No, I Will Not Comply. Period. by Wulfenstar

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

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Monday, September 28, 2009 11:12 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

What is it you're not complying with today, question mark?

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Monday, September 28, 2009 11:15 AM

STORYMARK

Sanity.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, September 28, 2009 11:17 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Well, good to know the trolls are out in force. (And by force, I mean 2... lol.)

You guys are pathetic.

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Monday, September 28, 2009 11:27 AM

There are two Wulfies?

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Monday, September 28, 2009 11:31 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Did you even watch it, or are you just commenting cause it was me who posted it?

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Monday, September 28, 2009 12:14 PM

MANGOLO

From your video "Did the Jews disagree? [about causing the economic problems in Germany] I don't think so. I've never read any newspaper articles...."

Why should I listen to a guy who obviously hasn't done the least amount of research? There were dozens of Jewish papers. Even after being confining to the razor wired ghettoes and in 1939 an all out government ban on all papers that didn't support the government, the Jewish press continued to operate underground.

BTW He cites that Hitler was elected by a 98% margin. Saddam Hussein was elected by a 98% margin in the election right before we invaded. It says more about the election process than public will.

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Monday, September 28, 2009 1:13 PM

TRAVELER

I watched this video, but the facts are not that accurate and a lot of what took place is left out. Jews did leave Germany. They were a minority and had little influence over the fate that Germany was headed for. When Germany defeated most of Europe, the Jews, again, found themselves under Germany's influence. You can't shrink the history of Hitler's rise to power and the extermination of six million Jews into a speech of just a few minutes length. And it was not only Jews who went into camps. Anyone who puplicly disagreed were thrown into camps, along with gays, gypsies, and people with birth defects. The Eastern Europeans, such as the Ukrainians who welcomed the German army as liberators from the Communist regime soon discovered the the Nazi Party had no tolerance for them. The farther the German army advanced the more they were able to sweep up and put into camps. So escaping Germany did very little good. The nations conquered by the Germans handed over the Jews. And then there were Germany's allies. The Hungarians and Rumanians who followed the Nazi beliefs and turned in their Jews. But there were those who did fight back. There was an underground network in Germany itself, just as in the conquered nations, fighting the Nazi's. So there was resistance.
In this post I have only covered a minute piece of the history of the genicide that occurred across Europe. You have to pull out books and start reading. This is no subject that can be covered in YouTube video. It was people who blindly listened to speeches like this that allowed Hitler and the Nazi Party to move ahead with their plans of genicide. Speeches that are ment to persuade people to your beliefs are designed to evoke emotions as this one in the video. Hitler was a master at it. Listen to one of Hitler's speeches and you will see a lot of similarities.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Monday, September 28, 2009 1:24 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Not gettin' what it is Wulf doesn't want us to comply with.

Care to 'splain, Wulf?

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Monday, September 28, 2009 2:31 PM

HKCAVALIER

Oh man, Wulf. Damn. This video of yours is DISGUSTING. I know you're not ashamed o' NOTHIN' but maybe, I'm sayin', you should be fricken ashamed of this one.

This

's history is the BIG LIE. Goddamn it, Wulf, at every point this champion JACKASS asks his nasty minded question, "And did they rise up???" Jews DID (not all, but some) rise up and were beaten to death or shot--in public. No matter how bad you had it as a kid you DID NOT live under such conditions as the Jews in Europe. This guy is LYING. You are utterly dead wrong on this one and it stinks.

And I pity you if you are trying to pass this off as in any way analogous to Obama getting elected (just like Hitler did!

)

A new low (and that's sayin' something!)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, September 28, 2009 3:55 PM

Well, apparently we have nothing to worry about with Obama, unless he wins reelection with 98% of the vote. It seems 98% is the magical number to becoming a TRUE despot!

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Monday, September 28, 2009 4:28 PM

FREMDFIRMA

It's one thing to question the obvious sympathy ploy currently used to excuse abuses - but yeah, do a better job of the background info and "homework" on it before grabbing something that sounds reasonable on the surface, yet is based on... well, jackassery, for lack of a better word.

The problem with even discussin this one is that both "sides" have such a radically, insanely distorted perception of the facts that no one CAN discuss it, or will, and that's unfortunate, but also unfortunately true.

