Porn prevents rape? by fredgiblet

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Porn prevents rape?

POSTED BY: FREDGIBLET
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 01:40
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Monday, November 5, 2007 10:11 AM

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-oped1104chapmannov04
,1,7432359.column?ctrack=1&cset=true

Interesting article, however as always correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

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Monday, November 5, 2007 11:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Yah, the "Agincourt documents" came up with a totally different conclusion - and I am with ya on your comment there, Fred.

People are people.. for one it could be a useful release valve, for another, drive them into a circular frenzy.

Thing is, for an outside influance to trip the switch so easily (porn, violent video games, etc) someone has to be pretty messed up to begin with.

I get into some nice verbal brawls with other folk who are against exploitation of minors over 'ordinary' porn.. I dun care for it, it robs some of the mystery from flirting, courting, and of course the humping, yanno - but it's also protected under the first amendment in my opinion.

Dun care for it myself, but yer welcome to it.
That's freedom, innit ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, November 5, 2007 12:49 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I get into some nice verbal brawls with other folk who are against exploitation of minors over 'ordinary' porn.. I dun care for it, it robs some of the mystery from flirting, courting, and of course the humping, yanno - but it's also protected under the first amendment in my opinion.

What are you saying here, because the way it reads is a little disturbing, so I'm assuming I'm probably wrong.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, November 5, 2007 3:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Cit, as is pretty obvious, I work with a lot of other folk on protecting kids from various forms of exploitation and abuse... and exploitation of a kid in that fashion is a horror beyond all because it's a re-victimising every time one more freak gets his hands on the content, sure.

BUT.

Ordinary, garden variety, consenting-adults porn has jack diddly shit to DO with that, those who collect and view the one generally do not collect and view the other, contrary to the view of *some* folk that all porn is evil regardless or legalities or consent.

I am all for blocking the stuff via *.xxx domains to keep ordinary porn out of the hands of kids (although that's a parents job mind, it'd just make it a hell of a lot easier for the parent to DO it) - and any no-consent porn producer or distributor should be prosecuted to the fullest...

But straight up, downright legal, all adults-consenting garden variety porn - why the hell should I care ? ain't harming no one to my knowledge and even if it were they're all adults creating or viewing of their own free will.

Not my style or taste, mind you... although I have a fondness for old school pinup art, but unless it's no consent, the models are underage, or suchlike, I really couldn't care less.

This particular sticking point has often put me at loggerheads with the folks who think all porn of any kind is evil and that's that.

That kinda fanaticism bugs the hell out of me, cause such folk tend also to leap on mere accusation without regard to fact checking or evidence first, making them susceptible to be baited and thus muddying the waters, you see.

All adults, All consenting, All OK.

I have no interest in it myself as I find it distasteful, but if you get into the bad habit of wanting stuff you don't like banned just cause you don't like it... that can boomerang onto YOU some day.

I try not to paint with a brush that broad, and due to this, have managed to enlist in our cause some of the folks who produce and distro aboveboard legal porn into helping shut down the other kind cause it gives em a bad name and is all around bad for business - folks who would otherwise have been completely alienated by the "all porn is evil" folk and too busy defending their business against em to be of any use or assistance in this matter.

Point of fact, most of em HATE the freaks, every bit as much as I do, and being lumped in with them so arbitrarily sends them into foaming fits of rage, given that they are a little more proactive than most about reporting these bastards when they pop-up, you see.

Did that make it a bit clearer, Cit ?
(I hope so, it's hard for me to get this across sometimes.)

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, November 5, 2007 5:24 PM

ALLIETHORN7

Now, don't mind me none, as I am but a humble kid with an opinion, but seems to me that most folk seem to forget-
People are, and forever shall always remain as, people.
What does that mean? Well, and this is what I have observed in my short time here, folks, is that people are sadistic by nature. Yep, don't try appealing to a better nature- Heinlien explained it pretty damn well in Starship Troopers, what we have, morals, conciense, a higher calling (What have you)- all ofthese things, they were drilled into our heads since birth.
Now, say that someone didn't take to this conditioning, or didn't even get this at all. The coralation between porn:rape and Violent Games:Violence in Real Life means diddly squat. If someone has those morals drilled in, they'll more likely then not pay heed to that lil', nagging voice of someones mother what says not to do it. I know, I play plenty of violent video games, and not a once did I or they get the urge to shoot up our school. Now, I don't watch porn, but y'all make it seem as if it's much the same way. Well, there's the rub. Even if the ratio goes opposite (More Violent Games: More Violence, as opposed to More Porn: Less Rape).
So, what I mean to say is; people are fundementally carnal, base beings, and, as such, will act to fulfill those base needs, wants, desires, and what have you. The whole "Civilization" thing? More or less a shackle around our collective ankles, as I sees it. Ever read Lord of the Flies? That's pretty much what happens when the shackle is broken.
So, more porn, less rape? Maybe. Only, as I sees it, because the rapistfucks are too busy jacking off alone somewhere to actually go out and assault someone. If that's the case, well, let 'em too it. Doesn't change the fact that I support the whole "Shoot on Sight" theory of dealing with them folk and all their ilk.

-Danny

and every time I play with passion I start breaking strings,
and my voice cracks when I sing from my heart
guess that's the price I've got to pay to know that I'm alive
this melody is tearing me apart

THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
My Master went to the Moon in a Rocket of Flamin' Cheese!
I LIKE CHEESE!!!
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Monday, November 5, 2007 9:30 PM

CITIZEN

Frem:
Yeah that's great. I asked because I read that paragraph through three times and all three times it sounded like you didn't mind even the underage stuff, and given what you've said before, and simply that I wouldn't believe that of you, so assumed it was my reading and asked for clarification. Don't know if I'm just being dense or if it was ambiguous wording or what.

