Quote:

---

KIEV AND THE WEST CALL CRIMEAN VOTE A "SHAM"
The government in Kiev called the Crimean referendum a "sham". Citing territorial integrity, the government in Kiev - which has yet to stand for election- said it would refuse to recognize the vote, and that Crimea should be returned to the Ukraine.

KIEV DELAYS NATIONAL ELECTIONS
Citing national security, the transitional government of Kiev has canceled national elections indefinitely. When asked whether this would effect aid and loan guarantees from the West, and IMF loans, western sources and IMF head Christine Lagarde said they did not foresee any difficulty with the Ukrainian government being able to maintain its financial authority over the nation. There are many upcoming agreements to be signed with the EU.

KIEV ANNOUNCES AUSTERITY
Because of the cutoff of natural gas deliveries and the subsequent price hike, the transitional Prime Minister, Arseniy Yatseniuk, has announced that natural gas subsidies would be cut back significantly. The IMF has insisted, as it has done with most of its governmental loans, that subsidies be cut in order to shore up governmental finances. Yatseniuk, himself a banker and favored by the United States to head the transitional government, has full authority to obtain loans and sign international agreements, according to the EU and the USA.

KIEV CLAIMS RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN DONETSK AND OTHER EASTERN CITIES, SENDS IN TROOPS
Kiev has claimed that Russian troops, disguised as pro-Russian militants, have taken over government buildings and have shot several Ukrainian citizens. Kiev has sent in troops from western Ukraine to quell these disturbances and oust the invaders.

STEP FIVE: MORE RUSSIAN-SPEAKING PROVINCES ARRANGE FOR REFERENDA

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Since you all seem to think I'm not "objective" about Ukraine, I decided to cite... MYSELF!

---

Quote:

---

You are not making predictions that a lot of people seen coming?

---

Quote:

---

In what is becoming a weekly ritual, the German press continues to demolish the US case of "idealistic humaniatrian" Ukraine intervention. Recall, that it was a week ago that German tabloid Bild am Sonntag, hardly the most reputable source but certainly one which reaches the broadest audience, reported that dozens of CIA and FBI agents were "advising the Ukraine government." This conclusion is hardly a stretch and certainly based on facts considering the recent semi-secret jaunt by CIA head Brennan to Kiev. Fast forward one week when overnight the same Bild reported that about 400 elite mercenary commandos of the private US security firm, Academi, f/k/a Xe Services, f/k/a Blackwater "are involved in a punitive operation mounted by Ukraine's new government" against east Ukraine separatists.

---

Quote:

---

With the referendum vote largely concluded in most east Ukraine regions, it was virtually inevitable that the day would end without some provocation. And, as expected, moments ago CBS reported that "Ukrainian national guardsmen opened fire Sunday on a crowd outside a town hall in eastern Ukraine and an official for the region's insurgents said there were fatalities."

---

Quote:

---

Marc Burleigh @marcburleigh Follow Rebels in Donetsk in east #Ukraine give press conference & claim 89% of voters in province cast ballots in favour of self-rule @AFP

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Since you all seem to think I'm not "objective" about Ukraine, I decided to cite... MYSELF! Here are my predictions, from March 8 and March 9. Along with reams and reams of information, discussion, and sources. Applying KPO's "predictions test" for demonstrating knowledge, how're these predictions coming along, two months later?

Quote:

---

KIEV AND THE WEST CALL CRIMEAN VOTE A "SHAM"
The government in Kiev called the Crimean referendum a "sham". Citing territorial integrity, the government in Kiev - which has yet to stand for election- said it would refuse to recognize the vote, and that Crimea should be returned to the Ukraine.

KIEV DELAYS NATIONAL ELECTIONS
Citing national security, the transitional government of Kiev has canceled national elections indefinitely. When asked whether this would effect aid and loan guarantees from the West, and IMF loans, western sources and IMF head Christine Lagarde said they did not foresee any difficulty with the Ukrainian government being able to maintain its financial authority over the nation. There are many upcoming agreements to be signed with the EU.

