REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

It's called

POSTED BY: RUE
UPDATED: Monday, August 15, 2005 09:31
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Friday, August 12, 2005 5:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


They’ve never had it so good. It never happened. It was just a book. It was just pranks. No one died. No one in charge knew. They're all terrorists. Saddam was worse. The Taliban was worse.

And Bush's favorite: it's not policy, it's rogue soldiers.


Even though it was shortened severely, this is a very long post. The temptation is to skip past the words and just read the headines. Try to read some of the more extended quotes. They describe in brutal detail the things that were done to prisoners, event by event, hour to hour, day by day. Relentless beatings are only a small part of the story, but the part that was the most frequent cause of death.

Summarized. Some links may not be active.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/08/12/MNG7UE6
R0J1.DTL

Don't show photos, top brass says Abu Ghraib images would threaten security
Julia Preston, New York Times
Friday, August 12, 2005
Senior Pentagon officials have opposed the release of photographs and videotapes of the abuse of inmates at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
The documents reveal both the high level and the determination of the Pentagon officials engaged in the effort to block the disclosure of the images, and their alarm at the prospect the photos might become public.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/08/national/nationalspecial3/08bagram.h
tml?th&emc=th
August 8, 2005
Abuse Cases Open Command Issues at Army Prison
By TIM GOLDEN
FORT BLISS, Tex., Aug. 4 - .. Last October, a final report by the Criminal Investigation Command of the Army recommended charges against 27 soldiers and officers. It said both deaths (at Bagram, Afghanistan) were primarily caused by severe trauma to the men's legs. (Described as being equivelent to having been run over by a bus by the ME.)
Along with other information that has emerged, trial testimony has underscored a question long at the core of this case: what is the responsibility of more senior military personnel for the abuses that took place?
(Some officers) said some of the methods that prosecutors have cited as a basis for criminal charges, including chaining prisoners to the ceilings of isolation cells for long periods, were either standard practice at the prison or well-known to those who oversaw it.

And in detail:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8918.htm
May 20, 2005
In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths
By TIM GOLDEN

Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him.

The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.

Mr. Dilawar asked for a drink of water, and one of the two interrogators, Specialist Joshua R. Claus, 21, picked up a large plastic bottle. But first he punched a hole in the bottom, the interpreter said, so as the prisoner fumbled weakly with the cap, the water poured out over his orange prison scrubs. The soldier then grabbed the bottle back and began squirting the water forcefully into Mr. Dilawar's face.

"Come on, drink!" the interpreter said Specialist Claus had shouted, as the prisoner gagged on the spray. "Drink!"

At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling.

"Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying.

Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.

(After his capture) (w)hen one of the First Platoon M.P.'s, Specialist Corey E. Jones, was sent to Mr. Dilawar's cell to give him some water, he said the prisoner spit in his face and started kicking him. Specialist Jones responded, he said, with a couple of knee strikes to the leg of the shackled man.

"He screamed out, 'Allah! Allah! Allah!' and my first reaction was that he was crying out to his god," Specialist Jones said to investigators. "Everybody heard him cry out and thought it was funny."

Other Third Platoon M.P.'s later came by the detention center and stopped at the isolation cells to see for themselves, Specialist Jones said.

It became a kind of running joke, and people kept showing up to give this detainee a common peroneal strike just to hear him scream out 'Allah,' " he said. "It went on over a 24-hour period, and I would think that it was over 100 strikes."



Documents from the investigation suggest that Mr. Habibullah was captured by an Afghan warlord on Nov. 28, 2002, and delivered to Bagram by C.I.A. operatives two days later. His well-being at that point is a matter of dispute.

The communication between Mr. Habibullah and his jailers appears to have been almost exclusively physical. Despite repeated requests, the M.P.'s were assigned no interpreters of their own. Instead, they borrowed from the interrogators when they could and relied on prisoners who spoke even a little English to translate for them.

By the morning of Dec. 2, witnesses told the investigators, Mr. Habibullah was coughing and complaining of chest pains. He limped into the interrogation room in shackles, his right leg stiff and his right foot swollen. The lead interrogator, Sergeant Leahy, let him sit on the floor because he could not bend his knees and sit in a chair.

The interpreter who was on hand, Ebrahim Baerde, said the interrogators had kept their distance that day "because he was spitting up a lot of phlegm."

"They were laughing and making fun of him, saying it was 'gross' or 'nasty,' " Mr. Baerde said.

When Sgt. James P. Boland saw Mr. Habibullah on Dec. 3, he was in one of the isolation cells, tethered to the ceiling by two sets of handcuffs and a chain around his waist. His body was slumped forward, held up by the chains.

