Wisconsin protests and the lies about the 'shortfall' by Niki2

Must suck to be a liberal these days, now YOU'RE the bad guys everyone is protesting.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 18, 2011 1:43 PM

LILI

Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Hey, by "we" are you indicating you live in Wisconsin?

Yes indeed. I'm from Racine, I lived in Milwaukee for a time, then came to Appleton for school. Milwaukee is a gorgeous city, but Appleton is far easier to spell.

I like it here, for the most part, but it's hell in the winter. Rachele tried to get a job in Hawaii once, but it didn't pan out. Hopefully someday we'll be able to move to warmer climates, or at least get a winter home.

Facts are stubborn things.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 18, 2011 1:44 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Must suck to be a liberal these days, now YOU'RE the bad guys everyone is protesting.

Your logic is broken.

Ritual is what happens when we run out of rational.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, February 18, 2011 1:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Must suck to be a liberal these days, now YOU'RE the bad guys everyone is protesting.

Your logic is broken.

Ritual is what happens when we run out of rational.

Go to "You Tube", the "Tea Party" is on the way. It's going to be funny!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 12:15 AM

A whozit has no logic. It was not created with one ;)

Oh, the same problems with Egypt? Wisconsin is ruled by a torturer in chief? Oh right, it is

Snap.

[/max snark quotient density]

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 12:28 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I have a friend in Alexandria - she's happy about the changes but I think still fairly careful about speaking her mind too freely. She called me the other day to day hi, and that she was happy with the way things had gone.

There was a lot of bad - political repression and torture - but also economic dysfunction and corruption. Government workers, unions and students were a large part of the protests, protesting for better wages, better work conditions, higher minimum wage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Revolution_of_2011

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 4:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
I am no fan of public employees or their unions. Devil take them.

Yet I fail to see how the changes in Wisconsin are an improvement, so much as an outright assault on the past 100 years of labor. This bothers me.

What bothers me most, however, is that legislators abandoned the political process when they realized they were on the losing side. This is not a desperate, heroic act. I recognize there is a precedent for this (Texas redistricting), but it is an awful one.

Drawing analogies between Egypt and Wisconsin is a bit silly. My Green friends, who often accuse me of apostasy, have stretched for the comparison a lot over the past week. They have riot envy.

Once again I find myself siding with the beast. The devil made those legislators flee the state to shit evil pooh on our political process. The concept of unions dictating what a civil servant recieves in wages and benefits had to have been spawned in hell as well. I would vomit pure joy if the tea party showed up in Wisconsin and beat the parasitic bastards with the gadsden flag. The comparision to Egyptian sand-nigger riots is about as stupid as the creation of the donuthole or light beer. This whole "news event" is being paraded on the television to keep the "real" story from our minds....Mrs. Obama recently shit her pants while coughing really hard.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 6:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What do the rich want?
The ability to suck everyone as dry as possible as quickly as possible, with no wiggling from the victims.

What do the rich hate? Anything that gets in the way of their absolute, unlimited greed:
Taxes.
Government.
The middle class.
Unions.

"For god's sake, don't even DREAM of standing up for your interests!!!! You deserve to be turned into an empty husk, that is your role in life, you stupid insect."

Right now, there is not a quanta's difference between the Tea Baggers and/or the Republican party and the corporate class.

So now for some facts.

COUNTRYWIDE AND THE BANKS BROKE THE PENSIONS. After creating and pushing unrealistically rapacious loans... loans destined to fail... they repackaged them into AAA-rated toilet paper and sold it to insurances (AIG), pensions, and investment banks (Goldman, UBS, etc). After the toilet paper shredded, the big players got bailed out. Bankers? Investors? Doing GREAT! Big bonuses late 2010, champagne parties, private jets, the works, last I heard.

Pensions, mortgages for average Americans? Oh. Well. Got what they deserved for being stupid and especially for being politically unconnected, dontcha see. So, let's stick it to the victims... again. Make THEM pay for bank fraud. Very much like the Enron-created "energy crisis" which looted the CA Treasury of $21 billion. That's what capitalists call a "successful model": rape the poor, and then rape them again.

