REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

America's Two Nations

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Thursday, October 14, 2010 14:10
SHORT URL: http://goo.gl/PoUFJ
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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:22 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2010/10/the_penury_of_a
mericas_middle.html


Interesting piece, would be interested to hear what Americans think of it.

I think the religious aspect of America's conservatism is overplayed, as usual when liberals are lamenting about why America isn't more progressive (I think it's a red herring, more of a symptom than a cause)...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I think our people have our problems, and its up to us to figure them out and correct them.

... btw, people DO know that most of the "rebels" int he Civil War were not slave owners, right?

Owning a slave, WAAAAY back when, was like owning am expensive front-end loader...

only the rich could afford them.

Most Southerners fought for independance because they wanted the North (and the overreaching government) out of their business.



"I got no strings, so I have fun
I'm not tied up when we need one
They've got strings but you can see
There are no strings on me!"

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Interesting article, and something I agree with for the most part. I disagree, however, that
Quote:

Its capture of key nominations in the Republican Congressional primaries proved its support extended far beyond this core activist group.
The far-right candidates who won their nominations did so because they fired up their base; the turnout was very small, which meant that those who chose to vote were mostly those who had been fired up enough to DO SO. Look at the facts and figures; it's very clear.

The telling point will be how much support those candidates get in the Midterms. If they win by some kind of viable margin, that will prove that a) it's support DOES extend beyond it's core, and/or b) Americans are so angry and frightened they're not voting in their best interests.

As to religious conservatism, it would be a simple matter to find out how many Tea Partiers, Conservatives and Republicans have strong religious ties and are extremely religious in their beliefs. Been there/done that; evangelicals, born-again Christians and fundamentalists are, by a majority, conservatives.
Quote:

Survey: Most tea partiers are socially conservative, almost half identify with religious right.

Nearly half (47%) also say they are part of the religious right or conservative Christian movement. Among the more than 8-in-10 (81%) who identify as Christian within the Tea Party movement, 57% also consider themselves part of the Christian conservative movement.

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/10/05/survey-most-tea-partiers-are-soc
ially-conservative-almost-half-identify-with-religious-right
/

By the way, the survey also found that
Quote:

more than half of white evangelicals support the tea party.
In another study:
Quote:

The study found significant overlap between the Tea Party, made up mostly of Republicans, and the religious right.

"Members of the Tea Party are certainly potential supporters of a Christian conservative agenda," said Robert Jones, an author of the study.

Nearly half of those who identify with the Tea Party believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, and a similar proportion thinks that public officials do not pay enough attention to religion, the survey found. They are more likely than the population as a whole to view America as a Christian nation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101005/pl_nm/us_usa_elections_teaparty

How about Gallup?
Quote:

About half of Republicans are non-Hispanic whites who are strongly religious, defined as those who attend church about once a week or more frequently. Forty percent of Republicans are whites who attend less frequently.

Democrats, on the other hand, comprise only 20% highly religious whites, with more than twice as many whites who attend church less frequently.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118937/Republican-Base-Heavily-White-Conser
vative-Religious.aspx


As to the Tea Party:
Quote:

Tea Party Closely Linked to Religious Right, Poll Finds

Nearly half of those who identify with the Tea Party movement are part of the religious right, according to a Public Religion Research Institute poll released today.

Eight out of ten Americans who identified with the Tea Party were Christians and 47 percent said they were part of the Christian conservative movement, the poll found.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2010/10/tea-party-closely-linked-to-r
eligious-right-poll-finds.html


By the way, it also reported
Quote:

The movement remains a small part of the population overall. Christian conservatives make up 22 percent of the population but those who favor the Tea Party only comprise half of that, about 11 percent of the population. An overwhelming majority of Americans, 94 percent, who support the Tea Party movement were white men and more than half were 50 or older.
and
Quote:

Six in ten respondents who said they were part of the Tea Party also said Fox is their trusted source for news, more than twice as high as the general population.
That last one kind of says it all, for me.

The only ones claiming there isn't an overabundance of religion in the Tea Party, Republicans or conservatives are those themselves; facts show otherwise. The conservatives and Tea Partiers currently focus on fiscal conservativsm and smaller government; but if you look at their stand on social issues, it's right in line with the religious right. They're just quiet about it for the most part lest it turn off moderate voters.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:11 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


It was an interesting article. An outsiders view can often be very informative, even though I don't think it was completely right.

