That other thread has evolved/devolved into other matters, so I'm posting this separately. Sig spent a lot of time debating that the Civil War was, at i..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

For Sig: Re Civil War

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, August 5, 2024 10:33
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Friday, April 16, 2010 10:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That other thread has evolved/devolved into other matters, so I'm posting this separately. Sig spent a lot of time debating that the Civil War was, at its base, about slavery. I argued against that, and still feel it had to do with other issues, but here is an article that reflects her perspective to a degree:
Quote:

It has been eight years since people in my state of Virginia got a chance to debate the meaning of the Civil War in front of the nation, and the comments posted on CNN and other news Web sites suggest our passion over the topic has not dimmed.

If Governor Bob McDonnell wants his fellow Virginians to think deeply about "how our history has led to our present," then his declaration of April as Confederate History Month has accomplished this goal, if not exactly in the manner he intended.

The problem with the celebration of Confederate History Month, however, goes far beyond McDonnell's "mistake" in not discussing the centrality of slavery in the Civil War in his original proclamation.

Confederate "history" means more than the four years during which Virginia and other states fought a war to form a separate country called the Confederate States of America. It refers to the many uses of Confederate symbols and evocations of Confederate history in the almost century-and-a-half since Appomattox as well.

This long history offers nothing to memorialize. Former Confederate soldiers quickly formed the Ku Klux Klan after the war to attack Reconstruction officials and the black and white Republicans who were trying to run the state, and they sometimes displayed Confederate symbols as part of their work. After congressional hearings shut down the Klan, copycat organizations continued to make use of Confederate symbols as they engaged in acts of political terrorism.

Former Confederates openly supported and participated in what many white Southerners called the "redemption" of the region, the reassertion of their control over state and local governments as Reconstruction ended.

In the 1870s and 1880s, the decoration of Confederate graves with flowers and flags and celebratory speeches and parades increasingly signaled a commitment to what came to be called the "Lost Cause," a decidedly partisan and self-consciously politicized account of the Civil War.

Though many supporters of secession believed during the Civil War that they were fighting against other Americans over the issue of slavery, amateur and professional historians, many with ties to the Confederacy worked to rewrite this history as a noble fight for states rights and a celebration of the sacrifice of Confederate soldiers. What members of the Sons of the Confederacy offer today as the "true" history of the region has its roots in this effort.

By the end of the 19th century, organizations like the Confederate Veterans and the Daughters of the Confederacy organized public acts of commemoration and the celebration of the "honor" of former Confederates.

Members of these organizations actively used their version of history to support the disfranchisement of African-Americans and the expansion of a white supremacist social order grounded in segregation. Across the region, Jim Crow segregation and Confederate commemoration expanded hand in hand, as the Lost Cause version of the Southern past justified the contemporary elimination of black rights.

When more subtle displays of Confederate symbols and history were not enough, white Southerners violently attacked and murdered African-Americans, sometimes publicly before large crowds. Lynchers sometimes brandished Confederate symbols.

In the early 20th century, monuments to Confederate soldiers appeared on courthouse lawns across the South and on the grounds of southern state capitols, marking these public spaces as the property of the white people who celebrated this "Confederate" version of the past. By the 1920s, a revived Klan made the Confederate battle flag their second-most important symbol, after the fiery cross, as they once again used violence and threats of violence to uphold white supremacy.

With the NAACP's victory in Brown v. Board of Education and the success of the Montgomery bus boycott, some white Southerners revived the use of Confederate versions of the past and Confederate symbols in their fight against the civil rights movement and integration.

Crowds who attacked civil rights activists sometimes carried Confederate flags as civil rights supporters carried American flags and sang "The Star-Spangled Banner" to counter these Confederate symbols. Called the "country club Klan" because of its public condemnation of violence, the White Citizens Council also used Confederate versions of the past in its opposition to African-American equality.

Today, Confederate history is as much about 1965 and the Voting Rights Act as it is about 1865 and Lee's surrender. The long history of the ways Confederate symbols have been used and Confederate history has been evoked to support racist violence and African- American oppression haunts Gov. McDonnell's declaration of Confederate History Month.

Confederate history cannot be separated from the issue at the center of the Civil War, slavery. But it also cannot be separated from the history of segregation, massive resistance, and the fight against the civil rights movement.

Historically, Confederate versions of the past and Confederate symbols have meant opposition to equal rights for all Americans. In officially recognizing Confederate History Month, Gov. McDonnell is asking Virginians to join together in celebration of this history of white supremacy.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/14/confederate-history-is-about-rac
e/?hpt=Sbin


In light of the above, I concede to a degree. It's hard for an outsider to get the real "feel" for something such as this; it was an eye-opener for me. It also answered my question about romanticizing the Civil War in some ways.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, April 17, 2010 1:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Since that was written by someone from Virginia, I find it hard to disagree. I have no personal experience with people from the south (except brief visit to Birmingham, where I found the folks insular and wary of "strangers").

But statistically, the "south" is currently no more racist than the "north-east", and so I find myself feeling that while the Confederate flag WAS a symbol of slavery and IS a symbol of racism, and was re-purposed in-between by the south, we're not always talking about the same set of people in an unbroken chain of history. White supremacists in Montana, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, and California have appropriated the Confederate flag as their own, even though neither slavery nor the Civil War is part of their history. And those in the South who romanticize the Confederacy are not necessarily racists.