BTW_ the facts show that public workers get paid LESS and have FEWER benefits than their private-sector counterparts at all levels of education except "less than HS"... and even there, the difference is minimal. I know facts don't get in the way of a lot of folks here, but there they are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:28 AM

Quote:
Signym
What do the rich hate? Anything that gets in the way of their absolute, unlimited greed:
Taxes.
Government.
The middle class.
Unions.

Revisit these some day.

The rich are unconcerned with paying taxes, they have no income. Their rich. Only wage earners pay taxes.

Why do taxes even exist? Why doesn't the govt. just print more money when it needs it? Gnaw it over.

Oh, ditto for govt. Why does govt. even exist? The idea that laws and police alter human behavior in a positive manner has been thoroughly debunked here by people more or less on your side.

If there wasn't a govt, how would the rich get richer. Hell. How would they even know they were rich?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:48 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DT, if we all lived at subsistence level and bartered for trade and there was no such thing as wide-scale cooperation or currency we'd all be more equal. But once you introduce ANY of those things.... things even YOU depend on for your existence, much as you try to stay out of it... then a whole host of other organizations come into being.

And what does that have to do with Wisonsin, or any part of the real world? All of the assumptions that you base your opinion on are unworkable on a practical level, and unworkable even in a theoretical sense.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:32 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"The idea that laws and police alter human behavior in a positive manner has been thoroughly debunked here by people more or less on your side."

Not sure that this is true, but I want to point out that SOMEthing alters human behavior. Otherwise, why do we drive on the right hand side of the road or trade work for electronic bits, behaviors that are clearly socially arbitrary.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:45 AM

GOOD NEWS! The worlds biggest media whore Jesse Jackson is there, now Madison will be on fire in no time! You libs wanted it to get ugly, well the "Civil War 2" is about to begin. I'm going to open an ice cold COORS and watch Madison burn

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 9:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Absolutely, comparing Wisconsin with the protests in Egypt is way out of proportion, and I’m not doing it. It’s a quote. Nonetheless, we DO have some of the same problems they do. Tell me we don’t have

Quote:
disenfranchised youth, high unemployment, and a great divide between the elites and the public at large.

The Egyptians suffered greatly; the protesters in Wisconsin haven’t “suffered” at all and know they are safe from the army or anyone else attacking them with impunity. Nonetheless, I do not deny the similarities listed.

Quote:
outright assault on the past 100 years of labor

That’s precisely what it is. The Governor deliberately gave tax cuts (in almost exactly the same amount as what he’s moaning about being a “deficit” now) just before he pulled this out of the hat. To deny the correlation is pure...well, denial!

As to the legislators; please tell me what alternative they had when something this egregious is done, given that Wisconsin has no filibuster provision or any other form of redress and they KNOW if they provide a quorum, it goes through. It’s precisely what the Republicans did with the filibuster, and did for two freaking years...so to complain about some legislators actually acting on their consciences being the bad guys doesn’t fly with me. IF the Governor had allowed any debate, any compromise, even any DISCUSSION of the issue it would be different, in my opinion. But he demanded it be forced through to be law in a couple of DAYS, which is pure dictatorialism. The people had already SAID they were quite willing to up their contributions to pension/health care; he wants more than that, he wants to bust their rights to negotiate virtually ANYTHING in the future. It’s an obvious, unquestionably ploy, to me.

I’m confused; how is it the liberals “everyone’s protesting”? I didn’t know union employees were protesting “liberals”. I agree that, if a whozit were created with logic, it would definitely show how broken it is by this statement. But I expect no less, so it’s irrelevant, as is the source

Sig, I see the same thing, especially the war on the middle class. Economist I was watching said the logic is that the rich donate huge amounts to political campaigns, the poor have nothing to give, so the obvious target is the middle class, of whom there many remain, they are still supposedly the largest block of Americans, and that’s what is happening. Not that it started NOW...

