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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
DOn't hate Halloween per se, just find it a depressing symbol of how much we've been inundated with another's culture.

Yes, that's partially down to choices that Australians make.

But I think to entirely deny responsibility as Americans for the impact of your cultural inundation of the rest of the world is typical American naivism.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I absolutely am doing all this stuff intentionally.

I have owned it, and now we can all have fun. Just had to realize it myself first.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I make no promises, batshit is a necessary part of all interactions with me. I mean, what would people say if I suddenly stopped acting like the lord of all guano? What would fill the terrible void?

It might not be cat pictures. But it's probably cat pictures.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yeah, it's great how everything I say now is basically bullshit! Now instead of simmering resentment on the outside and kinda liking you all on the inside, it's all simmering resentment under a thin veneer of being nice.

Haha I don't care if you respect me anymore.

In before Niki's response!

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:


OK. So do you get that Halloween is not originally American? You do, right?

The commercialization was an invasion to us as much as it is to you.

And explain again how you blame America?

If you die of the flu you'll blame the schmoe next to you who also dies of the flu? Because your immune system is just as weak?
>

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

You want to know who really is a winner at all this? Barbados. The Bajan people turned up their noses at good ol' McDs. And how about Jamaica? Same deal there. You want to honor a culture that rejected imperial capitalism, something the rest of us failed at, look to the Caribbean.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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Ha, pretty accurate that. I think I would probably know less than that.

Did you know its not uncommon for Australians in America to be told how well they speak English (it being our second language and all)

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think perhaps its hard for you to imagine or empathise, given that you live in the domininant world power, but this is one of the reasons people get snippy with Americans. Not only are you are powerful and happy to weild your power militarily, economically and culturally, but you've got that kind of dopey 'we're just trying to be the good guys' naivity going on. Or worse, a refusal to see it as your responsibility. It's just individual choice, right? I think you are smarter than that. That's the kind of argument I expect from Rap or Jongs or Geezer.

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Originally posted by G:


Happy?? You say stuff like that and it's obvious you want to paint every American with the same brush, something I'd expect from Whozit. You confuse governments and corporations for the people of a country, which is kind of International understanding 101. One of the major reasons Obama got in the WH was to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, which we're actually doing, painfully and too slowly, but it is happening. The populace voiced their majority opinion recently against bombing Syria, and overwhelming support for new gun registration and requirements - which our f*cking nutters in Congress decided to ignore. But, yanno, nevermind all that, enjoy your hate, obvious to me at least that's what this is about for you.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Wow, the incredibly, overwhelming hostile reaction because I DONT LIKE HALLOWEEN.

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:


Yeeeaahhh. So many problems with this.

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:


You've said a lot more than that yo.

Check again as to which statements of yours people are reacting to.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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Ha, pretty accurate that. I think I would probably know less than that.

Did you know its not uncommon for Australians in America to be told how well they speak English (it being our second language and all)

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That's cool, I didn't know that.

Say something in wallaby.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

You've said a lot more than that yo.

Check again as to which statements of yours people are reacting to.

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Okay, please tell me which ones.

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Ike warned us. Many people heard the warning, understood, protested.
I am not sure if we were ever a democracy. But by the time President
Eisenhower made this speech, I am pretty sure the average voter had
lost all influence.

As to the disparaties of wealth & power that we have now, I think of
it as returning to feudalism. Worldwide. ... Now what?

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Magons, as I wrote, I understand and empathize a LOT with what you've been complaining about, but even I am beginning to feel like you're tarring us all with a big brush.

The thing about being pro-war in particular kinda got to me. I'm 65; as long as I've been alive, most Americans have been against going to war...remember Vietnam?? Yeah, after we were hit massively on 9/11, people reacted viscerally, that might be rather easy to understand, and our damned military-industrial complex and the Bush Administration made the most out of it and ran with it. But that was a reaction, first, and second, it's governments and militaries who always want to go to war, they aren't "The People". Before you say "but you elected them", give a minute's thought to how military-industrial complexes WORK and how much influence they have over politicians, not to mention that, once elected, politicians often show a warlike aspect they don't mention when campaigning to be elected.

We really are an extremely diverse bunch, and the power and wealth isn't even SLIGHTLY uniformly spread out. Each state here can be vastly different from another mentally, and some of them are on opposite POLES even. We are 314 MILLION people with cultures who have evolved in completely different ways; Australia has a population of 23 million, and tho' yes, you're diverse, not nearly as diverse as we are.

Some of what you've written I agree with; some of what you don't like, we are victims of as well. While, as I said, I think it would be hard for a lot of Americans to see things with an outside perspective and fully understand what you're saying, at the same time I think you are viewing us through your own perspective, and making some false assumptions.

Just my two cents' worth. Mostly I guess I'm trying to say that what the world sees as "American influence" is actually the influence of a small group of powerful, wealthy people and doesn't reflect America or Americans as much as you think it does.

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:


"Oh please, get your hand off your heart and stop singing Star Spangled Banner for a moment."

To which I have a strong urge to tell you to go fuck yourself. So really, go fuck yourself. This is such an incredibly bitchy thing for you to say and I'm now frightening close to losing all respect for you.

