REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Pivatization failure: Home burns, owners charged nearly $20,000 for nothing

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, November 15, 2013 12:58
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Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:49 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

PHOENIX - A man's house burned to the ground, but that wasn't his only shock -- because two weeks later, he received a bill for almost $20,000 from the private fire department.

Purcell and his wife were not staying in the home when it caught fire in August. They arrived later, only to watch firefighters douse hot spots.

"It's definitely a shocker when you come back and your house is gone," said Purcell. But another perhaps bigger shocker was in the mail. Two weeks after the fire that gutted Purcell's home, he got a bill from Rural Metro Fire Department for $19,825.

"Definitely was a surprise.. was a shocker when we got that," said Purcell.

Purcell lives in an unincorporated area that has no fire coverage. Williams says the bill includes Surprise firefighters who were first on the scene.

Rural Metro spokesperson Colin Williams says that the fees are fair, that there is a mutual aid agreement with the Surprise Fire Department. We asked to look at the mutual aid agreement, but we're told there isn't one in writing.

"We do have what I call a gentleman's agreement," said Williams.

Surprise firefighters were on the scene within 13 minutes. It took Rural Metro 24 minutes to get there.

"They got here late and his house is totally gone. Then they're going to charge him $20,000. I don't think that's right at all," said Brian Repp who lives nearby.

Residents living in the area pay a fire district assistance tax. The name alone implies it goes towards fire service in their area, but it doesn't. It's a county-wide tax to help fund volunteer fire districts.

The people in Purcell's neighborhood have no fire coverage, but they say they didn't know that until after Purcell's house fire. "Coincidentally, we all received a bill from Rural Metro fire informing us we have no fire coverage in our area, so they highly suggested we begin paying some fire coverage that we didn't currently have," said Miller.

Thinking they were already paying for fire coverage, residents were skeptical that Rural Metro, who just filed for bankruptcy, was trying to make a buck marketing their fire subscription.

Admittedly, Rural Metro didn't market the subscription to Purcell's area until recently, because their closest fire station is 20 miles away. "It'd take a significant amount of time for us to respond to that area," said Williams.

Highlighted on the back of the subscription, it reads, "Response times will vary." So with the options for people living here are: buy a yearly subscription, which is around $500 from Rural Metro for a service that is 20 miles away or take their chances and get a huge bill if their home burns. A third option is to form their own fire district. It can take months and ultimately a board will decide if they'll contract out fire service or form a volunteer department.

Purcell had insurance on his home, but it doesn't cover the Rural Metro bill. Purcell says he would have gladly paid a yearly subscription fee had he known that was an option. With a newborn baby, the couple doesn't know where they're going to get the money from. Rural Metro does have payment plans, but says it doesn't give people the option to let their home burn. http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/23888502/2013/11/05/man-gets-20k-bil
l-from-rural-metro



Ain't privatization great? Thanks to the fire, and the charges from Rural Metro, the family may wind up having to rely on public assistance to get by. This situation is a classic libertarian fail. Residents of the area where the Purcells live believed they had fire coverage due to the tax they pay. It seems that no one was told that part of the fire services for the area had been contracted to a private company. Thanks to this move, taxpayers may wind up paying to help support Justin and Kasia Purcell and their child. If this turns out to be the case, that cost will certainly be more than what it would have cost the public to provide adequate fire protection for all citizens. When the profit motive is applied to things like prisons, police forces, and fire departments, citizens will pay in more ways than one.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2013 2:36 AM

ELVISCHRIST





Libertarianism!

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Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:03 AM

DEVERSE

Hey, Ive been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire. Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.


So,this morning after you go to work I show up and paint your house - and maybe don't do a good job of it. Are you obligated to pay the bill I send you?

The story doesn't say who called the fire department, but from how it reads I would suggest Mr.Purcell wasn't the one who called them (it says they were not home and arrived to find the house on fire and the dept there), nor did he give permission for the private company to enter his property and perform a service.

