Geneva Conventions by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Geneva Conventions

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Friday, January 14, 2011 21:33
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Thursday, January 13, 2011 4:36 PM

Just a thought:

Getting rid of the Geneva Conventions might have been the *goal* of torture. We have essentially signed out, and we not only know that this means third world dictators will bail on them, but that we want them to.

The reason for doing this is to bring chemical and biological weapons back on to the battlefield, and not in a small supplemental way, but at the principle means of attack. The next war, guns are going to be a footnote. Weapons will be a footnote. Soldiers will be a footnote. The only weapons will be armed predator drones, but half the time, they'll just be bombarding you with chemical toxins or airborne plagues.

Just 'cause the thought occurred to me. And yeah, I know, someone's going to say they're already doing it, and fire away, because that's the sort of information we need, how and where, because that's going to tell us something about where they are headed ultimately with this.

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Thursday, January 13, 2011 4:42 PM

BYTEMITE

I was thinking about that myself when we were talking about hacking predator drones.

I have a suspicion that the first time it happens, they try it out on an American population. Like when they were trying out biological agents. My guess is that they'd try knock out gases first, but later on there are complications because they can never do anything right.

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Thursday, January 13, 2011 7:28 PM

DREAMTROVE

Byte

I concur, and now I will do my own "they're already doing it."

Fracking science does not make sense. There's nothing underlying the use of 1000 chemical additives. In fact, the whole thing makes no sense except to pollute the water supply, and it's more than just to sell the water, they want to kill off the hillbilly population.

I think the first massive test was the intentional gulf oil spill and corexit massive spraying. It didn't make sense to me for a while. Until I saw the effects on the gulf ecosystem, and I thought "this is what they wanted to know, how much toxic effect humans can have using industrial chemical production in water, testing it on the animal kingdom."

Also, after much gnawing, I decided that Obama was part of the team that did that intentionally.

I think the bioattacks against Americans will happen here as they did in Russia: in the hospital, or small clinics. This is a very good reason to fear the vaccine. I fear selectively though. I think that the immunization will probably not be the weapon, the flu shot will be the one.

They will create a panic flu that is more convincing, and they will already have the set up, which will be for the elderly, and will have worked up credibility, and then they'll say "black fly flu" or something, and convince everyone to get it.

I can see them sterilizing people with it.

But when it comes to war, they're going to be using massive Chemical and biological weapons old school, but they'll make their puppet leaders in places like NK do it, so they can label them "bad guys" while not admitting that they are puppets.

Notice we always say we fought wars in vietnam and korea, but never that we fought two wars with china. Three actually, but who is covering. I think PN h a point. china is the NWO testing ground for one world govt.

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Thursday, January 13, 2011 8:33 PM

CANTTAKESKY

I don't think it will just be the flu vaccine or predator drones. I think they will try everything, and those things will interact. You'll get a lot of correlations, but because the results depend on multiple factors interacting, no one will be able to pinpoint the culprits. They'll sound like PN pointing to one or the other, but not to all of them working together.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA

What, y'all somehow missed them shipping vials full of Bird Flu Virus labelled as vaccine, despite how utterly impossible (like, walking through a closed door kind of impossible) it is to violate BSL-3 that completely ?

Baxter Caught Shipping Vaccines With Live Avian Flu Virus To 18 Countries Worldwide
http://preventdisease.com/news/09/031109_baxter.shtml

Considering where it was caught, and Mexicos lower safety/inspection standards and procedures, the outbreak there at damn near exactly the same time never did strike me as coincidental.

Although I did get a heck of a laugh, back when they were all celebrating lab attempts to recreate the infamous 1918 virus, I was pretty sure a faked up "pandemic" was in the wind even then, especially considering Rumsfelds little swine flu ploy back in 1976, during which the vaccine killed more people than the virus...