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Originally posted by G:


I think it's hopeless trying to convince you of these things though. We had a similar dead end conversation concerning Zero Dark 30. You didn't think the movie went far enough, wasn't critical enough of US military, and I thought it actually did and did it very well. So yeah, we've had similar discussions.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Robin Williams has a series?! Where do I find it?? No, cancel that, I'll look it up...

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Mal4, I'm sorry, but I disagree. We've painted Kennedy with the Hero Brush, and he wasn't all that great in reality.

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Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Bullshit Magons. As I thoroughly explained above, you said a helluva lot more than an innocent: "I don't like Halloween". If you actually bothered to pull your head out and read posts responding to you, you would have noticed that a lot of people agreed to a large degree. My first responses to you were to acknowledge the many annoying aspects of it.

But that's not what you were after. You continued to bitch and moan and get personal and insulting, and I only cut you down after that singing the anthem bullshit you pulled.

I challenge you to find any direct quote from my posts that was anywhere close to blind patriotism. Go now and look.

Unless you're too busy fucking yourself. Which you should be.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Magons, I think the heat has ramped up to the point where nobody's hearing her, which is sad because I admire all of you greatly. As I said in my very first post, I don't think most Americans can actually hear what she's trying to say, but I also think there are some misconceptions on her part. I'm just sad it's gotten so heated.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm not sure Magons has ever shown "obvious dislike for most things US", but that's just my opinion.

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She's absolutely right. I repeat, again, it's not "Americans", but a small minority of moneyed, powerful individuals driving it, and given how much MOST of us here hate it, putting it on us is unfair.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
We'll have to agree to disagree. I've long respected you, I'm sad to see you so cemented in your opinion, but I will accept that it is so.

I will merely note that how and what you write absolutely epitomizes "Until the true allies are capable of putting their egos aside and *listening* to each other, the corporate fuckers will take advantage of us all."

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Okay, I read through the entire thread. My personal conclusion is that people aren't hearing each other, tempers have flared and there's quite enough unpleasantness on both "sides" to suffice. After reading it all, I think I know where things went wrong, so if anyone's interested, here's my analysis:

MOST people were actually listening to one another, and understanding, when this all started. Wish nailed some of what I feel, and some of what Magons has been trying to say, in my opinion:

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I firmly believe most Americans have NO CLUE how we are affecting the rest of the world.

I'm sure a lot of Christians would deny that they want the rest of the world doing their holidays, but I know that a lot would secretly revel in the "superiority" of it all. It makes me kind of sick that Americans ( and lets face it- companies EVERYWHERE LOOOOVE how commercialized we are) are soo inadvertently messing with others cultures…

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Personally, I think there are a lot of so-called "Christians" out there who already DO revel in the superiority of Christianity and would love for it to be universal, but that's another discussion.

The "revel in your cultural imperialism" was uncalled for, but given the personalities involved, not surprising. To say one ASSUMES "Magons is looking for people to acknowledge her cultural superiority" is about as asinine as Magons' statement, and every bit as much of a snark.

I didn't see anywhere Magons "(blamed) the excesses of her own people on America". I understand how what she wrote can be taken that way, but a number of us understood that's not what she was doing, Oonj got it exactly:

"People having fun is not the objection.
People adopting US customs in lieu of their own is felt as a loss.
Very upsetting when one loves-respects her own culture.
My refusal to hear-understand the hurt was like an insult."

And so did G:

"Her countrymen are proving to be just as weak and susceptible to million dollar marketing as ours have been. That has to be hard to take given country pride and obvious dislike for most things US."

I'm not sure Magons has ever shown "obvious dislike for most things US", but that's just my opinion.

Moving into psychoanalysis with "It's disingenuous at best. Denial and transference of guilt more likely" would be sufficient to make anyone's hackles go up, if they weren't already.

I then misunderstood something, which gave Byte the opportunity to take a swipe at Oonj and ream me (which still makes me laugh when Mal4 called it "only a little understandable bristling"), and the conversation got threadjacked into Byte going after me (despite my admitting I'd misunderstood and explaining why). During which time, I've refrained from mentioning until now, Byte TWICE wrote bald-faced lies about me, both of which she edited out when I called her on them. I'll probably get reamed for mentioning that, but it made an impression.

Skipping past all the ensuing bullshit, Magons came back and tried to explain:

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Inundation, some would say indoctrination with another's culture....24 hours of tv and films dominated by another culture along with sophisticated advertising changes the way people think. It changes their brains!!! That's what we have here. So produce our own, you say. Yeah we do. But market forces means that local productions can't compete with American imports. So there we have it. Local business cant compete with huge multinationals like KFC, MacDonalds, Cripsy Creme. pleased to say that Gloria Jean was a fizzer.

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

And by 'take responsibility' I was referring to what I perceived to be the rather strange response that America was in no way responsible for the economic, cultural and military power it weilds in the world.

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Wow, 150 posts in and you seem to understand even less - I guess my bad for trying.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Still? Guys, you've done nothing but repeat what you've said before, piling on when Magons merely responded to my post and has already said she's in the middle of something IRL and her reactions have been at least partly because of that. Can't we move on?

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