Mandate this! by SergeantX

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/health/policy/04health.html?hp

They seem to have settled on "shared responsibility" as the new euphemism. Orwell would be proud.

But it's all good cause they'll be a hardship exemption. If you say pretty-please and look all pathetic and stuff. Of course, if you happen to think insurance companies are corporate cocksuckers who don't deserve a penny of your money, well then you go to jail.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:39 PM

Quote:
Yet, people put up with it. People will probably put up with this too.

Not for very bloody long - especially if the "coverage" they provide is as USELESS as that of any auto insurer...

It's an ugly mood on the street, round the office water coolers, and especially outside the unemployment office - people are *pissed* and gettin madder by the minute, ole Bama-lama has used up alla his "I am not bush" credit and then some, at this point.

No, it was a feeling. But I can guess. With so much chaos, someone will do something stupid. And when they do, things will turn nasty.
-Finch

And here's me, waitin where the fumes of discontent are pooling, with a match...

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 2:56 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Thanks for the link.

All I can say is...

Fuck me!

I'll be leaving the country before this happens. Just in case I'm wrong about people's apathy and Frem's there lighting that match.

Fuck. What happened to nationalized single payer health care? How can either side be happy with this?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:04 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Thanks for the link.

All I can say is...

Fuck me!

I'll be leaving the country before this happens. Just in case I'm wrong about people's apathy and Frem's there lighting that match.

Fuck. What happened to nationalized single payer health care? How can either side be happy with this?

That's just ONE of the places where Obama lost me. He allowed Max Baucus to shut the single-payer option completely out of the debate. It won't even be DISCUSSED. At that point, I knew that we, the people, were well and truly fucked. Now we'll end up with a system where you'll have insurance, all right - because you'll be forced to buy it.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 11:21 AM

I think the lesson we are learning, as a nation, is that insurance is not the answer. It's the problem. I see a future when we'll come to see current insurance plans for what they are - Ponzi schemes with limited life spans and dangerous side effects on the markets they inhabit. They really only work when they prey on an ever-expanding base of new enrollees. Once saturation is reached, or when the expansion of the base begins to level off, insurance become less and less effective and more and more expensive. That's what we're living through now.

But like with any powerful addiction, we're still in denial. We still think we can regulate our way out of it. That we can simply "mandate" the ever-expanding base and make our problems go away.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 1:03 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GORRAMIT!

WRITE WRITE WRITE.

CALL CALL CALL.

Jawboning the folks here doesn't do SQUAT! And the lowlifes in Congress, they may be crooked and stupid beyond belief, but if they get a flood of emails and calls on a topic, political self-preservation kicks in.

THE SENATE
www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

THE HOUSE
https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

THE WHITE HOUSE
www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/

ADD YOUR NAME TO THE PETITION
http://pol.moveon.org/popetition/

Donate to Moveon, as they are planning ads for public health care. Tell all of your friends. Stop bitching and whining and DO something.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 1:50 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What I wrote to the WH
-----------------
I SUPPORT SINGLE PAYER HEALTH CARE.

Failing that, I support a publicly-financed, governmentally administered health insurance plan available to all on a premium basis. Since current health insurance plans take 20-35% off the top for administrative costs and profit, I believe that- if offered to businesses at a lower rate than currently available- the plan will be able to fund itself, with sufficient reserve to cover the uninsured.

Will this drive corporate health insurance out of the market?

I hope so!

The so-called "free market" paradigm has run its course. They have failed time and time again to provide meaningful reform or adequate coverage at a reasonable price. Their opinions on the topics of healthcare and health insurance are irrelevant to solving our current problems- problems which THEY THEMSELVES CREATED.

DO NOT REWARD ABJECT, SELF-SERVING FAILURE WITH A PLACE AT THE TABLE. Enough is enough.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 2:14 PM

But Signy, you're assuming that we HAVEN'T called and written. Of course I have! An e-mail is worth almost nothing, a snail-mail is worth a bit more, and a phone call is best. They have people who keep "chit sheets" to see how things are faring, and who mark down the calls and comments and relay them to the congresspeople. I called Representative Lloyd Doggett (D) and Senators John Cornyn and Kay Bailey Hutchison ( both (R)) and just said, "I'm one of your constituents, I'm for single-payer healthcare, and I want it added to the discussion. Thank you."

I also e-mailed all of them.

Everyone else needs to do the same. I don't expect much from Cornyn and Hutchison, but maybe if enough people call and write, they'll have a change of heart...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 2:43 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Kwicko, I'm suspecting that a lot of peeps who complain about the system can't be bothered to pick up the gorram phone. Even here, in this hotbed of politics.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 2:45 PM

I decided to keep it simple:

Quote:
Do you intend to reverse your campaign position on the individual mandate? I so, I'll consider it a definitive betrayal of the public trust and find myself unable to support your administration, and unwilling to believe any future promises or statements of principle.

I wanted to say more. Single payer isn't much better than a mandate. It will be like throwing gasoline on the fire of inflationary pressures currently built into the health care industry. The only way to get costs under control at that point will be draconian laws mandating "healthy" behavior.

