Christian Movement Says Husbands NEED To Keep Their Wives In Line by Niki2

Most of the strict stuff about food is due to poorly understood health concerns related to said food. And the stuff about clothing is related to not mistaking one group of people for another group of people you might be at war with. Strict codes about relationships and reproduction were due to survival mode in a resource poor desert.

These are all moot points nowadays.

Interestingly, Christians actually were fairly pro-women early on. It was a better option for Roman women to secretly practice Christianity as they could participate, passages barring women from entering churches were surely introduced later. Though Saint Peter really was a misogynist.

Also most Christian European countries had rules that a fetus wasn't a human until the quickening, just for the convenience of impoverished families already unable to feed the mouths they had. It wasn't until the 1700 and 1800s that health care was modernized, doctors rediscovered the hippocratic oath which forbade remedies to pregnant women, and the rest is history.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 27, 2013 6:37 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thanx, KPO and Byte, those were interesting and informative. I didn't know some of that, tho' I knew about the old and new testament stuff. The reasoning behind discounting the old testament seems very convenient, to me, but the reasoning behind food (which I knew) and clothing (which I didn't) and such makes more sense. It's too bad people so immersed in their beliefs can't use common sense at the same time, but then one of the basic INTENTIONS of most religion is to do people's thinking FOR them, which is the basis of power, and so it goes.

And thank you, Magons; that was wonderful. Seen its equivalent many times, and it always makes me smile.

I think I'll let Thomas Jefferson speak for me when it comes to ALL "religions": "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half of the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

Rap is just repeating his same idiotic tripe, so no response is necessary. As is Geezer; my issue with his remark was his claim that I "troll" certain cites; I've proven my point.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

I think I'll let Thomas Jefferson speak for me when it comes to ALL "religions": "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half of the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

Rap is just repeating his same idiotic tripe, so no response is necessary.

Jefferson had some unkind things to say about Muslims, Niki.

And as for my 'idiotic tripe', I don't blame you for not responding. You can't, and still have a shred of honesty about you.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Face it Niki, you give a pass at Islam for what you attack " The Church " of doing, when Islam does it on a far grander scale.

One would ask you to provide an example of when she has given Islam as "pass" for such things - but then, we know better then to expect a modicum of honesty from a trolling little zealot douche like yourself.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 27, 2013 4:24 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

I think I'll let Thomas Jefferson speak for me when it comes to ALL "religions": "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half of the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

Jefferson had some unkind things to say about Muslims, Niki.

Jefferson also had some funny ideas about slavery and whoremongering. He really knew how to keep his black property folk on his plantation, just like today's Democrats do. Maybe Niki knows how many bastard children he populated Virginia and France with.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 28, 2013 5:39 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Story, don't bother. We all know Rap's methodology, and it's not worth addressing his silliness. What Jefferson had to say about Islam/Muslims is totally irrelevant, aside from it being very amusing that I wrote that what Jefferson said pretty much reflects what I feel about ALL RELIGIONS. That includes Islam, which Rap is apparently incapable of realizing.

It's just silliness, and all part of Rap/Jong/Geez's desperate need to find SOMETHING nasty they can say back to me. Keeps 'em busy, I guess...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 28, 2013 5:15 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I think I'll let Thomas Jefferson speak for me when it comes to ALL "religions": "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half of the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

Questionable quote, per Monticello.

http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/superstition-christianity-quo
tation

Quote:
As is Geezer; my issue with his remark was his claim that I "troll" certain cites; I've proven my point.

Troll as in fish for. The number of times you cite such sites makes it pretty self-evident you look at them on a consistent basis trying to net stuff critical of conservatives.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 28, 2013 5:25 PM

It's hardly a sin though, considering the amount of bias in MSM such as Fox, that someone would want to look elsewhere for a bit of balance.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 28, 2013 5:41 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

This...

or this...?

OK Al you win...

As you can see da married womens know their place and do whatever piratenews asks them to!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 28, 2013 8:52 PM

in your fantasy, matey

thanks for posting the ads, reminds us of how shit the past was

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 29, 2013 1:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

Christians are less inconsistent than you think. The rule, at least in the Christian circle I used to be associated with, is that all the severe and stringent rules in the OLD testament can (and should be) ignored. That's new testament theology as laid out by Saint Paul: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant_Theology

I can look up some bible verses if you want, but it's basically stating that since the death of Jesus people can be reconciled to God by the fact that their sin has been paid for, and so they don't have to live their lives by all the strict OT regulations.