When Specialist Cammack turned back toward the prisoner, he said in one statement, Mr. Habibullah's spit hit his chest. Later, Specialist Cammack acknowledged, "I'm not sure if he spit at me." But at the time, he exploded, yelling, "Don't ever spit on me again!" and kneeing the prisoner sharply in the thigh, "maybe a couple" of times. Mr. Habibullah's limp body swayed back and forth in the chains.

When Sergeant Boland returned to the cell some 20 minutes later, he said, Mr. Habibullah was not moving and had no pulse. Finally, the prisoner was unchained and laid out on the floor of his cell.

In some instances, testimony shows, (abuse) was directed or carried out by interrogators to extract information. In others, it was punishment meted out by military police guards. Sometimes, the torment seems to have been driven by little more than boredom or cruelty, or both.

In sworn statements to Army investigators, soldiers describe one female interrogator with a taste for humiliation stepping on the neck of one prostrate detainee and kicking another in the genitals. They tell of a shackled prisoner being forced to roll back and forth on the floor of a cell, kissing the boots of his two interrogators as he went. Yet another prisoner is made to pick plastic bottle caps out of a drum mixed with excrement and water as part of a strategy to soften him up for questioning.

.. the Bagram file includes ample testimony that harsh treatment by some interrogators was routine and that guards could strike shackled detainees with virtual impunity. Prisoners considered important or troublesome were also handcuffed and chained to the ceilings and doors of their cells, sometimes for long periods, an action Army prosecutors recently classified as criminal assault.

Some of the mistreatment was quite obvious, the file suggests. Senior officers frequently toured the detention center, and several of them acknowledged seeing prisoners chained up for punishment or to deprive them of sleep. Shortly before the two deaths, observers from the International Committee of the Red Cross specifically complained to the military authorities at Bagram about the shackling of prisoners in "fixed positions," documents show.

.. Nor were the rules of engagement very clear. .. But with President Bush's final determination in February 2002 that the Conventions did not apply to the conflict with Al Qaeda and that Taliban fighters would not be accorded the rights of prisoners of war, the interrogators believed they "could deviate slightly from the rules," said one of the Utah reservists, Sgt. James A. Leahy.

"There was the Geneva Conventions for enemy prisoners of war, but nothing for terrorists," Sergeant Leahy told Army investigators. And the detainees, senior intelligence officers said, were to be considered terrorists until proved otherwise.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005
080201941_pf.html

On the morning of Nov. 26, 2003, a U.S. Army interrogator and a military guard grabbed a green sleeping bag, stuffed Mowhoush inside, wrapped him in an electrical cord, laid him on the floor and began to go to work. Again.

It was inside the sleeping bag that the 56-year-old detainee took his last breath through broken ribs, lying on the floor beneath a U.S. soldier in Interrogation Room 6 in the western Iraqi desert. Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents.

Hours after Mowhoush's death in U.S. custody on Nov. 26, 2003, military officials issued a news release stating that the prisoner had died of natural causes after complaining of feeling sick.

The U.S. military initially told reporters that Mowhoush had been captured during a raid. In reality, he had walked into the Forward Operating Base "Tiger" in Qaim on Nov. 10, 2003, hoping to speak with U.S. commanders to secure the release of his sons, who had been arrested in raids 11 days earlier.

It was a time when U.S. interrogators were coming up with their own tactics to get detainees to talk, many of which they considered logical interpretations of broad-brush categories in the Army Field Manual, with labels such as "fear up" or "pride and ego down" or "futility."

Other tactics, such as some of those seen at Abu Ghraib, had been approved for one detainee at Guantanamo Bay and found their way to Iraq. Still others have been linked to official Pentagon guidance on specific techniques, such as the use of dogs.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/23/politics/23abuse.html?th&emc=th&oref
=login
July 23, 2005
Government Defies an Order to Release Iraq Abuse Photos
By KATE ZERNIKE
Lawyers for the Defense Department are refusing to cooperate with a federal judge's order to release secret photographs and videotapes related to the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal. The photographs were some of thousands turned over by Specialist Joseph M. Darby, the whistle-blower who exposed the abuse at Abu Ghraib by giving investigators computer disks containing photographs and videos of prisoners being abused, sexually humiliated and threatened with growling dogs.