If it were me, the first thing I would be doing is calling the police and having Rural Metro charged with trespass - they had no right to enter the property.
The next thing I would be doing is getting a lawyer and filing a lawsuit against Rural Metro for damages. They created a contract by responding and have an obligation to perform a reasonable service as a (self proclaimed) professional. What they did do was entirely unreasonable given the response time and what they achieved.
The last thing I would do is tell Rural Metro to go ahead and sue me for their money. Its going to cost them a lot more than the $20K bill to get their 20K and Rural Metro really can't afford to do it.

Rural Metro lasted about a year in a rural area here where I live because no one bought their "service" and while they did respond to a few fires, few paid them because no contract was made. They are a private company with no more authority than any other private company and by responding without a contract of some form they were seen as doing the owner a favor, not providing a service for a fee.


Oh let the sun beat down upon my face;
With stars to fill my dream;
I am a traveler of both time and space;
To be where I have been

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Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:32 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
This situation is a classic libertarian fail.



How so?

As noted, the government apparently contracted this service for the citizens without the citizens' consent, or even knowledge. Since one of the cornerstones of Libertarianism is voluntary association, how can this involuntary, uninformed, shanghaiing of folks into a plan that apparently commits them to costs they know nothing about be classified, even in the most uninformed mind, as Libertarian?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Ain't privatization great?



Yes. It is. Despite the outlier of an example you give here, trying to paint an extremely distorted picture.

Per your usual.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 14, 2013 2:28 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, from what I got out of the article, and the others I read on it, the citizens just ASSUMED, since they pay a tax, that it covered fires. They weren't home, so no doubt they didn't call the private fire company, and from what I read, the volunteer fire department was there first and did what they could, the company arrived after the house was gone. They're getting charged, it would appear, for "cleanup".

It's an "unincorporated area"--I lived in one of those (Cupertino, before Apple came along and it got "city" status). No "city" covered anything for us, police, fire, etc., were covered by the county. I don't know how it is now, or in that place, but it is a very confusing "jurisdiction" type to live in.

As to it being just an "outlier" and not relevant, that's bullshit.
Quote:

Last week, an accident inside Gene Cranick's Obion, TN home started a fire. As the fire quickly spread throughout the house, the Cranicks escaped from their home and called their fire department. Yet the local firefighters, operating under the auspices of the South Fulton Fire Department (SFFD), refused to respond to the call, noting that their service was available to the rural residents of Obion County only by subscription, and the Cranicks had not paid the annual $75 fee. When the fire spread to the surrounding properties, the neighbors -- who had paid the fee -- called the firefighters. And so, the firefighters arrived on the scene, but they stood by and watched as the Cranick residence burned to the ground, refusing to assist the pleading family -- which offered to pay them anything on the spot to help. Even though most of the country was outraged by the case of the Cranicks, leading conservatives in the media immediately jumped at the chance to defend the actions of the SFFD and condemn the family in question. The story of Gene Cranick's home illustrates the ascendancy of a compassion-less conservative philosophy that believes in the on-your-own society and has virtually abandoned the common-good creed that we are our brothers keepers. https://www.facebook.com/notes/national-committee-to-preserve-social-s
ecurity-and-medicare/heres-a-terrifying-example-of-why-privatization-is-not-the-answernot-just-for-so/439936142220
]


So they didn't pay the fee. You can argue that (it's still stupid), but as more and more things become privatized, how about those of us who can't AFFORD the "fees"?
Quote:

As fire danger climbs here in the West, fire protection is gradually being added to the list of essential services for which the rich are better off than their less fortunate neighbors. It’s a list that already includes better healthcare for those with costly medical insurance; better education for those who can afford expensive private schools; greater personal safety for wealthy residents able to fund private security patrols.

Privatization of fire protection, especially in the Western United States, has emerged in several forms. In some instances, private contractors are hired by state and local government to deal with extreme fire emergencies. The National Wildfire Suppression Association, formed in 1991, represents over 150 private firms that employ firefighters and equipment to assist locally on an “as needed’’ basis.

