REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Fake democracies, including here (?)

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 00:09
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Monday, July 16, 2012 5:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I recently read an article (which I lost the link to) with an interesting tenet: Since the stated limitation of the USA is not to provide military assistance to any nation which is NOT a democracy*, the goal has been to turn previous tyrannical allies into nominal democracies: nations which hold elections but where all of the important power is still held by the military.

The article used Egypt as a specific example: in the transition between the Mubarak regime and today's elected Muslim Brotherhood leader (Morsi) the military had control of all of the important departments, as well as state security. The military also controls huge economic enterprises. During that transition, the military made sure to place its people in charge of each department (ministry). Now that Morsi is in place, he has no power. But I don't think he cares: The funders of the Muslim Brotherhood themselves are no lovers of democracy, and Morsi will make a peaceful accommodation with his military henchmen.

The same could be said for Tunisia. A vendor at my local farmer's market has family in Tunisia. I asked him how things were going there, and he said "Worse than before". Before, you knew who to pay. Now, everybody wants their cut, AND it's insecure. Corruption is worse than ever.

I could also point to Libya. 55 people just died in a rubber raft in the Mediterranean, trying to flee Libya. WHAT? Isn't that our shining success??? Why would people want to flee???

And Iran. By all accounts, they hold elections there. Nonetheless, the corruption by religious leaders is at an outstanding level, and the government has complete control.


And finally, America. The good old USA, the founder of democracy and champion of the right to vote. I would guess that not five in ten Americans actually think that our ELECTED government is here to serve us.

I think that the mere right to vote does not guarantee a representative government.

What more needs to be done?

* Saudi Arabia being a big exception?

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Monday, July 16, 2012 5:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sigh...sadly, yeah, I realized that a long time ago. I don't know what other form of government, if any, would work better, but I sure wish someone would find one!

It seems to me that ANY form of government ends up with a few elite running things, no matter how it starts out...so what is the option, if any?



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Monday, July 16, 2012 5:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Maybe not another form, but possibly a tweak? The idea that people could vote for their government was effing brilliant, but not as bullet-proof as the FFs envisioned.

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Monday, July 16, 2012 6:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


PUTTING THE EGYPT STORY IN CONTEXT:

Quote:

Earlier on Sunday, Clinton met Egypt's top general, Field Marshal Hussein Tantawi, to discuss Egypt's turbulent democratic transition as the military wrestles for influence with the new president.

The meeting came a day after she met Mursi, whose powers were clipped by the military days before he took office.

Mursi fired back by reinstating the Islamist-dominated parliament that the army leadership had disbanded after a court declared it void, deepening the stand-off before the new leader even had time to form a government.

In their hour-long meeting, Clinton and Tantawi discussed Egypt's political transition, the military's "ongoing dialogue with President Mursi," and the country's economic troubles, a U.S. official travelling with Clinton said in an email brief.

"Tantawi stressed that this is what Egyptians need most now - help getting the economy back on track," the official said.


Because now that Egypt is a nominal democracy, the USA can go full steam ahead to support the military's requests for aid.

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Monday, July 16, 2012 6:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

"I want to be clear that the United States is not in the business, in Egypt, of choosing winners and losers, even if we could, which, of course, we cannot," Clinton said at the ceremony to reopen the consulate, which was closed in 1993 because of budget constraints.


Hello,

I found this statement amusing. Especially when followed by:

Quote:

"I have come to Alexandria to reaffirm the strong support of the United States for the Egyptian people and for their democratic future."


I think we may have a credibility problem, as we often pick winners and even throw our clandestine services behind them. If we wanted to seem like we have a noninterference policy, we shouldn't be over there at all.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, July 16, 2012 6:59 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Hypocrisy is not the point, anymore than a stage play is somehow less than genuine. Duh.

Democracy, like all other form of entertainment, is an elaborate stage play with actors and scripts, designed to distract us from the glaring fact that 99% of the populace are all slaves, if not livestock.

It is designed to prevent true reform.

-----
So many gods, so many creeds,
So many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind
is all the sad world needs.
- Ella Wheeler Wilcox, poet (1850-1919)

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Monday, July 16, 2012 7:17 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

What alternative?

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, July 16, 2012 11:51 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
What alternative?

True reform. Abolition of slavery. No more domesticated humans.

This topic probably can use its own thread.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2012 12:09 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The same could be said for Tunisia. A vendor at my local farmer's market has family in Tunisia. I asked him how things were going there, and he said "Worse than before". Before, you knew who to pay. Now, everybody wants their cut, AND it's insecure. Corruption is worse than ever.



So you see the conundrum, Neo...........?


Seriously, I hope you sold that farmer's market stock that's up 20%.....

It's like investing in gold and silver.

Sure, do I wish I kept money in both of those the last 4 years and regretted it, yes...... But even though gold has reached record highs, silver has barely eclipsed it's own record highs.

Obama surprised me. He didn't, at all, fix the economy. I figured by now I'd be picking up REAL silver at 3 bucks an ounce on his watch.

Not my bad really....

But, at the same time, there is ZERO reason ANYONE (not the president) could tell me that Silver couldn't dip that low again....

Imagine an America where they finaly unveil a nearly limitless renewable technology like Cold Fusion, and a way to make it virtually harmless....


In that world, Gold and Silver would only be "valuable" because other people didn't have it and would plummet to about 20 and 10 bucks an ounce respectively.




Whatever....


We have the "tech"....

They're just "sitting" on it....

For all we know, we already have the ability to turn iron into Gold but that would kill the ecnomy...

(It's already what they do to smokers.... they tell "everyone else" that it's for the public good, knowing full well, that if they raised the prices so high that every smoker quit overnight it would be the housing crash of 2008 all over again, but only worse because they wouldn't have a popular legal drug to pin their mistakes on....



Nobody would give two shits about gold if everyone's toilets were made of solid gold.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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