New rape discussion. The last one got a little long... by Wishimay

That’s 2.5% out of every thousand at it's high point 1997. That suggests 97.5% of men do not engage in rape. I took classes in college that debunk your claims and show them as little more than one person’s perceptions of the world.

Comparison of selected countries' rape rates,

Sorry, again I do not want to dismiss your feeling on rape, just your perceptions.

si shen

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 1:36 PM

WHOZIT

What's the % of gay men raping boys? I've noticed that when men rape boys the word "gay" is never mentioned.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 1:40 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Wish

Men ARE capable of control. If not, every single act of sex by every man would be a rape. And since you know that every single act of sex by every man is NOT a rape (you do know that, right?) then there are OTHER factors involved besides just rape rape rape. What do you think those factors are?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 2:46 PM

That's what I'm trying to say, I believe DNA is responsible for many things that we don't understand. It seems many of you are trying to say these are rational people that made just an irrational decision, I'm trying to say I believe there may be a genetic component. Maybe there are many parts of the brain that are prone to snapping, to rape, to violence.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2664421/Pakistani-woman-20-gan
g-raped-killed-hanged-tree-say-police.html

You can't tell me there ain't something wrong with Indian men that they think it's ok to gang rape young girls. This isn't one decision gone awry, this is entire patterns of errant thought.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 3:00 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
That's what I'm trying to say, I believe DNA is responsible for many things that we don't understand. It seems many of you are trying to say these are rational people that made just an irrational decision, I'm trying to say I believe there may be a genetic component. Maybe there are many parts of the brain that are prone to snapping, to rape, to violence.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2664421/Pakistani-woman-20-gan
g-raped-killed-hanged-tree-say-police.html

You can't tell me there ain't something wrong with Indian men that they think it's ok to gang rape young girls. This isn't one decision gone awry, this is entire patterns of errant thought.

A-hem.

So you're saying that it's something in the male Indian DNA that makes them rapists. AS in - racially Indian men raised in a non-Indian environments will still have a higher incidence of child gang-rapes. You think so?

Or might there be something about the Indian society, about their upbringing and the values they learn, that makes them think that such acts are OK?

Might there something about the male dominated and violent sports dominated culture of American colleges, and the lack of any real consequences for men who rape, that leads to such a widespread college rape problem? Or are you saying that the young men of Dartmouth (and many many other schools) have rape in their DNA?

Because, and there is no way of saying this gently, any suggestion that men have some inherent genetic need to rape and they can't help it is pure bullshit. The problem will never be solved as long as this mentality has even a toe hold. Rape is a problem with the culture, the mindset of a community, that men come to believe that such acts are OK. They LEARN it, they are not born with it.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
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Saturday, June 21, 2014 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:

Wow, thank you for totally proving my point. If all men were
basically the same and culture was the only thing that made
the difference, then similar cultures should have similar rates.
They don't. That is why the problem will never totally be fixed,
because we don't know enough about DNA to fix it.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 3:08 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:

**stat figures**

Sorry, again I do not want to dismiss your feeling on rape, just your perceptions.

You make the mistake of assuming that percent of reported rapes = actual percent of rapes.

Hey - North Korea has the lowest numbers of public protests against the government this year. Why, golly, that must be one awesome place where no wrong is ever done!

Since you love stats so much, look into sexual assault in America colleges and in the military, and look into how many are reported officially versus the response to anonymous surveys. Also look into what happens to many women who report being raped. Then think again about what is really behind those "decreasing" numbers.

ETA: in case you really don't get it. Might that high number for Sweden mean that in Sweden feel some confidence of receiving justice rather than a second round of victimization, this time in public while their attacker goes free?

Hint: the answer is yes.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 3:11 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
That is why the problem will never totally be fixed, because we don't know enough about DNA to fix it.

*facepalm*

I don't even know how to respond to this.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
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*-------------------------------------------------*

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
That is why the problem will never totally be fixed, because we don't know enough about DNA to fix it.