Quote:
the facts show that public workers get paid LESS and have FEWER benefits than their private-sector counterparts at all levels of education except "less than HS"... and even there, the difference is minimal. I know facts don't get in the way of a lot of folks here, but there they are.

I heard that too...have to look it up, as well as how the healthcare and pensions they receive compare to non-government workers. Will search it out.

It’s pretty predictable to me that the righties are the most vociferous ones defending this issue; it’s not just the rich who hate the things Sig enumerated, it’s the REPUBLICANS, and this is an agenda they’ve had for decades. They are a party of DEstruction, not CONstruction. Everything they’re doing right now is tear down everything they don’t like, as in Planned Parenthood, the unions, ACORN, restrictions on anything business wants, any form of regulation of business, the EPA, Social Security, Medicare, and on and on and on. Seems to me when I look at it that anything and everything that benefits the regular people of America is anathema to them and they’ll do whatever they can to bring it down, while anything and everything that benefits the rich and corporations is their big agenda. Whether what they do is moral, or even legal, doesn’t bother them in the slightest. And a lot of this has been planned for decades and is being implemented because they feel the wave is with them. The Republican Party is very good at being patient, at taking the long view, about using public policy for partisan purposes, to dismantle institutions that make it possible for Democrats to win...unfortunately, Democrats aren’t nearly as good at it.

The Tea Party is causing more harm than good. It’s making a schism between the Republicans, because all these newbies are unable to deal with how government works and are unwilling to compromise on ANYTHING. That’s not how it works; the Republicans know it and I’d bet most of them know that the Tea Party is going to do THEM far more harm than good...already is.

As for the Governor and his legislature having been “swept in” by people who want them to do what they’re doing, that’s untrue. Walker won 52.3 of the vote, a 5% majority; not exactly a landslide, and those who voted for him were fooled by the usual rhetoric. He talked jobs, and he did the usual gamesmanship, lying through his teeth. On the night he won, he said: “Tonight, I want to tell every worker, every family and every business big or small in the state that you have an ally in the governor’s office.” Walker extended his promise to be governor of the entire state, not just those who voted for him, and also highlighted his intentions to work with both Republicans and to help get the state back on track. ( http://badgerherald.com/news/2010/11/03/scott_walker_the_nex.php). And if you bought that... Obviously it was politispeak, given he almost immediately gave tax cuts to business in almost the exact amount of the “deficit” he is now crying that he has to bust the unions to overcome. How can it be any clearer?

As to unions in general, in Wisconsin their numbers have been going DOWN for a long time. In 1954, 35% of wage and salaried employees in America were in unions. By the year 2000, it was down to 13%. By 2010, it was down to 11.9%. The unions aren’t the problem. And the unions are virtually the ONLY group contributing to the Democratic party and their candidates’ campaigns.

In 2008, five groups spent the most money on the election: Three of them were The Chamber of Commerce, Freedom Watch and the NRA (all on the right), and the Service International Union and the (Wisconsin-founded) Public Sector Union on the left. Two unions. Bust them, there’s no “big” groups funding the left. In the next election, after the good old Supremes sold us out with Citizens United, of the top TEN outside-spending groups in last year’s election, SEVEN of them were right-wing groups, only three funded the left—-all three unions.. In terms of large-scale money spent in elections, unions are the only viable competition Republicans have. So get rid of THEM, and...

I think he’s the test case for the Republicans. Labor unions began in Wisconsin; what better place to try to kill them? If he succeeds, they’ll up their attack on unions nationwide, and if they succeed, watch out. Corporate “united citizens” will gain the ability to do a LOT of harm to the American people in the future.

Those not completely mind-controlled by FauxNews should think, think about the facts before they make up their minds how they feel about the developments in Wisconsin. Something most people don't.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 9:44 AM

Are they flipping cop cars yet? When they start flipping cop cars and setting fire to "Starbucks" that'll be a great sign. I WANT MADISON TO BURN!!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 9:52 AM

Sig,

Complex economics way predates govt. That's why you have economic models like yams, cowry shells and gold: If the currency itself is inherently limited, then there's no need for anyone to run it. I know you can name a dozen more economic models just like these, and I dare anyone to counterfeit a sea shell for less than its par value. (I don't think even raising sea creatures would do it, it's not cheap.)

