The Hunger Games by Wulfenstar

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

What? Do none of you read anything other than news or poli-sci books?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 2:54 AM

CANTTAKESKY

This looks interesting.

I'm reading Cory Doctorow books. Little Brother, For the Win...

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Monday, January 3, 2011 5:56 AM

KANEMAN

I mjust uploaded to my nookcolor...I,ll get back to ya

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Monday, January 3, 2011 7:47 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

The Capitol is either NY or L.A.

In my humble opinion of course.

Plus.. this is what happens if we fail.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 7:50 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Just read the books you aliterate bastards.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 12:37 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I've read all three. I loved the first one, but by the third, I found it all a bit tedious and hard to believe.

Katniss is a great character and the initial premise of the games and the way that society operates is truly brilliant.

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Monday, January 3, 2011 12:39 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Why "hard to believe"?

"Katniss is a great character and the initial premise of the games and the way that society operates is truly brilliant."

In ancient Rome, maybe. But do you really believe that the society depicted in these books is "brilliant"?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 12:54 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I love how you misspell the very word you're cursing us with!

Quote:
Just read the books you aliterate bastards

It's "illiterate", little one, and by telling me to go read a book of YOUR choise, you give me free reign to say "go fuck yourself, illiterate bastard!"

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, January 3, 2011 1:01 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"I love how you misspell the very word you're cursing us with!"

And I just love how you don't realise how DEEPLY I'm insulting you...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aliterate

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 1:48 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

“Only I keep wishing I could think of a way to…to show the Capitol they don’t own me. That I’m more than just a piece in their Games”

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 1:52 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Why "hard to believe"?

I thought the last book was poorly written and the plot contrived and manipulative.

Quote:
"Katniss is a great character and the initial premise of the games and the way that society operates is truly brilliant."

In ancient Rome, maybe. But do you really believe that the society depicted in these books is "brilliant"?

You misunderstand me. I meant that it was a great premise for a story...not that I wanted to live there.

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Monday, January 3, 2011 1:55 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Manipulative?

My arrow would have gone the same place.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 1:55 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I read them a few months ago. Decent writing, plenty of momentum, semi-interesting premise. Not anything I would re-read or likely recommend. I think it sacrificed a great deal of character and setting development in favor of action and drama, and it ultimately fell a bit flat for me. I know that it was about the conflict and the battle and all, but if I don't care about the characters, a work is far less interesting. I went from not caring much about Katniss to actively disliking her and back again. Some minor characters produced twinges of interest or empathy, but not much, and then they tended to die or just vanish. So, they were quick reads that distracted me for a time, but they weren't really diverting. I've read many much better works.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Monday, January 3, 2011 1:57 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"You misunderstand me. I meant that it was a great premise for a story...not that I wanted to live there."

Some of us DO live there.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 1:59 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

These arn't characters to me.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 2:03 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Well you are a bit sad then.

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Monday, January 3, 2011 2:05 PM

LILI

Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.

You're being ridiculously dramatic, Wulf. There might be some twisted darkness in the world today, but there's nothing like this going on.
If it resonates with you, then the author did her job because that is what good fiction does; it exaggerates the human condition in order to tell a story that people will respond to. But good God, saying that "some of us are living there" and that "these aren't characters to me" like you live in a place that hunts you down with monsters is ludicrous. If you lived in that world, there is no way you'd have internet access or be allowed to whine this way. QED

Facts are stubborn things.

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Monday, January 3, 2011 2:19 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"You're being ridiculously dramatic, Wulf. There might be some twisted darkness in the world today, but there's nothing like this going on.
If it resonates with you, then the author did her job because that is what good fiction does; it exaggerates the human condition in order to tell a story that people will respond to. But good God, saying that "some of us are living there" and that "these aren't characters to me" like you live in a place that hunts you down with monsters is ludicrous. If you lived in that world, there is no way you'd have internet access or be allowed to whine this way. QED"

So...

A government that sets its citizens against each other, one where the people are disarmed and powerless, in which people work to their death to barely feed their children while giving most to some overseeing self-same government, while also living in abject poverty (and grateful to be), and all the time wishing for a way out from under... rings no bells?

Which Capitol do you live in? L.A. or N.Y?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 3, 2011 2:24 PM

LILI

Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.

I live in Wisconsin oh consistently delusional one.

Facts are stubborn things.