*facepalm*

I don't even know how to respond to this.

G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate would work.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 5:05 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"That's what I'm trying to say, I believe DNA is responsible for many things that we don't understand."

Then DNA is ALSO responsible for the fact that NEARLY ALL men NEVER rape. Right?

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 5:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"That's what I'm trying to say, I believe DNA is responsible for many things that we don't understand."

Then DNA is ALSO responsible for the fact that NEARLY ALL men NEVER rape. Right?

That was brilliant, kik.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 6:25 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Wish

I also think you have very peculiar ideas about DNA.

So rather than go through long boring references to studies, or tell you about my personal observations about DNA and characteristics, I'll go through a shorter story abut the 3 extremely feral kittens I'm fostering.

They were found - looking like scrawny bobbleheads, they were so undernourished - under a bush at one of our off-site locations, put into a large rubbermaid bin with holes knifed into the top, set on top of a flimsy unsecured rack in the back of a van, then bounced and shaken all the way back to the main location for an hour at freeway speed. By the time they got to me, they were all huddled in a corner of the bin. Were they born to be terrified? The tiniest - an orange/orange striped tabby female - was hissing, growling, spitting and swatting at anything that came within two feet of her. Was she born to be hostile? The middle one - a white and orange splotch female - was at times mewing the most pitiful mew. Was she born to be noisy? And the largest - a black and white splotch male - was quietly looking at every movement and turning his ears at every sound. Was he born to be taciturn?

My job was to keep them healthy and make them adoptable. So I started feeding them no-salt-added canned salmon for the taste, figuring if they like the food they'll like me, and for the taurine and the fishoils.

After a couple days huddled in the bathroom they started to venture away from their bed to explore and play. But then they had a big traumatic trip to the vet where they got a bath to get cleaned up and get rid of fleas That was a big setback and the littlest one - poor thing - in the single break in her unrelenting hostility, was desperately trying to nurse on my fingers. Was she born insecure?

It took about 4 days to get back to where they had been before the vet in terms of interaction. The middle one started meowing and chirping at me, the littlest one stopped growling and spitting but would still crouch and swat, and the big guy seemed alert but indifferent. None of them would allow me to pet them. They avoided hands at all costs.

But I noticed the big guy's eyes were bugging out at strange sounds. What I got from that was that he wasn't indifferent - instead, his reactions were SO strong and uncomfortable he would simply not engage. But he did respond to the 'slow blink' signal and relax at times. The littlest one was still hostile and 110% active. The middle one meanwhile made the most progress in terms of accommodating me and allowing me to pet her.

So a few more days went by as the stress levels gradually came down. I figured I'd put the big guy on the bed with me away from the others, but keep everything very low-key to accommodate his sensitivity. After a couple of hours he eventually worked his way over to me and purred a touch. I thought he would never purr. And his hyper-responsiveness diminished after that. He wasn't born mellow, he was hyper-responsive. As the biggest it didn't come into play, because he naturally got the best teat and the most food. But as a result of the trauma, he lost a lot of ability to regulate his neural activity. Then in a quiet confidence-boosting setting his equilibrium got restored. He lost a lot of his defensive separation and started to play, to purr and to meow.

The next day I decided that the littlest VERY hostile one was going to need an attitude adjustment session. I truly thought I was going to get scratched and bitten from this. But I put her on the bed with me and gently kept corralling her and gently petting her. To my amazement, within a couple of minutes she started purring the LOUDEST purr. And what happened to all that hostility that I thought was a characteristic of HER, that she was born with? It evaporated completely. What I surmised was that as the littlest, her mechanism to get a place at the table was to amp up the adrenaline. She pushed her way onto a teat, pushed her way to get food, pushed the others around to maintain her spot. She wasn't born hostile, it was just her way of surviving as small as she was. When she was away from having to compete, that mechanism wasn't triggered.