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/13/international/middleeast/13habib.htm
l?th

February 13, 2005
Detainee Says He Was Tortured While in U.S. Custody
By RAYMOND BONNER
SYDNEY, Australia, Feb. 12 - Mamdouh Habib still has a bruise on his lower back. He says it is a sign of the beatings he endured in a prison in Egypt. Interrogators there put out cigarettes on his chest, he says, and he lifts his shirt to show the marks. He says he got the dark spot on his forehead when Americans hit his head against the floor at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.
After being arrested in Pakistan in the weeks after Sept. 11, 2001, he was held as a terror suspect by the Americans for 40 months. Back home now, Mr. Habib alleges that at every step of his detention - from Pakistan, to Egypt, to Afghanistan, to Guantánamo - he endured physical and psychological abuse.
The physical abuse, he said, ranged from a kick "that nearly killed me" to electric shocks administered through a wired helmet that he said interrogators told him could detect whether he was lying.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50F14F83B5D0C758CDDA80
894DD404482
Newly Released Reports Show Early Concern on Prison Abuse
ABSTRACT - Abuse of prisoners involved multiple service branches in Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba, beginning in 2002 and continuing after Congress and military began investigating Abu Ghraib; thousands of pages in military reports and documents released under Freedom of Information Act

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0119-09.htm
International Herald Tribune
CIA Called Exempt From Torture Ban 01/19/05
Officers of the Central Intelligence Agency and other nonmilitary personnel fall outside the bounds of a 2002 directive issued by President George W. Bush that pledged the humane treatment of prisoners in U.S. custody, Alberto Gonzales, the White House counsel, said in a document. Gonzales also said a separate congressional ban on cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment had "a limited reach" and did not apply in all cases to "aliens overseas."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60C10FE395C0C748DDDA80
894DD404482
NYTimes
THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ: ABU GHRAIB SCANDAL; High-Ranking Officers May Face Prosecution in Iraqi Prisoner Abuse, Military Officials Say
DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 1083 WORDS - The Army reservist accused of being the ringleader of the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison failed to convince a jury he was following orders when he mistreated detainees, but higher-ranked officers still may be prosecuted.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0C1EFD3F5C0C778DDDA80
894DD404482
Justice Dept. Opens Inquiry Into Abuse of U.S. Detainees
ABSTRACT - Justice Department opens investigation into reports from FBI about military's use of coercive and abusive tactics against prisoners held in American custody at Guantanamo Bay and in Iraq; inquiry will examine whether bureau agents took part in any improper methods of interrogation at prisons and how reports of abuse witnessed by agents were handled; parallels separate investigation by military into tactics used at Guantanamo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/25/international/middleeast/25abuse.htm
l?oref=login&th
A.C.L.U. Presents Accusations of Serious Abuse of Iraqi Civilians
... describing complaints of serious abuse of Iraqi civilians, including reports of electric shocks and forced sodomy, and accused the military of not thoroughly investigating the cases. The more than 4,000 pages of documents were released by the Army. The new accusations generally concern the behavior of American Special Forces, as opposed to prison guards or interrogators, who have been accused at Abu Ghraib.




May 18, 2004 |

THE GRAY ZONE
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib.
Issue of 2004-05-24
Posted 2004-05-15
The roots of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal lie not in the criminal inclinations of a few Army reservists but in a decision, approved last year by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to expand a highly secret operation, which had been focussed on the hunt for Al Qaeda, to the interrogation of prisoners in Iraq. Rumsfeld’s decision embittered the American intelligence community, damaged the effectiveness of élite combat units, and hurt America’s prospects in the war on terror.
According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, the Pentagon’s operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq. A senior C.I.A. official, in confirming the details of this account last week, said that the operation stemmed from Rumsfeld’s long-standing desire to wrest control of America’s clandestine and paramilitary operations from the C.I.A. ..


It's called "torture" Mr. Bush
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=5082



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, August 12, 2005 6:53 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Seriously, what do you expect from this thread, Rue? The minute the wingnuts see what you posted in this thread, one of two things will happen:
1) The spin machine to make all those facts look inconsequential will begin in earnest, and before you know it the thread will be completely off-topic, or
2) The wingnuts will just put their collective hands over their collective internet ears and shout "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, IT'S A FRAT PRANK LALALALALALA"

Those of us that knew there was going to be trouble when the administration (particularly our new AG) said that the Geneva Convention was irrelevant predicted stuff like this was going to happen. The rest are so firmly in the administration's pocket that GW could gun down a busload of nuns on Constitution Avenue at high noon on a sunday and they would find a way to justify it. If people haven't woken up by now, I don't think this thread is going to do it.

I mean, really- we have people in this country actually justifying torture or nuking civilians so that we can "win." Let me say this: When we are telling ourselves that mercy, compassion, honesty, and restraint are unnecessary and unwanted, I assure you- we've already "lost."

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Friday, August 12, 2005 8:03 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
I mean, really- we have people in this country actually justifying torture or nuking civilians so that we can "win." Let me say this: When we are telling ourselves that mercy, compassion, honesty, and restraint are unnecessary and unwanted, I assure you- we've already "lost."


