REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Actual cause of climate change discovered, And MORE!

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:34
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Monday, February 24, 2014 1:20 PM

CHRISISALL


http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jun/26earth.htm

Quote:

Remember preening over all that stuff about how we earthlings were part of this magnificent galaxy called the Milky Way?

Brace yourself for a shock, bring out those handkerchiefs while wailing violins build to a crescendo around you: The earth is actually part of a formation called the Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy; an entity so small -- in the larger scheme of the cosmos -- that it got swallowed up by the Milky Way.

Media reports cite a major project headed by University of Massachusetts astronomers in the United States that prove the Milky Way is gobbling up a smaller, neighboring galaxy in what reports, tongue in cheek, refer to as ongoing galactic cannibalism.

The study, published in the Astrophysical Journal, demonstrates how the debris from the Sagittarius galaxy, which is 10,000 times smaller in total mass than the Milky Way, is getting consumed by the latter.

The Sagittarius galaxy had itself been discovered by a team of British astronomers in 1994; the latest study, relying heavily on infrared maps of the universe to strip away millions of foreground stars and home in on Sagittarius, demonstrates how the latter has been pulled into the Milky Way's area of cosmic influence.

'We sifted several thousand interesting stars from a catalog of half a billion,' co-author Michael Skrutskie, a University of Virginia and principal investigator for the 2MASS project. 'By tuning our maps of the sky to the 'right' kind of star, the Sagittarius system jumped into view.'

Astronomers have been puzzling over the fact that from our point of view, the Milky Way is seen at an angle. Had the sun been part of this galaxy, it would have been oriented to the Milky Way's own path, and the planets including Earth would have been oriented around the sun in the same way as the sun aligns with the Milky Way.

The fact that the Milky Way is at an odd angle in our sky first suggested, researchers say, that the Sun is influenced by some other system.

That system has now been identified.

Scientists now say that over a period of two billion years, the Sagittarius galaxy has been dying as an entity, with the Milky Way meticulously consuming its bulk.

'After slow, continuous gnawing by the Milky Way, Sagittarius has been whittled down to the point that it cannot hold itself together much longer,' team member study co-author Martin Weinberg of the University of Massachusetts is quoted as saying. 'We are seeing Sagittarius at the very end of its life as an intact system.'

So what does any of this have to do with us?

The simple answer, in two words, is: Global warming.

Scientists postulate that as the Sun and its attendant satellites, including Earth, get consumed by the Milky Way, the higher energy levels in this much larger galaxy will cause the Sun to burn hotter, and to emit higher energy.

This, scientists say, is one reason temperatures have been rising steadily in all plants in our solar system.

Things are going to get considerably hotter all round.

As the consumption of Sagittarius by the Milky Way continues, further changes are being spotted, and monitored, in our own planetary system: Dark spots appearing, and growing, on Pluto; auroras being reported on Saturn; the polar shifts in Uranus and Neptune; the doubling of the intensity of the magnetic field on Jupiter.

Change is constantly, continuously, happening on the Sun, and the planets, thanks to this forced galactic marriage of Sagittarius with the much larger Milky Way -- and scientists are, thanks to this discovery, only now beginning to quantify this change, and its implications for all of us.

Time, meanwhile, for us to get used to our status as adoptive children of the Milky Way, rather than its own natural scions.


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Monday, February 24, 2014 1:26 PM

BYTEMITE


...I honestly cannot tell if this is satire.

Yes, there's an angle difference and being part of a different system consumed by the Tian he could explain that, but technically NO star system plane is in line with the galaxy's ecliptic, because that's determined by the angular momentum of the collapsing dust cloud that formed them. And what's this about "increasing energy" from a system we would basically already be immersed in give or take a few dozen light years from the central plane (relative to an estimated maximum distance of six THOUSAND lightyears to still be "in" the main body - galaxies are BIG!), versus the vastness of space and the difficulty of radiating thermal energy?

Um. Well done I guess. They got me.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 1:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Tracking down the misspelling of 'plants' for 'planets' I found the first reference to this from 2007. Generally, scientific sources are pretty good about spelling 'planets' correctly, which would indicate this wasn't a scientific source. So I tried to track down the original source, hoping for a link to an original paper. No such luck. Searching google scholar also didn't reveal an mention of the principal researcher, the Sagittarius galaxy, and global warming. These claims also don't account for the fact that solar output is constant. So far it's not looking good for this idea.