Meanwhile, as for the middle one - she's not too bright, I've temporarily decided. Her way of surviving was to communicate frequently with and adapt to her provider.

So, for what it's worth, keeping on keeping on, they've all gotten to the point where they eat well, play hard, sleep confidently stretched out - and purr regularly, which I think is a good thing for them. But those characteristics I thought they were born with seem to have disappeared under a newer set of experiences. I don't think they were in the DNA, it was a combination of inbuilt set points and circumstance.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 6:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate would work.

Yep. Until it doesn't.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 10:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Sorry, we needed a new one, Six, bud, yer wrong hon.
No one DESERVES to get raped. Some people do deserve to die I think, but that is necessary for justice (your value system may vary.)
Rape is never a necessary thing. You have a hand and can perform the function yourself and blaming rape on someone else because you prefer to hurt others than fiddle with yourself is just unnecessary.

Here's where I left off....

97% of the rapes in this country are perpetrated by MEN
3% are perpetrated by women

If this is men controlling themselves... holy hell do y'all need a new control switch...

And this is without getting into the murder or incidences of violence...

SERIOUSLY, GENETICS. Men have the DNA that makes testosterone, and lower levels of warm fuzzy hormones. It sure looks like to me that because of testosterone, and accompanying various genes, that statistically men aren't AS capable of self-control. Notice the AS word in there. A lot of meaning hinges on it...

Should they be able to? Maybe. I dunno, I don't have an excess of testosterone. I do have an excess of estrogen once a month and it makes me act in ways I wouldn't normally, and wouldn't condone if I weren't under the influence of it... We all know steroids can make people rage....

You're thinking is incredibly flawed and not a little depressing. What you are basically saying is that physiologically men are not able to demonstrate much self control. That confronted with something they desire, they will have to struggle to control themselves from taking it. Therefore, women must be responsible from protecting themselves from the ravishings of these beasts.

Kind of 18th century in your views.

The funny thing is, I know lots of men, I grew up in a household of men. I have men friends, a husband, a son, nephews,collegues. They seem to be able to control their lusts. They dont strike fear into females within their proximity that they may suddenly lung. So if these men can exert self control, does that mean they are freaks of mankind? Or is something else at play that makes men violent?

And, as stated previously, if rape is about uncontrolled lust how do you explain attacks on old ladies, kids? Were they dressed provocatively in order to bring on lust attacks by men? You've never answered these questions, because in your mind, rape only happens to scantily clad gorgeous young things. when that isn't the case.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 11:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
if rape is about uncontrolled lust

I've been a victim of uncontrolled lust all my life (I blame James Bond films), but I never seriously wanted someone who didn't want me back.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 11:37 PM

Ok, I'm done with Magons and Kiki... Between kitten parables and trying to attack ME on every post, geez this is one moronic conversation..

Magons, let me know when you can disagree with someone without name calling on EVERY POST. I'm all for pointed words when there's a point, but really EVERY TIME??? Don't you get tired eventually?
Do you really think the angriest post wins or something?? Like I said, when you've read ANY literature about genetics, come back and we'll talk.

I'm sure you believe all the men you know are saints, though. Good for you, sweetness

As for Chris... No offense man, but I'd have no way to disprove it. My point wasn't that ALL men are rape-y bastards anyway. My point was that for each race of people I believe that a percentage have an inbred genetic weakness that causes them to do things they know to be illogical, and that being half naked and in a crowd of drunken guys is in all probability a threat to a girl's well being.

I'd give my opinion on some older men and the evidence of degradation of the judgment center of the brain and my assessment of the DNA patterns of gay and lesbian people, but I honestly don't think anyone here knows enough to even have the conversation, and sanely... Pity. I guess I need to find a site of people dedicated to theoretical genetics.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 11:38 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

I've been a victim of uncontrolled lust all my life (I blame James Bond films), but I never seriously wanted someone who didn't want me back.