Both "sides" wanna bang their drum while ignoring anything else, and that's not reason, that's madness.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, September 28, 2009 7:05 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Just to get back to something I didn't have time fore before: I find it ironic that this (Idiot) guy quotes Lincoln, of all people.

BUt yanno, I think Wulf's big itch is health care. The gubmint may actually do something USEFUL for a change, and by golly, Wulf doesn't want us to comply!

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Monday, September 28, 2009 9:48 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Did you even watch it, or are you just commenting cause it was me who posted it?

Did you post something? The OP is just a big blank for me. What do you not comply with? Can you be more specific? Why not try to communicate?

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Monday, September 28, 2009 10:52 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Badnarik does a good class on Constitutional Law which this is part of, before he ran for president as the nominee of the Libertarian Party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Badnarik

Adolf Hitler Shicklegruber was a Kosher Rothschild, heir to half the world's bankster wealth. All the top Nazis were Jews, including running the "Final Solution" and the Gestapo. 150,000 Jews ran Nazi Germany. Jews founded Communism and ran Commie Russia. Jews ran USA and UK in WW2 (Churchill Roosevelt Truman)Max 600,000 Jews genocided out of 55-million Christians genocided in WW2.

Jewish banksters are still in charge of the world, and they don't need YOU anymore... Or don't you remember what they did on 9/11, as an excuse to genocide 1.5-million Iraqis, again? How about the Reichstag Fire? Were the Nuremburg Trials a conspiracy theory?

The Revolutionary Civil War has begun:

Dial 911 without a gun and die:

Dial 911 with a gun and live:

Which one are you?

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 12:18 AM

MANGOLO

This is just anti-Semitism to the max. How many of your relatives spent time in a concentration camp? The tattoos on my relatives are not there by choice. The town I grew up in didn't allow Jews into the private clubs. The public spaces weren't much better. You ever been called a sandnigger? You think Jews run the world? Wake up. Jews have been at the brutal end of genocide more times in history than any other group of people. We have been slaves not for some short period like the Africans, but for thousands of years. We were the first ethnic group to be ghetto-ized.

We have survived. Maybe that's what pisses people off. We, as a people, have endured in the face of adversity that few others have experienced. One of my Hawaiian buds said the reason Hawaiian used to be so smart is because all the dumb ones died lost at sea during those 2000 mile journeys. I'd joke back, that's why there are so many smart Jews proportionally because the dumb ones didn't know when to fight and when to run.

Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of dumb Jews too and ones who use their smarts for nefarious purposes, but Jews helped lead the struggle for workers rights in the world and civil rights and women's rights in America. I'm not a Zionist and disagree about the need for a Jewish state, but excuse my German when I say go f*ck your revisionist bulls*it.

Maybe you should read some Noam Chomsky or Howard Zinn - these are Jews that I admire.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:41 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 3:07 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I don't get where people are saying this is anti-semetic.

Actually, I thought this guy made a good point. If you see something that your government is doing which is wrong, or is infringing on your liberties... the time to do something about it is now. When you have a chance. When you might be able to turn things around.

I was thinking about the G-20 kids, the gun confiscations after Katrina, and the bailouts when I saw this video.

As a side note: I really need to get off this board more often.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:06 AM

AGENTROUKA

Wulf,

what sounds antisemitic here is that he seems to blame the Jews for their own fate. Because they did nothing. As if it was all a matter of saying "Oh hey, please don't do that!" and eveything would have been fine. As if they didn't try.

Seriously, the political atmosphere back then was volatile at best. Communists and nationalists had street riots, they attacked each other's gatherings, there were assassinations. No one had any respect for the ineffective democratic center. People in general were fed up and frightened. Hitler marched his young followers through cities and villages and deliberately started violent clashes to build a reputation of force and terror.