It does lead me to wonder about the mix of elements in the Sagittarius galaxy versus the mix of elements in the Milky Way galaxy, and if they are different - and if those differences are meaningful when it comes to thinking about the potential for life in the universe.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 2:01 PM

BYTEMITE


I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that this is the kind of political junk science that gives fringe soft-sci a bad name and we should feel bad for even reading it.

Quote:

and if they are different


They are. That's one of the reasons we know this is complete bunk.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 2:20 PM

CHRISISALL


I found this on another site, and figured I'd bring it here for scholarly review (which it is already getting, thanks guys).

My first take, being a non-astrophysicist, was that it would explain the angle we see the Milky Way at from Earth, but that stuff about the Sun increasing its energy... because of proximity to other masses of stars increasing-? That sounds fishy to me. But I ain't no scientist.

Here's another, probably where the article at the top was taken (condensed) from:
http://viewzone2.com/milkywayx.html

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Monday, February 24, 2014 3:02 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Also info on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_Dwarf_Elliptical_Galaxy

ETA: Not sure about the attribution of global warming to this, as these sort of things tend to happen on a multi-million year timeframe.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, February 24, 2014 4:55 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I found this on another site, and figured I'd bring it here for scholarly review (which it is already getting, thanks guys).

My first take, being a non-astrophysicist, was that it would explain the angle we see the Milky Way at from Earth, but that stuff about the Sun increasing its energy... because of proximity to other masses of stars increasing-? That sounds fishy to me. But I ain't no scientist.

Here's another, probably where the article at the top was taken (condensed) from:



We see the galaxy edge on at most latitudes except polar latitudes, where it is low on the horizon and therefore sighting it is difficult. It looks like this -o- not like @.

Think about it. You're at the north pole, and you have to look low on the horizon to see either the galaxy or the sun. It will be tilted, so you can only see half of it. And you see the galaxy on edge. As you move south in latitude, the galaxy is higher in the sky and you see more of it. What does that say to you?

Basically speaking, every native star system will see the galaxy at a different angle, but they will all see it edge on. And they will all orbit around the galactic center, including our solar system. This is why over ten thousand years the constellations haven't changed much.

Secrets of Enlightenment is a link on the bottom. This magazine seems legit.

But seriously, most of the logic in the "Solar System is from a different galaxy" thing was refuted in 2007, and also was the last time it was brought up on the board too. We do and are cannibalizing smaller galaxies, but the sun is most likely homegrown.

The bizarre global warming argument is new to me, but it is, as I said, bizarre, and as unfounded as the rest of it in addition to ignoring the laws of physics.

I mean it. My brain actually broke from the amount of bad science I read in the initial quotation. Here, I found something that both explains the conclusions of the actual scientific paper (which contradicts the interpretation of the magazine) and also why the magazine is incorrect.

Quote:

We’ve always assumed the Sun was born in the Milky Way, and has been here its whole life. Is it possible it was actually born in a different galaxy, and the Milky Way stole it?

Do we have (cue evil music)… an alien Sun?

No.

Oh, you want more info? Alrighty then, sit back. This’ll be fun.



https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/06/27/is-the-sun-
from-another-galaxy
/

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Monday, February 24, 2014 5:26 PM

WHOZIT


We're all doomed, prepare for the Zombie invasion.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 5:29 PM

BYTEMITE


Oh no

Are they created by sinister mystic global warming energy?

Sacrifice some goats.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 5:54 PM

CHRISISALL


This sucks. I WANTED to be from a different galaxy....

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Monday, February 24, 2014 6:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
This sucks. I WANTED to be from a different galaxy....



One, not so far away ?


Meh.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 7:02 PM

MAL4PREZ


Byte, they're not talking about the edge-on view thing. They are talking about the angle of the plane. They say: we should all be spinning in the same plane, if we all formed together. The Earth's equator should line up with the solar system's plane which should line up with the plane of the galactic disk. Again I stress: this is what they say, not what I say!

Cause it's just plain wrong.

It's like saying the Sun is not always directly over the Earth's equator, therefore the Earth must have come from outside the solar system. Wrong! Most planets have tilted rotational poles, and Venus and Uranus even have retrograde spin.