While I'm at it, so does farming. Farming is older than civilization by farm, and even fairly advanced farming is older than written language. Crop rotation and permaculture sustainable farming are more advanced forms than are used on most of the planet are both prehistoric, as is irrigation. between 10,000bce and 5,000 bce, the people of dagistan already had an advanced agricultural system us sustainable ag, while not yet unified ancient egyptians had a whole economy based on it, and pre-literate meso-americans already had advanced bio-engineering the created the GMOs that we think are natural.

As for theories that sound good on paper and don't work out in reality? self proclaimed socialists should throw stones

But seriously, my post had nothing to do with Wisconsin. It didn't claim to. It was a direct response to your post. About the rich. I'm not rich, but I am serious: You should think about this. The questions posed in my response were for you to think about. It's more complicated than you think, I was just pointing out some obvious holes.

The rich have absolute power. If they wanted taxes gone, they would be gone tomorrow.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
GOOD NEWS! The worlds biggest media whore Jesse Jackson is there, now Madison will be on fire in no time! You libs wanted it to get ugly, well the "Civil War 2" is about to begin. I'm going to open an ice cold COORS and watch Madison burn

Coors? Really? We are talking about Wisconsin burning...crack a Miller!!!!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
GOOD NEWS! The worlds biggest media whore Jesse Jackson is there, now Madison will be on fire in no time! You libs wanted it to get ugly, well the "Civil War 2" is about to begin. I'm going to open an ice cold COORS and watch Madison burn

Coors? Really? We are talking about Wisconsin burning...crack a Miller!!!!

Fuck what made Milwaukee famous.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 4:57 PM

The local Anarchists and IWW are on site and active, just so you know.
http://www.iww.org/en/node/5346

Of course, no one (yet!) is listening to me so much, so I shall patiently wait for the so-called representatives to once again ignore the will of the people and spit in their face, till eventually their shouted demands give way to silent seething, and then put forth the concept I have been suggesting from the very start here.

Impeachment.

Given that Wisconsin is in it's own way one of the very fonts of labor union rights, in great part to the IWW despite them being historically ignored....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger

This moron couldn't possibly have picked a worse hornets nest to go poking, although I suspect it's deliberate, as a test to see if they can push the first domino over.
All I got to say to it for the moment is...

Hold the line, reinforcements are on the way.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 5:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

The local Anarchists and IWW are on site and active, just so you know.
http://www.iww.org/en/node/5346

Of course, no one (yet!) is listening to me so much, so I shall patiently wait for the so-called representatives to once again ignore the will of the people and spit in their face, till eventually their shouted demands give way to silent seething, and then put forth the concept I have been suggesting from the very start here.

Impeachment.

Given that Wisconsin is in it's own way one of the very fonts of labor union rights, in great part to the IWW despite them being historically ignored....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger

This moron couldn't possibly have picked a worse hornets nest to go poking, although I suspect it's deliberate, as a test to see if they can push the first domino over.
All I got to say to it for the moment is...

Hold the line, reinforcements are on the way.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Your brain works about as good as your leg. They are listening to the will of the people. It is the 14 cowards that fled the state that is derailing the peoples vote....dumb fuck.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 5:35 PM

All government unions should be banned. The idea that government workers need protection from guess who?? THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, is ridiculous.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 6:31 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Along with all those currencies, DT, came GOVERNMENT. Please, read some history!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:08 PM

Get your recall pins here!
http://www.zazzle.com/recall_scott_walker_button-145694529772563848

Recall drive already in progress.
http://scottwalkerwatch.com/?page_id=677

Is it too early to lay in a supply of pitchforks and torches, maybe some tar and feathers ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:22 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
A whozit has no logic. It was not created with one ;)

Oh, the same problems with Egypt? Wisconsin is ruled by a torturer in chief? Oh right, it is

That explains why the teabaggers support him.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 2:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Along with all those currencies, DT, came GOVERNMENT. Please, read some history!