For the most part I agree.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, November 5, 2007 10:38 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Allie, I disagree in the respect that humans are a mammal and social creature, some level of social need and/or cooperation is hardwired at the level below conscious thought.

I cite Kropotkin's "Mutual Aid Theories" as evidence of that school of thought.

What it is, or at least seems to be, that we instill such sociopathy by a society that thrives on it, rewards that behavior while punishing altruism with a carrot and stick method, everywhere you turn the most vile behavior is lauded, while human compassion or even understanding is scorned, mocked and degraded.

You can tell a kid whatever - but the kid watches your actions, the actions of those around them, and then emulates the more successful ones, and in our current society, the more sociopathic and immoral a person is, as long as they hide it well, the more successful they are.

Fifty cent rant aside, back to the topic here...

One point of contention related to this is what EiE's Agincourt documents call SOBs (Sexually Oriented Business) like strip clubs or adult "bookstores" - one place they made their case in undeniable fashion was that placing one of the above in a residential area immediately resulted in a dramatic upsurge of sexual crimes in the near vicinity.

Now, I'm not gonna blame the business directly for that, they didn't mess the folks up, just drew em to the area - and for that very reason a lot of localities have made SOBs an industrial/commercial only zoning issue, hence the "bookstore" dodge to try to slip them under the zoning board into residential areas.

We've had a few problems in michigan with that, places setting up shop as "bookstore" and then shifting to adult content later in hopes of dodging the rules - and in every single case it's spawned sexual crimes in the neighborhood, which doesn't happen when they are placed in industrial/commercial.
(Who the hell knows, maybe their woody goes limp or they run out of steam before reaching civilization...)

I got no real issue with the places, but based on the evidence alone, minus moral screeching and politicking, they really don't belong in a residential area as it's a detriment to the locals - and besides, some folk who wish to visit such a place discreetly would be better able to do so without yon nosy neighbor peeking through the blinds at who goes in or out.

Got no issue with the places themselves, like I said, they didn't make some folk messed up, but they draw them to the neighborhood the same way a pawnshop draws muggers.

Only real solution is not to put em in neighborhoods.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 2:33 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Mass murderer extraodinairre Ted Bundy gave several interviews before he was fried in the electric chair. He stated, with great passionate warning, that pornography definitely is a large part of all sexual predator's existence. He said pornography acted as a catalyst which helped break down the "walls" separating reality from demented fantasy. The message was quite clear : Not all those that view pornography become sexual predators, but all sexual predators use pornography....sort of like the old addage that not all pot smokers become heroin addicts, but all heroin addicts once used pot. Personnally, I don't think porno is all that bad, provided it can be kept away from children.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 8:45 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Frem, I'm not quite sure what you are meaning to say with your reply, as I thought that my post had to do with how humanity is a relatively base group of creatures.
Now, I'm not claiming to know everything about this topic, or, Hell, as much as anyone else in the forum, but I know that with people, it's a case of "Monkey see, Monkey do." You even touched upon that- "You can tell a kid whatever - but the kid watches your actions, the actions of those around them, and then emulates the more successful ones, and in our current society, the more sociopathic and immoral a person is, as long as they hide it well, the more successful they are".
What I am saying (Or reiterating) is that the amount of adult materials or whatever a person gets their hands on has relatively little to do with what they do outside of the reality they create as they view it- If someone has the sense not to do it, then they won't. I would bet that when ninety nine percent of the male population starts acting up, their first thought isn't "Hey, I should go rape someone to get rid of this thing".
Maybe what I'm saying is complete buil, maybe I'm actually saying something relvant to the present topic (Or maybe I'm just a cynic).
But I have relatively little faith in Humanity. Human Civilization? That's a different story- I consider it to be the only thing that keeps us from killing ourselves. But, my point is, and I'll say it again; the rapists are the ones who haven't had it instilled in them as a kid "This is wrong. Don't do it."

-Danny

and every time I play with passion I start breaking strings,
and my voice cracks when I sing from my heart
guess that's the price I've got to pay to know that I'm alive
this melody is tearing me apart

THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
My Master went to the Moon in a Rocket of Flamin' Cheese!
I LIKE CHEESE!!!
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 8:42 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh I get your point, Allie - I'm just saying that in my opinion human nature isn't as nasty as it's made out to be, the nastiness comes more from our society than a persons nature.

Folks been using that "but it's human nature" excuse a long time, since as long as they can say that, then by their reckoning any effort to change society is wasted, and I do not believe such a thing myself.

As for the other point, we're in complete agreement, if just viewing porn sends em over the edge like that, they were fucked up in the first place - ain't the fault of the porn, violence, what have you, but rather the fault of whatever root issue screwed em up to begin with.

But addressing stuff like that is too much effort for most folk - and so they address issues like this from a symptom level instead of a cause level...

Which works about as well as taking nyquil for tuberculosis, treating the symptoms rather than the cause, yanno ?

The porn, violence, etc.. ain't the issue, just the excuse - my beef is with a society that morally, emotionally, and mentally wrecks peoples humanity so badly that it leaves em messed up enough to be impacted in that fashion by such things.

A persons humanity is the civilizing influance you speak of, and we've created a social structure that does it's utmost damned level best to crush it the hell out of folk from cradle to grave.

Therein lies, in my opinion, the root cause.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 1:40 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I'm a fan of porn and I've never raped anybody.

Best part about porn is it never talks back or makes you meet it's parents.

I endorse this product.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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