Particles in the cloud that forms into a galaxy (or a solar system) has orbits in all kinds of tilted planes, and it gradually flattens into a disc due to collisions and gravity and such. But local areas of non-aligned spins will stay, and there are other things like tides or local variations in density. The article has a naive view of the tidiness of the universe. It ignores anything messy so it can draw a conclusion it finds entertaining.

Even if the Sun had been part of an external galaxy that joined the Milky Way, the suggestion that settling into the far reaches of an average galaxy would make a star gently and subtly increase its energy output is preposterous.

The physics of stellar and galactic evolution, by the way, is awesome! I wish I understood a lot more about it.



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Monday, February 24, 2014 7:30 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Byte, they're not talking about the edge-on view thing.


I was clarifying for chrisisall. Except for a "tilt" of the galaxy relative to our solar system plane, we do not view the galaxy "at an angle." We view it edge on. The fact that we view it edge on is indicative that we are definitely within the plane of the galaxy. Our solar system is rotated relative to the galaxy, hence the tilt, but we orbit AROUND the galaxy, not perpendicular to it.

I may have misunderstood chris as well, but I wanted it to be clear.

It is a little like how the earth and moon are tilted relative to the plane of the sun itself (this is why we do not have eclipses on every pass), yet we still orbit the sun. The planet was coalesced HERE, in the solar system, in the Orion Arm of the galaxy. Our moon similarly coalesced out of a dust cloud from a collision, but merely orbiting the sun is not sufficient to ensure that it is perfectly in alignment.

I believe that you and I are trying to say the same thing.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 7:39 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It is a little like how the earth and moon are tilted relative to the plane of the sun itself (this is why we do not have eclipses on every pass), yet we still orbit the sun. The planet was coalesced HERE, in the solar system, in the Orion Arm of the galaxy.

Thanks Byte.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 8:09 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I believe that you and I are trying to say the same thing.


Well, we're certainly in agreement on the facts, just focusing on different things.

Stars in a galaxy that joins another will, given time and no further perturbations, eventually settle into the disk, so being in the disk is not in itself proof of origin. So I skipped right past that issue.

Also, our solar system does not remain perfectly in the galactic plane. While I was reading the OP, I was thinking about a bizarre bit of info I got from a geology poster that I no longer have access to and I wish I could find. According to it and a very talented physicist I trust a lot, we pass through the thickest part of the disk three times every cycle around the galaxy, at a time scale of hundreds of millions of years. (I don't understand the details of why it's three - and the three are not evenly spaced in time - but given the messiness of a galaxy, I'm willing to consider it.) In the periods when we are "passing through" the plane, there's a higher likelihood of getting hit by asteroids.

It's there in the geologic record. Really wish I could find that poster. The alignment of meteor/comet strikes to galactic pass-throughs was remarkable.

Oh, and we're heading back into the plane now. :) It's on the scale of millions of years, so we're likely to blow ourselves up or cook ourselves in carbon before the "cloud" can hit us.


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Monday, February 24, 2014 8:20 PM

MAL4PREZ


Well, here's something about this:

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/02/a-deadly-orbit-the-solar-
systems-journey-through-the-milky-way.html


Viewing it as an oscillation makes lots of sense to me. Cool.



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Monday, February 24, 2014 8:30 PM

MAL4PREZ


Sorry to multi-post, but this is a topic I really like!

A niggle: our presence in the Orion Arm is not an infinite thing. The arms of a galaxy are not "stationary" in the sense that my arms would be if I held them out and twirled. The arms are shock waves that, I think, move faster than the material in a galaxy. The Orion shock wave will eventually pass us by, we'll be in the less dense space for a while, then the next shock wave will get to us. Or maybe I've got that backwards about which is faster. I'm going on a book I read more than a decade ago.

The shock waves are gravitational, I recall that much. They are areas of higher density that cause star formation. More dust, more light = visible "arms". But the stars can't be moving at that rate or galaxies wouldn't look like they do.


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Monday, February 24, 2014 9:16 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
The Orion shock wave will eventually pass us by, we'll be in the less dense space for a while, then the next shock wave will get to us.

So, school will be cancelled next year?

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Monday, February 24, 2014 9:19 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
The Orion shock wave will eventually pass us by, we'll be in the less dense space for a while, then the next shock wave will get to us.

So, school will be cancelled next year?



Set up the bar, book the band, and hire the strippers!