Though it pains me to say, we're better off establishing basic health care as a national service, akin to public education. It will be yet another dip into the government controlling everygoddamnedthing, but we don't have much choice.

I look at it like this:

We're all on raft being swept downstream by a massive river. On one side of the river, is a wild land, untamed and unexplored. On the other side, men with guns waiting to enslave us. But they promise to keep us safe and well-fed.

Some of us are saying we'd rather take our chances in the wild rather than become slaves. The rest favor the sure thing, even if it means we live in chains. So, part of us rowing as hard as we can toward the security of the slavers. The rest, fighting with all our might to pull us toward the wilderness. Meanwhile, in the tug-o-war, we're following the current out to sea.

Currently, it looks like the slaver faction has the upper hand. So I'm willing to concede and get to dry land. But know this. I'll be working against the slavers as a full time endeavor. I'll be looking for a way to escape as soon as I can manage it.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Kwicko, I'm suspecting that a lot of peeps who complain about the system can't be bothered to pick up the gorram phone. Even here, in this hotbed of politics.

Oh, I totally get that, Sig. And it's good of you to keep reminding them. All I have to do is remember my favorite Government professor's words from way back when I was in college:

"If you don't vote, don't complain. If you don't call and write your representatives and Senators, don't complain. Participate, or shut the hell up and get out of our way, because we've got work to do."

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
"If you don't vote, don't complain. If you don't call and write your representatives and Senators, don't complain. Participate, or shut the hell up and get out of our way, because we've got work to do."

Nope. I'm calling bullshit on that one. Participating for me, at least in any traditional sense, is a waste of time. When your rights and interests are being violated and ignored by the majority, when you ARE the minority, participating is largely an exercise in futility. The only way to get past that IS TO COMPLAIN, loudly and regularly to everyone who might understand, with the hope of building some awareness, some understanding.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:14 AM

Once again the recommendation amounts to going to the sharpers house, and playing with his marked deck, at his table, by his rules...

You DO know that's every bit as stupid as responding to a piss poor job market by sinking yourself deeper and deeper in debt to get a "better education" which them makes you to expensive to hire, right ?

Me, I say fuck both sides, I'm jumpin off the raft and I'll take my chances in the river!

They're *NOT* going to listen to you, hell, they wouldn't listen even in cases where 90%+ of the population was against em, because there is no THREAT behind it.

Hell, even the threat of impeachment has no teeth because you wind up depending on the very fuckers you're trying to impeach for it's enforcement - and let me also remind you how MANY subpeanos, contempt citations and the like were simply ignored, and will continue to be so long as no one dares put real force behind them.

And that, folks, is what it comes down to, force.

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."

That does not necessarily, or even usually mean violence - what it MEANS is *leverage*, and until you get some, you ain't bringin jack diddly shit to the fight.

Protests, HA! you got any plans for beating out the Miami Model ? or how bout when they plant some creep in your ranks who leaves handy evidence to justify rounding you all up before the protest even begins ? or throwing a full on protest with a cast of thousands only to have no one notice cause the networks gave you the Clear Channel treatment ?

You wanna put the arm on these bastards, first get a goddamn lever to do it - dig dig DIG! deep and true, find every goddamn bit of dirt they ever had all the way back to throwing rocks on the playground in third grade, and dish em a no-bullshit ultimatum, unleash the paparazzi posse on em, leave no action unscrutinized, monitor their tollpass, muckrake their myspace, chat up their interns, and do it blatantly, if they whine and threaten to sue, make sure to get THAT on tape too, as just that much more ammo.

Make them paranoid, make them FRIGHTENED, give them a taste of what they love handing us, most especially reporting every little teensy nitpick violation of everything from double parking to their garage being in violation of the building code, put the fucking thumb on them and don't let it up till they're BEGGIN you for mercy.

In short, play HARDBALL, or don't come at all.

And that's all imma say on this one.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:33 AM

JKIDDO

That's what I figured you'd say.

But what do you have to lose by calling and writing? A couple of bucks in phone bills and stamps? It's a low-cost action with no downside risk. If 20% of the adult population called or wrote, I guarantee you, Congress would be shitting bricks.

THEN amp up the ire. Mass protests. Letters to the editor. Blogs. Targeting vulnerable candidates by funding and actively supporting an alternative. (Don't forget, next year 1/3 of the Senate is up for election.)

Frem, you do what you do, but don't discourage peeps from doing what THEY can do. You need a lot of people pushing in the same direction on many levels, not the lone superhero.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:31 AM

Quote:
If 20% of the adult population called or wrote, I guarantee you, Congress would be shitting bricks.

And I guarantee you they'd be laughing.

But shit, if that's all one can do - and often enough it is cause they're too damn busy struggling to survive (exactly as planned), I don't mean to disparage the concept - so long as folk are AWARE that it's more feelgood measure than anything else.

I mean, come on ?
1000 Letters which want one thing...
1 letter with a $5,000.00USD check attached wanting another ?

You're asking folk to pick up one pebble, and toss it over the side of the mountain so it plinks on the roof of the powers that be...