But the question remains. Can we bring it back? Is it too late? Obviously Rue is thinking we can or there'd be no point in posting this. People will wake up, if they do, one person at a time. I think it's worth fighting for myself and as much as people might say posting on a message board is pointless. I disagree. Working out these ideas and debating them changes minds. If not here, then somewhere else where we might use what we've learned here.


SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, August 12, 2005 8:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I heard recently that among the photos and videotapes of Abu Ghraib that were NOT released (remember- we were allowed to see only the least offensive) were pix of children being raped in fron of their parents.

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Friday, August 12, 2005 9:21 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I posted it b/c there's been a lot of news over the months that undeniably demonstrate: it was torture. It was as brutal, brutalizing, perverse .... as anything the Taliban or Hussein practiced. It was at GITMO, Bagram, Abu Ghraib, rendition countries, and other places not mentioned by name. And it was on purpose, by policy.

I don't expect agreement, and I'm not going to be wasting my time debating this either.

I only posted to hold up a mirror: that maybe those folks for whom torture was all just fine might catch a candid glimpse of what they approve. In the hopes of achieving just a split second recognition of unposed, unrehearsed --- truth. Before the eyes glaze over and the mind gets busy remembering all the spin it is supposed to think.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 7:03 AM

CHRISISALL


This is all made up. The documents were all falsified, the pictures all photoshopped. This is all part of an anti-American plot to weaken us further. It is insideous and widespread. It is well co-ordinated. It is a left wing conspiracy.

But wait. The right wing doesn't believe in conspiracies.

So if it's not a conspiracy, it must be....true...

So now the right wing thinkers have a choice: is this acceptable, or not?

Let's not BS with the 'things like this happen' crap. Time to call it. Is this what America should be doing? Is this what we stand for?



if your answer is yes Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 7:41 AM

SERGEANTX


I keep thinking of the Pink Floyd song "On the Turning Away".

Damn Rue, what'd you have to go and post this for? Nevermind I know why. .... and thank you.



SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 8:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sorry, it's not torture..

When asking what REAL torture is, ask yourself these questions...

How many men had their hands crudely removed by 'doctors', and video taped for the aproval of President Bush? None ? You're right.

How many men were fed feet first into industrial sized chippers ? None? You're right again.

See, we'll agree there are some sick puppies who got caught doing things they might not should have done. Those folks will get punished. Unlike the folks who sawed off body parts for Saddam.

But remember, many of these folks have had years of brutal training in terrorist camps, to endure all sorts of questioning. They want to kill you and your loved ones. So, don't feel too much pity for them.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 8:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The point well-made by a previous poster (and I forget who- my apologies) is: Are we letting the standard of our behavior be determined by the lowest of the low? As long as we're "not as bad as {fill in the blank}" we're OK?


Hmmm... I thought right-wingers didn't believe in moral relativism? Oh, but who am I kidding? Morals are a mere convenience at that end of the political spectrum. Let's yelp about abortion and bomb the snot out of babies. Let's not teach Darwinism is science but set it up in society. Truth is whatever gets the job done. Let's bray about liberty while we round up, detain and torture the innocent along with the guilty. Terri Schiavo deserved every last gasp attempt but if you don't have health insurance, may as well die in a diabetic coma.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm tired of the rationalizing, finessing and sheer out-and-out schizophrenia of the right-wing mind . Y'all remind me of nothing more than a bunch of .... Boy, you really don't want me to say what. And then we wonder why "they" hate us so much.

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 8:22 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry, it's not torture..

Come on... If you want to point out that we're not as bad as the examples you cite, if you want to argue that this is not supported by our leadership, I'll listen. But to say this isn't torture?? Let me ask you this. Are the incidents at Abu Ghraib something that you would stand by and let happen if you had the power to stop them?
Quote:
But remember, many of these folks have had years of brutal training in terrorist camps, to endure all sorts of questioning. They want to kill you and your loved ones. So, don't feel too much pity for them.

But many of them aren't terrorists. We've been broad in our efforts to make sure we get most of the bad guys, which I believe is the right thing to do in wartime. But that means we've almost certainly swept up many who aren't terrorists. Maybe we can't know for sure until we torture it out of them, but isn't that a road we'd rather not go down?

At this point we have a real problem with all the unreleased documentation of abuses. The reactions of the congressmen (and even Rumsfeld) indicate that the unreleased stuff is much worse than what we've seen. And what we've seen is bad enough. The dilemma is that releasing this stuff will provoke moral outrage both in this country and abroad. It could get our soldiers killed. But not releasing it leaves people to their imaginations, which might be even worse. The decision not to release leads me to believe they've concluded we're better off left imagining what might have happened. Is the reality of it really that gruesome?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:11 AM

MOHRSTOUTBEARD


Oh, Mama, can this really be the end? To be stuck inside of America with the Orwell blues again. . .?

