REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A FEW are fighting back against Norquist's anti-tax pledge

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, November 26, 2012 07:18
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Friday, November 23, 2012 5:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

A top Republican U.S. senator brushed off the anti-tax pledge pushed by activist Grover Norquist and embraced widely for years by GOP lawmakers.

"I care more about my country than I do about a 20-year-old pledge," Sen. Saxby Chambliss told Georgia television station WMAZ, a CNN affiliate, on Wednesday. "If we do it his way, then we'll continue in debt and I just have a disagreement with him about that."Much more at http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/22/chambliss-fires-off-on
-norquists-anti-tax-pledge/?hpt=hp_t2


I find this a somewhat hopefull development, and have heard that others are doing the same. Rob Norquist of his power, and maybe they can make SOME kind of heaway in a compromise which accepts that both cuts AND revenue are the only way to bring down the debt.

I see he's not totally alone:
Quote:

Many GOP candidates who ran for office also signed the promise, but earlier this year, a small number of freshman lawmakers rejected the idea that they were bound to the document.

Good. But I fear Norquist's power is still too strong for many to buck the tide:
Quote:

Asked if Chambliss is concerned Norquist may use his resources to combat a re-election bid, the senator said, "In all likelihood, yes."

"But I don't worry about that because I care too much about my country," he said. "I care a lot more about it than I do Grover Norquist."

The two-term senator from Georgia added he's "willing to do the right thing and let the political consequences take care of themselves."


We need more like him. That someone who is not even IN the government can weild such power and cause such a stalemate in our government sickens me.

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Friday, November 23, 2012 5:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



we need none like him. Higher taxes aren't the answer. More revenue and less spending are what we need, not to give MORE of our $ to the govt.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 23, 2012 6:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

we need none like him.

I fully agree, when it comes to Norquist.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, November 23, 2012 6:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

we need none like him.

I fully agree, when it comes to Norquist.



You're funny. You HAD to know I was talking about Chambliss, and his position on this issue. I mean, c'mon... you weren't for a second serious to think that I meant Norquist, were you ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 23, 2012 11:03 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

More revenue and less spending are what we need, not to give MORE of our $ to the govt.

You're aware you're contradicting yourself there?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, November 23, 2012 11:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

More revenue and less spending are what we need, not to give MORE of our $ to the govt.

You're aware you're contradicting yourself there?

It's not personal. It's just war.



No, I'm not. But thanks for falling for that crassic trap.

More people working, paying INTO the system, and not taking out of it, results in increased revenue. Raising more revenue doesn't necessarily mean raising taxes. Keep the taxes where they are, and cloing some more loop holes, would also result in more revenue.

I wonder if Niki is aware that this is the SAME Saxby Chambliss who defeated 'nam Vet Max Cleland, amid the cries from the Left that Saxby was 'mean and lied ' in his attack ads during the campaign.

Need more like him, huh Niki ? Really ?




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 23, 2012 12:25 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I saw an interview with this guy around election time, I think it was on a documemtary about the Republicans. I found him politically extreme and economically naive, but also very, very powerful. Basically he appeared a bit of a nasty piece of work.

The doco also demonstrated how old style Republicans who had more moderate views have been appallingly treated within their own party. That made sense to me.

Pledges are a strange concept. Always seem to be about denial. I pledge to never drink alcohol. Not have sex before marriage. And we all know how they end up.

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Friday, November 23, 2012 12:47 PM

JONGSSTRAW


The best idea I've heard for increasing revenue to the IRS lately is the one about capping tax deductions. Just a simple limit on total deductions at 25k or 50k wouldn't hurt 99% of us, but it would effectively do away with lavish and exotic business and personal type deductions such as travel, trucks, autos, medical, charity, etc.

