Iraqi WMD's non-existence still confounding some buggers Part II by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iraqi WMD's non-existence still confounding some buggers Part II

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 15:09
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Friday, September 14, 2007 3:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

In our last story.... www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=30342

Quote:
I haven't exactly got and answer from Finn about the "American values" he thinks need to be supported, or exported. Finn?-signy

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Many people who are 'successful' in business do so at the expense of others; being a 'successful' business person in the US today does not necessarily equate to being principled. Look at various discussions regarding the housing bubble (either here, or at the 'economy roars on part 2' I forget which) to get a sense of what I'm referring to. -LeadB

So? It doesn’t not equate to being principled either. A lot of people work hard to develop connections. It’s actually called “networking.” And if you fail to take legal advantage of your connections or you have some conviction that there’s something wrong with taking legal advantage of your connections, that’s up to you. If you’d walk away from an easy legal 10 grand for no other reason than that you have some moral issue with connections, then I might be surprised by that – in fact, I might considered that foolish.-Finn

I'd be interested to know how you felt about Bush's 'service' in the National Guard to avoid the draft during the Vietnam era.-LeadB

He served his country in the Air National Guard. That’s a good thing.-Finn

Finn, I'm hoping we can get a good discussion going on "American values"

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, September 14, 2007 4:41 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:

If you’d walk away from an easy legal 10 grand for no other reason than that you have some moral issue with connections, then I might be surprised by that – in fact, I might considered that foolish.-Finn

Okay maybe this is a little unrealistic, but in this world it's all about connections- who you align yourself with. Who you might be selling your soul to.
I would expect a man to walk away from an easy legal 10 grand if it had questionable sources, especially if he was rich already. I know, not exactly a Jayne-like attitude. But those in public service should stay as clean as possible (now I'm in Fantasy Island myself

).

The plane! Chrisisall

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Friday, September 14, 2007 6:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

VETERAN:
It's about creating an environment where "terror" pervades, and the excuse for invading our privacy, restricting our freedoms, and lying to us about these efforts is justfied because "We're at war!"

"He who sacrifices liberty for security deserves neither." - Benjamin Franklin

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HERO:
"The Constitution is not a suicide pact."- Justice Robert Jackson, Terminiello v. Chicago (1949)...referring the statements allegedly made by Abraham Linoln when defending the suspension of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War.

The basic idea is that on 9/11 we learned that we had allowed an environment where "terror" pervades to come into existence. President Bush's policies have been designed to correct that situation. You might think they are going too far...but its better to go too far and back up then not go far enough and be dead. I think Franklin would see the wisdom in that.

H

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, September 14, 2007 7:40 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

The basic idea is that on 9/11 we learned that we had allowed an environment where "terror" pervades to come into existence. President Bush's policies have been designed to correct that situation. You might think they are going too far...but its better to go too far and back up then not go far enough and be dead.

Again, the all-or-nothing argument. Pfft.
My American Way is truth and justice, not cowboy vigilantism. I call for a fight, yes, but a GOOD fight- not a half-assed attack on a country we just don't like. Saddam had his country under some control, barbaric as it was. There were other methods for ending his regime, if it needed to happen, but now we mostly just promote endless U.S. hatred. We have arguably created more terrorists than we ever expunged.
Incompetance, mistake, PNAC design...doesn't matter now.

We gotta lot of stuff on our plate.

Get it while ya can, Neo-Cons.

Unlike you, I love my country AND my world Chrisisall

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Friday, September 14, 2007 8:03 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Pfft.

The correct term is "Gosh!" or perhaps "Golly"

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My American Way is truth and justice, not cowboy vigilantism.

Hell, what country do you live in? Cowboy vigilantism is what our country is founded on...the truth and justice part comes along for the ride along with a trusty winchester, a see-gar, and white hat. John Wayne, Roy Rodgers, Clint, Glenn Ford, and yes...Ronald Reagan.

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I call for a fight, yes, but a GOOD fight- not a half-assed attack on a country we just don't like.

I would not call the attack "half-assed" (the occupation of Free Iraq was somewhat 'half-assed'). We destroyed the Iraqi Army, toppled, captured, tried and exectuted its leadership, and did it in all with a few planes, a Marine, and an Army division (more or less). This as opposed to Clinton's Iraq policy which involved a very long stick which he used to poke Saddam, Sudan, and the occaisonal intern.

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Saddam had his country under some control, barbaric as it was.

Torture rooms and VX gas make folk pliable.

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There were other methods for ending his regime, if it needed to happen

Name one. No, name one that involves a period of time less then fifty years or the use of magic fairy dust and some hard wishing.