------------------
"You've just gotta go ahead and change the captain of your brainship, because he's drunk at the wheel."

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:
Sorry, it's not torture.
So Auraptor, it is your contention that being systematically beaten to death over the course of several days is not torture? I just want it to be clear to everyone that this is what you mean.

I only cited a few examples. I did not include mass murder (stuffing a couple hundred men into an air deficient container and closing the doors for - days.) Nor did I inlude rape, electric shock, suffocation and other techniques. So, again, just to be clear to everyone, would you also contend that this is not torture?


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:16 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Auraptor, if this is what you truly believe, then have the courage of conviction. Stand up and say it loudly and proudly!

If not, maybe we can agree that these were horrible things that should not have happened, and discuss how events could have gone so hideously wrong.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:01 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm tired of the rationalizing, finessing and sheer out-and-out schizophrenia of the right-wing mind . Y'all remind me of nothing more than a bunch of ....
Twisted little bullies in a schoolyard beating up on the littlest kids and rationalizing that it's okay 'cause you're not hitting them as hard as you got beat the night before by your dads.

Too scared to think your way out of problems.

And torture is similar to rape. You can be invaded while being restrained, and you can be beaten to death during, the question is: how would you like your rape?

An IDIOT question; NOT AT ALL.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
They want to kill you and your loved ones. So, don't feel too much pity for them.

Yeah, I saw my address on their mission statement.
How about getting real about it.
I'd rather see some terrorists escape capture if it meant some absolutly innocent human beings didn't have to suffer and die, but that's just me. I'm like that, wantin' to see the innocent not get persecuted for nothing. It's a weakness of my left brain, I guess. I should have that looked into sos I'd have no problem seein' any of 'them' in need of payback across the board including turning the middle east into a glass sculpture, right?

Sorry, collaterial damage in the numbers I've seen over the years is just another term for sloppy plans and careless execution. We could at LEAST try for a standard after the shooting...

Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:22 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Funny how folks pick out parts they don't like, and then comment on select parts.

I'm not excusing what a few ( yes,few ) rogue soldiers/civilian contractors did. They thankfully were caught and will be punished. As they should be. We'll agree on that.

But to paint w/ a over sized brush that the U.S. is no different than what Saddam did, or that such horrific acts are representitive of who we are as a people, then I've gotta call BULL.

There are armies of propaganda teams out there trying to discredit the US at every turn. Some of them right here in the US do so merely for the sake of their own political gain. To lend credence to such stories and ignore the real horrors that occured under Saddams reign is a tragic disservice to human kind.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:25 PM

R1Z


AURAPTOR said, "But remember, many of these folks have had years of brutal training in terrorist camps, to endure all sorts of questioning. They want to kill you and your loved ones. So, don't feel too much pity for them."

OK, just for the sake of discussion, here. If "many of these folks have had years of brutal training in terrorist camps, to endure all sorts of questioning.", then the "some" who are not part of the "many" have had NO training in how to endure abuse/torture/painful but acceptable questioning (depending on your source). Is it ok to sweep them in with the rest? Are we absolutely positive that every single victim was a bad guy? I think not.

I always thought our system of justice was predicated on the concept that it was better to let 10 bad guys go free than to punish ONE innocent man. Or does that only apply to english speakers with lily-white skins?

Ignoring/subverting the Geneva Conventions sends the messsage that it's ok to treat all captured prisoners this way, including American service members, not just in this war/conflict/police action, but in the next.

Fear for your sons.


To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:47 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But to paint w/ a over sized brush that the U.S. is no different than what Saddam did, or that such horrific acts are representitive of who we are as a people, then I've gotta call BULL.
How many constitutes 'a few'? The numbers of incidents and severity of same suggest POLICY, and policy IS representative of US!!!

Sorry to come on so strong, I just don't understand the inability to recognize when something is wrong, and needs attention...



What? I've been stabbed? Well, I trust my body not to bleed TOO much, and I won't offend my body by going to a hospital, I'm not anti-me for Gods sake Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:54 PM

CHRISISALL


I'm getting a little mean now, and I'm sorry. I'm gonna back off this for a bit.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 2:41 PM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I heard recently that among the photos and videotapes of Abu Ghraib that were NOT released (remember- we were allowed to see only the least offensive) were pix of children being raped in fron of their parents.


That is absolutely true. Saddam's people reularly used the facility for all sorts of torture including what you described.