There's nothing wrong with wanting someone who doesn't want you back, especially if they don't even know you. That's what life is ... a million fantasy romances that exist only in your head.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 11:49 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... but I honestly don't think anyone here knows enough to even have the conversation (about) theoretical genetics ..."

Really ... well, let's see it. I'm not afraid of research papers if you have any.

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 11:54 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

want to keep this up near the top - am really REALLY hoping for those references

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:01 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

want to keep this up near the top - am really REALLY hoping for those references

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:03 AM

Sorry. Not even. Kittens. You really thought behaviors in KITTENS were a good analogy?? Really???

I'm still boggled you thought that was any way relevant...

If this was a cat behaviorist website, maybe. Put down the kitty litter, and smell fresh air once in a while...

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:06 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, no references? Are you going to pull a rappy and flounce off saying we're all to stupid for you?

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:11 AM

I AM gonna post this here too, for the people who don't seem to understand that stats are about cumulative data.

Wait, a MILLION rapes a year (I believe to be no where close to the actual number, but...)

So, in the last 20 years there have been 20 MILLION RAPES!
60 years, 60 MILLION RAPES!!!
NOW rethink your position on men, heh?

Hello, a rational person knows smoke and fire ARE connected and gets the hell out of way!!!

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
we're all to stupid for you?

Stupid, no. Ignorant, yeah. I got screwed when my daughter had 104 fever and we took her to the emergency room ten years ago, because of my lack of knowledge about the medical "profession."

I took it as a challenge. I spend an hour every day reading about rare genetic diseases, the genetic mutations we have so far cataloged, published studies, looking at pictures of rashes, cancers, reading personal accounts, drug trials...

You do that for the next ten years, then we can have the conversations you so desperately wanna tear me down about.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:20 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

still no references ?

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:37 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

You do that for the next ten years, then we can have the conversations you so desperately wanna tear me down about.

Spent a good 6 years studying it full time and over 11 working in various medically related professions. Have had family members with literally 1 in a million conditions. You're not the only one who knows things, hon. So quit with the self-righteous martyrdom, and either discuss what you claim to know or stop pretending you know so much.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Magons, let me know when you can disagree with someone without name calling on EVERY POST. I'm all for pointed words when there's a point, but really EVERY TIME??? Don't you get tired eventually?
Do you really think the angriest post wins or something?? Like I said, when you've read ANY literature about genetics, come back and we'll talk.

I think your views are archaic and depressing and I've told you so. AND OCCASIONALLY I RESPOND IN ANGRY CAPS TO YOUR ANGRY CAPS. But apart from that, have I been that insulting? Dunno, can't remember it if I have. You know, you've taken a pretty controversial line, so you might expect a bit of heat.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 2:07 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, I'm going to discuss this by myself.

Frem and I have had serious disagreement in the past over nature versus nurture. I believe there are some people - not all, but some - who are simply born different from most other people. For example, I believe there are born sociopaths. (I don't think every sociopath was born that way, but a select portion were.)

Now, when I say that I think some people are born with unalterable characteristics, I don't necessarily think it's genetic. For example, I think it would be a mistake to think our genetics have changed so rapidly it explains the phenomenal rate of autism in the last few decades. It makes more sense to think it's environmental.

Nevertheless, despite what I believe to be environmental factors, some children are genuinely born different, they're not created by bad parenting.

Another example of hasty attribution to genetics was the vast difference in breast cancer rates between Anglo-American women and Japanese women. But in a study of particular clarity, the breast cancer rates of immigrant Japanese women in Hawaii, and genetically Japanese but culturally American women living on the US mainland were compared, with rates in genetically identical populations rising as the US lifestyle gained prominence. The US-Japanese women had rates identical to Anglo-Americans. So, calling EVERYTHING genetic is hasty and can obscure valuable information.