And I am suggesting they ROLL it down the mountain at them.

Either one will work, I guess, at least in some degree - but the end results (and that's completely intentional) would be quite, quite different.

See, with me this isn't about stopping one stupid bill, or forcing one vote, or even replacing a single politician with another near identical politician, I am goin long, hail mary, fourth and ten...

And I am done with half-measures and token efforts, for me it's hardball or none at all.

That's not to disparage anyone elses effort however minor - but it would be completely dishonest of me NOT to point out that this was basically "it didn't work any of the last times, so let's try this known-not-to-work policy some more" - which it is, essentially, unless you find some way to put teeth in it...

I'll even give a suggestion, stick a chunk of monopoly money in there and play carrot and stick - this is how much you get if you do what I tell you, and if you don't, that's how much your OPPONENT gets...

NOW your letter campaign has teeth, has threat, has force - but without it, well...

Of course, also a good use of your effort would be to simply dump all support for Scumbag A or Dirtbag B and round up some third party folk at the local levels and shove them into office - heaven only knows if a certain township can outright *shanghai* a damned anarchist, you can prolly stack at LEAST one third party on your city council, just as a beginning, yanno ?

I don't mean to sound so vicious, but remember I know how this is gonna go, unless headed off - and the clock is ticking.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:18 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

SO far Frem, everything that you've written of is well within the pale of normal poltical activism, not the teeth-baring piracy I imagine.

Can you imagine a demonstration in which 1 of 5 are either really sick or dressed up as patients? People in wheelchairs and walkers, with shaved heads and eyebrows, gray-haired elderly, in bandages or hospital gowns, on crutches or carrying baby dolls... and a coterie of videocams and cellphones and twitterers.. shoot, man! Wouldn't that bollux the police and the press?

Beyond that, the next step is blackmail.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Me, I say fuck both sides, I'm jumpin off the raft and I'll take my chances in the river!it

I was worried there for a bit you were going to miss my setup. :)

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:05 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

When you find that out-of-the-way place which isolates you from economic participation, let me know.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
When you find that out-of-the-way place which isolates you from economic participation, let me know.

Well, I'm not really looking for such a place. But I'll keep an eye out. You looking to move?

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 1:34 PM

Well, there's a limit to what I am willing to publicly advocate, for obvious reasons.

And Sarge, have you ever known me to not resist such an obvious straight line ?

As for non economic participation ?
http://www.amazon.com/Off-Books-Underground-Economy-Urban/dp/067403071
0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245368060&sr=8-1

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:20 PM

Don't think for a moment that I'm suggesting that ALL you do is call and write. Hell to the noes. I'm saying that you should AT LEAST do that. And whenever possible, engage in civil disobedience, protest, speak out, act up, and in general, do anything you can - non-violent, of course, and preferably legal - to remind these putzes

1) Who they are,
2) Who WE are, and
3) Who they work for.

And if you can pie someone in the face and get away with it, please do.

Nothing will make you look more stupid, and at the same time remind you how important you AREN'T, like a pie in the face at an inopportune moment.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:29 PM

GRIPPER

Lets see....the Goobermint mandates that you "participate" in an insurance program,while also mandating employer provision....and then they tax your participation in said mandated program as an "added benefit/income"..Oh,no;that could NEVER pi$$ anyone who thought we had a free country;could it????

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 18, 2009 9:45 PM

I suppose the most frustrating aspect of the "individual mandate" is that it's an obvious attempt by the insurance industry to curtail grassroots efforts to solve the health care crisis outside their control. So they lobby to use the force of law to herd us into their pens. Fuck that.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 19, 2009 7:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I suppose the most frustrating aspect of the "individual mandate" is that it's an obvious attempt by the insurance industry to curtail grassroots efforts to solve the health care crisis outside their control. So they lobby to use the force of law to herd us into their pens. Fuck that.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

Well, take heart, I guess...

Seems there's no such thing as *A* plan for healthcare at the moment. It looks like everybody and their brother is working on their own plans, none of which mesh, and none of which are necessarily similar.

Meanwhile, what WE can do is keep writing, keep calling, keep e-mailing, and keep recruiting others to do the same. Point out that single-payer healthcare will vastly reduce administration costs, things like Medicare and Medicaid will go away (actually, they'll just be absorbed into the single-payer system), workers' comp payroll taxes will go away (since workers' comp insurance will no longer be necessary, as there would be a single-payer system).

Insurance companies wouldn't be driven out of business; they'd be forced to innovate and actually COMPETE for your dollars. They'd still offer "Cadillac plans" (top-tier healthcare that covers everything including cosmetic surgery), they could offer "upgrades" to your basic plans (private rooms, "concierge doctors" - a fancy word for house calls, really), and so on.

This isn't a government takeover of healthcare any more than public education is a takeover of the education system. Private schools still exist, don't they? What's their appeal? That they provide something public schools don't, right? Ditto healthcare - there will still be private care, but there won't be ONLY private, for-profit health care.

Call and write, write and call, and e-mail, e-mail, e-mail. Tweet about it if you're a twit. But get the word out and pass it along!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 19, 2009 8:18 AM