Ah, the insult adds so much strength to the argument I find.

See. Thafs a snark. Please read some history is a primitive fifth grader kind of jab.

Oh, and that was a snark too

Sig, as hopeless as it may be that you will actual see the light [/snark 3! Is that an out?] I try anyway...

Many thousands of years passed. If someone invents the bottle, and thousands of years later Someone unrelated invents Pepsi, then are you going to blame the bottle inventor for diabetes whilst defending Pepsi?

That's pretty much the argument you just made.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 3:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DT, it's your whole-cloth rejection of "gubmint" I find troubling. When people trade using cowrie shells, or beads, or what-have-you, there ALREADY exists the notion of ownership and fiat currency. Also, there exists language to represent those things (including a numbering system that goes beyond one-two-three-many), as well as some sort of bookkeeping, AND long-distance enforcement. These are complex ideas that must exist in order for those economic activities to occur. You have fantastical notions, like our resident gun-promoter who thinks that shooting firearms is some sort of sustainable skill in a society that can't quite get cobalt for high-strength steel, or that we can somehow revert to an agricultural model and but can't figure our how to get nails, cotton cloth, glass, and steel plows !

I'm looking for a SUSTAINABLE PRACTICAL model, not some kind of pie-in-the sky-let's-go-back-to-some-system-that never-existed theory. A model that takes into account that complex economies need a LOT of long-distance trade, and therefore international exchange. I apologize for the snark, but I'm very short of time and I meant exactly what I said: Read some history, it will make the argument more completely than I can.

If you feel that you have a model that takes into account the real, practical necessities of modern life, advanced technology and international trade but avoids all the evils of "gubmint", then by all means please spell it out. In detail. Instead of some drive-by snark of your own about "gubmint". After all, you seem to have all the time in the world to watch games, so why don't you put that time to good use and answer the questions that our "let's go back in time, get rid of government, keep the technology but get rid of international trade" contingent can't ever seem to get around answering?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 3:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
All government unions should be banned.

Oh yeah, because GOD FORBID that people should have freedom of association! You anti-American Nazi, why don't you go back to the Third Reich where you belong, you freedom-hating whore? Go spread your legs for some other tyrant, m'kay?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 4:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, I see Kaneman and its sock puppet haven't answered. WARNING! WARNING! Credibility factor rapidly approaching zero!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 5:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Along with all those currencies, DT, came GOVERNMENT. Please, read some history!

Ah, the insult adds so much strength to the argument I find.

See. Thafs a snark. Please read some history is a primitive fifth grader kind of jab.

Oh, and that was a snark too

Sig, as hopeless as it may be that you will actual see the light [/snark 3! Is that an out?] I try anyway...

Many thousands of years passed. If someone invents the bottle, and thousands of years later Someone unrelated invents Pepsi, then are you going to blame the bottle inventor for diabetes whilst defending Pepsi?

That's pretty much the argument you just made.

You're doing it again. Insulting people while calling for them to NOT insult you.

And you're ASSUMING that Signy *wasn't* snarking at you.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
All government unions should be banned.
Oh yeah, because GOD FORBID that people should have freedom of association! You anti-American Nazi, why don't you go back to the Third Reich where you belong, you freedom-hating whore? Go spread your legs for some other tyrant, m'kay?

Well, what KKKaney really means is that in order to get smaller government, we need larger government to tell us what we can and can't do. Laws banning unions (whether civil unions or labor unions) aren't tyranny in KKKaneyWorld™; laws guaranteeing basic healthcare ARE tyranny.

By the way, Texas is now passing a healthcare "mandate", all while actively suing the federal government for passing a healthcare "mandate" of its own. Ours mandates that any woman seeking a legal medical service MUST first have a sonogram and have it explained in explicit detail what that medical procedure entails. Texas, in other words, is implementing full-scale "death panels" by government mandate.