And then REALLY laughed up my sleeve when (let's not bullshit ourselves, we know they did it) they wilded the damn thing hoping for a pandemic, a panic and a "national emergency" (for obvious reasons) and it GOT STOMPED FLAT by eighty-some years worth of human immune system evolution, bwahahahaha.

Less of a laughing matter was the nightmare that was Gardasil - despite seeing it coming I couldn't get any damn body to LISTEN to me, till the bodies started piling up...

And of course, the notion that a vaccine can be responsible for an outbreak, especially a live/attenuated one, was summarily dismissed also, till they actually managed to successfully track the vector of a recent outbreak...
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-83995.0.html#msg1562416

Which REALLY ought to give you pause about visiting any Walmart which offers Flumist, which is a live/attenuated flu virus sprayed up ones nose - especially as it's often given to kids, who then sneeze, blow it everywhere and put their hands on bloody everything, making the whole store a vector to infect EVERYONE.

The local Walgreens no longer even offers the shots, when during an offhand register conversation with the asst manager, who was manning it cause so many were out sick, she realized there was a 1-to-1 correlation between those who employees who DID get the flu shot, and those who were currently dreadfully ill, if I recall correctly, at least one was even hospitalised.
(And yet not one person who DIDN'T get it was sick.)
Man oh man, seeing the alarm bells start ringing in her head was kinda horrifying, as she had been planning to get the shot herself, but not after that, oh hell no - and that store no longer offers them, period.

What concerns me almost as much as the endless attempts to create or cause a pandemic, which mostly fail cause humans are tougher than they ever were and mother nature doesn't fuck around...

Is that by eroding the public trust if there ever *IS* a real outbreak with a useful vaccine, how the hell are they gonna get anyone to trust them when they have cried wolf so many times - it'd be damn ironic if we near wiped ourselves our because we COULD NOT TRUST the very folk who might have been able to save us, yes ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 3:44 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
it'd be damn ironic if we near wiped ourselves our because we COULD NOT TRUST the very folk who might have been able to save us, yes ?

There are still plenty of people who trust them. Even DT trusts them, just not the flu vax.

Here on RWED, who else distrusts vaccines? You, me, and PN. LOLOL. That should say something.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 5:54 AM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Just a thought:

Getting rid of the Geneva Conventions might have been the *goal* of torture. We have essentially signed out, and we not only know that this means third world dictators will bail on them, but that we want them to.

The reason for doing this is to bring chemical and biological weapons back on to the battlefield, and not in a small supplemental way, but at the principle means of attack. The next war, guns are going to be a footnote. Weapons will be a footnote. Soldiers will be a footnote. The only weapons will be armed predator drones, but half the time, they'll just be bombarding you with chemical toxins or airborne plagues.

Just 'cause the thought occurred to me. And yeah, I know, someone's going to say they're already doing it, and fire away, because that's the sort of information we need, how and where, because that's going to tell us something about where they are headed ultimately with this.

I don't agree with torture or the US use of it. But you know the Geneva convention agreement cuts both ways. If you don't abide by it, even if you are not a signatory, you aren't protected by it. The Geneva convention also dictates who is a legal combatant. The terrorist, Al Quaida forces and insurgents are not legal combatants. If you are not a legal combatant the Geneva accords offer you ZERO protection. If the government had come out and said that the people being tortured at Abu Ghraib were not legal combatants and not entitled to protection under the Geneva accords, I could have at least agreed they were correct. Instead they acted like 5 year olds with their hands in the cookie jar. No respect for that. It means they knew or thought they were doing wrong, but allowed themselves to be talked into it or went with it out of desperation.

Biological weapons are like wildfire. You can't control where it will go or how it will mutate once in the wild. Chemical weapons are more useful. But they are primarily irritants. The lethal stuff has to be SO lethal because it is going to be widely diluted by the atmosphere. That means that it greatly lowers the quality and usefulness of the ground you are taking.