KIEV ANNOUNCES AUSTERITY
Because of the cutoff of natural gas deliveries and the subsequent price hike, the transitional Prime Minister, Arseniy Yatseniuk, has announced that natural gas subsidies would be cut back significantly. The IMF has insisted, as it has done with most of its governmental loans, that subsidies be cut in order to shore up governmental finances. Yatseniuk, himself a banker and favored by the United States to head the transitional government, has full authority to obtain loans and sign international agreements, according to the EU and the USA.

KIEV CLAIMS RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN DONETSK AND OTHER EASTERN CITIES, SENDS IN TROOPS
Kiev has claimed that Russian troops, disguised as pro-Russian militants, have taken over government buildings and have shot several Ukrainian citizens. Kiev has sent in troops from western Ukraine to quell these disturbances and oust the invaders.

STEP FIVE: MORE RUSSIAN-SPEAKING PROVINCES ARRANGE FOR REFERENDA

---

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57588&p=2

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Too late!

89% Of Donetsk Voters Pick Independence From Kiev; Ukraine Prepared To Fight To Defend Territory

Quote:

---

Marc Burleigh @marcburleigh Follow Rebels in Donetsk in east #Ukraine give press conference & claim 89% of voters in province cast ballots in favour of self-rule @AFP

---

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-11/89-donetsk-voters-pick-indepe
ndence-kiev-ukraine-warns-prepared-fight-defend-territo

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
That was before Kiev started shooting and burning civilians.

---

Quote:

---

Or before the pro-Russian separatist started killing government officials

---

Quote:

---

The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry has accused "terrorist gangs" of being behind the referendums, which have followed weeks of deadly violence in Ukraine's east. Most recently, 20 separatist militants were killed on May 9 in a government "antiterrorist" operation in the coastal city of Mariupol

---

Quote:

---

Numerous pro-Kyiv officials and activists have also been reported killed.

---

Quote:

---

Pro-Moscow rebels declared a resounding victory in a referendum on self-rule for eastern Ukraine, with some saying that meant independence and others eventual union with Russia as fighting flared in a conflict increasingly out of control.

Organizers in the main region holding the makeshift vote on Sunday said nearly 90 percent had voted in favor.

Well before polls closed, one separatist leader said the region would form its own state bodies and military after the referendum, formalizing a split that began with the armed takeover of state buildings in a dozen eastern towns last month.

Another said the vote simply showed that the East wanted to decide its own fate, whether in Ukraine, on its own, or as part of Russia.

"Eighty-nine percent, that's it," the head of the separatist electoral commission in Donetsk, Roman Lyagin, said by telephone when asked for the result of a vote that the pro-Western Ukrainian government in Kiev has condemned as illegal.

Sunday's vote went ahead despite a call by Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday to postpone it - a move that briefly raised hopes for an easing of tension. Western leaders have accused Putin of destabilizing Ukraine, a charge Moscow denies.

The European Union declared the referendum illegal and prepared to increase pressure on Russia on Monday by taking a first step towards extending sanctions to companies, as well as people, linked to Moscow's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
(Reuters) -

Quote:

---

Pro-Moscow rebels declared a resounding victory in a referendum on self-rule for eastern Ukraine, with some saying that meant independence and others eventual union with Russia as fighting flared in a conflict increasingly out of control.

Organizers in the main region holding the makeshift vote on Sunday said nearly 90 percent had voted in favor.

Well before polls closed, one separatist leader said the region would form its own state bodies and military after the referendum, formalizing a split that began with the armed takeover of state buildings in a dozen eastern towns last month.

Another said the vote simply showed that the East wanted to decide its own fate, whether in Ukraine, on its own, or as part of Russia.

"Eighty-nine percent, that's it," the head of the separatist electoral commission in Donetsk, Roman Lyagin, said by telephone when asked for the result of a vote that the pro-Western Ukrainian government in Kiev has condemned as illegal.