And just because THIS GUY hasn't read any newspaper articles about Jews protesting the anti-Jewish propaganda doesn't mean that none did. Just because HE hasn't heard of Jews saying "Stop destroying my property" doesn't mean they didn't try. It just did not do them any good. By the time of the Reichskristallnacht (November 1938) they were already legal second-class citizens, at the very best. Jews were a significant minority, numbers were not their strength, exactly, so even starting big public protests wouldn't have necessarily helped. Hitler didn't come to power in a stable democracy that valued free speech, peaceful public dissent and had a tradition of equality and respect for diversity. It was a country looking back on over a decade of instability and unrest, mass poverty and international political humiliation (as the majority felt). Jews taking to the streets to protest would have had little impact, because it wouldn't have hit a receptive audience ready to rise and protect their rights, it wouldn't have been safe by any stretch of the imagination and it might have had a negative impact in terms of providing more propaganda material. Ugly as it is, Germans were ready to wait and see where this would go, enjoying some benefits of the Nazi policies and very used to the image of the enemy lurking within their own population (communists, jews, traitors, etc.)

It's just a really bad, disrespectful, ill-researched example that this guy is using for his own agenda. Which is what gives an appearance of anti-semitism. I personally just consider it tasteless and ignorant.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:25 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I understand what you are saying. But I don't think he is talking about protests (exactly). I think hes saying that when the time comes, you just refuse to comply, period. As in "No, I will NOT wear the Star of David". "No, I will not be treated as a second-class citizen" ect.

And no, I don't get that hes blaming the Jews for their own fate. I mean up to that point in history, who would have thought that a country/government could do such a thing. It was more along the lines of inches.

They do this, we back up, that do that we back up... and over time they have pushed you into a corner.

Not their fault, just that no one could have possibly forseen what was going to happen.

But now we (the world) knows what can happen. What WILL happen if we just continue to ignore the little pushes that happen, the little cuts that occur, and the infringements that slip by.

And so, the time to stop these things is NOW, BEFORE your back is against a wall.

If the Holocaust taught us anything, its that you CAN'T "go along to get along". You CAN'T ignore what is happening around you. You CAN'T do NOTHING.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:58 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I understand what you are saying. But I don't think he is talking about protests (exactly). I think hes saying that when the time comes, you just refuse to comply, period. As in "No, I will NOT wear the Star of David". "No, I will not be treated as a second-class citizen" ect.

Which would have had them arrested for breaking the law, possibly brutally beaten up by SA thugs, their property confiscated and them sent straight to a work camp. If they were lucky.

What the guy misrepresents is that they DID do and say these things. And they did suffer the consequences. Which were extremely ugly.

So yes, in the face of this, the the majority backed up by inches, as you say. Because they had no other choice.

By all means, do not comply with whatever you do not want to comply with, rejoice in having the choice and defend it. Be proud to do it.

I still maintain, though, that in a society as volatile as the Weimar Republic, acting as a small minority (with the Jews making up only 500,000 people in all of Germany in 1933) and the government having absolutely no reason to try and maintain a pretense of equality and justice that might limit the brutality of their conduct... "not complying" is not exactly a fruitful endeavor. What they would have needed was the support and non-compliance of the majority of Germans. So the guy IS saying very stupid, ill-researched things. Minority non-compliance only works if you have the power to make an actual impact or if the authority you are opposing has valid reason to respect human rights in the face of an alert majority that would actually back those human rights for you. Non-compliance could work very well in modern Western societies. It was not an effective choice for German Jews in 1938.

I'm glad you're taking a worthwhile message away from this video, but I'm also glad you understand why others are too taken aback by his comparison to take him seriously.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 5:02 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Did you even watch it, or are you just commenting cause it was me who posted it?

I got as far as 'Austria-Hungary', haha. Poor ignorant chap - he's tried to do his research.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 5:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wulf, maybe this is an example of why you get seen as racist. I dunno if this was innocently posted, but I'm going to assume it was, and that the message you saw was "stand up". And I understand what you were trying to impart, if that was the case.

But if you post something to make a point, it's better to think about who and what is being used to make the point, and if it's a valid one. This is such an egregious example of someone I'm guessing is against things currently(?) trying to use history, that it does more harm than good except to the people who buy into it. And if they do, they're ignorant and not seeing beyond the "stand up!" message.

By now you've been educated as to what actually happened back then. Trouka has done a wonderful job of giving you history, REAL history. I'd be willing to bet this guy didn't even try to find out what actually happened back then--people are saying he did a bad job and was all wrong, but I don't think he even CARED or would have bothered. He was using the Jews as an example, nothing more, by saying they should have stood up for themselves.