H

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Friday, September 14, 2007 8:15 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Jeeesh Hero...don't ya know that these pinheads would cede our sovereign rights to UN control....that's their ultimate goal.
No country
No reason to kill and die for
No religion too

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Friday, September 14, 2007 8:22 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Finn, I'm hoping we can get a good discussion going on "American values"

Well, we're off to a good start!

Chrisisall

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Friday, September 14, 2007 8:26 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Name one.

Ever see the beginning of Airforce One?

So, what OTHER countries we gonna invade, now that the precedent has been set?

*and now, an insult to the clown community*

Hero, you Bozo!

At least I didn't call you a mime Chrisisall

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Friday, September 14, 2007 9:24 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Ever see the beginning of Airforce One?

Thats your solution to Saddam! I also saw the begining of Raider of the Lost Ark...Or maybe you'd prefer the Naked Gun's method for dealing with terrorists.

Why don't we send James Bond after them...that'll show Osama.

Quote:

So, what OTHER countries we gonna invade, now that the precedent has been set?

North Korea, Iran, Syria, Madagascar (home of the Lemur Liberation Front), and New Jersey...

Not necesarrily in that order.

H

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Friday, September 14, 2007 9:25 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Ever see the beginning of Airforce One?

The real failure in Iraq is poor casting and a lousy soundtrack?

H

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Friday, September 14, 2007 11:11 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Madagascar (home of the Lemur Liberation Front)

You're never serious...

They disbanded years ago Chrisisall

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Friday, September 14, 2007 1:59 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
The Constitution is not a suicide pact. Justice Robert Jackson

(Lovingly pasted in from Part I}:
But it is to pinhead Liberals. They wish death on all of us. They would have us all have smiles on our decapitated heads, ACLU cards clenched in our teeth, as the Jihadists were raping and torturing our women folk for sport....as long as we followed the letter of every law, and this was the outcome, they would be just fine and dandy with it.
Or one of them would emerge from the smoldering embers of a dirty-bombed city with millions dead waving their Sean Penn fan club pin in triumph, along with their Bush is Hitler flag. We Won! We gave them attorneys, US citizen rights, 3 squares a day, and no profiling...we won!

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Friday, September 14, 2007 2:41 PM

CHRISISALL

I believe the Loony Left-laydowns would get us all killed just as surely (and possibly more swiftly) than the NeoCon-terrorist proliferators, but they are the only group that hate even themselves, and are fewer in number than their voices would have you believe.
No, MODERATE Liberals AND Conservatives, with eyes on the ISSUES, and not partisan politicking will save the day, in the end.
It is a dream I have.

Don't wake me up Chrisisall

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Friday, September 14, 2007 5:49 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Hero,

You're right the Constitution isn't a suicide back. But Terrorism is nothing new to the US. From my childhood I recall the FLN and the Weathermen blew up buildings in New York. As a teenager I remeber boiling with anger as a policeman friend of mine told me how the Weatherman gunned down two of his friends and colleagues (Officer Waverly Brown and Sgt. Ed O'Grady) on the New York State Thruway after robbing an armored car as it left the Nanuet Mall. I recall his anger as he lamented how his requests for speed loaders were rejected by the adminsitration (he said both men were shot as they reloaded). And yet, in both cases, the perpetrators were caught without stretching the Constitution or cutting back on our Civil Rights.

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Saturday, September 15, 2007 5:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Auraptor, Hero, et al .... We're not facing a dilemma of "give up your rights or die" as you so repeatedly paint. We have many protections but there are also many procedures thru which law enforcement operates. The issue is that the President has acted as it his word is not subject to review by either Congress or the Courts. The FF created three branches of government for a reason.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:19 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Ever see the beginning of Airforce One?

Thats your solution to Saddam! I also saw the begining of Raider of the Lost Ark...Or maybe you'd prefer the Naked Gun's method for dealing with terrorists.

Why don't we send James Bond after them...that'll show Osama.
Quote:

So, what OTHER countries we gonna invade, now that the precedent has been set?

North Korea, Iran, Syria, Madagascar (home of the Lemur Liberation Front), and New Jersey...

Not necesarrily in that order.

H

Who here thinks New Jersey should be first? Using the "Chrisisall Doctrine" I've seen the first few minutes of "Jersey Girl" and inflicting more "Benifer" on the world just has to be justification for an invasion.

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Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:20 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Madagascar (home of the Lemur Liberation Front)
You're never serious...

They disbanded years ago Chrisisall

DID they? Or is that what they want you pansies to think?

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 5:59 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Madagascar (home of the Lemur Liberation Front)
You're never serious...

They disbanded years ago Chrisisall

DID they? Or is that what they want you pansies to think?