Sunday's vote went ahead despite a call by Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday to postpone it - a move that briefly raised hopes for an easing of tension. Western leaders have accused Putin of destabilizing Ukraine, a charge Moscow denies.

The European Union declared the referendum illegal and prepared to increase pressure on Russia on Monday by taking a first step towards extending sanctions to companies, as well as people, linked to Moscow's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region.

---

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/12/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA40
0LI20140512
Russia should bear sanctions because of what Ukraine does?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

---

The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry has accused "terrorist gangs" of being behind the referendums, which have followed weeks of deadly violence in Ukraine's east. Most recently, 20 separatist militants were killed on May 9 in a government "antiterrorist" operation in the coastal city of Mariupol

---

So, Kiev killed 20 people that they claimed were terrorists. Not sure how this supports your case; it seems to indicate that Kiev is killing people

Quote:

---

Numerous pro-Kyiv officials and activists have also been reported killed.

---

How many? Who? Where? I skimmed thru your links and could find no supporting evidence. You're going to have to supply more information than that.

Oooh, and now I get to pull a M52/MAL4/G/KPO ... Radio Free Europe as a source? Really???

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
(Reuters) -

Quote:

---

Pro-Moscow rebels declared a resounding victory in a referendum on self-rule for eastern Ukraine, with some saying that meant independence and others eventual union with Russia as fighting flared in a conflict increasingly out of control.

Organizers in the main region holding the makeshift vote on Sunday said nearly 90 percent had voted in favor.

Well before polls closed, one separatist leader said the region would form its own state bodies and military after the referendum, formalizing a split that began with the armed takeover of state buildings in a dozen eastern towns last month.

Another said the vote simply showed that the East wanted to decide its own fate, whether in Ukraine, on its own, or as part of Russia.

"Eighty-nine percent, that's it," the head of the separatist electoral commission in Donetsk, Roman Lyagin, said by telephone when asked for the result of a vote that the pro-Western Ukrainian government in Kiev has condemned as illegal.

Sunday's vote went ahead despite a call by Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday to postpone it - a move that briefly raised hopes for an easing of tension. Western leaders have accused Putin of destabilizing Ukraine, a charge Moscow denies.

The European Union declared the referendum illegal and prepared to increase pressure on Russia on Monday by taking a first step towards extending sanctions to companies, as well as people, linked to Moscow's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region.

---

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/12/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA40
0LI20140512
Russia should bear sanctions because of what Ukraine does?

---

Quote:

---

Russia set all of this in motion

---

Quote:

---

Don't like that link, fine. I gave you two.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KPO

Quote:

---

Russia set all of this in motion

---

I have been following this much more closely than most people here, I think. This has never come up as a fact, either from western or Russian press.

In other words, this sounds like yet another baseless assumption to me, so... Cites please?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
M52

Quote:

---

Don't like that link, fine. I gave you two.

---

I looked at both. The first seems to negate your point entirely; the second had no useful information that I could find!

So, you'll have to find other links, because neither one of them supports your point. The Magic Eightball says Try again!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KPO

Quote:

---

Russia set all of this in motion

---

I have been following this much more closely than most people here, I think. This has never come up as a fact, either from western or Russian press.

In other words, this sounds like yet another baseless assumption to me, so... Cites please?

---

Quote:

---

In other words, this sounds like yet another baseless assumption to me, so... Cites please?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Too late!

89% Of Donetsk Voters Pick Independence From Kiev; Ukraine Prepared To Fight To Defend Territory

Quote:

---

Marc Burleigh @marcburleigh Follow Rebels in Donetsk in east #Ukraine give press conference & claim 89% of voters in province cast ballots in favour of self-rule @AFP

---

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-11/89-donetsk-voters-pick-indepe
ndence-kiev-ukraine-warns-prepared-fight-defend-territo

---

Funny that earlier polls found that even in the East the majority of Ukrainians, including those in the east, wanted a united Ukraine.

I would also question if you understand how mercenaries work.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
M52

So, you think that the unelected government of Kiev should have forced Crimea into the fold when the vast majority wanted "out"? I guess you don't believe in democracy. But that's OK- neither (apparently) does the US government.