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Monday, January 3, 2011 2:42 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I suppose I should have known that actual discussion of the actual books wouldn't be possible in this thread.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 4:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I read them a few months ago. Decent writing, plenty of momentum, semi-interesting premise. Not anything I would re-read or likely recommend. I think it sacrificed a great deal of character and setting development in favor of action and drama, and it ultimately fell a bit flat for me. I know that it was about the conflict and the battle and all, but if I don't care about the characters, a work is far less interesting. I went from not caring much about Katniss to actively disliking her and back again. Some minor characters produced twinges of interest or empathy, but not much, and then they tended to die or just vanish. So, they were quick reads that distracted me for a time, but they weren't really diverting. I've read many much better works.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

I'm partially into the first book, and, unless something changes, I think I will agree with your assessment. Also, the first person perspective in this book really bugs me for some reason...

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 6:30 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I love how you misspell the very word you're cursing us with!"

And I just love how you don't realise how DEEPLY I'm insulting you...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aliterate

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

She should have called the spelling fairy before making an asshole of herself....hilarious. thanks for the laugh

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 6:41 AM

BYTEMITE

I've heard about them from a couple relatives who have read them.

Based on the description, they sound like a poor satire on concepts of survival of the fittest and the end result of the circus and bread transformation of the media. Not to say the message isn't a bad one, since the society depicted in the book appears to be hell on earth and some anvils need to be dropped.

For me, most modern literature the writing style and narrative frame is either annoyingly pretentious or uninspired, and I wouldn't likely find anything to appreciate. Not that I have free time to read much anyway. I could say much the same about movies, or television. The only thing I find much enjoyment in anymore is internet based conversation, assuming my ass isn't presently being scorched off.

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 8:06 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachite:
Also, the first person perspective in this book really bugs me for some reason...

I would hypothesize that's because it's the perspective of a totally unsympathetic character. Usually first person perspective gives the most insight into a character and you can step into their minds and such. It can be a great storytelling device when it's being used as a character device. Katniss is unsympathetic and the stories are not character driven, so first person was the totally wrong way to go with it.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:56 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Unsympathetic?

Really?

Why do you say that?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:11 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I say it because I feel it to be true.

I've already said that character development was severely sacrificed in these books. The internal motivations are never deeply explored, even though first person is the perfect way to do it. She wants to save her sister, but their relationship is never described. Beyond being her sister, no reason is given for why she wants to save Prim. She's consistently flat and emotionless. The most intense emotions she's ever described as having are anger and terror, and even those are barely brushed upon. We know she's terrified because she's running, or angry because she wants to fight, but the actual emotions and motivations are minimally described. The flat emotionlessness makes her rather callous throughout the entire story, disregarding what anyone else might feel about her actions. She is, quite simply, a selfish little girl. She's unlikable and unsympathetic. When she was actually doing the right thing I didn't care much, and the rest of the time I actually disliked her. The most interesting character in the books, to me, was probably Peeta, and I only barely cared about him, probably because the perspective character only cared in a shallow kind of way, without motivation being described or explored. Having it from her perspective really hurt the narrative.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:18 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder

http://ptsd.about.com/od/symptomsanddiagnosis/a/PTSDsymptoms.htm

Maybe Im seeing more than is there... but...

That "flat emotionlessness *WHICH* makes her rather callous throughout the entire story" seems rather intuitive to the character.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:29 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

She might have started with PTSD, she certainly had it by the end of the first games, but that doesn't mean she's sympathetic or holds up the story. I've read good characters who have PTSD. The trauma and motivation is described, and it makes them interesting. Katniss was flat, and she was selfish. Also, the trauma of the games and war barely touched her. She freaked out one time and went all Blue Screen of Death for a bit later on, but then she was back to normal in no time. It was inconsistent. If her emotions were going to be shut down, the motivations should still have been described, especially since it was all in first person. The fact remains that she should not have been the perspective character. The narrative should have been third person since it was primarily about the conflict and not about the characters. It still probably wouldn't have been one of my favorite works, but it would have been better.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:42 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
The most intense emotions she's ever described as having are anger and terror, and even those are barely brushed upon. We know she's terrified because she's running, or angry because she wants to fight, but the actual emotions and motivations are minimally described.

Which explains why she appeals to Wulf.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 12:55 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"The trauma and motivation is described, and it makes them interesting."