Quite a different form of private fire protection is being funded by large insurance companies. Last year, Chubb Corp. began offering fire protection to its clients in 13 Western states as long as their homes have a replacement value of at least $1 million. According to an Associated Press report, Fireman’s Fund has retained private fire fighting companies in California; AIG employs private firms to dispense fire-retardant foam on valuable homes as soon as there is a wildfire threat for clients in the 200 wealthiest Western zip codes.

Yet another, more socially vexing concept is the one designed by companies such as Golden Valley Fire Suppression, based in Carmel Valley, Calif. Next month the firm will begin selling private fire services directly to property owners in areas already served by municipal fire departments. For a fee of $30,000, the company will supply fire protection for as long as the customer owns the home. It plans to station its own fire trucks in carefully chosen “clusters’’ near paying customers in order to guarantee a response time of under five minutes. Golden Valley intends to launch similar operations in Las Vegas and Tucson.

It’s hard to fault wealthy homeowners for seeking additional protection for valuable property, especially after several years of devastating wildfires in California. A turning point for many came in October 2007 when fire destroyed over 375 homes near San Diego in an area where local fire protection was inadequate.

On the other hand, an increasing role for private firms in basic safety services such as fire and police protection prompts concern over training procedures, reliability, and accountability. Moreover, privatization can lead to a spiral in which reduced public services cause increased private involvement, which, in turn, leads to even more cuts in public funding.

What happens to those residents in areas served by Golden Valley who decline to purchase the high-priced private fire protection? As private service expands, publicly funded fire service is likely to become even less reliable. Municipalities are less likely to fund additional fire protection in areas where it is largely handled by the private sector. http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009
/06/30/privatizing_fire_protection/
]


Privatization of fire departments is becoming a real issue, one the average citizen should be interested in. Fire departments certainly are:
Quote:

Privatization push: Can fire departments survive?

There's a big move to privatize not just EMS service delivery but fire departments as well http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-ems/articles/1045264-Privatization-pus
h-Can-fire-departments-survive/
]


It's not just fire departments, and you know it. Privatization is taking over in many ways, and none of them have been proven "good" yet:

Privatization of prisons has been in the news a lot:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/nyregion/in-new-jersey-halfway-house
s-escapees-stream-out-as-a-penal-business-thrives.html?_r=2


About which:
Quote:

Despite many promises that prison privatization will lead to big cost savings, such savings — as a comprehensive study by the Bureau of Justice Assistance, part of the U.S. Department of Justice, concluded — “have simply not materialized.” To the extent that private prison operators do manage to save money, they do so through “reductions in staffing patterns, fringe benefits, and other labor-related costs.”

Privatization is a way of getting rid of public employees, who do have a habit of unionizing and tend to lean Democratic in any case. But the main answer, surely, is to follow the money. As more and more government functions get privatized, states become pay-to-play paradises, in which both political contributions and contracts for friends and relatives become a quid pro quo for getting government business. Are the corporations capturing the politicians, or the politicians capturing the corporations? Does it matter?

Now, someone will surely point out that nonprivatized government has its own problems of undue influence, that prison guards and teachers’ unions also have political clout, and this clout sometimes distorts public policy. Fair enough. But such influence tends to be relatively transparent. Everyone knows about those arguably excessive public pensions; it took an investigation by The Times over several months to bring the account of New Jersey’s halfway-house-hell to light.

The point, then, is that you shouldn’t imagine that what The Times discovered about prison privatization in New Jersey is an isolated instance of bad behavior. It is, instead, almost surely a glimpse of a pervasive and growing reality, of a corrupt nexus of privatization and patronage that is undermining government across much of our nation. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/opinion/krugman-prisons-privatizatio
n-patronage.html#h
]


Privatization of Schools has caused a lot of problems:
http://users.drew.edu/pmcguinn/publications/Teachers%20College%20Artic
le%20PDF.pdf


http://ncspe.org/publications_files/OP141.pdf

About which:
Quote:

Since any full-fledged, free-market privatization program with full transparency, such as the universal vouchers Friedman championed, is politically unrealistic today, current efforts towards privatization of our schools have instead resulted in a monstrously distorted market much like our dysfunctional health care system. Free market competition sounds neat, but adding another layer of rent-seeking in our education system does not. Large corporations already exert an inordinate influence on our political system before and after Citizens United, and any privatization scheme now would expose the education system further to their machinations. The American people are already saddled with military-industrial and prison-industrial complexes. Creating another one, the education-industrial complex (which some authors argue is already happening), does a great disservice to the nation and especially the young among us.