But the definition of sin has not changed, so things like the Ten Commandments are still somewhat relevant. So too, arguably, are passages where homosexuality is described as an 'abomination' - God's not likely to have changed his mind on that. Keep in mind that the OT is still the word of God, it's just been superseded by the NT.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Sorry KPO, this does nothing to demonstrate consistent thinking. You cannot speak for all Christians, any more than the Christians who call for wife abuse at the beginning of this thread. That is because people who call themselves Christians believe a variety of things, and argue amongst sects on many aspects of interpretation, not to mention the following:

the virginity of Mary
whether the Eucharist is symbolic, or the wine really does turn to blood and the bread to flesh (as I was taught)

Even saying the Ten Commandments are law and unchanging, but most of the rest of the OT is not law is inconsistent.

And the issue really comes down to the fact that texts were written thousands of years ago by men who were products of their time and were writing wisdoms and laws applicable thousands of years ago. So some of the writing feels relevant for todays world, and some of it does not. What it clearly isn't, some divinely inspired text.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:27 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
And the issue really comes down to the fact that texts were written thousands of years ago by men who were products of their time and were writing wisdoms and laws applicable thousands of years ago. So some of the writing feels relevant for todays world, and some of it does not. What it clearly isn't, some divinely inspired text.

I agree. In my opinion, MEN wrote virtually every religious text, ergo there is an inherent bias in every one. A human bias and a male bias both.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 11:24 AM

JENJEN374

Just stumbled on this site while researching surving a "Christian" mentally abusive rrelationship and turns out that I love Firefly too. Any I don't know how these discussion bforums work....I do see that this happened over six months ago. But I wanted to say thanks for starting this topic and to the majority of the people who shared their thoughts and wisdom. Won't bore you all with the details but I married into a very strict Nazarene family and was belittled and controlled (from the food I ate, the clothes I wore, to what I was allowed to think) for five years before I got out. Religion was an easy way to control someone who grew up a minister's daughter. Though I was never spanked, there are many ways "to put a woman in her place". I left 16 yrs ago with my 5yr old son and despite being in a healthy relationship now, I still have moments that creep up on me from the past...moments when I realize I'm not as cured as I think of it. Today was one of those times and honestly reading this thread helped me more than any others. So thank you all so much for sharing :-)

Jenjen

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 11:52 AM

I'm glad you got out. Thanks for sharing with us.

Feel free to participate wherever, though it gets a little rough in the politics section. If you love Firefly, though, the general boards are full of people who will pour over all 14 episodes endlessly looking for new takes, insights, or ideas. A show like Firefly about independence and free-spirits among both men and women is just what many of us need to see.

Also, you're not alone. I've known other women who were brought up in environments where religion was used to abuse and force conformity. They have broken free and are smart and happy and self-confident. They found both self-sufficiency and acceptance. Keep up the good fight.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:58 PM

Yep....

"Christian Movement Says Husbands NEED To Keep Their Wives In Line"

The headline of this Enquirer magazine swore to tell you the truth about the Obama's Secret Lives.

I know you're afraid of the real media today Niki, but you seriously could do better than quoting a highschool book report from Salem.

Love ya girl,
6

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 1:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Yep....

"Christian Movement Says Husbands NEED To Keep Their Wives In Line"

The headline of this Enquirer magazine swore to tell you the truth about the Obama's Secret Lives.

I know you're afraid of the real media today Niki, but you seriously could do better than quoting a highschool book report from Salem.

Love ya girl,
6

Seek help, nutjob.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 1:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by JENJEN374:
Just stumbled on this site while researching surving a "Christian" mentally abusive rrelationship and turns out that I love Firefly too. Any I don't know how these discussion bforums work....I do see that this happened over six months ago. But I wanted to say thanks for starting this topic and to the majority of the people who shared their thoughts and wisdom. Won't bore you all with the details but I married into a very strict Nazarene family and was belittled and controlled (from the food I ate, the clothes I wore, to what I was allowed to think) for five years before I got out. Religion was an easy way to control someone who grew up a minister's daughter. Though I was never spanked, there are many ways "to put a woman in her place". I left 16 yrs ago with my 5yr old son and despite being in a healthy relationship now, I still have moments that creep up on me from the past...moments when I realize I'm not as cured as I think of it. Today was one of those times and honestly reading this thread helped me more than any others. So thank you all so much for sharing :-)

Jenjen

You are most welcome - there's a lot of similar discussions about when religion crosses the line into abuse, and even abuses against religion by government, such as what happened with that whole Mormon vs Baptist fight in Texas a while back, as the Baptists subverted local Govt into an attack on the civil rights of a Mormon community...
If you're unsucessful archive-dredging you can always ask, also.