:)



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Monday, February 24, 2014 9:55 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Stars in a galaxy that joins another will, given time and no further perturbations, eventually settle into the disk, so being in the disk is not in itself proof of origin. So I skipped right past that issue.


Right, being roughly within a couple dozen light years of the galactic plane is not necessarily a guarantee. But this is part of the other factors which makes it a reasonable conclusion that the solar system is native.

Quote:


Also, our solar system does not remain perfectly in the galactic plane.



Also correct. I probably should have said roughly in or around.

Quote:

our presence in the Orion Arm is not an infinite thing. The arms of a galaxy are not "stationary" in the sense that my arms would be if I held them out and twirled. The arms are shock waves


:o Actually did not know that one. But makes a lot of sense.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 10:24 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Beings on distant planets in far away galaxies are looking through their telescopes at our solar system ... and they must believe, because of the great distances, that WE are an ancient and advanced civilization. So sad that they're so wrong.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 10:28 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Quote:

our presence in the Orion Arm is not an infinite thing. The arms of a galaxy are not "stationary" in the sense that my arms would be if I held them out and twirled. The arms are shock waves


:o Actually did not know that one. But makes a lot of sense.



Doesn't it though? It was a shock to me (baaaad unintentional pun) when I learned it. Many such things make sense to me now, when I've have time to really look at the evidence. I wish I had the time and the expertise to explain it in depth, because I believe the theory is solid. The reality of the verse waiting out there for us is cool as hell. It's just not easy and not quick to expand on.

I always have too much grading to do and not enough time to consider new realities. This site is one place that fills the gap, though I have to use a fairly strong filter and expect that the enlightenment will be colored by hidden political and social stories more than it is supported by solid, well-supported scientific observation.

Woe is me.



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Monday, February 24, 2014 10:59 PM

BYTEMITE


It had been thought for a while that shockwaves from nearby supernova were the trigger for protostar formation and collapse, and could still be true, but this would be a more regular source of triggering new star formation.

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Monday, February 24, 2014 11:10 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Beings on distant planets in far away galaxies are looking through their telescopes at our solar system ... and they must believe, because of the great distances, that WE are an ancient and advanced civilization. So sad that they're so wrong.



Bigggg assumption there Jongs. Everything I've seen of you and yours on this website tears that assumption down. You really don't know?


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Monday, February 24, 2014 11:15 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It had been thought for a while that shock waves from nearby supernova were the trigger for proto-star formation and collapse, and could still be true, but this would be a more regular source of triggering new star formation.


Supernovas surely do trigger star formation, but SN are unusual, random, and widespread events. Regular, run-of-the-mill daily star formation is much more stable and systematic, and happen in "star factories" like what Hubble has captured. I read an excellent description of the process last fall. I'd have to revisit the textbook before I could post a solid explanation here.



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Wednesday, February 26, 2014 11:55 AM

BYTEMITE


So dem shockwaves. Anyone know why they also appear to orbit the galaxy? Maybe your analogy about spinning your arms actually isn't so far off. Perhaps the angular velocity of all the orbiting stars and gravity as the galaxy plows through the intergalactic medium, much like spinning with your arms out raises a wind via the collission with air particles.

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Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:03 PM

CHRISISALL


It's called a Crazy Ivan.

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Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:10 PM

MAL4PREZ


Here we go: From Zielik and Gregory's Intro to Astronomy and Astrophysics:

Following a rough calculation of orbital velocities ie how fast the Sun is orbiting the galactic center:

"Today we believe that the spiral arms of our galaxy are also produced by dynamical effects. If this were not the case, these features would wind up and disappear in only a few revolutions of the Galaxy...

"A spiral arm is thought to be a manifestation of a rotating density wave in the galactic disk. The disk is initially unstable to density perturbations (essentially sound waves), which can grow and gravitationally attract material along spiral paths, but these waves rotate only half as fast as the disk, so that material passes through the density pattern in the direction of galactic rotation. Star formation starts as the dust and gas permeating the dust are compressed at the spiral-arm feature; that is why hot, young Population 1 stars outline spiral structures."

My comments:
1. Zielik and Gregory really like long sentences. Yikes!
2. The material moves faster than the density wave. Did I get that right before? I should have! I did know that once...
3. Spiral arms = density waves = essentially sound waves. Nice. I thought of them more like traffic shock waves that come from heavy traffic or long after an accident, so there's not a stationary blockage point. Cars add onto the back of the high density shock wave, creep forward through it, and eventually leave the front. The people in the cars can't see it, but the shock is moving its own speed.