I doubt the next wars will use chemical and biological weapons. Nuclear, possibly. Because the actual environmental impact of a nuke is very low, after a 2-3 month period. People still live in Hiroshima and Nagasaki now. Contamination cleanup? Zero. Mostly because it wasn't recognized as a threat until the really volatile isotopes had already degraded.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 6:08 AM

DREAMTROVE

Frem

I knew I could count on you.

CTS

I don't "trust them." I believe in science. How many times in history has a plague wiped out large swaths of humanity? The black death, cholera, tuberculosis, small pox. The list goes on and on, and even when it *did* get a helping hand from TPTB of the moment, this was *way* before anyone had the power to engineer it.

That flu of 1918? Could have been a German bioattack, but I don't here anyone saying it was, because it probably wasn't, because they probably didn't have that ability... Yet.

But they would have it they had, but we don't have any reason to suspect they did, because the same damn thing happened in the civil war, and killed more people than the war itself. Hell, it happens when conditions are sucky, in war, poor cities, third world countries.

See, I'm an ardent environmentalist, but I don't hold with the touchy feely seelie crowd that most people seem to fall into, that appears to believe:

Mother Nature is

1) good.

2) ordered, fair and balanced

3) likes humans.

Unless you're saying "as a snack."

Mother Nature is one evil badass mother...um... Nature.

Good in as far as creating life is good, but also destroying it, and not caring. Capable of just beating your ass into the ground for no good reason.

Nature has it's own sort of order: chaos, and a delicate balance, that when thrown out of whack, unleashes more chaos until it wipes out whatever is throwing it out of balance.

And liking humans, I sorta covered that one.

So, yes, I posted here that TPTB like vaccines because they want access to your blood. I have many times posted the who what and where of how they deliberately spread AIDS in Africa with Koprowski's fake polio vaccine.

That doesn't mean that Sauk didn't have an actual polio vaccine that saved millions of lives.

If you assumed that everything that the powers that be used as a weapons was therefore an evil invention, you would be living in the sub-stone age, because TPTB will use *everything* as a weapon... Even stones.

ETA

Frem.

You're overlooking two other possibilities, other than evolution:

1) the most likely: they fucked up the formula. They undoubtedly tested it on mice, but you know, mice are 90% human, and only 1% of that difference is that part that makes them small and furry. Most of that difference is in the blood.

2) we have secret hidden allies. Hell, I said I did my part to sabotage rummy's attack plans on Iran by spilling the nasty details to everyone, for which i did get some thanks, but I also got, on the same day all of my websites, on multiple servers, with different companies, closed, deleted, with no explanation other than "there was a glitch, it's a worm, or the simple: sorry, you no longer have an account with us, we have nothing further to add, do not appeal this decision."

Now I *know* that you and John have done the same sort of thing, so how many others are there out there who once in a while through in the sabot just to monkey wrench the powers that be?

'cause if that's what happened, you can bet no one is about to pop up And say "hey I fucked up the plan, Nyah Nyah." and oh, here I am, come and kill me. I'll say it for the same reason John did, because we were already caught. But if I pulled something like that off without getting caught at it, it'd be crickets over here.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 6:33 AM

DREAMTROVE

Hardware

I thought you'd been reading peoples posts all these years.

Geneva conventions don't allow you to torture the random citizenry, that's a talking point.

there were no terrorists, that's a talking point too

Its Al Qaeda, but they were a talking point too.

Also, yes, if you view the attackers and defenders correctly it makes perfect sense. The powers that be intend to immunize themselves, yes, with vaccines, before releasing it. But then, yes, they intend to strike America as well. This is not us vs them, it's class warfare extraordinaire.

The chemical tests, the gulf, the fracking, these are massive contaminations that are at thousands of times the levels needed to kill even when diluted. They do have the capacity to produce this much chemical weaponry, and they've been building that capacity for a reason, and it certainly wasn't to bail out a flailing natural gas industry.

If you don't get what I'm saying, I don't have time, because I have a ton of work to do, but I humbly suggest reading the stuff frem and PN put up, and a few others ilk CTS, underneath this conspiracy is reality, a much clearer world of reality.