Mind you, better get your armor plate out, as is this is an unmoderated, free for all, anything goes kind of forum, and many of the local denizens (myself included at times) are not the nicest of people, no.

That said, human/civil rights, personhood, and how societies, governments and religions often conspire to subvert or deprive them is a pet peeve of mine and a topic I know a whole damn lot about, and one reason I expound at length on such topics usually (and often to the annoyance of some) is for the exact reason what transpired here, that someone "outside" the forum might stumble upon it and find it useful, even if they never make this known.

Anyhows, welcome to our little pirahna infested wading pool.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 2:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JENJEN374:
Just stumbled on this site while researching surving a "Christian" mentally abusive rrelationship and turns out that I love Firefly too. Any I don't know how these discussion bforums work....I do see that this happened over six months ago. But I wanted to say thanks for starting this topic and to the majority of the people who shared their thoughts and wisdom. Won't bore you all with the details but I married into a very strict Nazarene family and was belittled and controlled (from the food I ate, the clothes I wore, to what I was allowed to think) for five years before I got out. Religion was an easy way to control someone who grew up a minister's daughter. Though I was never spanked, there are many ways "to put a woman in her place". I left 16 yrs ago with my 5yr old son and despite being in a healthy relationship now, I still have moments that creep up on me from the past...moments when I realize I'm not as cured as I think of it. Today was one of those times and honestly reading this thread helped me more than any others. So thank you all so much for sharing :-)

"Sister" you don't know the half of it :)

It's very safe to assume that your position and mine had very little in common to bring us here.

Sometimes recurring dreams about not being able to help my mother outside of a 911 call when a guy I looked up to was choking her in the hallway.

This is the best version of one of the best songs released since 2000 though....

I know it's a remake.

Fuck You.

And Enjoy!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 2:22 PM

To Storymark.....

I will or I won't. Fuck you.

And good luck to ya ;)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 3:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
To Storymark.....

I will or I won't. Fuck you.

And good luck to ya ;)

Im guessing you won't, and will continue to be a drunk pathetic loser who's only pleasure seems to be making sad verbal attacks on what he himself has termed "an old woman."

I'd say "fuck you" back - but you are clearly totally fucked already.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 3:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JENJEN374:
Just stumbled on this site while researching surving a "Christian" mentally abusive rrelationship and turns out that I love Firefly too. Any I don't know how these discussion bforums work....I do see that this happened over six months ago. But I wanted to say thanks for starting this topic and to the majority of the people who shared their thoughts and wisdom. Won't bore you all with the details but I married into a very strict Nazarene family and was belittled and controlled (from the food I ate, the clothes I wore, to what I was allowed to think) for five years before I got out. Religion was an easy way to control someone who grew up a minister's daughter. Though I was never spanked, there are many ways "to put a woman in her place". I left 16 yrs ago with my 5yr old son and despite being in a healthy relationship now, I still have moments that creep up on me from the past...moments when I realize I'm not as cured as I think of it. Today was one of those times and honestly reading this thread helped me more than any others. So thank you all so much for sharing :-)

Jenjen

Well done to you, Jenjen.

Yes, the past has a way of creeping up on you, just when you think you are over it, as well.

My advice is dont let it creep up on you, stare it down - and then it seems to lose its potency.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 19, 2014 4:45 PM

Jen: and here we have case in point for the sniping and attacking that goes on around here. Which is guess is the best example we can probably give you about whether you want to potentially expose yourself to that.

Jack: I know I'm a pathetic troll and all, but seriously. Please don't harsh on someone who made themselves emotionally vulnerable. It took a lot of guts for them to say what they did, and you may have just slapped them in the face for it. That can be psychologically devastating and it's just kind of a terrible thing to do.

Storymark: Jack's drunk, the emotional vulnerability thing I just said applies to him too.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:23 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow, Jenjen, I stand in awe of your courage...and all I can think of is "what a lucky boy, to have a mother who went through all that and got both of them out". Just think of the magnificent gift you gave him, in so many ways; from how his life changed to what kind of person he had a chance to grow up into!

I'm so thrilled to hear you have someone who loves you and respects you now, it makes everything right...hopefully the reminders of the past will get fewer and fewer as time goes on, which would be the final "rightness".

You GO girl!!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 21, 2014 1:15 PM

It was brave, and should be applauded.

This summer, I attended my cousin's wedding. During the ceremony, the pastor took about 5 minutes to defend this mentality - to explain to us all why it really is best for the man to dominate, and the woman to be submissive to him. It turned my stomach. All I wanted to do was grab my cousin and drag her out of there. Problem being - I do think she married a great guy - I just wish they didn't believe such nonsense.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 21, 2014 3:31 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

((((shudder))))

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 22, 2014 11:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
It was brave, and should be applauded.

