I'm beginning to wonder.. by Connorflynn

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

I'm beginning to wonder..

POSTED BY: CONNORFLYNN
UPDATED: Monday, October 25, 2004 04:04
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VIEWED: 1817
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Friday, October 22, 2004 10:27 AM

I was and to a degree am still an advocate for the removal of Saddam Hussein from power. The world is a safer place without him. However as the war progresses the more angry I become. I have a few friends over in Iraq and one that has returned severely injured by a mortar attack. I spend every day surfing the net researching politics and foreign policy.

Yesterday I came to a painful realization about this administration's handling of the war, after speaking with the adoptive father of a young friend (I consider him a nephew)of mine who is currently battling insurgents outside of Fallujah. I used to play D&D with his adoptive father, while this scrawny little kid used to run around the basement (our gaming area) with his He-Man sword and shield , hooting and hollering while we killed orcs hehe. My friend told me Andy is scared shitless, with good reason. What really bothers me out about this, other then the obvious, is that he took the time to make out a will before he left. How many 19 year olds even think about wills, let alone creating one for themselves.

This revelation really made me reflect on what this war means and how it was planned. I'm frustrated with what is becoming an increasing reality, this administration went to war without a complete plan. It was/is understood that we could win a military victory in Iraq or anywhere that we put our mind and hearts, after all America has the greatest trained and technologically advanced military on the planet. Where the flaw lays with Iraq,in my opinion, is the fact that we don't seem to have a plan to win the peace. Andy has said and so have my other friends over there, that the Iraqis truly do appreciate our help, but still don't trust that we will see this thing through. Because of this we haven't seen them take on as much responsibility for the outcome as maybe we would, if things were different.

I guess ultimately my question is, if the Iraqis don't believe we will see this through and we don't have a plan to actually win the peace, how DO we see this through? When can we say, we saw it through to an acceptable conclusion for both Iraqis, Americans and the rest of the world?

I hope that wasn't too inarticulate.

"I actually voted for John Kerry, before I voted against him"

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Friday, October 22, 2004 11:24 AM

BIKISDAD

Very good observations and questions. The only thing you said that I would disagree with is where you said that the world is a safer place without Saddam Hussein. Saddam may have been a terrible despot, but he was not an "Islamic" extremist. In fact, those people (the ones we're now fighting in Iraq) were just as much of a threat to him as they are to us. That's why he held them under his thumb through brute force, torture, and murder. Our taking him out of power just let the proverbial genie out of the bottle. To me, that's one big step backward in the "war on terror".

And don't think I'm saying the above because I'm some Kerry supporter. I already voted for Bush by absentee ballot - obviously not because I think he's doing a good job with the Iraq war, but because I think his other policies are much better for the country. When it comes to Iraq though, big mistake. Big, big mistake.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Saturday, October 23, 2004 4:34 AM

CONNORFLYNN

Well. I think the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam, and I think the surrounding countries are better off, making us better off ultimately. The issue with the Islamic extremists in Iraq treads a thinner line. He MAY have kept them under his thumb, though I think he was more of an appeaser and colluded with them, not in the case of 9/11 IMHO.

"I actually voted for John Kerry, before I voted against him"

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Saturday, October 23, 2004 5:58 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
... though I think he was more of an appeaser and colluded with them ...

Just like he did between 1980-1988?

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Saturday, October 23, 2004 6:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Friday, October 22, 2004 14:27 TIMES READ: 77
I'm beginning to wonder..
CONNORFLYNN

I was and to a degree am still an advocate for the removal of Saddam Hussein from power. The world is a safer place without him

Seems everyone wants to have their cheese omlettes, but don't want to go through the messy process of breaking any eggs. Well, ya can't have both. Sorry.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, October 23, 2004 7:27 AM

GHOULMAN

Well, when I told you over and over that Iraq was a meat grinder for American troops did you think I was kidding? I'm glad you wrote this - maybe the Ghoulman was wrong about you? Oh man... will I have to eat crow here???

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
I was and to a degree am still an advocate for the removal of Saddam Hussein from power.

Well who the frell wasn't? Simply against the WAY the Bush/Cheney white house did it.

Quote:
The world is a safer place without him.

That statement has no basis in reality. The world didn't change one bit - the entire 90s went along just fine with Saddam where he was, bottled up in Bagdadh. Of course, everyone from me to the Islamists were for getting rid of Saddam. Everyone!

Quote:
However as the war progresses the more angry I become. I have a few friends over in Iraq and one that has returned severely injured by a mortar attack. I spend every day surfing the net researching politics and foreign policy.