So here are two points:

1) This is a guy wants to say something and doesn't care what example he uses, true or false, to get his point across.

2) What he's preaching has NOTHING to do with America today, it's a completely erroneous analogy, so if you want to find something to make your point, you need to do better.

3) Not only is it a pathetic corollary to America today, it won't happen here. I don't care how "bad" (as you see it) it gets here, Americans are too independent and our history is too deeply entrenched to allow any one person to do what Hitler did.

I know there are those who disagree with me, but I hold my point. Germany's history is based on thousands of years; most of those they had a leader, not a democracy. They're a small country compared to us, and their history began with barbarians and Visigoths. It's a bloody history, which then became a monarchy for hundreds of years. They had expectations of a strong leader in their society. If any find that racist, I apologize, but it's what I believe; each country is ruled by its history, climate, and many other factors.

Germany was also surrounded by other small countries, with histories of wars, inter-marriage for power, etc., etc. It was predisposed for a Hitler type to come along when it was in dire straits financially and otherwise. Germanic culture leaned toward power and leadership.

America was begun with the concept of democracy. We are still a very young country--a huge country made up of essentially many "little" countries. We have no history of conquest (in the historical sense) or being conquered, and the very basis of our society is independence and democracy.

If you can't see what I'm saying, it's a waste of time, but I'm trying to say it anyway. Despite your fears, despite your dramatic view of things, we've got it, and always had it, damned good. No single leader is going to change that, simply because we ARE so big and diverse, and strongly believe in democracy.

Additionally, the day when one group of people can be persecuted the way the Jews were is passing, globally. If that were not so, Muslims would be in concentration camps by now, after 9/11 and the Bush Administration's efforts to make them the "evil" people. Instead, many of us stood up for Muslims we knew when we saw any kind of persecution, educational efforts are constantly being made to lessen demonization of an entire religion, etc.

We believe in freedom. Some may take it too far, some may be convinced it's being eroded, some may believe a Holocaust could happen here. But it can't and won't. Bush wanted at one point to "delay" the election, probably in hopes of cementing his power; Cheney and his cronies had dreams of a permanent Republican majority; how far did that get?

Not only is it a poor example to compare us to the Germans, even if Bush somehow managed to do it better, you can't compare us to ANY other society. There are bigger countries, Russia, Canada, Australia, but none as populated as the US, none as rich, none as diverse.

You and others here are so focused on the things you perceive as "wrong" about our government and our country, you're somewhat blinded about the fact that the things you view as "horrible" that happen in our government, are actually small in comparison to the entire nation, our way of life and our diversity, all of which, I believe, keep us free from the kind of dictatorship and tyrany you think is coming.

I know, there will be a zillion disagreeing statements about the danger we stand in or will stand in, etc. You won't change my mind. We CAN speak up against what we view as wrong, even if what we view as wrong is absurd, like the KKK, the little militias, etc. The Jews never could, and never stood a chance from the moment Hitler decided to use them as a scapegoat.

Basing your desire to make statements about your fears will only be a valid point if you state those fears based on valid arguments. To post what you did is one of the things I think gets you called a racist...you're not looking beyond the "statement" to what it's based on.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 5:57 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Ironic really, how the extreme right uses "Hitler" as a tactic against Obama, when I can see their tactics - fear, nationalism, vilification of a group - as not that much different than Hitler's. Crazy!

If that guy's shirt were *browner* and the flag behind him had more dark right angles...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:00 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok... who said that I was comparing our current leadership to Hitler?

I wasn't. In fact, I was JUST trying to say that we need to watch ourselves. Because each and everyday our freedoms, CAN BE pushed back an inch at a time. So, its up to us to do something to prevent that, to pay attention. To NOT just go along to get along.

And YES, they have been pushed back. The Patriot Act, Katrina, the G20 protests.... look up what we lost in JUST those 3 incidents.

So pay attention, do what you can. Fight for that inch that was lost. We CAN get it back.

Its a simple message, that unfortunately got lost in politics.

ETA: It was NOT my intention to start another shit-storm. Just trying to get people to stop being complacent.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:49 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Also, btw.