This summer, I attended my cousin's wedding. During the ceremony, the pastor took about 5 minutes to defend this mentality - to explain to us all why it really is best for the man to dominate, and the woman to be submissive to him. It turned my stomach. All I wanted to do was grab my cousin and drag her out of there. Problem being - I do think she married a great guy - I just wish they didn't believe such nonsense.

The Queen Bee calls the shots. Sure, among the majestic Gazelles, only the Alpha Male gets the best breeder and his choice of others when he decides. The only reason she doesn't stop him right then and there is the instinctual instinct towards the Herd. "If I'm the so-called Matriarch of this club, then who am I to tell my husband not to breed strong and smart young boys and girls who will be loyal to the clan and its future?"

As for humans.....

This isn't some "Christian Movement" saying this now.

This is how it's always been in Christianity, duh!

There were no witches in Salem. There were about 10 sexy young late teenage girls who probably got together regularly after one night of underage boozing and talking about which boys and men would do whatever they said, given the right stimulus. Those "witches" wouldn't have been burned if the married women of Salem didn't have such control over the men.

Honestly, I'd LOVE for the Witches to be in power, and every year older I get I wish it would happen more.

The only reason that these "witches" aren't in power is because old married women and/or ugly women ruin the fantasy for everyone because they are the majority.

Marriage ruins sex. Period.

I envision a world where 90% of the decent to good looking men are controlled by 10% of the most beautiful women in the world. All of the uggos can have sex all they want, but they get a $20k tax-credit for tying their tubes. Between VERY selective physical procreation and some Brave New Worldesque molding of the 99%, it shouldn't take more than two or three generations time before every male and female are born as near-perfect physical specimens and a large percentage of any discontent is eliminated.

That original Twilight Zone episode wasn't a cautionary tale. It was the blueprint to a perfect America.

Haha... not that one...

This one.....

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 22, 2014 11:24 PM

Oh gawd. Whenever I hear someone describing humans in terms of alpha and beta, I have traumatic flashbacks.

Whyyyyyy

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 23, 2014 3:05 AM

Six really has this hatred thing for older women going on....

PSssst. It's about your mother, Six.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 23, 2014 4:01 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Six really has this hatred thing for older women going on....

PSssst. It's about your mother, Six.

Bwaha! That was beautiful. Thanks for the giggle, Magonsdaughter.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 23, 2014 5:52 PM

OONJERAH

Y'All have a stronger stomach than me. I stopped reading Six long ago.

====================== :>

All I suggest is a man/boy hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
(Also applies to Silly women, BTW.)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:07 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Face it Niki, you give a pass at Islam for what you attack " The Church " of doing, when Islam does it on a far grander scale.

One would ask you to provide an example of when she has given Islam as "pass" for such things - but then, we know better then to expect a modicum of honesty from a trolling little zealot douche like yourself.

See thread title, and who started it.

Game. Set. Match.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:38 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Six really has this hatred thing for older women going on....

No Magons, Jacks real problem is a little something better known as never-my-fault.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverMyFault

Cause heaven forfend he actually stand up and own his own behavior, admit that his life is a pestilent shithole cause of the choices he made which resulted in exactly that, oh no...

So, of course, someone ELSE is always to blame.
And of course, the policies they fervently support have NOTHING to do with how fucked over they are, sure....

Oh of course not, it's all SOMEONE ELSES fault, riiiiight.

But the unholy truth they just can't face is that the blame really lies as close as the nearest mirror.

He chose this path, and now he wants to squeazel out of the resultant impact because of the typical moral cowardice of those who cannot accept anything even remotely resembling consequences....

And I feel no particular need to play into his bullshit here.

YOUR choices, YOUR fault, Jack.
Save your gutless excuses for someone dumb enough to buy em.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Face it Niki, you give a pass at Islam for what you attack " The Church " of doing, when Islam does it on a far grander scale.

One would ask you to provide an example of when she has given Islam as "pass" for such things - but then, we know better then to expect a modicum of honesty from a trolling little zealot douche like yourself.

See thread title, and who started it.

Game. Set. Match.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

Right, I forgot, my mistake - you really are so fucking dumb that you think criticizing anything about Christianity is praising Islam.

I should have remembered what a simpleton I was dealing with when I asked you to provide an actual example - you're incapable of doing anything that resembles being honest.

So, go back to your game, child, and the grown ups will get back to ignoring your ignorant ass.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:40 AM

REAVERFAN

Sometimes, I really like this forum. :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:57 AM