Oddly, not a single teabagger has stood up to denounce this. Why? Because it fits perfectly with their vision of "small government", of course.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 5:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
All government unions should be banned.
Oh yeah, because GOD FORBID that people should have freedom of association! You anti-American Nazi, why don't you go back to the Third Reich where you belong, you freedom-hating whore? Go spread your legs for some other tyrant, m'kay?

Yeah, okay. Banned may be a bit much. Let em unionize...they do have the right and I would be a hypocrite to not recognize that... Just don't deal with them. Let the state and voters dictate the terms of our civil servants wages and pensions. When the public sector is making 2x what the private sector makes for the same work...we got a problem.....If they don't go for it? Do what New Haven did...fire em.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 5:56 AM

Quote:
DT, it's your whole-cloth rejection of "gubmint" I find troubling.

Why? I'm not about to overthrow the deathtatorship under which you live ;)

Oh, no, fiat came later. Limited resource currency was first. Fiat required someone to declare its value. Early humans were still filled with fiat systems, but there was lots of pre-fiat currency. There still is, Yams are still currency in New Guinea, in spite of, rather than because of the govt's issue of a fiat. When the economy collapsed a few years back, the peasants (headhunters to be politically incorrect) with yams took over the economy. Seems govt. was the only thing keeping the rich rich and the poor poor. Huh, ain't that funny. 'cause it's not like that's ever happened anywhere else ;)

Quote:
long-distance enforcement

Nonsense. yams or whatever are currency by general agreement, not by dic-tater-ship ;)

Quote:
our resident gun-promoter

Which one? Frem? Mike? Wulf? Speaking of which, not only are their many 2a people here, there are a lot of anarchists, in fact, Joss is an anarchist., he says so. The characters in firefly says so. The characters in Buffy say so. Buffy and the gang: "We're anarchists" (season four) So, I think that the idea that a Joss Whedon fan is an anarchist is as scary as that a metallica fan listens to heavy metal.

And while I'm at it. This website is for a gunslinger show. I may disagree with them, but I'll certainly concede that it is a gunslinger show. It's not giving me a lot of room to base my anti-gun attack now is it?

Quote:
I'm looking for a SUSTAINABLE PRACTICAL model

Oh, and here I thought you like socialism [/snark]

Quote:
I apologize for the snark

Thanks, but that was a snark? [/snark]

I think you've been reading some agenda-laiden history. Wasn't it you who posted that Caral was some prehistoric paradise of freedom and sustainability?

Quote:
"gubmint"

your spellcheck is off ;)

Anyway, who said I wanted to get rid of international trade? Not me in many years of posting my free market supply side arguments in favor of international trade ;) I think that you have mistaken me for someone else, like the majority of people here who don't seem to support my position on that. This machine was made in China. So was everything else. If it weren't, I'd never have been able to afford it. Even my mouse was made in China. nice mouse too, trackball, kensington. Pretty sweet.

ETA: Sig, you just Godwin'd Kane. you having sockpuppet envy?

Mike,

You miss something about the nature of snark?
'twas a primitive snark barely worthy of the name.
Oh, and those were snarks.

Also you're also godwin'ing Kane just not as directly. Though this one is fair. Kaneman is much more in line with the KKK than with the Nazis. I think she's been fairly good to jews and israel relative to the rest of the board ;) (probably even relative to me.) though maybe now she'll start leaning from PN

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 6:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
All government unions should be banned.
Oh yeah, because GOD FORBID that people should have freedom of association! You anti-American Nazi, why don't you go back to the Third Reich where you belong, you freedom-hating whore? Go spread your legs for some other tyrant, m'kay?

Well, what KKKaney really means is that in order to get smaller government, we need larger government to tell us what we can and can't do. Laws banning unions (whether civil unions or labor unions) aren't tyranny in KKKaneyWorld™; laws guaranteeing basic healthcare ARE tyranny.

By the way, Texas is now passing a healthcare "mandate", all while actively suing the federal government for passing a healthcare "mandate" of its own. Ours mandates that any woman seeking a legal medical service MUST first have a sonogram and have it explained in explicit detail what that medical procedure entails. Texas, in other words, is implementing full-scale "death panels" by government mandate.