When it comes to the genetics of rape, I thought it would be interesting to compare Sweden to other Nordic countries. Sweden has a relatively high rate of rape as compared to its geographic and similar-habitat neighbors.

And yet, genetically, the Finns with a low rate of rape, compare closely with the Swedes.

Genetics

According to recent genetic analysis, both mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms showed a noticeable genetic affinity between Swedes and other Germanic ethnic groups.[69] For the global genetic make-up of the Swedish people and other peoples (see also [70] and [71]).

In Patrilineage through the Y haplogroups of their DNA, the Swedes are most diverse and strongly of Haplogroup I1d1 in over 40% of the population tested in different studies, followed by R1a1a and R1b1a2a1a1 with over 20% each one and haplogroup N1c1 with over 5% at different regional variance. The rest are among haplogroups J and E1b1b1 and other less common ones.[72]

Among Mitochondrial haplogroups the Swedes are in matrilineage strongly of haplogroup H in a 25-30%,followed by haplogroup U at a 10% or more, with haplogroup J and T, K at around 5% each one.

Another detailed nuclear genetic study has also implied that Swedes largely share genetics with Finns.

What are we to make of the varying rates among countries? Should we say that the Swedes are genetically different from the Finns? That the Canadians are genetically different from the Americans, but similar to the Japanese?

This isn't to say the potential to rape doesn't have a genetic component. My supposition is that it's caused by humans being a pair-bonded but group-living species. OTOH it appears to be HEAVILY modifiable by a factor of neatly 100 through cultural norms.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 2:41 AM

Or maybe Swedish definition of rape is broader and theirs is a culture of less tolerance towards rape and women are more likely to report.

It can be compared to our family violence stats, which have gone through the roof, but it's difficult to conclude that rates have actually gone up, when the definition has been broadened and laws and police processes have been changed which encourage reports.

There are still those who like to point the finger at women as well for being victims of family violence. It's funny how victims get the blame, especially women.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 2:52 AM

The problem I have with trying to find a genetic/biological component to all this means that bad behaviour then becomes tolerated, unless someone is suggesting that all INdian males be killed or neutered.

Rather than finding a genetic cause, what about looking at the values that enable or tolerate rape within a culture.

You'd find inequality between the sexes
A belief that men are unable to control themselves around women
That women's bodies are both somehow disgusting as well as desirable
That men have ownership of women through marriage or family relationships
That women who are sexually active other than with their owner (husband) are immoral and often deserve harsh punishments, including death
That women must submit to the desires of their owner ie the term 'conjugal rights'
Women who follow the above are virtuous and good, all others are sluts and evil

In other words, societies or people who hold those views, see unattached, unchaperoned women as being immoral, filthy beings that that it's the right of a male to unleash his desires, often acccompanied by violence, on that person.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 3:06 AM

she should be locked up for indecent exposure, and I'm just hoping it's a co-ed prison and I'm the lucky guy to share a cell with her for any one of very numerous terrible things I've said on these boards while drinking.

In "Gimme Shelter" we see a totally naked, clearly wasted 'Rubenesque' girl work her way towards the stage while The Rolling Stones are playing. As she gets to the stage a couple of Hell's Angels grab her and knock her to the ground with pool cues. Later she is seen bleeding from the head. Whaddaya gonna do?

That's a spicy-a-meatball!

What' the difference between these women and those who wear low-cut cleavage boasting tops and then whine that men are looking at her hooters?
Or women who only want to date guys who beat them up, because that is the only way they know "he really loves me, and makeup sex is great after a good fight" but then complain that he beats her?

Don't raise a little trailer-park SLUT and she won't have her Kardashian-Wannabee-Ass groped by EVERY poor and intoxicated basement-dweller at a concert that kids are also invited to in broad daylight on July 8th.

If your of-age daughter were the girl I brought up in this post, I'd hope you'd at least blush when even acknowledging what a little slut she was and that she belonged to you

Seriously, you get a drunk girl , dressed like that, in front of young drunk males, a quick vulgar, though harmless grab is bound to happen.