Also, I thought I said, rather clearly, that I ASSUME there are some Russian special forces in East Ukraine, but very few. Nobody has been able to find them yet, and not even pro-Kiev locals have been able to suss them out, so the number must be very small. There are a lot of things that Russia can provide, like intelligence (troop movements) and advisors, but I think what you're seeing in east Ukraine is for the most part a genuine, homegrown attempt to gain at least some freedom from Kiev.

A number of threads and posts ago, you said that we would rather destroy a nation than see it become friendly to our enemies, and I asked if you mean Russia and China as the enemy you were most concerned about.

You also accused me of being biased, thinking anything the USA does is bad, and anything anyone else does is good. I would suggest that you suffer from the opposite bias, thinking that ANYthing the USA does is good. I think these deserve further discussion.

---

Quote:

---

You call the Kiev unelected, but the Ukraine Parlement was elected that change has been in the President.

---

Quote:

---

You also have to remember that this whole situation started because the people of the Ukraine wanted greater ties to the west and the government did not listen.

---

Quote:

---

I don't see the US, EU, Russia, or China's moves as good or evil overall. Yes, the US would rather is part of Ukraine stay allied to the west if not all of it. That is a simple strategic calculation. I see Russia and China as rivals, not so much enemies.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

---

You call the Kiev unelected, but the Ukraine Parlement was elected that change has been in the President.

---

And the government of Crimea was elected too.

What I find both illogical and frustrating, M52, is that you clearly apply one set of standards to one situation, and within the space of less than a sentence you switch to another set. So (to go a little afield for examples) it's OK for the USA to have enough nuclear weapons to slag the world three times over, but not OK for Iran. Because we're the reasonable ones (although we're the only nation that used nuclear weapons on a population).

Quote:

---

You also have to remember that this whole situation started because the people of the Ukraine wanted greater ties to the west and the government did not listen.

---

No, SOME people of Ukraine. A few posts ago, I warned CHRIS not to accept such all-inclusive terms as "us", "we", "them", "the people", "people", "humans", "Americans" (or Ukrainians, Russians, Chinese etc) unless those terms TRULY apply to the group under discussion. "The people" hides a multitude of opinions.

Quote:

---

I don't see the US, EU, Russia, or China's moves as good or evil overall. Yes, the US would rather is part of Ukraine stay allied to the west if not all of it. That is a simple strategic calculation. I see Russia and China as rivals, not so much enemies.

---

Then, if we have no real enemies, why have we destroyed so many hapless nations? Is our government's foreign policy so meaningless and callous?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Wow... six... seven... maybe eight potential Russian special ops in eastern Ukraine. HELP! It's an INVASION!!!

---

Quote:

---

Did rappy steal your acount?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
M52- I find you confusing. Let's get back to the enemies/ rivals issue: You gave me some reasons... different reasons in each case as to why we destroyed various nations... but in each case it seems we didn't achieve "our" objectives, whatever they was. So, are we just militarily incompetent? Do we just keep making the same or similar mistakes over and over again, without pause or reflection as to why we failed so abjectly the previous number of times?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
One of the things I've noticed, and I beg you to notice too, is that the "reasons" for US invasion rarely make sense on the surface, and are often found to be actual blatant lies in retrospect. (And I can point them out again, if you wish, with more detail. The point is, our government lies more often than not. I wish it weren't so, but that's the truth.)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
AFA whether or not "the majority" of Ukrainians wanted that specific trade deal with the EU, plus the IMF loans and the austerity that comes with it... it was never voted on, so I guess we'll never KNOW what the majority of Ukrainians wanted. It was imposed on the nation though the violent overthrow of an elected government. The violence was precipitated by a group of people (Pravy Sektor) who, in previous elections, won less than 1% of the vote. The new government was appointed by a parliament that was missing representatives from a specific region. That would be a little like the Congress of the USA deciding, without West Coast representation, to levy a special tax just because that part of the economy is "doing better", after this rump Congress appointed a new southern-states President and Cabinet. By your definition, THAT would be "democratic", wouldn't it?