Thank God we liberated Iraq and put a stop to it.

H

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 3:57 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:
That is absolutely true. Saddam's people reularly used the facility for all sorts of torture including what you described.

Thank God we liberated Iraq and put a stop to it.
Well Hero finally said something I can agree with. The US put a stop to Hussein. Too bad it took up his torture predilictions.

But it goes beyond Abu Ghraib. None of the detailed stories posted were from there. Two were at Bagram, one at US forward base at Qaim, and one in Guantanamo and Egypt.


You need to brush up on your geography.

And Hero, I did you a favor responding to you. Most people have written you off as a troll.



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 4:19 PM

SERGEANTX


Many are assuming that the bulk of the abuses are being investigated and prosecuted when appropriate. It's hard to know how valid that assumption is, but it seems obvious they're not addressing the overall policy decisions that may have led to this.

The Jags warned the Bush administration in no uncertain terms that pulling back from the Geneva conventions, even a little, would present a real danger of the kind of abuses we're seeing. Those warnings were disregarded quite deliberately at the highest levels of the executive branch and someone should be held accountable. Unfortunately, taking responsibility for mistakes in judgement hasn't been a hallmark of this administration.

EDIT: to add- More importantly the administration needs to make clear and demonstrable changes in the policy to set things right. But since that would require the aforementioned acceptance of responsibility, this isn't likely to happen either. How in the world can people hold Bush's crew up as the moral alternative???

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 4:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM: I heard recently that among the photos and videotapes of Abu Ghraib that were NOT released (remember- we were allowed to see only the least offensive) were pix of children being raped in fron of their parents.

Hero: That is absolutely true. Saddam's people reularly used the facility for all sorts of torture including what you described. Thank God we liberated Iraq and put a stop to it.


Warning- Flamebait


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Saturday, August 13, 2005 4:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I'm not excusing what a few ( yes,few ) rogue soldiers/civilian contractors did. They thankfully were caught and will be punished. As they should be. We'll agree on that.

But to paint w/ a over sized brush that the U.S. is no different than what Saddam did, or that such horrific acts are representitive of who we are as a people, then I've gotta call BULL.
Auraptor- since torture occurred at (as far as I can tell) ALL detention centers in US control, then there was either an INEXCUSABLE breakdown in discipline across the board which merits immediate attention, or it resulted from policy. Which is it?

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Auraptor- since torture occurred at (as far as I can tell) ALL detention centers in US control, then there was either an INEXCUSABLE breakdown in discipline across the board which merits immediate attention, or it resulted from policy. Which is it?



I can't presume that any 'torture' has occurred in all facilities. Where crimes have occured though, those involved should be punished. We'll agree there.

There are jails and prisons here in the U.S. Every once in a while, a story comes out about how som guards mistreated a prisoner. We'll agree that the guards should be punished. But what of his boss? Punish the captain of the guards? What about the Warden? What of the Superintendent of Prisons? And the Gov? Oh, maybe all the way up to the President? I hpe you see how ridiculous this issue can become.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:39 PM

SERGEANTX


Auraptor,

Do you acknowledge the changes in policy that marginalized the Geneva Conventions? When our leaders are openly pushing for more aggressive interogation techniques, openly question the traditional restrictions on torture that we helped formulate, don't you think that is going create an atmosphere where these abuses are more likely? If these decisions hadn't been made, I'd agree with you, it's ridiculous to hold high level officers and political leaders responsible for the depraved acts of individual soldiers.

But there's damn good reason to believe that the changed interrogation directives had a lot to do with the abuses. It's not just some liberal attack or conspiracy theory.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05196/538359.stm

This really needs to be fixed, regardless of which side you're on. It's not about smearing the president, or the military. We need to reign this in before we've lost all credibility worldwide. It's bad enough as it is.



SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:00 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well Hero finally said something I can agree with. The US put a stop to Hussein. Too bad it took up his torture predilictions.

The US made torture the exception rather the the rule. We further enforce the Uniform Code of Military Justice against those caught engaging in such illegal actions. Under Saddam and the Taliban, such actions were legal and as regular and common as traffic court is here in the US.

Quote:

But it goes beyond Abu Ghraib. None of the detailed stories posted were from there. Two were at Bagram, one at US forward base at Qaim, and one in Guantanamo and Egypt.

I agree. We need to make sure our people obey the rule of law regardless of where such violations occur.

It may surprise you but as a lawyer I completely disagree with this notion of denying an enemy combatant civil rights simply because they are either a foriegn citizen or are held outside the US (like in Gitmo). The Constitution makes no such distinction. It says all "persons" not all citizens and makes referance to being within the "power" of the United States, not merely in its borders.