Please "MOMS", look beyond my admitted drunkeness and realize that I am all about protecting an innocient girl's virtue.

Seems the vast majority of women drink alcohol precisely to get laid, "let go their inhibitions," et al, and then complain they won't get laid when they're sober.

Same goes for the girl. We can pretend that all men are capable of keeping hands to themselves or we can recognize reality for what it is and PROTECT OURSELVES.

If the clothes you wear (or lack thereof) are attention seeking you probably shouldn't be surprised when you get negative attention

They can go to work, be married, raise kids, graduate college, and when not aroused KNOW that rape is wrong, but the second it goes up and that predatory chance happens their IQ goes DOWN.

You're just jealous that people would boo your ass off the speaker if you started gyrating your gelatinous cube of a body on it.

If you're an AMERICAN teenage slut wearing "clothing" on less than 2% of your body, dancing on a speaker at an outdoor concert, "dipping" your ass just inches away from the faces and hands of total horny male strangers.

YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE.

Oh my, feel the hate

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:22 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh my, feel the hate

This whole discussion was depressing even before all the racist stuff started.

A, to me, more thought-provoking take on the issue in India, of January 2013:

http://www.alternet.org/gender/2-more-horrific-gang-rapes-why-rage-aga
inst-women-boiling-over-india

Quote:

2 More Horrific Gang Rapes: Why Rage Against Women Is Boiling Over in India
Like the accused witches of Europe, women in India have become scapegoats.
(...)
Fast-forward to India in the 21st century. The comparison with the country’s transformations to early modern Europe is somewhat crude, but certain similarities jump out. The Indian village is surely being disrupted by modern capitalism. A transition from rural to urban life has brought a new middle-class into existence, but it has also brought an explosion of poor people living on the fringes, often in city slums. Many people have been displaced from rural areas where there is no longer a place for them or a way to earn a living. Everything is in flux. Women are giving birth to fewer babies ( 2.6 on average), and having a large family is no longer a way to economic security, but a route into poverty. Unemployment is rampant, and those who have jobs often work in terrible conditions.

Women in India are becoming more educated, a fact that has caused an angry backlash by conservatives. They are working outside the home in greater numbers. In rural areas, they are shifting from agricultural work to manufacturing, trade and services jobs. In the cities, they are also moving into manufacturing, as well as finance, insurance and real estate. More women are entering the workforce every year. These 21st-century women are more mobile, and they are also increasingly living away from kin and thus unable to take advantage of the normal protection offered by that proximity.

In India, the state apparatus is heavily male-dominated and full of men who espouse traditional values. More often than not, you’ll find a weak, corrupt, ineffective government that has been crooked for generations. The men in charge are generally not explicitly leading the attack on women as those in Europe’s early modern period (though in some remote places they undoubtedly do so). But certainly many public officials are sitting by indifferently, glad to have rage pointed at something other than themselves. The police are largely complicit, as the sad stories now coming out of India testify.

Women riding trains and buses are symbols of the increased mobility, enhanced economic power and independence that modern capitalist societies offer them. They symbolize the breakdown of the old order and the fragility of the patriarchy that supports it. As students, as workers in call centers, or as villagers whose lives encompass more than just the limits of the family farm, they are affronts to rigid hierarchies that have existed for thousands of years. To men with few prospects for social and economic success, the women become objects of hysterical hatred.

This, to me, is a far more believable angle than some genetic difference that just makes Indian or Arabic men naturally more prone to rape.

Because that conclusion is based on such a small POV: rape stats in a time of economic upheaval or political crisis, in a society where women are so low-status that a significant number are aborted before they are even born.

The same trend of gender selection that is showing its impact in India and China, is taking off in the Middle East.

That's some seriously deep-seated hostility toward women. A sick society.