Niki, I don't want to jump to conclusions on what your saying, so I'm mostly going to ask questions, and I don't mean for anything to sound offensive. Is there anything wrong with being christian or (dare I say it) evangelical and being involved in government? Do you believe a person can be christian or even evangelical, without it dictating their governmental aspirations and agenda? Or is this a just a comment on differing cultures being an obstacle to working together?

I'm a christian conservative (though I am kinda reevaluating the conservative part) and I was under the impression that both Christianity and conservative-ism ideologically called for a separation of church and state, meaning in the political context, people's religion should be irrelevant. 'Course, we know not every Christian or Conservative behaves in that manner, but shouldn't we attribute that to their personal failure rather than the fault of the party at large? Or am I still a young idealistic fool?

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Absolutely, and not offended, glad you mentioned it. There isn't a damn thing wrong with being of any religious belief and being involved in politics. Of course I believe a person can be of any religious persuasion and still be a good legislator and not let their religious beliefs get into it.

My problem is that some of these people DO want to push their social agenda on others, DO want to legislate our bodies, our rights and our lives according to their religious agenda, while at the same time saying they want less government intrusion in our lives. They are minimizing their social agendas to focus on the fiscal agenda in order to get elected, but I do not trust them to put their religious views aside if they are elected.

I'm anti-organized religion, as I've said, so I do distrust anyone too enmeshed in ANY religion, especially when they espouse that others SHOULD be, which some of these candidates have. Too much religion in government goes the way of a Theocracy, as in Iran, and is dangerous to those not of a specific religion, or not religious ENOUGH for some in power.

What I posted was in response to the frequently-heard cry that the Tea Party or conservatives aren't religious and don't reflect the religious right, when some of the current Tea Party candidates are just that, are not being honest about it, and I believe would definitely interject their religious beliefs into our government if they could.

As long as I could be assured that there would be a distinction between church and state, I would have no interest in anyone's religious preferences. I cannot at ALL, currently, when it comes to the Tea Party, particularly given things they theymselves have said.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:18 AM

DREAMTROVE


Curious. I suspect that if it comes to that, then I probably fight on the red side, but if the blue side has better protection of civil liberties, then I fight blue.

I don't think this is how it goes down though. I think it is one red-blue alliance of power in the NWO and it's one independent red-blue resistance against that power. I don't know who wins.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It's not about ideology, if it is to that which you are referring. It's more about which side is more interesting to portray...and for some guys, I have no doubt, which side has the neater uniform, weapon, etc., etc. It's not about politics.

Actually, I imagine if it WERE about politics or nationality or something, they'd kill one another and that would be the end of reenactment as a hobby!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
It's not about ideology, if it is to that which you are referring. It's more about which side is more interesting to portray...and for some guys, I have no doubt, which side has the neater uniform, weapon, etc., etc. It's not about politics.

Actually, I imagine if it WERE about politics or nationality or something, they'd kill one another and that would be the end of reenactment as a hobby!




Ummmm... I think you're obsessing a bit. DT wasn't referring to reenacting anything, but about ideological red-v-blue political views and the fights engendered by those beliefs.


The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA



See, that is what makes me unconfortable about the tea party folks, and yes, that yes-no, black-white, on-off, red-blue thinking is a danger and a prelude to conflict, always.

My ancestors were pro-confederate, but given their history and whatnot, more aggressive neutrals than on any one "side" or the other, even back in 1776 they had no great love for the continentals, it was more a matter of ferguson being an asshole and demanding they hand over their guns - which to this very DAY is the fastest way to piss off a watauga.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watauga_Association
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kings_Mountain

They were prettymuch that periods equivalent of self-rule anarchists, and later were also heavy supporters of union labor, particularly the UMWA and the IWW, both of whom got the notion that racism was idiotic a good fifty and more YEARS before the rest of the nation caught up...
http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~epf/1999/choi.html
(And again, curses on the head of Gompers and the fucking AFL!)

So while unsympathetic to big, overreaching, interfering government - I don't happen to be sympathetic to the other side much either, just like my ancestors I happen to be more of an aggressive neutral, in this one.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:10 PM

DREAMTROVE


There is no tea party type. The tea party is this:

10% Ron Paul Revolution + 10% Ross Perot's Reform Party, infiltrated by GOP operatives and then add 80% morons who will believe anything that some talking head like Glenn Beck tells them.

This is exactly how the mainstream parties work, because TPTB know the formula for twisting things on their head: Just add morons.

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