Im starting to think I spend waaaay too much time on here. I might need to back off a bit.

(Yeah, I can hear the cheering from here)

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:58 AM

No cheering, at least not from me. `

I never missed Auraptor, because there was never any chance that he was going to LEARN or grow. For all the grief I give you, you DO seem to be making steps forward. For that, I applaud you - but not for your absence.

I'm a bit restricted in my time here, too. I'm swamped at work; slammed, really - which is a GOOD problem to have in this day and age - and I've got company in from out of town, so my evenings are kind of taken up right now, too.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:06 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok... who said that I was comparing our current leadership to Hitler?

There's a YouTube video of you saying it - I see it everywhere.

No one here said it, I suggested the more extreme people on the right have tried to connect the 2.

My biggest concern is not Obama (though his budget IS A CONCERN), but the knuckleheads on the right. They play victim but don't want health care changed - the biggest scam running - they'd rather the big insurance companies got their money and they were under insured.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:17 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

There are knuckle heads in both parties.

And a question I never got answered... but still one that bothers me... is why are there only 2 parties?

I do my best to take from both sides... but neither really represent my views. And even IF there was a party that said they stood in the middle... would they really?

Seriously. We COULD start an Independent party. One that took the best of all parties. And left out the worst and most asinine.

(But if we did, I want to be the first Presidential nominee from it... heheheh)

But really folks, give it some thought. What would be a good platform for the Independence?

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:20 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Wulf,

It is probably true that each and every downtrodden people, abused by their government, had a moment.

It was a magic moment. Being reasonable stopped being an option. The government had taken things just that one inch too far. Action was required!

But these things are almost universally apparent ONLY in retrospect.

When is being reasonable and working within the system not enough? I mean, EXACTLY what moment does it become ill advised?

Which inch is that magic inch? Which inch is the ONE, the MAGIC ONE, that crosses the line?

What action is required? Exactly what, exactly where, exactly who?

These things are easily debated in history professor armchairs, but are not so easily apparent at the exact moment when the execution of action is necessary.

Even you, Wulf, expecting that some magic point is imminent, can't know exactly what, exactly where, exactly who.

And, bereft of the hindsight of history, one of two things will inevitably occur:

1) The imagined threat will never fully materialize. There will never be that magic moment, because it was never really coming.

2) The imagined threat will materialize and the magic moment will pass by while you were debating what to do.

There is no shame in this. It has to do entirely with not being able to see the future, and with not wanting to be a terrorist, murderer, or agent of anarchy. Because the line between a revolutionary freedom fighter and a terrorist is a line visible only in hindsight. The people who behave in the moment as though they are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN, WITHOUT A DOUBT, that they are RIGHT...

Those people are usually fekking crazy.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:28 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Hindsight is 20/20.

But you have to remember that even the founding fathers were considered, by some, to be crazy.

Thats a crazy we sorely need.

Dammit... I have tons of work I need to do... and Im STILL here.

Actually tho, I know why. I think we are making a difference, by at least talking about this stuff.

My job? Ehhh, not so much.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:32 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok... who said that I was comparing our current leadership to Hitler?

I wasn't. In fact, I was JUST trying to say that we need to watch ourselves. Because each and everyday our freedoms, CAN BE pushed back an inch at a time. So, its up to us to do something to prevent that, to pay attention. To NOT just go along to get along.

Of course you weren't flat-out comparing your current leadership to Hitler: that would backfire too easily. Instead, you just conveniently post a video of a guy mentioning the rise of Hitler, who then proceed to says we, too, should just say NO!

Actually, the speaker is an idiot. I doubt he's ever seen the inside of a history book long enough to read a full page. The guy probably just thought, "What horrible image can I use of an event in history that people should have protested against?" But to take a particularly black page in history and turn it into a cheap "The little engine that could!" rhetoric, just to incite people to take up arms when things don't go their way, that's pretty despicable, IMNSHO.

If there was any valid point to be made, he could maybe have argued that the German population should not have been complacent with their Zeitgeist, and should have stood up to Hitler when the chance still existed. Instead, he just blamed the Jews for their own fate: which is precisely the sort of antisemitism that got Jews persecuted to begin with!

Quote:

Its a simple message, that unfortunately got lost in politics.