There is this documentary by Micheal Moore...

Quote:
Yesterday I came to a painful realization about this administration's handling of the war, after speaking with the adoptive father of a young friend (I consider him a nephew)of mine who is currently battling insurgents outside of Fallujah. I used to play D&D with his adoptive father, while this scrawny little kid used to run around the basement (our gaming area) with his He-Man sword and shield , hooting and hollering while we killed orcs hehe.

Orcs *pffft*. Pit Fiends are a mans game.

Quote:
My friend told me Andy is scared shitless, with good reason. What really bothers me out about this, other then the obvious, is that he took the time to make out a will before he left. How many 19 year olds even think about wills, let alone creating one for themselves.

I hope Andy is all right. Prayers out.

An old man who was a bomber pilot in WWII once looked right at me saying "there are no athiests in foxholes". I spit right back at him, "that's because foxholes are full of boys crying for thier mothers you old f*ck".

Quote:
This revelation really made me reflect on what this war means and how it was planned.

Planned before 9/11. Funny that eh?

Quote:
I'm frustrated with what is becoming an increasing reality, this administration went to war without a complete plan.

Consiracy theories aside - seems they believed in the old "domino theory". Bring "democracy" to a nation and the joy will spread to others just as a Police Action in Vietnam years ago ment stopping the spread of communism.

Didn't work then. And now...

Note: Vietnam Vets don't get respect because it wasn't a war - no pention, no medal, etc. The Government still doesn't acknowlege the troops of that era.

Quote:
It was/is understood that we could win a military victory in Iraq or anywhere that we put our mind and hearts, after all America has the greatest trained and technologically advanced military on the planet.

Amazing, it's true that Americans believe thier own bullplop. The American Military is NOT the best. It's down the list and consistantly does poorly in competition. Worse, all that technology you brag about doesn't seem to be spilling out to the national guard down in the dust, is it? Ever wonder why? I could go on.

Quote:
Where the flaw lays with Iraq,in my opinion,

Blame anyone but America. Listen - YOUR "president" got you into this when the rest of Americas allies and even YOUR OWN MILITARY said it was insane. That Nation got it's food changed to "Freedom Fries" and that General was "retired". Is there a picutre forming for you here? The War in Iraq was run from the White House - not the Military.

Quote:
is the fact that we don't seem to have a plan to win the peace.

We? You were at the meetings with Cheney? Seems that Cheney and Bush just didn't care, they live in a fantasy world where everyone loves America and if they don't they are crazy ... or enemy combatants. The White House takes no advice from anyone, not the Military or people who, you know, KNOW! Those peopel are what Bush calls "college elite liars" instead of people who actually take the time to become experts on, oh say... the nation of Iraq.

Of course, if the White House had just asked even ONE Arab scolar they would be told right away that the ONLY desires the people of Iraq ever had were two things - Kill Saddam. Create an Islamic State.

Now, the first thing is a no brainer but the second thing was feared by the White House. Why? Because they don't care about what the people want, only what America wants. Or at least Haliberton.

Quote:
Andy has said and so have my other friends over there, that the Iraqis truly do appreciate our help,

Sure - in Bagdadh the old friends of the USA, Saddam's Bathist people, are thankful. But 80% of the REST of Iraq is Islamic Shiites, Kurds, etc. They have been murdered by Saddam for decades (with CIA help) and now the USA is just stepping in to do Saddams work. Basically, nothing has changed in that regard except the frequency of bombing. American bombing.

Again - White House policy here. Generals aren't happy about this "plan" as it's obvious even to them it isn't a plan at all. The troops are comming around to this realization too.

Quote:
but still don't trust that we will see this thing through. Because of this we haven't seen them take on as much responsibility for the outcome as maybe we would, if things were different.

The USA always betrayed the Islamic people. Bush Sr. told the Shia to f*ck off after the Gulf War when they (the Shiites) wanted to overthrow Saddam. The Kurds too. When Saddam gasses these "insurgents" the USA again didn't care. Then came the "Oil for Gas" deal through the UN. It's as if the USA hated the Iraqi people unless they were Saddams Iraqi people. The message was clear - but this isn't the story you hear on FOX. But it's the story Andy there is beginning to hear about down in the dust.

Quote:
I guess ultimately my question is, if the Iraqis don't believe we will see this through and we don't have a plan to actually win the peace, how DO we see this through?

There are no answers. Only death and pain. I can only pray with Kerry in the White House something will move to the possitive... if Kerry doesn't make things worse. It's impossible to tell.