No matter how much you post-justify their actions, the reality is that the nation as a whole never got to weigh in, and Kiev is reaping what it sowed.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
M52

Quote:

---

Did rappy steal your acount?

---

No. Did he steal yours?

I have no idea what you're trying to say with that snide comment, as the video supports what I've been assuming all along- that if I were Putin, I would be sending in small numbers (like, eight in a group?) of trained fighters with critical assistance, supplying intel and advice, and possibly some critical weaponry (shoulder-fired missiles for example).

However, if you look at the videos in general what you will see is mostly males, from about 15 to about 65, in an eclectic mix of sneakers, boots, a few bullet-proof vests, mostly camo jackets, probably either leftovers from previous military service or perhaps loaned to them by the police or captured from Kiev forces. In other words, they seem to be mostly drawn from the local population, not "imposed" on them by Russia.

---

Quote:

---

You can show that a majority wanted the deal with polls. Also you forget that dispite not have all of Parliament there they had, by their laws, enough to pass the resolutions they did. Plus we have an election coming up.

---

Quote:

---

If there were to be a referendum on the question should Ukraine join the Customs Union with Russia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, would you vote for it, against it, or decline to vote? The results showed 40.8% in favor and 33.1% opposed.

---

Quote:

---

Ottawa-based analyst Ivan Katchanovski, however, points out that the GfK polls have been unreliable in the past and have tended to exaggerate support for affiliation with Europe and ask questions that were not very clear to the respondents.

---

Quote:

---

Thing is you blame the west when all the west has done is try and counter balance the interference of Russia. You know like raising the price of gas.

---

Quote:

---

Even in the polls you posted it was 45% favoring with that trending up.

---

Quote:

---

How did the west cause Russia to raise the price of gas?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
There were NO polls indicating that a majority of Ukrainians wanted to join the EU right away. Let's look at this chart:



First of all, the questions are unbalanced, it is an unfair poll- joining the EU is given four chances to "win", while "no" and "hard to say" are each given only one, and there is no equivalent question about joining the Customs Union. Yep, what a way to jink the numbers!

Even so, only 37% wanted to join the EU within five years. NOT a majority. The next largest number of respondents (31%) said "no", and the next highest number (11%) said "hard to say". The remainder preferred that this decision be put off for anywhere from 5-20+ years (At 20+ years, this is effectively a "no") This poll does not support your statement.

Quote:

---

Even in the polls you posted it was 45% favoring with that trending up.

---

ONE poll showed that. Another poll didn't.

And referring to how people poll now, to justify what happened then?? Really?? Uh, you DO realize how intellectually dishonest that is, don't you?

So much has happened between now and then that opinion has changed quite a bit! NOW the nation is polarized. People in western Ukraine realize that all of their economic bridges to the east have been burned, and they really do have only one option, just as people in the south and east have had all of THEIR economic bridges to the west burned and THEY have only one option.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It didn't cause Putin to raise the price, it prevented him from reducing it. Putin was ready to offer Ukraine a 30% reduction in gas price, as well as a $15 billion bond purchase (essentially a loan to the insolvent government of Ukraine) as a non-exclusive counteroffer to the EU deal.

The EU proposal was an exclusive deal (did no allow trade with Russia) that required- among other things- adherence to NATO principles, a loan from the IMF, and austerity measures that raised customer gas prices by 50% and reduced pensions and other government social payouts by about 50%.

These were the two choices that Yanukovych faced. Quite frankly, if I were in his shoes I would have chosen the Russian offer, as it was a much better deal. (All carrots, no sticks.) The west could have obviated that conflict at any point, by withdrawing its insistence that Ukraine follow NATO requirements, for example, or by making the agreement non-exclusive, but the west insisted on harsh measures in its "offer" to Ukraine. Once the elected government was overturned- with western political/ military cover (and I'm sure as will be found out later, financial support), Russia was no longer bound by its offer to reduce gas prices.

---