Charity should come from the heart, not the IRS. And the means of conducting business shouldn't be just written off and paid for by the Govt. The Govt. shouldn't have to subsidize company vehicles, gasoline, business travel, hotels, and fancy restaurant dinners. Add in some oil industry subsidy reductions, and voila, the IRS is collecting beaucoup dollars. No one's tax rate will have changed, and all the deductions we peons take are still intact.



ps...Norquist is a big fat politically suicidal douche. The so-called pledges to him are chillingly repulsive to me, and the whole thing smells like political fascism. We need more Tea Party candidates like we need more boils and tumors on our face. I wonder how many Angles, O'Donnells, Akins, Mourdocks, et al are ready to sprout out of the insane asylum cabbage patch even as I type this.








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Friday, November 23, 2012 12:58 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Jongs, I'm asking because I 'think' I heard this, though I can't recall right now where, but aren't many Lefties ticked off at the idea of caps on charitable giving ?

Quote:

No one's tax rate will have changed, and all the deductions we peons take are still intact.


But as for the over all idea, you do get my point. Glad someone does.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 23, 2012 1:14 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Subsidizing charitable deductions is as offensive to me as subsidizing a corporation's new mahogany conference room table and executive leather chairs. Rich people and celebrities will always donate to charity because when you're a multi-millionnaire you always have intense guilt of some sort, and charity makes you feel good. Plus you get to show off to all your other rich friends what a great and caring person you are. As for business, when I did a lot of business travel for a large corporation I had to turn in receipts for everything...airfare, hotels, meals with clients, car rentals, etc etc. so that it could all be claimed for tax write-offs. Stuff like that needs to go away, so middle-class folks don't have to pay more taxes.








"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."

Benjamin Franklin

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Friday, November 23, 2012 1:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



There's a Hollywood entertainer who was really ticked off at Obama for his attack on the wealthy, as well as his plans on cutting down on the charitable donations cap.

Drawing a blank now, but I think it was a female, maybe a comedian or such?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 23, 2012 1:24 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Jon Lovitz fumed and railed against Obama over "not paying his fair share." He got a lot of shit about it from the rest of Hollywood. And the "charity" issue really exposes the rich phonies of the Left and Right if they won't give money anymore because it isn't tax deductable.








"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."

Benjamin Franklin

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Friday, November 23, 2012 1:53 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The best idea I've heard for increasing revenue to the IRS lately is the one about capping tax deductions. Just a simple limit on total deductions at 25k or 50k wouldn't hurt 99% of us, but it would effectively do away with lavish and exotic business and personal type deductions such as travel, trucks, autos, medical, charity, etc.

Charity should come from the heart, not the IRS. And the means of conducting business shouldn't be just written off and paid for by the Govt. The Govt. shouldn't have to subsidize company vehicles, gasoline, business travel, hotels, and fancy restaurant dinners. Add in some oil industry subsidy reductions, and voila, the IRS is collecting beaucoup dollars. No one's tax rate will have changed, and all the deductions we peons take are still intact.



ps...Norquist is a big fat politically suicidal douche. The so-called pledges to him are chillingly repulsive to me, and the whole thing smells like political fascism. We need more Tea Party candidates like we need more boils and tumors on our face. I wonder how many Angles, O'Donnells, Akins, Mourdocks, et al are ready to sprout out of the insane asylum cabbage patch even as I type this.





Yep that's how I see Norquist. And I agree about charity, that whole thing stinks, those big gala dinners, and its all written off. It's not about doing good, its about minimising your taxable income and showing off.

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Friday, November 23, 2012 1:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Nope, not Jon Lovitz. This was post election, that I heard them rant. Talking about how much $ they've earned, and hard work they've put into their career.

It'll come to me.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 23, 2012 2:12 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

More revenue and less spending are what we need, not to give MORE of our $ to the govt.

You're aware you're contradicting yourself there?

It's not personal. It's just war.



No, I'm not. But thanks for falling for that crassic trap.

More people working, paying INTO the system, and not taking out of it, results in increased revenue. Raising more revenue doesn't necessarily mean raising taxes. Keep the taxes where they are, and cloing some more loop holes, would also result in more revenue.