It just seems a lot more likely that these cultural factors would have a greater impact on incidences of rape than genes.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 10:30 AM

Like I said AGENTROUKA, power and control. Attacks by men in this case that feel they are powerless, lashing out and expressing dominance and control over someone.

si shen

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 11:08 AM

DEVERSE

Hey, Ive been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire. Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Here's where I left off....

97% of the rapes in this country are perpetrated by MEN
3% are perpetrated by women

If this is men controlling themselves... holy hell do y'all need a new control switch...

And this is without getting into the murder or incidences of violence...

SERIOUSLY, GENETICS. Men have the DNA that makes testosterone, and lower levels of warm fuzzy hormones. It sure looks like to me that because of testosterone, and accompanying various genes, that statistically men aren't AS capable of self-control. Notice the AS word in there. A lot of meaning hinges on it...

Should they be able to? Maybe. I dunno, I don't have an excess of testosterone. I do have an excess of estrogen once a month and it makes me act in ways I wouldn't normally, and wouldn't condone if I weren't under the influence of it... We all know steroids can make people rage....

Wishi - I know I'm going to be breaking some rules of the forum here; so please bear with me.
I am going to explain my position and ask polite questions and see if I can agree or not with what sounds like an interesting theory.
My reasoning is only because a believer in science will explore all possible theories in search of an answer or understanding. I profess to have no specific knowledge regarding rape, I will say that after 23 years and thousands of interviews with arsonists, I do have some belief regarding sociobiology.

I have difficulty in thinking that every single rape is a result of a genetic trait. However, I do understand that "rape" occurs quite frequently in animals and insects and that it is assumed that this occurs not as a social behaviour, but a biological one. The theories about why these "rapes" occur and extending them to human behaviour is likely quite controversial as the assumption regarding animals is that it occurs as a means to avoid genetic extinction by males who are not selected as sexual partners. In other words it suggests male animals are driven to reproduce no matter what and its built into their genetics.
I would suggest that the thought that human males commit rape as a biological behaviour would be similar to saying rape is "natural" and thus normal or should be accepted and this may be a reason why such a theory is rejected. Humans should be "better" than animals (yeah, right) and this likely leads to a fair amount of prejudice against such a theory.

Anyway, I am supposing that you are suggesting that if rape is part of an animal's genetics, is it also part of human genetics?
I don't specifically disagree, but I would think it is possibly overwhelmed by other factors as not every male is predisposed to rape someone, at least not in my mind.
Actually, the thought tends to make me nauseous and while I am not exactly violent by nature and rarely get angry at anything, it does raise the emotion in me.

I have some tendency to agree this has some potential as a theory, but I am not exactly accepting that it is a part of every human male, simply because there are other factors that must be considered, culture being one that I think is rather strong.
Would you agree that culture is a stronger motivator than genetics? Both as a motivator and as a motivator not to rape?

Given the possible lowering rate of incidence would you think it is a trait that is being lost or is it some other factor?

Would you think it is a genetic mutation rather than inherent?

Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing a bit more of your thoughts on this and perhaps some clarification of your thoughts.

Oh let the sun beat down upon my face;
With stars to fill my dream;
I am a traveler of both time and space;
To be where I have been

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 11:10 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

An important part of the picture - rapists are much less common than rape victims:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/05/01/campus_sexual_assault_
statistics_so_many_victims_but_not_as_many_predators.html

Quote:
A study published in 2002 by David Lisak and Paul Miller, for which they interviewed college men about their sexual histories, found that only about 6 percent of the men surveyed had attempted or successfully raped someone. While some of them only tried once, most of the rapists were repeat offenders, with each committing an average of 5.8 rapes apiece. The 6 percent of men who were rapists were generally violent men, as well. "The 120 rapists were responsible for 1,225 separate acts of interpersonal violence, including rape, battery, and child physical and sexual abuse," the researchers write. A single rapist can leave a wake of victims, racking up the numbers rapidly, as the victim surveys are clearly showing.