There is actually a partial differential equation for traffic shock waves. I worked through it once long long ago. Math is so cool.

Back to star formation, condensing the language of the textbook: groups of massive stars are formed sequentially in molecular clouds. The collapse of a group of stars begins on one side of the cloud (indeed Byte: likely triggered by supernovae). The new stars produce radiation which ionizes gas so it expands. The expansion becomes a shock wave. Just behind the shock wave, the gas is compressed enough to start a new group of protostars, which generally starts about 1 million years after the first group and 10-40 parsecs away. The cycle repeats.

I believe part of the excitement over HST's gaseous pillars image was that it was a glimpse of this process. Well, and it's gorgeous. :)

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap031026.html

This traveling shock wave is related to galactic arms.


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Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:14 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


The true reason for Climate Change is the Gr.....






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Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:48 PM

BYTEMITE


Hmm, so it's protostar formations which cause the shockwave - but since the forming protostars are still orbiting the galactic center the shockwave also follows that pattern, which allows the arms to form? (lag in the shockwave and the density creates the spaces between the arms)

This is my best understanding of what you said.

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Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:52 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm, so it's protostar formations which cause the shockwave - but since the forming protostars are still orbiting the galactic center the shockwave also follows that pattern, which allows the arms to form? (lag in the shockwave and the density creates the spaces between the arms)

This is my best understanding of what you said.


Well, more like the shockwave and the star formation are linked processes, and the structure of the spiral arms depends on the length and time scale of that link. I'd bet that the different structures of galaxies, like thin arms versus thick, can be attributed to different patterns of star formation or dust content or something.

But still, what you said is my understanding, pretty much. These massive stars that follow this pattern only live for a few million years, since they're so massive and burn so bright. I wonder if the "arm" passes when they burn out, blow up, and leave their dust to sit in the dark until the next wave hits.

There must be some relationship like that between spirals and star formation, though I doubt it's anything neat and tidy.


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Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:36 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm, so it's protostar formations which cause the shockwave - but since the forming protostars are still orbiting the galactic center the shockwave also follows that pattern, which allows the arms to form? (lag in the shockwave and the density creates the spaces between the arms)

This is my best understanding of what you said.




Don't try to understand any of it Byte. That's the beauty of Science and Theory.

The intent of Theories in Science is to put any single idea on trial ad-finitum until something breaks and it's disproven.

As smart and as educated as they all are, they're just as ill equipped as me at trying to prove that God doesn't exist.

I wish I had that free 300k Science Major my bro has. Although he's just as close as proving the Spaghetti Monster is the creator of all things as he is to proving that the Big Bang wasn't an accident, he does it in style.



The TRUE beauty of Science is that ANYBODY for any POLITICAL reason can say ANYTHING and because it can't be disproven it is basically a FACT until it's disproven.

It's noble, really.... It's in many ways what our Founding Fathers' concepts of America should be....

As an added bonus, any theories made that could potentially be considered "PC issues" can just be completely ignored by the mainstream while rich kids do research on it.

I'm glad my genius bro gets seven years of free college from premium destinations out of it. He's getting his Doctorate in some sort of Probability and Statitistics studies involving human beings as a whole. Normally somebody entering the grad program should teach for a year, but he wanted to go straight into research. He got his wish. I almost feel bad about that. He would have been a 21 year old teacher that taught up to 1/4 of his kids that were physically one year older than he was.

He's the only person who had a wallpaper of the Spaghetti Monster 10 years ago that I respect.

Sure, after going on 5 years of free UBER COLLEGE he hasn't come any closer to disproving god than his life mentors spoke about, but I'm so proud of his debt-free start to a very promising life that I can't hold it against him.




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Thursday, February 27, 2014 10:23 AM

BYTEMITE


...Getting back at me for all those jabs I send your way I see. It very nearly worked, I almost went off on a rant at you that I'm sure you would have lawled at.

I do have a proposition though. If I don't bust your balls about drinking and smoking, then don't you EVER pat me on my girly little airhead and tell me what I can and can't do in regards to science. Deal?

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Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:34 PM

MAL4PREZ


Yeah, I was going with the "ignore the troll" option, though I wouldn't call that post trolling as much as being an ignorant drunk dickhead moron.

And now back to ignoring.



*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



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