Like a lab experiment? What actually makes it interesting is the LACK of motivation.

"It was inconsistent."

Yeah. And it was perfect in that.

The first person perspective was a brave attempt, in my opinon.

The motivations of the charecter were purposefully left shallow. Because people with PTSD, or those who have faced horrible things, rarely sit and analayze the inner workings of why they think the way they do, or the actions they take.

Mostly, they react.

Their reactions shed light on the charecter of themselves, and show in the most base way, their true thread.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 1:23 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
people with PTSD, or those who have faced horrible things, rarely sit and analayze the inner workings of why they think the way they do, or the actions they take.

That's debatable, but I won't debate it with you. Even working on the assumption that you're correct, it doesn't justify it as a narrative device. Reality might be inconsistent, but a narrative shouldn't be. Fiction is meant to be simple and compelling. Reality is always more complicated. Storytelling differs from the real world for a reason; reality is usually less interesting to read or watch than it is to live. To make it interesting, it's cut to the bone, with only the biggest pieces at the forefront. Conflicts are exaggerated, which was done in Hunger Games to an immense extent. Emotions are exaggerated, which was done not at all. Character traits are exaggerated, which was possibly done, as most characters only had one or two traits. But none of the traits were really explored, so they were cut down on but not then exaggerated.

From a narrative perspective, it did not work. It didn't make me care, it didn't make me interested, it didn't make me like the books. There was plenty of action and that's all that made them readable. The characterizations were full of fail. The only one I cared about at all was Peeta. He also, by the way, was very likely traumatized, but instead of being selfish and dead inside he cared for people. He was, simply, a very decent human being, which made him far more sympathetic than the supposed protagonist. He was the only one, really, to produce more than a twinge or two. If his character could have been explored more, say from a third person perspective, it would have possibly been better. As it was, the characterizations were weak at best.
It may have been brave, but the attempt was still poor. Even if it was supposed to be about PTSD, selfish and dead inside is not interesting to read about. If the characters aren't sympathetic, then I don't care much what happens to them, that's just how narrative works. That's why fiction has rules that reality does not.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Tuesday, January 4, 2011 2:11 PM

BYTEMITE

Hey Wulf, I'm really interested in PTSD related stories. Maybe I should read the first book then, I usually give dystopic novels a try because there's usually some element of truth in them. I guess I figured I just knew all I needed to know about the books.

Have you read The Things They Carried? I recently read another book by the same author, In the Lake of the Woods, and that was really neat about PTSD and suppressed memories and the tricks that can play on a person's mind. The writing had it's flaws but the PTSD itself is handled very well, the guy who wrote it was a vietnam war vet himself and knows what it's actually like himself.

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Wednesday, January 5, 2011 9:41 AM

Byte, have you read "The White Mountains" (book one of the "tripod trilogy")? That would be worth looking at for the dystopian angle. Reading "The Hunger Games" reminds be a lot of it... It is an older book, but it looks like people still like it on amazon... http://www.amazon.com/White-Mountains-John-Christopher/dp/0689856725/r
ef=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294256058&sr=8-1 That being said, "The Hunger Games" is very well liked on Amazon, too, and I only think it is okay or maybe kinda good, so far...

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Wednesday, January 5, 2011 9:43 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Byte:

I'll give it a try. :)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, January 6, 2011 6:06 PM

GREENKA61

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I highly recommend this series of (3) books. Have any of you read them? What do you think?

I love The Hunger Games series. I read it, then gave it to my 70 year old mother who stayed up until 2:00 in the morning finishing it, the hunted down the second book the next day at the library.

I just started a book club at school and it's the first book we're reading. The three kids who showed up are asking some really good discussion questions.

Can't recommend this book enough.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 10:50 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

It took me 2 days to read all 3.

I stayed up late reading, then passed out, only to grab the books first thing in the morning.

To me, they were THAT good.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, February 14, 2011 4:27 AM

So, I finally got the book on CD (so don't mind me if I don't know how to spell the characters' names) back from the library (there is a long waitlist for it) and am now 2/3 of the way through it. The book is really growing on me. I think the actual start of the games helped because more action meant less of the main character's annoying thoughts which I know have to change.

