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Originally posted by SergeantX:
From your response to Signym, I gather you want something from the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution. From that set, I have to with the ninth amendment, which isn't a "right" per se, but attempts to clarify the concepts of limited government embodied in the main body of the Constitution.

More and more, I'm thinking the Federalists were right about this. They worried that a concise list of rights would allow the inference that only those rights to be protected. Yet I can appreciate the desire to clarify the point of limiting government power in the first place.

It think they'd have served that purpose better by providing a general statement about rights. Something like Frem's "right to be left alone" or something establishing the general concept that if you aren't harming someone else, then the government has to stay out of your business.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Originally posted by badkarma00:
the right to due process.

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Originally posted by badkarma00:

But usually you are just hauled off to jail, and that's the end of it.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
... if there's any question of whether either of them have the right to do a thing or not, assume that government does not, and that the people do, and proceed from there.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
... if there's any question of whether either of them have the right to do a thing or not, assume that government does not, and that the people do, and proceed from there.

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Indeed. I'd like to see this written in as the 0th amendment.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

But so many law careers and entire libraries worth of law books have been written about all this that it seems they really SHOULD HAVE written it down in explicit detail.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

One thing, though - if you take away any of them, the rest tend to fall rather quickly.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
And, ya know, it always seemed to me that it WAS in the Constitution - it's written between the lines. The rights that are enumerated in the Bill of Rights are really so broad and rather vague, and the constraints placed on the government are so narrow and specific, ("You can do this and this and this, and the government can only do that, and can NEVER DO THIS OR THIS OR THIS!") that it just always felt to me as if the framers were implying, if not outright saying, that any right not listed was the sole property of The People.

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But so many law careers and entire libraries worth of law books have been written about all this that it seems they really SHOULD HAVE written it down in explicit detail.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

But so many law careers and entire libraries worth of law books have been written about all this that it seems they really SHOULD HAVE written it down in explicit detail.

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"Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."



The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by RIPWash:

"If I claimed I was Emperor just because some watery tart lobbed a scimitar at me . . ."

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
"Why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?"

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by badkarma00:

But usually you are just hauled off to jail, and that's the end of it.

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When the 'man' can behave how 'he' likes with no negative consequences, we are merely subjects, not individuals.

Hail to the king, baby.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
But the thing with that is, what happened IMMEDIATELY after the Federalists got control over the Government ?

Hamilton, Jay, Madison, Adams and others went STRAIGHT for those loopholes they left in there quite deliberately, didn't they ?

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
my purpose, which was to point out that the framers intent isn't a matter of "interpretation". They knew what they meant. So do we, though we choose to ignore it.

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Not that it makes a bloody difference, especially with public school "history" classes kinda sidestepping that whole matter, which imho is THE most important key to understanding american history as a whole.

Course, that presumes they WANT you to, which is another matter entire.

-Frem



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I've wondered some on that myself, Frem. Years ago, (many ago, lol) when I was in school, we studied the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, as well as other initial arguments and positions taken by the Founding Fathers in what role government should play in our Republic.

Today, I find myself having to explain to my nephews and neices those things, as, sadly, they are no longer being taught. Instead, schools spend too much time studying FOREIGN culture, and teaching our children that we must respect and understand these cultures, even the ones who seem to want only to kill Americans. (though that's a discussion for another thread, I think).

It's been said more than once that the educational system of any government can all too easily be co-opted into a propoganda tool, and it seems that this theory is being played out before us even now. I have noticed that today's 'history' books tell a vastly different story than those used in my days. Sadly, these changes are not improvements, IMO.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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teaching our children that we must respect and understand these cultures, even the ones who seem to want only to kill Americans.

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Originally posted by SimonWho:
Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the right to vote, the right to privacy, the right to due process.

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Originally posted by badkarma00:
To me, that's far more important than what someone three thousand miles away thinks or does, since the odds of us meeting them are slim and none.

If there is time after learning those things about our own country, not to mention the 'reading, 'ritin' and 'rithmatic' that should be the foiundation of every good education, then by all means, enlighten our children about others. But not at the expense of denying them a quality education that includes at least the basics of how our government was formed, and how it's intended to function.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
This is fascinating. The stereotype in Europe runs along the lines that Americans are taught zero about foreign cultures in their schools.

You present the case that they are taught too much too early.

... What are American kids taught about other cultures?

ETA: And when and how?

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Originally posted by SergeantX:

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Originally posted by badkarma00:
To me, that's far more important than what someone three thousand miles away thinks or does, since the odds of us meeting them are slim and none.

If there is time after learning those things about our own country, not to mention the 'reading, 'ritin' and 'rithmatic' that should be the foiundation of every good education, then by all means, enlighten our children about others. But not at the expense of denying them a quality education that includes at least the basics of how our government was formed, and how it's intended to function.

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I don't know. I suppose it's obvious enough that I think that the ideas embodied in our constitution are valuable. But if the only thing that can perpetuate them is cradle to grave indoctrination, they're not worth the paper they're written on.

FWIW, karma, though I realize you're not condoning such, the notion you put forward was present at the birth of the Straussian neo-con movement and central to their "new conservatism" ethos. The neo-cons were very enthusiastic about defeating the teaching of moral relativism in our schools, especially when it came to competing cultures. Though they recognized the legitimacy of the concept, they saw it as too complicated for young minds. In fact, they thought it was too complicated for most citizens. They felt if was vitally important for the unwashed masses to see their nation as the "good guys" even if it meant shoveling them a load of crap to accomplish. If you have time, check out "The Closing of the American Mind" written by Straussian protoge Alan Bloom in the late 80's. It's a rather creepifying look into the "scholarship" that culminated in the "Bush doctrine".


SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Originally posted by badkarma00:

I'm not really saying we shouldn't teach those things, mind you, but I do think that children in middle school grade have enough to cover without trying to learn what other countries are doing.

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As to what they are taught, and at what level, that often differs from school system to school system. Usually teaching about foreign cultures, what some call 'indoctrination', lol, begins around grade 5 in average. A few are actually earlier, I think, though most, that I know of, are a year or two later on.

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As to what, again that depends on the system in question, but since 9/11 a great deal of emphasis has been placed on ensuring that our children 'understand' the militant Muslim's view, with what some see as an 'undergroud' attempt to justify what was done here on that day.

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As I said, I don't have an issue with those things being taught, (aside from the apologetics for the militant Islamanazis),

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