Oddly, not a single teabagger has stood up to denounce this. Why? Because it fits perfectly with their vision of "small government", of course.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

Well, I don't have a problem with states mandating anything. Mass has healthcare. Fine. That is the way it is supposed to work. It makes it easy to change and challenge laws state by state. If you don't like a state law the local voters can decide, if you find yourself in the minority and the matter is that serious to your happiness you can move. Federal mandates are a bit different, see the same law that makes the hippies in Cali and the yuppies in CT wet their pants...is the same law that has 30 other states shitting in theirs. You know...one size does not fit all. I'd rather have 50 choices than 1. But, I have a brain.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 7:39 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am concerned that this situation involves two Kings fighting over who gets to control the serfs.

I now see the Tea Party side with one of the Kings.

I worry for the serfs.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 8:10 AM

Actually, the tea party is a random collection of serfs. There are at least two kings there... contolling them

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 8:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
When the public sector is making 2x what the private sector makes for the same work...we got a problem.

Yeah. IF it did we WOULD have a problem. But somewhere in the earlier threads, I said that it DOESN'T, and it DOESN'T. And from an economist's website, of all places, here are the facts:

SO stop spewing lies all over the inet, you fucking parasite.

Oh, so you can backtrack, here's the website: www.rgemonitor.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 8:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DT... and you still haven't shown me a practical system. Lot's of talk about this and that and a third thing. The funny thing is, I used to think you were a smart person. And you do come up with interesting observations once in a while, but mostly you just seem to have an ax to grind.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 8:58 AM

Due to certain considerations I cannot disuss certain of this mess in detail, but it's pretty obvious I've been doing a long-range take on Robespierre in respect to the situation.

Thing is, Walker has repeatedly threatened to call out the Wisconsin National Guard (whatever they got left not suckin sand in the middle east, that is) to "Restore Order" (aka beat down the workers).

Either the man is completely ignorant of history or he's fucking insane...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_strikes

This provoked the IWW rather quickly, after he'd already provoked both the AFSCME and by proxy the UAW - neither of which I am at all fond of, seeing them in much the same light Anthony does, but in essence superior to the Neo-Fascist-Feudalism of the "Republican" party, since it isn't a specific union they wish to take on, so much as destroy a collective RIGHT - one that, mind you, my ancestors, and likely many of yours, spilled buckets of blood, too damn much of it their own, in order to actually have respected, and codify it...

The ghost of Sid Hatfield glares at thee, from Matewan and Blair Mountain.

Mind you, this is a damned lot of people, and factually it would require only 540,208 signatures over the course of 60 days in order to recall his ass - which makes this damn near inevitable given how things are going.

Of course, since few tyrants are fool enough to short the palace gaurd despite what they do to the peasantry, you can imagine he's exempted the police unions and whatnot from his lash, of COURSE he has, which shows all the more the double standards and class/caste system these assholes wish to enforce, with many another "Republican" Governer looking on with a trickle of drool forming at the corner of their slobbering gullet at the notion of finally becoming in truth the kings they always wished to be.

And thus, the threat of the National Guard, as the cannon is the last argument of kings - but so too, is the guillotene the last argument of peasants.

Of course, this is much EASIER in Wisconsin, thanks to their idiotic notion of personal defense being something to be scorned, ridiculed and outlawed, making them handily defenseless and enhancing the quality of such a threat, by putting the balance of power wholly in favor of those who have both arms and perceived legitimacy (for the moment), against those who have none.

Ergo, a company of militia has been dispatched and deployed, to forestall military aggression against those who are peaceably asserting their rights, because there are those who have NOT forgotten the lessons of history, and know that trying to peacefully assert ones rights is meaningless in the face of "authorized" violence against them - and it is this factor which has caused the Guard to finally balk, because it's all fun and games when it's naive, unarmed college students under the truncheon, but a whole different ballgame entire when there might be some actual risk to the matter instead of a jackboot stomping party, as all bullies are, essentialy our military are cowards.