The call to privatize schools, along with the efforts across the country to render aspects of public education into private hands, is a symptom of governments' and parents' desire to escape from the current dilemma, to find a “savior” from outside instead of facing problems head-on and taking responsibility. http://www.policymic.com/articles/53485/privatize-schools-why-it-s-cro
ny-capitalism-at-its-worst
]


Privatization of water???
http://www.citizen.org/documents/Top10-ReasonsToOpposeWaterPrivatizati
on.pdf


Hell, even your PrisonPlanet is against that one!

"Nestle Wants Water Privatized, Previously Drained Millions of Gallons of Water from Arkansas Rivers", http://www.prisonplanet.com/nestle-wants-water-privatized-previously-d
rained-millions-of-gallons-of-water-from-arkansas-rivers.html


Do I even need to give you links to THAT being a bad idea??


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Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:22 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Okay, from what I got out of the article, and the others I read on it, the citizens just ASSUMED, since they pay a tax, that it covered fires.



Interesting that you don't consider this a failure of their government, and instead try to blame Libertarianism, despite the fact that the acts that put citizens in the position of being billed for services they did not contract for, and in fact didn't even know they had been required to pay for, were imposed on them by local government.

Maybe if the government had been honest with the citizens about their options for fire protection they would have developed a better method of providing such coverage. Their government did not, leaving them with both no effective fire protection, and bills for useless response.

You'd probably find more substantive reason for outrage if you looked into financial links between government officials and the private fire company.

But that's not your agenda.




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, November 15, 2013 9:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nope, I'm quite clear that the collusion between government and private industry IS the problem, but I'm dealing with reality, not some libertarian's wet dream. We will always have government, so what happens to us will always be government and private industry. To put them in bed together even MORE than they are now, by having government take money from us and just give it to private industry, without at least the amount of transparency we have with the government being directly responsible, is foolish beyond belief, and I've provided quite sufficient information to prove my point.

My "agenda" is "make it better, not worse", and thus far, privatization has for the most part made things WORSE in the areas I've highlighted. Keep up those stupid snarks, they make you look stupid every time. They also only serve to further emphasize your own bias.


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Friday, November 15, 2013 9:32 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Nope, I'm quite clear that the collusion between government and private industry IS the problem, but I'm dealing with reality, not some libertarian's wet dream.



So why'd you bring Libertarianism into it, if you knew it was actually crony capitalism instead?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, November 15, 2013 9:47 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Silly question: don't governments turn to privatization because they can't make x service work?



The most common rationales I've seen for privatization are that it frees the government from the hassles of providing retirement and health benefits to employees, that it works better in a shifting workload situation because government employees are notoriously hard to let go due to union pressure, and that it can bring specialist knowledge to bear faster than the notoriously slow government hiring process.

Some of the obstacles to this are the cronyism between government officials and businesses, rules that require hiring companies because of some perceived social support need (handicapped owned, minority owned, etc.) when they may not otherwise be the best fit, and contracting rules that do not require contractors to meet performance or time goals under threat of penalty.

In my years working in government IT, I've seen contractors who did good jobs, delivered good products on time, and were worth their money. I've seen others who couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag without extended delivery dates and more resources.