I disagree with certain notions of providing detainees with the same level of access to the courts as those of us here in the US. Seems to me we could, however, do a better job of achieving an equitable balance between their rights as persons and the necessity of war.
Quote:

And Hero, I did you a favor responding to you. Most people have written you off as a troll.

Your too good to me. If I stopped writting simply because other disagree with me, that just wouldn't be right.

I have in the past had very fruitful discussions with most of the left-leaning members of the board, discussions that I greatly appreciate. Its only one or two that seem to have a consistant problem allowing others to disagree with them.

Minority opinions such as mine on some issues and yours on others both serve vital roles in the political discourse. We should encourage them and each other no matter how wrong you turn out to be (ha ha).

H

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Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Auraptor-
Quote:
I can't presume that any 'torture' has occurred in all facilities. Where crimes have occured though...
I guess this means that we are at least past the point where you recognise that torture has occurred at least at SOME facilities. Well, that's progress I guess
Quote:
There are jails and prisons here in the U.S. Every once in a while, a story comes out about how som guards mistreated a prisoner. We'll agree that the guards should be punished. But what of his boss? Punish the captain of the guards? What about the Warden? What of the Superintendent of Prisons?
etc. The answer is- yes. I'm a supervisor and if my staff screws up it's my fault as well. And if my staff screws up a LOT then it's my manager's fault for not keeping ME on-track, and so on up the line. It's somewhere between "the buck stops here" and "total quality management" and it goes doubly for the military which has much stronger internal authority than any civilian organization. And if you were to tell me that the problem was with reservists and civilian contractors, then I would ask- who was responsible for bringing reservists and civilian contractors into the war in such a big way in the first place? (Rumsfeld)

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Sunday, August 14, 2005 1:48 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Mohrstoutbeard: Awesome Dylan reference- I laughed out loud when I saw it -

Now on to business - I rest my case Rue, in what I said at the beginning of your thread- Auraptor basically came out and said that beating someone to death was a deranged act, but wasn't torture, because beating someone to death is only toture if it happens under someone else's regime- It's those kinds of perfect 10 scoring mental gymnastics that let our gov't get away with stuff like that -
And whoever it was that said it, Signy or Sarge- I agree 100% with you - When employees consistently or flagrantly violate rules, they aren't the only ones fired in the real world - Their bosses and often their bosses' bosses are fired as well- Someone is supposed to be watching them- So how is it that when this goes on in the military, it isn't the responsibility of the higher ups for some reason? Where were their comanding officers when this was going on? Answer: There is no (and probably never will be any) accountability in this administration, especially since the admin's most ardent supporters continue to believe that what we are doing is acceptable-

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:40 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
...the admin's most ardent supporters continue to believe that what we are doing is acceptable.

This is key. I think 9/11 really tipped the balance for a lot of people. And I can honestly understand why, but it's not good. I really think, that for many, "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" has become more than just hyperbole. They won't, usually, be willing to say this out loud, but I do think a great many of them know that what we're doing is wrong and they just don't care. They think it's justifiable revenge or somesuch.

If I'm right, it means the terrorists really have been able to damage our society deeply. I keep hoping it will be self-correcting at some point. I hope we can turn it around before we do a complete nosedive into fascism. But I don't know.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:36 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
This is key. I think 9/11 really tipped the balance for a lot of people. And I can honestly understand why, but it's not good. I really think, that for many, "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" has become more than just hyperbole. They won't, usually, be willing to say this out loud, but I do think a great many of them know that what we're doing is wrong and they just don't care. They think it's justifiable revenge or somesuch.

If I'm right, it means the terrorists really have been able to damage our society deeply. I keep hoping it will be self-correcting at some point. I hope we can turn it around before we do a complete nosedive into fascism. But I don't know.

I completely agree with your first paragraph and couldn't disagree more with the lead sentence of your second paragraph .

What the terrorists have been able to do is kill Americans. Everything else that happened after that, we did to our own selves. Any damage that has been done to our society was done by Americans. Whether it is the erosion of privacy and the taking away of certain freedoms in an effort to feel safer. Whether it is the abdication of our foreign policy to PNAC and their dreams of Mideast Empire. Whether it is turning our back on the Geneva Convention and endorsing torture. And all the other changes that have been made since 9/11 that move our society in a disturbing direction. The good news is that we can reverse and move our country back in a healthier direction. The bad news is that many Americans may not want to. But I refuse to give the terrorists credit for changing our society. They're murderers. That's it.