No, it's a political message that fortunately got dissed for its simplicity.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:44 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So the message of "Pay Attention" is totally lost because he brought up the Holocaust?

Ok, good to know.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Wulf,

If it is not blazingly apparent to you already, then burn it indelibly into your mind now-

HOW you say something is at least as important as WHAT you are saying. Perhaps moreso.

We may wish it wasn't, bro, but wishing doesn't make it so.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:55 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"HOW you say something is at least as important as WHAT you are saying."

Truth.

I will try to remember this.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Pretty much, Wulf. Also because that example doesn't apply to America, in so many ways. We DO speak up, and vote, to change the government. We CAN; the Jews couldn't. Simple as that.

As to standing up with an armed force, it is to me more theatrical vision than necessity, simply because everything he said is so off the mark when it comes to America.

I don't think there is ANY problem in America with standing up, speaking out, etc. It's our heritage...you don't get the lack of correlation between Germany and America, apparently.

If your point was to stand up and speak up when we see what we think is wrong, I repeat: WE DO! If your point is to pick up a gun and resist our government with armed force: We never needed to, and probably never will.

Anthony nailed it:

Quote:
1) The imagined threat will never fully materialize. There will never be that magic moment, because it was never really coming.

2) The imagined threat will materialize and the magic moment will pass by while you were debating what to do.

I agree especially with 1), obviously.

You are again caught up in theatricallity and black-and-white thinking:

Quote:
So the message of "Pay Attention" is totally lost because he brought up the Holocaust?

No. Because we DO pay attention, we DO speak up, we DO change the government. Enough of us are always paying attention, we don't need to be told to.

High drama is rarely the solution to anything. Working within the system has kept this country together and rich, whether anyone recognizes it or not, all our history. You'll never get ALL of America convinced it requires armed resistance; the last time that happened, look at the results! That's all you'd get, because most of the states see no reason for it...so it would be state against state, and resisting states against the government. Not gonna happen; wouldn't improve things. End of story.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 8:07 AM

Quote:

And, bereft of the hindsight of history, one of two things will inevitably occur:

1) The imagined threat will never fully materialize. There will never be that magic moment, because it was never really coming.

2) The imagined threat will materialize and the magic moment will pass by while you were debating what to do.

There is no shame in this. It has to do entirely with not being able to see the future, and with not wanting to be a terrorist, murderer, or agent of anarchy.

Very good point, Anthony, and one which Dan Carlin brings up quite often. When speaking of the Nazi war with Russia, he asks, "Why could Hitler not see the folly in his strategy?" - and the answer is, "Because he didn't have the benefit of being able to look back at it from the future to see how badly it was going to go for him."

The U.S. knew as early as 1967 that Vietnam could NEVER be won - yet far more American soldiers died after that fact was known than died before it was known. Why? Because sometimes you get yourself in so far, so deep, and your own language has so entrenched your position, that you can't just walk away. You can't pull out and call it done. That's what scares the living shit out of me about Afghanistan today - Obama keeps using the same failed techniques and the same language of ultimatum - "Afghanistan is fundamental to our efforts..." "Afghanistan is the key to our foreign policy..." "If we fail there, we fail everywhere..."

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 8:12 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

... and the system keeps churning forward.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 8:12 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

... and the system keeps churning forward.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 8:40 AM

WHODIED

I just had to chuck this chuckle into the mix, though some of you may have already seen it.

Sorry about the link--I don't know how to post pictures to this site--I promise it's safe, and since mine is NOT an evil laugh...

http://www.gocomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2009/09/19/

--WhoDied

_______________________

Yeah, we're mostly just giving each other significant glances and laughing incessantly.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Wulf, I'm glad to see that you're on board with PAY ATTENTION. But your message is tainted by timing: You came to this realization when Obama was elected, and after GWB left office. So peeps have to wonder: Why were you asleep then? Was it fear of Muslim terrorists and familiarity of a white face that lulled you into acquiescence?