This cannot be emphasized enough: The high rates of campus sexual assault are due mostly to a small percentage of men who assault multiple women.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:11 PM

I have said this serveral times on the other thread. I said if you have say 30 rapes on campus they would have been done by the same 5 guys. The numbers are made up but the point is valid.

si shen

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:44 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Magons, I understand that Sweden might have a different definition of rape and a different reporting culture as compared to Finland, but from everything I've read it does have a serious rape problem, and also, a problem with sexual coercion between partners. The laws and reporting culture were meant to address that, not the other way around.

But even if that's true and Sweden is a legal/ reporting anomaly, it doesn't explain the differences between the US and Canada. (Or, using other stats, the US and the UK, Australia or NZ. Or Mexico and Guatemala.)

The statistics don't support the idea that differences in the rate of rape are genetic rather than cultural.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 12:50 PM

BYTEMITE

I'm impressed Wish has kept this going so long. Even I usually get bored making myself a target and piling on the dark chocolate.

Lol you guys, lol.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Magons, I understand that Sweden might have a different definition of rape and a different reporting culture as compared to Finland, but from everything I've read it does have a serious rape problem, and also, a problem with sexual coercion between partners. The laws and reporting culture were meant to address that, not the other way around.

But even if that's true and Sweden is a legal/ reporting anomaly, it doesn't explain the differences between the US and Canada. (Or, using other stats, the US and the UK, Australia or NZ. Or Mexico and Guatemala.)

The statistics don't support the idea that differences in the rate of rape are genetic rather than cultural.

I think the stats indicate cultural differences, which are supported by legal processes.

Let's face it, if you're likely to be convicted of adultery which carries a death sentence, you're not going to report rape.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:07 PM

Laws may change the rate it occurs and if it is reported, but it will not change the reasons why it occurs.

si shen

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:24 PM

Behind every rape is a terrified little kid feeling out of control and unable to point to his grown up self and see the asshole.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:32 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Yanno Magons, I tried to look up to see if rape rates correspond with gun ownership rates, homicide rates, or assault rates, or other measures of generic interpersonal violence and approval of same. Unfortunately, it would take a lot more time to look into than I have. It would be interesting to find out.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Laws may change the rate it occurs and if it is reported, but it will not change the reasons why it occurs.

si shen

You don't think that laws work as a deterrent? I'd imagine that it might increase the rate of rape if their were no consequences for the perp and the cultural paradigm saw unaccomapanied females as being 'sluts who deserve what they get'.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Yanno Magons, I tried to look up to see if rape rates correspond with gun ownership rates, homicide rates, or assault rates, or other measures of generic interpersonal violence and approval of same. Unfortunately, it would take a lot more time to look into than I have. It would be interesting to find out.

I suspect you would find that societies where there is a high number of violent crimes will also have a high number of the violent crime known as rape.

Ikiki I looked up some stuff on genetics, and it backs up what I already knew. That we are all pretty much the same. According to wiki, we are 99.9% similar to any other humans on this planet. And because we've been so migratorial in the last 60,000 of years or so, racial identity is pretty much culturally based, despite a bit of surface difference.

My BIL recently had his DNA tested, he was pretty much 99% northern european descent which goes to show how differneces between populations very far apart may be almost insignificant. So apart from being nordic looking, he's not at all rapey.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:58 PM

You need to reread my post MAGONSDAUGHTER . I did not say what you imply.

si shen

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Behind every rape is a terrified little kid feeling out of control and unable to point to his grown up self and see the asshole.

or someone who gets off on exerting power and control over another person.

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
You need to reread my post MAGONSDAUGHTER . I did not say what you imply.

si shen

Oh, sorry

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
You need to reread my post MAGONSDAUGHTER . I did not say what you imply.

si shen

Oh, sorry

No problem

si shen

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Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:39 PM