Quote:
When can we say, we saw it through to an acceptable conclusion for both Iraqis, Americans and the rest of the world?

America has a looooong way to go. If nothing you do matters, then what you do is all that matters.

Quote:
I hope that wasn't too inarticulate.

Well, you are following a true conservitive streak developing in the USA right now. I'm not sure where you get your opinions (as your research implies) but at least you seem to be seeing the cracks in the Bush/Cheney reality - REAL reality is where American troops come home without legs, without eyes, and without hope for the future of the USA.

Not to mention the 50,000 dead Iraqis we never hear about on FOX, CNN, and the rest of the corproate propoganda in the USA.

Remember - defeating America has been done before, it's been proven. The world Americans believe can be pushed around by their military power doesn't exist - it's a fantasy. Basically - Bush/Cheney told people that America would sail into Iraq, drop down democracy, and the Iraqis would cheer and wave American flags (same rhetoric we heard in 1965). But, 80% of Iraq, IN REALITY, is an Islamic movement against Saddam who failed to change Iraq because of American betrayal and Saddams decades of death and oppression.

Rememebr - Saddam was a Stalinist. That's how he operated.

Instead of getting rid of Saddam the USA left thier old pal there to "stablize" the region because "Islamic States" are the enemy of America, like Iran. Saddam was anti-Islam (in spit of his lip service to Allah). Stupid but - that's foriegn policy from the Bush Family Dynasty and the old Nixen/Cheney crowd so famous for being totally ignorant criminals.

Right now the attacks on "insurgents" is really criminal suppression of the people of Iraq. The ones who aren't Bathist Saddam hangers on who sit in Bagdadh with thier American pals.

But on CNN and FOX we're told these "insurgents" are "a few" terrorists. They are consistantly described as being from Iran or Syria... as if they just took the frickin bus. Jesus! To top it all off, that Al-Zakiri guy, who is an Islamic leader in Falluja hoping to create an Islamic State, is consistantly called a leader of Al-Qaeda... BUT HE ISN'T. He has even spoke out against Al-Qaeda in the past. Rather like MOST Islamic groups have. But you'll never hear any of this on American TV. Luckily, the rest of the world (eg - Canadians like me) aren't living in the American cultural bubble. We aren't nearly as brainwashed (close, but not quite).

BTW, attacking Iraq wasn't just a distraction from getting terrorists, it's the worst thing America could have done. Basically you're now doomed to decades of hatred from a people who now have undeniable proof of American murder, bombing, torture, and every evil man can inflict on man. Gotta wonder if Bush/Cheney didn't simply want a continued state of fear and war.

Everyone knows that if you want to get to the heart of terrorism - it's in Saudi Arabia. The very centre of Islamic Terrorism isn't even Al-Queda (which is a loose collection of rich boy terror mongers formed around 1996) but the Wahabi movement in ... wait for it... Saudi Arabia.

I'm glad you have come around to seriously considering the reality of America and the rest of the world. Nice post Connorflynn

Free your mind - Morpheus.

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Saturday, October 23, 2004 4:05 PM

RICKKER

Ghoulman not all Americans are Bush/Chenney freindly. Not all of us are blind to what is going on there are a lot of us that are just to damn lazy to care. We are divided into basic three types 1. Bush. Rich Money is power and they'll use their position to get more.

2. there is a large number of people who have been brought up thinking that they don't have to work for anything they want whats "theirs" without any real effort. People who think of their kids as another check.

3. the rest of us we work hard we know right from wrong we try to leave this world a little better than we found it.

Many of us were against Bush from the beginning.
He was the least qualified for the job.
The U.S's entrance in Iraq was nothing but another move for more money by a bunch of money hungry power mad fools. Who benifitted from this little venture? Bush and his oil addict friends now have access to the worlds largest oil reserve. Lets not forget little ol' VP Chenney. After swearing to stay out of it Haliburton wins billions in contracts to rebuild Iraq.
I didn't get a chance to talk to my grandfather on the subject, but my dad has told me he saw it coming to. There is a revolution coming again to the US. Those of us who do the working / sacrificing for this country are going to get tired of supporting the can't and won'ts. Not all in America follow blindly.
But if you notice a lot of the highest rated TV programs are "reality" shows you'll see there are a lot of stupid people here.

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Monday, October 25, 2004 4:04 AM

GHOULMAN

^^^ oh yea! Well why did you poopheads vote in that thin lipped weasel for president of the United Sta ... oh wait.
Rosanne Rosanna Danna voice: "Nevermind".

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