And I must be off to herd some cats, but in closing I will say this much, should the Guard be deployed, and choose to fire upon unarmed protestors, it will go badly for them.
They've been made bloody well aware of it, too, just so you know.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 9:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 9:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
DT... and you still haven't shown me a practical system. Lot's of talk about this and that and a third thing. The funny thing is, I used to think you were a smart person. And you do come up with interesting observations once in a while, but mostly you just seem to have an ax to grind.

No ax

I posted several times I'm just trying to analyze psychology, I'm not really up for a political debate about what we might replace this system with at the moment, I have lots of ideas, but discussing them right now is a huge time sink.

Frankly, I think people spend far too much time planning what they would build to replace the extant powers, and not enough time getting to the point where any such talk is anything other than daydreaming.

I have work to do... lots of it. Its highly unlikely that you and I would agree on solutions for a new state, and given that neither of us are in any position to do anything about it, it would seem futile ATM.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 11:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Since I'm busy today, I'm adding in drib and drabs.

DT, you confuse a TV show with real life. Firefly is a wonderful show, but even it tends to prove my point: Anarchism as YOU (and Joss) envision it can only exist on the margins and leavings of a larger society.

As I understand it, the inspiration for Joss was the Civil War soldiers who moved west to find a new life. Yes, life was hard, but it was also NOT truly independent. Did the soldiers dig up the iron ore to make their guns, or pick, gin, spin and weave cotton to make their clothes? What did they buy with? Money?

Same thing with Firefly... Mal BUYS a ship. He BUYS his supplies. He can exist ONLY because there is a larger society. It is a society which he rejects, but ALSO a society that he depends on. Because he can move out to the fringe, but he can't stay away forever. That comes up in every show. I'm trying to come up with an anarchist society that is a COMPLETE society, one which allows for full technology AND freedom.

But anyway, moving away from theory, here we are: living under Blue Sun and the Alliance. You can build your little groups here and there, but if the shit REALLY hit the fan and the society fell part for the long term... let's say 5 years... you would be back to living at the level of the early 1800s, on the tools made "back when", and if chaos persisted longer... say, 20 years... and your tools and small engines and cloth and metal parts rusted or broke, and you had no fuel, 90% of us would be dead and the remainder would be living a hard life of unending toil, like most people lived in the 1700s.

But thanks for bringing up the show and your other points, because it make me finally... finally .... put my finger on what I was trying to do, and why I didn't think anarchist groups who wanted to run way from society would work. What I realized is, you can't run away. You can only take over. Breaks the system, and replace it with something better.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 4:36 PM

Meanwhile, as democracy and protests spread throughout the Mid-East, hope is rekindled that maybe the same will spread throughout the Mid-West!

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/egypt-supports-wisconsin-workers

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 6:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Meanwhile, as democracy and protests spread throughout the Mid-East, hope is rekindled that maybe the same will spread throughout the Mid-West!

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/egypt-supports-wisconsin-workers

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

Yeah sure, cause there is nothing with more synergy than a bunch of young unemployed folks protesting an oppressive government.....and....a bunch of old overpaid employed union members trying to oppress a state

man, you are gay.....and hilarious

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 7:40 PM

You know your organization sucks when the freaking ANARCHISTS have a better logistics and supply setup than you do...
*rolling eyes*
Okay, yes, the pizza places are makin a mint and whatnot, but it's not exactly healthy and sustainable food is it now, and what goes in must come out, and few enough have given thought to THAT either...

Thankfully the same brace of churches which supported rescue efforts in New Orleans managed to borrow a catering/kitchen truck from a supportive business (which usually caters to said union members anyway) and then there's phone-tag with the port-a-john folks...

Like. Herding. Cats.

Luckily I am spared trying to run a biz at the same time due to complete whiteout conditions locally, pfffthh.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, February 20, 2011 11:59 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Frem if there is anything I can do... a committee taking donations or anything else... let me know.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, February 21, 2011 12:21 AM