I am going to guess that you've dug into it a little, but probably from a democrat side, and not just a blatantly anti govt side

Warning 90% of conspiracy theory is nonsense, even in a given video or text, because those things produced for mass consumption are compilations. Don't let this fool you into thinking 100% of it is bunk. 10% of it is really scary

If you think that who is elected president is going to have more effect on policy than who is chair of the federal reserve, or that votes count more than dollars, perhaps you should re-examine

Yes, when I came here to FFF five years ago, I too would ace said they had their hands in the cookie jar. Now I get the pointlessness of that idea: they *own* the cookie factory.

Ergo: something else is going on.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 8:10 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
That doesn't mean that Sauk didn't have an actual polio vaccine that saved millions of lives.

That is what I mean by trust. You believe this.

Frem, PN, and I don't. Well, at least PN and I don't. (Don't know where Frem stands on Salk or vaccine effectiveness.)

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 8:41 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Getting rid of the Geneva Conventions might have been the *goal* of torture. We have essentially signed out, and we not only know that this means third world dictators will bail on them, but that we want them to.

I disagree. We have upheld the treaty obligations to the letter and if we were to fight another country that was also a signatory of the conventions, then we would continue to honor our obligations.

There are essentially two arguments.

One, what we did to captured bad guys was not a violation of the conventions, ie it did not fit the legal definition of torture and/or the captured terrorists were not soldiers taken in uniform.

Two, the conventions only bind conflicts between the signatory parties, so if we fight a country or entity that did not sign the conventions we are only bound to follow them if we choose to be so bound.

I note for the record that the Uniform Code of Criminal Justice has codified our ban on torture and the treatment of prisoners and remains in effect independent of Geneva limitations.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 11:03 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
it'd be damn ironic if we near wiped ourselves our because we COULD NOT TRUST the very folk who might have been able to save us, yes ?
There are still plenty of people who trust them. Even DT trusts them, just not the flu vax.

Here on RWED, who else distrusts vaccines? You, me, and PN. LOLOL. That should say something.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

I wouldn't say I distrust vaccines as much as I hate needles and medicine. I've never had a flu shot and passed on all the voluntary (but strongly encouraged) free vaccines in college. I don't usually get sick *knock on wood* and when I do I typically recover pretty quickly.

I sort of pretend I'm nobly saving the limited supply for the elderly and those who need it more, but the truth is I hate needles. I'd just about rather get sick than take the shot.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 11:59 AM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Hardware

I thought you'd been reading peoples posts all these years.

Geneva conventions don't allow you to torture the random citizenry, that's a talking point.

there were no terrorists, that's a talking point too

Its Al Qaeda, but they were a talking point too.

Also, yes, if you view the attackers and defenders correctly it makes perfect sense. The powers that be intend to immunize themselves, yes, with vaccines, before releasing it. But then, yes, they intend to strike America as well. This is not us vs them, it's class warfare extraordinaire.

The chemical tests, the gulf, the fracking, these are massive contaminations that are at thousands of times the levels needed to kill even when diluted. They do have the capacity to produce this much chemical weaponry, and they've been building that capacity for a reason, and it certainly wasn't to bail out a flailing natural gas industry.

If you don't get what I'm saying, I don't have time, because I have a ton of work to do, but I humbly suggest reading the stuff frem and PN put up, and a few others ilk CTS, underneath this conspiracy is reality, a much clearer world of reality.

I am going to guess that you've dug into it a little, but probably from a democrat side, and not just a blatantly anti govt side

Warning 90% of conspiracy theory is nonsense, even in a given video or text, because those things produced for mass consumption are compilations. Don't let this fool you into thinking 100% of it is bunk. 10% of it is really scary

If you think that who is elected president is going to have more effect on policy than who is chair of the federal reserve, or that votes count more than dollars, perhaps you should re-examine

Yes, when I came here to FFF five years ago, I too would ace said they had their hands in the cookie jar. Now I get the pointlessness of that idea: they *own* the cookie factory.