Quote:
Acquiescence is a legal term used to describe an act of a person in knowingly standing by without raising any objection to infringement of his rights

Quote:
the act or condition of acquiescing or giving tacit assent; agreement or consent by silence or without objection; compliance

Believe it or not, you're mostly preaching to the choir here. We may have different ideas about what we think is right, but few of us are motionless and passive about our beliefs. Most of us live our lives doing SOMETHING for the good, however we define it. But the inflamed rhetoric that you keep pushing, implying that we can ONLY solve our problems with a 0.308, is a great danger to democracy. Because a small group of fervent people with guns can only accomplish two things... guerilla warfare or assassination. Assassination won't change a thing- except maybe to usher in more repression. And guerilla warfare is doomed to failure UNLESS you have the support of AT LEAST 30% of the population... people who will feed, clothe, supply, hide, and transport you.

We need fundamental systemic change. But the best way to accomplish that is organized mass action.

BTW- Why do you think Rue.. with whom you disagree violently... uses "Silence is consent" as a tagline????

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:40 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Wulf, ponder it from another angle.

What if you had enough advance warning, to TRY to prevent it from ever quite REACHING that point ?

I've fought my entire life, tooth and claw and every way, to slow, stall, turn aside these things, and with enough attention on it, it's possible to stave that off - maybe even long enough for a real solution.

Cause if it ever DOES come to a gotterdammerung between the citizens and the government, the only real "winner" is gonna be the undertakers.

On that note, people ARE taking notice, as you said, a lot of em for the wrong reasons, but it's a start, and everything must start somewhere.

As for the G20, I still wanna figure out why they were so flamin intent on not letting people LEAVE.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09270/1001203-482.stm
At the park, he said, "People were playing duck-duck-goose and talking. Mostly, I think people were there because the events that had happened the night before ... " he said.

"We weren't doing anything. We weren't confronting them. We weren't even protesting." He said the police didn't give the order to disperse "until they had surrounded most of the park." Many people then left. He said a group was pushed across Forbes Avenue and into the Cathedral of Learning lawn. He said some were turned away by police on Fifth Avenue.

"No matter where you went, there was no way to leave," he said. "A lot of people were saying, 'I'm just trying to leave.'"

-F

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:44 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Wulf, I'm glad to see that you're on board with PAY ATTENTION. But your message is tainted by timing: You came to this realization when Obama was elected, and after GWB left office. So peeps have to wonder: Why were you asleep then? Was it fear of Muslim terrorists and familiarity of a white face that lulled you into acquiescence?"

Ive freely admited that my timing is off. Even my wife has said that I only started giving a damn when a black man was going to be President. So be it.

I'm not going to argue that, because its the truth.

But so what? Isnt it more important, that no matter the reason, I've started paying attention? Learning and looking as to whats been going on, and what is going on NOW?

Yeah, the reason I started paying attention may be rooted in the wrong reason, but that does NOT disavow WHAT Im seeing, which is WRONG.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:50 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

As I recall, your first issue was the evils of health care.

Where does that fall on your list of evils ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay then. Moving beyond the why, and addressing the "What next?" aspect, the reality is that you have to get people on your side if you're going to do anything. Look carefully where you get your support. If you're really on the side of liberty, stay away from the nuts who're ready to man the barricades, because (1) most likely they're racist, right-wing nutters (2) who've prolly already crossed the line into fascism.

ANY small extremist group with guns is only interested in forcing their will on everyone. Even if this group is fighting for civil liberties in a highly repressive state, and even if they manage to succeed, they'll wind up creating their own tyranny because they'll have to fight the 99% who don't want them there. (Think "dicatorship of the proletariat" or the French Revolution. Each started with the idea of freedom for the masses but look where they ended up.)

Where revolutions succeed in creating something other than tyrannies, it was because they engaged the majority of the people. Which means... education and persuasion are your best bets. Its slow and painful, but if you have to make your point with a gun, that means you haven't been able to compete in the "marketplace of ideas".

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 1:35 PM

Quote:

What if you had enough advance warning, to TRY to prevent it from ever quite REACHING that point ?

I've fought my entire life, tooth and claw and every way, to slow, stall, turn aside these things, and with enough attention on it, it's possible to stave that off - maybe even long enough for a real solution.

And ya know the real shits of it? If you're successful, even a little bit, you'll never be able to prove it, and no one will ever know. Nobody celebrates the disasters that DIDN'T happen.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 1:40 PM