Spoiler alert!!! Do not read past this point unless you have read the book. (I'll try to be vague, though). Also, I really like Rue, and have had the most attachment to her. She, more than Prim, has been the main spur for Catness's (sp?) growing maturity and realization about the Hunger Games. Through her, Catness seems to finally be gaining some insight about how to rebel, even if it is in a small way so far.

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Monday, February 14, 2011 5:07 AM

DREAMTROVE

Lili cracked me up here, PR also.

Wulf, read through this thread, and see if you see what I see:

You introduce a topic for discussion. It's met with interest by an audience, which you then attack.

Alternatively: I read a book. Now I have my sword out and will defend it should anyone else happen to have read it as well.

Not contributing here, I haven't read them, but the reviews are interesting. Thought I would comment on the style, because, Wulf, I think if you read your own posts from an outside perspective you will see how combative and over the top it was, initially. It's calmed down a bit now.

Probably just your PTSD, But you should look into it and maybe try to be a little less combative when trying to discuss something you like.

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Monday, February 14, 2011 12:55 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Alternativly: "I found something really good. You all should check it out. Something good and poignant in this wasteland...

so, I'll put my back to it and protect it for anyone that might happen along and see it.."

yeah, yeah, yeah... trying to be less combatative.

:)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 5:14 AM

Spoiler Alert!

So I'm almost finished with the first book. I think Katniss has some features of PTSD. The trauma would be the loss of her father. Her symptoms include some nightmares about him, some avoidance of thinking about him, and "feelings of detachment or estrangement from others" and a "restricted range of affect". I suppose she meets criteria for it, but really the predominant sense I get from her is that she is closed off from her emotions and Collins is emphasizing that aspect of her personality over some of the more obvious aspects of PTSD (like having flashbacks, constant nightmares or severe avoidance of anything having to do with her father, the explosion, and coal mines -- for example, she would have really freaked when her dress was set on fire.) As a result of her father's death, and her mother's shutting down, she had to shut off all significant positive emotions towards others because they leave her too vulnerable. Even with Prim, she struggles to actually come across as feeling loving towards her. She is very dutiful and self sacrificing, but the actual feelings she has towards Prim are something she keeps buried. They are private, something she doesn't want out in the open because they leave her feeling vulnerable. For example, in her telling the story of how she got Prim the goat, instead of emphasizing how much she loves Prim, she emphasizes how the goat ended up earning a lot of money for them. She also struggles with figuring out what her feelings are towards Peeta, because she is not in tune with her emotions and feels too vulnerable sharing them with him (and everyone watching). Another example occurs initially with Rue, when she doesn't seem to have feelings hugging Rue back when they first separate. She gets depressed after Rue dies, but again, must shove those vulnerable emotions down in order to get up and survive. She may best be characterized as using a defense mechanism called "isolation of affect" ( http://www.uic.edu/orgs/convening/coping.htm).Suzanne Collins is able to write characters with a normal range of emotions and personality (Rue and Peeta, and Gregor from her other series), so this must have been a deliberate attempt at writing a character from a different angle. So far, I think she has succeeded in creating a character that has walled herself off from any emotions as a means of surviving and protecting herself, but is being confronted with situations that are making her lower that wall -- we'll see if she actually does, though. It does make it hard to make Katniss an engaging character, though, since oftentimes, Katniss is going through the motions without having a lot of the normal feelings associated with it (she is loyal and self sacrificing, but it feels like it is more out of duty, rather than heartfelt emotion).

Anyways, that is my take on her so far.

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Friday, February 18, 2011 4:25 AM

Wow. So I just finished the book and overall, I really enjoyed it. I feel like I understand Katniss a lot better and can appreciate and admire her character while still being annoyed with her at times. I think Collins did a nice job of capturing what it would be like to be a confused, traumatized, bereaved, teenager trying to survive in that barbaric world, even if that means having to stuff down her emotions. The book really moved me, despite some scenes which seemed contrived. I would definitely recommend the first one, anyway.

So, I have questions for those who liked the book. 1) Did you like it and the character of Katniss immediately, or did it take some time to appreciate the book and character? 2) Did this book move you to tears? (I got choked up with sadness and bittersweetness on several occasions -- I wonder if it was because it was an audiobook or if the printed copy would have had the same effect) 3) Does the series stay good? The third book, for example, only gets 3.5 stars on amazon, I think, which is a significant drop off from the second book.

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Friday, February 18, 2011 7:18 AM