I guess all I was doing was trying to balance the record for southerners who have gentrified the Civil War to the point where slavery no longer appears in the record books. The Civil War WAS primarily about slavery and racism. It was an economic war between a slave-based agrarian economy and a wage-based industrialized economy over the future of the West. Either side would have been severely crippled had "the other" side won the west: the south would have expanded its slave-based cotton plantation wealth, the north needed an outlet for their excess population as well as a source of food for their industrializing base.

Dressing it up with tales of honor, chivalry and states' rights doesn't change that fact, painful as it might be to those who would like to claim their southern (or northern!) heritage.



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Saturday, April 17, 2010 3:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


In fact, now that I think about it, southerners who romanticize the Civil War are doing their best to disengage the Confederacy from it's history of racism and slavery. In effect, you have people using the Confederacy for two distinct purposes: one group who uses it specifically to rally racists, another group who would really, really like that connotation to fade so they don't have to remember what started it all.

Seems to me that the second group is being dishonest with itself. Not racist, but self-deluding. The Confederate flag has NO history before the Civil War. If southerners want to reclaim a heritage divorced from slavery, they should look to a different symbol than the Confederate flag and a different cause than the civil war. I suggest southern cooking, and bourbon. That's something we can all agree is a contribution!

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Saturday, April 17, 2010 6:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree, and I think there's more they could be proud of, too, if they wanted to. You're probably right about the two facets who romanticize it or use the flag for racist purposes, and I agree the first is to an extent deluding themselves.

There are many aspects of the "Old South" that ARE pretty and romantic, but completely leaving out that they were made possible by slavery is urealistic. Personally, I would see no problem in revering the romantic aspects of the Old South, as long as it showed the whole picture. It's absurd to ignore it, but put in context it would be a PART of a culture--the problem is we get either "Roots" or "Gone With the Wind"--little in between.

I just thought you'd find that interesting.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, April 23, 2021 8:22 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


You Shoot Us, We Shoot You,' Columbus Protester Tells Cops

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/04/20/watch-they-shoot-us-we-s
hoot-them-columbus-protester-tells-cops
/


How We Romanticize War!
https://candidobservation.com/2012/02/24/how-we-romanticize-war/

Rightwing Nutbag Tinfoil Head News?
The 5 Reasons America Seems Doomed to Split Up
https://rightwingnews.com/column-2/the-5-reasons-america-seems-doomed-
to-split-up
/

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Friday, April 23, 2021 10:37 AM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
You Shoot Us, We Shoot You,' Columbus Protester Tells Cops

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/04/20/watch-they-shoot-us-we-s
hoot-them-columbus-protester-tells-cops
/


How We Romanticize War!
https://candidobservation.com/2012/02/24/how-we-romanticize-war/

Rightwing Nutbag Tinfoil Head News?
The 5 Reasons America Seems Doomed to Split Up
https://rightwingnews.com/column-2/the-5-reasons-america-seems-doomed-
to-split-up/

Odd, seeing how the reichwing you support is constantly murdering people, and you say nothing.



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Friday, April 23, 2021 11:28 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


No they aren't.

--------------------------------------------------

Imagine the hypocrisy of a government who will allow businesses to card people to get a job or buy groceries, but won't card people to vote in elections and gives millions of non-citizens free money from taxpayers.

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Friday, April 23, 2021 2:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Quote:

Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
You Shoot Us, We Shoot You,' Columbus Protester Tells Cops

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/04/20/watch-they-shoot-us-we-s
hoot-them-columbus-protester-tells-cops
/


How We Romanticize War!
https://candidobservation.com/2012/02/24/how-we-romanticize-war/

Rightwing Nutbag Tinfoil Head News?
The 5 Reasons America Seems Doomed to Split Up
https://rightwingnews.com/column-2/the-5-reasons-america-seems-doomed-
to-split-up/

Odd, seeing how the reichwing you support is constantly murdering people, and you say nothing.



Do you know who is constantly murdering blacks?

Other blacks.

And yet, you say nothing.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Friday, April 23, 2021 4:02 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Yup.

--------------------------------------------------

Imagine the hypocrisy of a government who will allow businesses to card people to get a job or buy groceries, but won't card people to vote in elections and gives millions of non-citizens free money from taxpayers.

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Friday, August 25, 2023 8:26 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


they got the Mugshot

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Tuesday, July 2, 2024 3:27 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Was Macron right to warn of a ‘civil war’ in France after the coming election?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/france-macron-far-right-civil-war
-b2571353.html

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Tuesday, July 2, 2024 9:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
Was Macron right to warn of a ‘civil war’ in France after the coming election?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/france-macron-far-right-civil-war
-b2571353.html

yes and no.

Will there be a spontaneous civil war?
No.
Will NGOs gin up protests and violence to blunt le Pen's growing power?
Yrs, I think so.
They'll slag her morning, noon and night and accuse her of being Putin's whore and a Nazi and anything else they can dream up, and flood their channels with hysteria. Just to wind up s segment of the population.

Yanno, just like they did with Trump.

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger

Why SECOND'S posts are brainless: "I clocked how much time: no more than 10 minutes per day. With cut-and-paste (Ctrl C and Ctrl V) and AI, none of this takes much time."
Or, any verification or thought.

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Monday, August 5, 2024 10:33 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Downing Street condemns Elon Musk for claim ‘civil war is inevitable’ in UK amid far-right riots and attacks

https://news.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-criticised-claim-civil-115613742
.html



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