Ergo: something else is going on.

Well, by "they" do you mean the government or the military? I don't think most of the rank and file military would have had anything to do with torture. The ones who got bagged were reservists and the woman, (name escapes me now) who was in those pictures has been described to me by someone in her chain of command as being "sub-average intelligence".

And yes, I do think that most governments view us as sheep. Good only for shearing or slaughter.

But back to the Geneva convention thing. It defines 3 categories, legal combatants, illegal combatants and non-combatants. If you're a non-combatant, it is supposed to be a total hands off. So, in that part, yes. Whether or not the Geneva convention even applies in an undeclared war is a matter for military courts.

But the flu release in Mexico? The timing is too opportunistic for it to be a natural event. All those people on holiday traveling home to the 4 corners of the globe? Perfect storm shit there.

There's a long, long history with the government using its own citizens as guinea pigs. And this stuff is only going to end one way. With a lot of blood being spilled.

I just hope it isn't mine.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 9:04 PM

DREAMTROVE

Hardware,

Sorry, yes, I mean whoever is going to make the biological attack, that was the they, unknown as of yet.

CTS

Three things affect my judgment:

History, science and evolution.

We're descended from bonobo apes, their overwhelming cause of death is infectious disease. Its reasonable to assume we inherited this.

Our own history is replete with plagues and epidemics, and just chronic illnesses that accompany situations of life. The conspiracy is not that old, and the disease problem has been consistent throughout recorded history. It is clearly a natural threat, and the main one to the species.

Finally, I do this sort of research myself. I did work on some of the vaccines we're talking about, and I know that the science is solid. There are real threats that will really kill millions of real humans if these are not developed and distributed.

I also understand that that *fact* is being exploited by TPTB for evil.

Bear in mind that TPTB never make things up out of whole cloth, they're not that imaginative. They latch onto global warming because they believe. They think they can use this reality to their advantage. It doesn't turn out to be true, that's inconvenient for them, like the WMDs, they backed the wrong horse, but they thought it was a horse at the time, and not a pig.

So, yes, the bird flu and many things like it are utterly bogus. That said, you know the statistical list of killers of human beings.

Some beliefs are paradoxical, and one of them is this:

If it is true that most people are basically good, then it stands to reason that most people with the skills to develop a vaccine would use that power to heal people.

I once had a job that required a hepatitis vaccine. I chose to get a genetically engineer recombinant protein vaccine series. A couple people who got blood vaccines got HIV from contamination. I knew that was a danger, and I had a pretty firm understanding of genetic engineering and vaccines so I made a smart and safe choice. One guy didn't get the vaccine for whatever reason. He got hepatitis. This wasn't a conspiracy, it was the clash of ignorance, and incompetence.

The job was working with downs syndrome patients who were Hep-B positive. Some of them were very low level, some very high. The low level ones included at least one biter. It was a dangerous job. We were all poor and this was the employment option.

The clinic that gave people aids was incompetent. They have done it a few times over the years, including to a friend of mine. The total number of infections is maybe a dozen for perhaps a million patients. If they were trying to start a plague they would have done worse, but I know them well, they're very highly trained serious professionals with a very serious case of disorganization. They kill people through idiocy.

The genetic engineering was safe and effective. It was done by some biotech company like genentech. When I enter into this part of science, I'm on what i consider to be home turf. There's no mystery for me here. It's a large complex world of macro biochem and jmmunology, but worlds I know fairly well. I know exactly what these people are doing. My belief in their science is not a social or religious belief, its scientific understanding. I could design this stuff myself, and have, not any that have been used, but I have submitted vaccine design eps to corporations using genetic engineering. I think that this is the only way to go now, the other is too hazardous and horridly out of date.

The guy who didn't get the vaccine was unfortunate, and perhaps did not fully understand the reality of the risk. It's an infectious disease, and if you're working with it, you need the vaccine. If you don't want to take the vaccine, don't take the job.