I heard it on Zoboomofoo; they always tell the truth on that show!

Martin&Chrisisall

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Monday, September 17, 2007 3:46 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
And yet, in both cases, the perpetrators were caught without stretching the Constitution or cutting back on our Civil Rights.

There was a time when this country treated domestic terrorism as a law enforcement issue. I would suggest the more recent examples of the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City and the first WTC bombing in 1993. In both cases law enforcement apprehended and successfully prosecuted the offenders.

After 9/11 the President determined that law enforcement was merely one tool in a larger conflict. The threat of mass destruction, using WMDs or just using otherwise harmless instuments like fertilizer or 727 airplanes, was such a danger that the government needed to use all the means at its disposal to combat the threat. Thus law enforcement, national intellegence, signals interception, economic pressure, military force, and diplomatic channels have all been combined into a grand strategy that has prevented dozens of follow up attacks in the United States by hostile foriegn terrorists.

Its too late waking up the morning after such an attack and saying we could have stopped it if only we had listened in on one more call between the foriegn terrorist and their American counterpart, if only we had bombed one more safe haven, if only we had taken Sudan's offer to hand over the mastermind BEFORE all this got started, if only we had gone one step more...like I said its better to go too far and dial it back then not have gone far enough and it be too late.

H

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Monday, September 17, 2007 1:47 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Hero,

I understand where you're coming from, but once civil rights are taken can they be brought back or is it a slippery slope until we wake up one day and find that we are in a police state.

At which point your argument works the other way. There were so many opportunities which we could taken to stop the erosion of our rights, our privacy, our freedom of speech, our right to travel freely. But if we take no action and offer no resisitance, one day we'll be telling our grandchildren "No, I didn't have an Ident card when I was your age, we didn't need them back then..." And at that point we'll all know that the terrorists have really won.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 7:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
After 9/11 the President determined that law enforcement was merely one tool in a larger conflict.

Yeah, well we know how good HIS judgment is, don't we?

Quote:
The threat of mass destruction, using WMDs or just using otherwise harmless instuments like fertilizer or 727 airplanes, was such a danger that the government needed to use all the means at its disposal to combat the threat. Thus law enforcement, national intellegence, signals interception, economic pressure, military force, and diplomatic channels have all been combined into a grand strategy that has prevented dozens of follow up attacks in the United States by hostile foriegn terrorists.

And there is NOTHING preventing the President from using ALL of those tools in his tool belt. BUT NOT W/O JUDICIAL OVERSIGHT AND THE CONSENT OF CONGRESS.

Nobody is arguing that the President shouldn't have the power to send in troops or intercept phone calls if need be. But those decisions are not for the President to make on his own. There are LEGAL procedures for such activity: procedures which Bush has sidestepped at every possible opportunity.

According to some folks, Bush said that the Constitution is "just a goddamn piece of paper." IF he really said that, shouldn't he be impeached and tried?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, September 18, 2007 3:44 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
I understand where you're coming from, but once civil rights are taken can they be brought back or is it a slippery slope until we wake up one day and find that we are in a police state.

As long as we hold true to the Constitution then we'll be ok. Make no mistake, it happened before. There have been what, three Alien and Sedition Acts, all struck down. Don't forget the Civil Rights movement. After the Civil War half this country lived in a police state for a good number of years during reconstruction.

In lawschool we learn that Constitutional like is like a giant pendulam. It swings one way and then swings back.

After 9/11 the President and Congress reached for as much power as possible to deal with the crisis. Slowly the courts then roll it back. During the 30s and 40s Roosevelt and Truman (remember Truman breaking the coal strike by drafting all the miners...PN's head would have exploded...)both made power grabs that were necessary and useful and then rolled back by the courts. Same for Lincoln in the Civil War. Our system isn't perfect, its simply "more perfect" and its one redeeming feature so far is its ability for self correction, something that has caused to absolute failure of every other form of government.

H

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Tuesday, September 18, 2007 5:17 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

something that has caused to absolute failure of every other form of government

Is there a 'to' in there that doesn't belong ? Could you rephrase this so that it at least makes grammatical sense so we can start laughing at it ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 3:09 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Hero,

It's true the US Gov't tends to self correct. But it also has the potential to be corrupted. The constitution was built on respect for opinion of those who didn't necessarily have the most votes. That and the willingness to compromise. The minority party (or at least the party not in power at the moment) must be allowed to be heard and on occasion have its way (eg. successfully filibuster a nominee or a bill if it feels it's necessary to preserve the rights of those they represent). I beleive there were at least some in the present administration who wanted "one party rule," if that were allowed to happen, the constitution would die.

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