Oh you were setting a trap, how cute

I just take issue with your wording then. 'our $$ to the govt' IS revenue. So you were calling for more revenue, but not more revenue. Try not to be clearer with your wording, because if you're trying to trap people you shouldn't do it by being ambiguous.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, November 23, 2012 3:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I explained myself well enough, for the thinking individual.

If you're still having trouble w/ this issue, then so be it.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 23, 2012 3:47 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quite simply, what you should have said was:

"More revenue and less spending are what we need, not higher tax rates."

See? Unambiguous.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


A suggestion I heard which makes sense to me is to remove the cap on SSI taxes. As it stands, the rich only have to pay so much INTO SSI, but there is no cap on what they take OUT of it when they retire. Currently, their cap is $110,000 in earnings--after that they pay NO Social Security taxes. FICA is the most regressive tax in our system. It favors those who earn more than the FICA cap, and it punishes those at or below the cap in terms of earnings. Doing so would fund SSI for a long time to come--if we could keep the government from using it as their own private piggy bank--then we could deal with other stuff. It would be a start, at least, toward fairness.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, November 26, 2012 7:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Warren Buffet mocks Norquist's reasoning, and I agree with him:
Quote:

Warren Buffett, the second-richest man in the U.S., pressed his call for more taxes on the wealthy by mocking the idea that higher rates discourage investment.

Legislators should increase taxes on those earning more than $500,000, including minimum rates of at least 30 percent on all income above $1 million, Buffett said in an opinion piece in the New York Times today.

U.S. lawmakers returning this week from the Thanksgiving recess are seeking a budget deal to avoid a so-called fiscal cliff with more than $600 billion in tax hikes and spending cuts set to begin in January. Republicans including Mitt Romney, the defeated presidential candidate, and Grover Norquist, who encourages lawmakers to sign a pledge shunning tax increases, have said lower rates can boost the U.S. economy.

“Let’s forget about the rich and ultrarich going on strike and stuffing their ample funds under their mattresses if -- gasp -- capital gains rates and ordinary income rates are increased,” Buffett wrote. “Only in Grover Norquist’s imagination does such a response exist.”

Buffett, worth $46.5 billion according to data compiled by Bloomberg, is using his clout to urge Congress and Obama to include measures that raise revenue as part of a deal to resolve the fiscal cliff, which may push the U.S. economy back into recession.

“We need to get rid of arrangements like ‘carried interest’ that enable income from labor to be magically converted into capital gains,” Buffett, chairman of Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRK/A), wrote. “And it’s sickening that a Cayman Islands mail drop can be central to tax maneuvering by wealthy individuals and corporations.”

Romney’s returns show investments in funds located around the world, including Ireland, the Cayman Islands and Bermuda. The former governor of Massachusetts has said it is fair for him to pay a lower tax rate than a worker making the median annual income of about $50,000.

“It’s the right way to encourage economic growth, to get people to invest, to start businesses, to put people to work,” Romney said in an interview with “60 Minutes” on CBS, broadcast on Sept. 23. Romney, who paid a 14.1 percent tax rate on $13.7 million in income last year, makes most of his income from investing a fortune estimated at $250 million.

Buffett has said his tax rate is the lowest among the about 20 employees at Berkshire’s headquarters in Omaha, Nebraska. Capital gains from most assets held for longer than a year are taxed at a top rate of 15 percent, while wage income is taxed at a top rate of 35 percent. The difference between those two accounts for Buffett’s lower rate.

Buffett managed funds for investors from 1956 to 1969 through partnerships. Taxes never led any of his clients to forgo an investment during that period, he wrote today, even though the capital gains rate was as high as 27.5 percent and the top marginal rate was at least 70 percent.

“Under those burdensome rates, moreover, both employment and the gross domestic product increased at a rapid clip,” Buffett wrote. “The middle class and the rich alike gained ground.” http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-26/buffett-mocks-norquist-idea-o
n-taxes-thwarting-investment.html


Given history and the facts have shown again and again that higher tax rates on the wealthy haven't stymied the economy, and that in fact the economy has done GREAT under higher tax rates, I've long believed that cry is bullshit...and apparently so does Buffet.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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