Like pretty much everything else, privatization done right works for all concerned. Done wrong, you get the result shown in the original post.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, November 15, 2013 12:58 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


G, the problem is that what Geezer didn't mention about why privatization is on the rise is that governments are turning to privatization "because they can't AFFORD x service" without raising taxes; their funding has been drastically cut, at a time of economic disaster when tax revenues are also the lowest they've gotten in ages. Their funds have been cut, again and again and again, by the Republicans who WANT them to turn to privatization. It's a "perfect storm" "vicious cycle" whereby the vast majority of us are getting left out in the cold more and more, and it will get a whole lot worse before it gets better.

"The cash-strapped state of Michigan is looking to save money any way it can, and some political leaders have suggested essentially privatizing the state's flagship university." Cash-Strapped State Schools Being Forced to Privatize, http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1893286,00.html#i
xzz2kjjiz1fB


"Budget cuts proposed last year by Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) forced cities and towns across Ohio to layoff public safety officials and close fire stations. This year, cuts in Kasich’s budget are again causing ripple effects in the area of public safety — this time by forcing one town near Cincinnati to choose between raising taxes or privatizing its fire and EMS services." Ohio Governor’s Budget Could Force Local Town To Privatize Fire And EMS Services, http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/03/22/450114/kasich-budget-priva
tize-fire
/

"Governor Jindal’s budget plan for the year cut $780.6 million from funding for hospitals, currently under the administration of Louisiana State University (LSU). The cut effectively forces the facilities into privatization or closure." Nine of Louisiana’s ten public hospitals to be privatized, http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/05/30/loui-m30.html?view=print

"Mayor Villaraigosa announced his intent to lease the city's parking meters and garages to temporarily plug the city's budget hole". Mayor’s “Online Budget Challenge” Forces Players to Pick Privatized Parking, http://la.streetsblog.org/2010/01/14/mayors-online-budget-challenge-fo
rces-players-to-pick-privatized-parking
/

"After cuts in state aid and uncertainty about future funding, the Foley City Council decided to contract with General Security Services Corp. to provide 24-hour coverage starting in January." Minn. town to replace police with private security force, http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-11-14/police-pri
vate-security-foley/51194090/1


Republicans have been trying to privatize everything they can for decades--you may remember the ongoing effort to privatize Social Security. The economic disaster that was George Bush has given them a tool they never had before, and they've been running with it ever since.

I call it libertarian because the libertarian cry of today is "Privatize!":
Quote:

Libertarians, in calling for the abolition of state property and services, typically call for a process of "privatization" that relies heavily on the corporate capitalist model of ownership. The property of the State should be auctioned off and its services performed by, say, GiantGlobalCorp LLC. And the picture of the future market economy, so far as business enterprise is concerned, is simply the present corporate economy minus the regulatory and welfare state--an idealized version of Nineteenth Century "robber baron capitalism." That ignores the issue of state capitalism, of the extent to which the giant corporations that have received the lion's share of their profits from the State can be regarded either as legitimate private property.


You can disagree with that interpretation, but that's how I see those in politics espousing "libertarianism" as being today. In a smaller society, libertarianism has many things in its favor; in a society as huge as ours, it's not workable. But today's "libertarians" don't WANT it to work; they want to increase profits for the capitalists and everyone else can just fall by the wayside. There's a lot more that goes into it, but I’m going to try not to get into all of the complexities of that discussion.

In fairness, I should have put "libertarian" in quotes, because I see those today who, in politics especially, call themselves "libertarians" about the same as many who call themselves "Christians" in today's society: in other words, as using the title, not living it. Rand Paul is a prime example.

As to Geezer, he has snarked me steadily for as long as I can remember; if you've missed that, he's either been somewhat more circumspect in his personal attacks recently, or limited them to an incessant accusations that I put up nothing but "left-wing screed"--totally ignoring that Jongs and Rap do the same, to a much more vicious extent. At the same time Geezer consistently claims he is neither right nor left, tho' his right-wing slant is obvious to all. I respect him to the extent that I do not lump him with them, or the less intelligent/coherent of their buddies like zit and wulf, but I flatly reject his claims of non-partisanship and treat him the same way he treats me.

Regarding privatization, I offer this to dispel some of the myths: http://www.inthepublicinterest.org/node/457


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