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Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:49 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
What the terrorists have been able to do is kill Americans. Everything else that happened after that, we did to our own selves. Any damage that has been done to our society was done by Americans. Whether it is the erosion of privacy and the taking away of certain freedoms in an effort to feel safer. Whether it is the abdication of our foreign policy to PNAC and their dreams of Mideast Empire. Whether it is turning our back on the Geneva Convention and endorsing torture. And all the other changes that have been made since 9/11 that move our society in a disturbing direction. The good news is that we can reverse and move our country back in a healthier direction. The bad news is that many Americans may not want to. But I refuse to give the terrorists credit for changing our society. They're murderers. That's it.


That's a good point. And an important distinction to make because we have to admit it's been our own fear/anger/grief that's driven the changes before we can effectively reverse them.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:34 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Yeah, I tend to see our history in terms of vectors. We move in one direction until we reach the point where a majority of us think we've gone far enough and then we start moving back. Somewhere in there is a centerline that reflects the ideal of America. Occasionally that centerline gets radically shifted (emancipation, suffrage, worker protection, equal rights, etc). And often that centerline falls far short of our potential.

In my opinion, we all got out of whack after 9/11. And we've gotten pretty far away from what I think of as the American ideal. And it's going to take a majority of us waking up and saying, "Too far."

In the case of this particular topic, torture, I feel we need to lay everything on the table. Publish the pictures, the videos, all the accounts. Then let's have a dialogue as a country and decide whether or not this is something we should be doing. My hope is that we all take a collective deep breath and agree that this is not behavior we should be engaging in. Let other countries torture, rape, and kill their prisoners of war. Let other countries deport their prisoners of war to allies who will do the dirty work for them. Let other countries hold people in secret without putting them on trial. We need to stop now. We're better than this.

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Monday, August 15, 2005 7:21 AM

HERO


Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

That's a good point. And an important distinction to make because we have to admit it's been our own fear/anger/grief that's driven the changes before we can effectively reverse them.


I agree, but it drives both sides of a discussion. In many ways fear/anger/grief drives resistance to meaningful changes before we can implement them.

Take the example of singling out certain ethnic groups for greater scrutiny in airports. Racial profiling is as wrong as any wrong that exists in American society. Statistical profiling, however, is a reasonable and neccessary safety precaution. Yet they are essentially the same act. One merely has a emotional context that rightly drives resistance it the policy.

Our goal should not be to eliminate, prevent, or even enact an effective policy, but rather to remove the emotional context, so that the policy's merits are more easily judged.

H

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Monday, August 15, 2005 7:56 AM

SERGEANTX


Someone needs notify Haken that we have a hacker on the site. Someone has hijacked Hero's account!

Well, whoever you are, I totally agree. In fact, I'm actually more comfortable with reasonably implemented profiling, with healthy respect for the presumption of innocence, than I am with the 'random' searches that are being held up as 'fair and balanced' or somesuch. Like any potentially intrusive law enforcement, it needs to be kept on a short leash, but if you have a reasonable decription of a suspect its stupid to waste time on people who obviously don't fit that description.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, August 15, 2005 9:31 AM

PERFESSERGEE


Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Yeah, I tend to see our history in terms of vectors. We move in one direction until we reach the point where a majority of us think we've gone far enough and then we start moving back. Somewhere in there is a centerline that reflects the ideal of America. Occasionally that centerline gets radically shifted (emancipation, suffrage, worker protection, equal rights, etc). And often that centerline falls far short of our potential.

In my opinion, we all got out of whack after 9/11. And we've gotten pretty far away from what I think of as the American ideal. And it's going to take a majority of us waking up and saying, "Too far."

In the case of this particular topic, torture, I feel we need to lay everything on the table. Publish the pictures, the videos, all the accounts. Then let's have a dialogue as a country and decide whether or not this is something we should be doing. My hope is that we all take a collective deep breath and agree that this is not behavior we should be engaging in. Let other countries torture, rape, and kill their prisoners of war. Let other countries deport their prisoners of war to allies who will do the dirty work for them. Let other countries hold people in secret without putting them on trial. We need to stop now. We're better than this.


Well said, Soupcatcher (your previous post, too). The debate should be about what kind of people we want to be, not whether we are as bad as someone else or not. I don't want "torturing, lying, greedy ba****ds" to be the usual descriptors levied against my country. And "not quite as bad as the next guy" is way too close for me.

And, as for useful descriptors of what constitutes torture, I think one ought to ask the question: "Would you allow it to be applied to your daughter (or son) on the off chance that she/he might thereby be induced to supply some useful information to an enemy?". If you can't honestly answer "yes", then it's torture. And I don't think many of us would answer in the affirmative.

perfessergee

(PS, if you're currently occupying the Disssertation Cave, you have my deepest sympathies. I remember its ugly topography all too well.......... Good luck!)

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