names, travel far for a better high school, or this one.

Don't really know why I have offloaded all this, but there you have it re small.

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Saturday, July 27, 2013 7:09 PM

Oh I grok ya - it's a valid point, every school has its own "flavor" and a larger one is more likely to have a more diverse community, sure.

And yeah verily I know all about typecasting/outcasting, although in my case it worked in my favor cause my brutal and violent reputation meant I was left alone, which I mostly wanted - although I did find it odd the other outcasts hating me cause by not being pushed around and messed with, they somehow got the impression they were having to take my "share" of the abuse, and resented me for this, I guess it upset their distorted sense of fairness.

There's also times when you really *NEED* to "get out of dodge", too - that whole Lower Merion crap and the school and local communitys outright hatred for Blake and his family (the core of the mess had less to do with Blake than the community hating his parents for being of a perceived lower social/financial "class" and simply used their son as a proxy-target) isn't something a couple of lawsuits are gonna fix unless they used the money to MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE, cause otherwise the non-stop, not-quite-provable discrimination and harrassment are never gonna stop.
So a larger and more diverse educational community would help in that respect as well, more choices, and if things go south, the ability to make a fresh start somewhere the hell else is one option well worth the offering, indeed.

I also really don't have too much issue with religious based schools in general, many offer a very good educational curriculum with at least a baseline ethics and morality to go with it - I just wish they'd stick to more "golden rule" and less "burn the heretics", you know ?
That kind of this-is-the-only-right-way dogmaticism isn't helpful in a social or educational context whatever, tolerance is a virtue in any belief, as is compassion.
Even if the child doesn't subscribe to those beliefs, learning about them and those who practice them could be a benefit...
Hell, I was in my teens before I realized Christians weren't completely monstrous, and some of them were even decent people, cause all of the few I had met till them were just downright nasty people, all being from the same malicious clique of em my father belonged to.

So I get your points, spoken and unspoken - and kudos to you for actually investigating before trusting them with your kids education, parents DO have responsibilities, even if so many of them abdicate the damn things.

-Frem

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Saturday, July 27, 2013 7:38 PM

I honestly hope we don't follow the US in regards to the kind of violence that is tolerated, although we do tend to tag along in regards to trends. I understand the need for secirity when the risk factors look so high, but I wonder how you can survive. My son's school is unfenced, backs onto forest and has a stream running through it. Although city schools are more likely to be fenced, I don't think any have security guards. I'd hate to send him somewhere that resembled a prison.

I just picked up a copy of the Brain that Changes Itself, so I might have more to offer on education when I finish reading it.

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Sunday, July 28, 2013 1:50 AM