I am the first to say that blood vaccines are used to spread plagues in the third world by people like the WHO.

I also know immunology works, I know how it works, and I can make it work. I also know that if I don't, millions will die. Its not my job, I don't work with vaccines, but studying medicine is a hobby. peoples lives are on the line. Ultimately, I don't like the idea of any intravenous injections, I think that antigens can be built up in pill form.

You say you believe in science. This is science. It's not that complicated. It's a lot simpler than modern chemo. If you prebuilt the response to known signature antigens you create a resistance to the target disease.

And yes, If you're injecting someone's blood, then you can use that as a biological attack.

But why focus on vaccines? Almost none of these attacks are done with vaccines. Well over 90% of the intentional infections in Africa were done with blood transfusions, and the same In the former USSR. My friend who got aids got it from a blood transfusion. Statistically why not attack transfusions?

Your second larges statistical group is going to be organ transplants. Blood vaccines probably third,

That's enough for me to just oppose the idea of blood vaccines.

Sauk developed the first flu vaccine which prevented a recurrence of the 1918 flu. Then he developed the polio vaccine, and polio stopped then he developed an aids vaccine, and IIRC, he died testing it on himself.

That's not the profile of an evil took of tptb.

Also, when you're doing this research, theres a world of difference between people like Sauk and people like Koprowski. One is a scientist, and one is a quack, and you can tell that right away by reading what they write.

Linus Pauling and all those guys from Scripps knew what they were doing to.

Not everyone is evil. Some people are trying to help.

So, sure, Merck is a very large corporation. But that corporation is made up of lots of people. Most of those people are trying to help. Some may be corporate execs after a profit. But a whole lot are scientists trying to cure diseases.

Now, I want you to seriously consider this part:

You have two groups

A) The agenda monkeys who might want to launch a bioattack
B) scientists who are actually trying to help.

Which one do you think knows more about the science of the Human body?

I can tell you, I've read hundreds of thousands of pages of this stuff. I can't say that I've read a single medical report by a eugenicist or modern agenda monkey even of those who have actually carried out medical programs that was even borderline scientifically literate when it came to hardcore biochem.

The real science from the real scientists tell you how it works in what is pretty much indisputable detail. Sure, there's room for error. But these studies always have names from a dozen different countries, many studies on mice, and a very detailed mechanism of action, chemical structures, and every bit of information they give is independently verifiable by anyone with decent knowledge of the subject.

To show you how good I think the science is: I think that in general. The good science here makes the entire field of astronomy look like astrology in the relative accuracy and certainty of what has been done in that field.

Just say, I'm not shooting in the dark here, and I'm not guessing. As I'm writing this Im actually taking a break from reviewing a new vaccine mechanism for use in cancer treatments. The guy who designed it is actually someone I know, personally. That's just a coincidence.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 9:25 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I also know immunology works, I know how it works, and I can make it work.

OK, convince me then. Let's pick one vaccine. How about the one you believe saved millions of lives.

Tell me how Salk's polio vaccine works. The mechanisms. The efficacy studies. The effectiveness studies. What solid, indisputable science exists that would convince me the Salk vaccine really did save millions of lives? Links would be great. PDFs of the papers would be awesome.

Or if you would rather focus on another vaccine, that is fine too. Pick a vaccine. Any one. Show me the science. If I see good science, I can be persuaded.

You can also email me.

ETA: If you want to pursue this argument, let's start a new thread.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, January 14, 2011 9:33 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I did work on some of the vaccines we're talking about, and I know that the science is solid.

Just to redirect, this was the original point I was making. Most people believe the science is solid.

Frem said it would be ironic if we all ended up dying cause we didn't trust the vaccines anymore. I said, there is no danger of that because everyone trusts vaccines except for a few nuts like myself. Even you, who don't trust the people who make them, you trust vaccines. You trust the science. Most people do.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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