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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Twitter, Facebook, demonstrations.... all about as meaningful as spitting in the wind.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Wish

Some cultures have people who live with meaning. The fact that this culture doesn't is a changeable thing.

Signy

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Originally posted by Wishimay:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Twitter, Facebook, demonstrations.... all about as meaningful as spitting in the wind.

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See, when you finally accept that mankind- whether or not we make it off this rock- will NOT survive the eventual end of the universe, you realize NOTHING really matters anyway. "Good" and "Evil" are simply descriptors of a moment in time that soon passes and is forgotton. Accept and become a force for true neutrality, neither good nor evil, but simply allowing whatever forces that govern the laws of nature to have their way with you because those laws are far more intelligent than any person alive or dead in the future, present, or past can EVER seek to be.

OR you can live a life of frustration when people can't manage the way you want, behave in a way that makes sense, or care about things they probably should.

Up to you.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hmmm... well, I think WISH'S advice is poor in this instance. The problem is that our opinion- yours, mine, and the guy next door - account for less than nothing, but SOME peoples' opinion (an exceedingly tiny minority) seem to determine most of what happens within human society.

Even though the human species will never survive the death of the universe (if such a thing is indeed in the future) we (most of us) don't need to bow our collective heads to the whims of a few, either, because there is nothing in "the laws of nature" that make our societal situation inevitable. It only occurs because we allow it so.

So I'm distinguishing between what happens "in nature" and what happens "in society", because our society is completely "un-natural" anyway .... we don't accept the inevitability of disease, discomfort, starvation, and even death; the whole collective human effort has been towards more reward and more certainty with less work and less anxiety.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Or one can understand the basis of the current reality and attempt to improve on the future.

Understanding doesn't mean you assume inevitability - it means you grasp the processes enough to manipulate them.

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Or one can understand the basis of the current reality and attempt to improve on the future. Understanding doesn't mean you assume inevitability - it means you grasp the processes enough to manipulate them.-KIKI

Again, nice thoughts but what does that have to do with the advice? Understanding the basis of the current reality is no different than an opinion. How is your understanding of the basis of the current reality better than mine or anyone else's? _DEVERSE

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No one suggested that one should not attempt to improve the future. But, if no one is interested in your opinion on how to improve the future, then what? -DEVERSE

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As for having sufficient grasp of the process that one can manipulate others or the process, I think that was part of the point made earlier regarding some/certain people having too much influence on society. Obviously, they have a solid grasp of the process and are successful in manipulating others. Just because they are successful doesn't mean they are right.-DEVERSE

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Of course part of the basis of the advice was to stop judging things as right/wrong or good/evil and understand that things will turn out as they do regardless of what you think or do.-DEVERSE

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Or one can understand the basis of the current reality and attempt to improve on the future. Understanding doesn't mean you assume inevitability - it means you grasp the processes enough to manipulate them.-KIKI

Again, nice thoughts but what does that have to do with the advice? Understanding the basis of the current reality is no different than an opinion. How is your understanding of the basis of the current reality better than mine or anyone else's? _DEVERSE

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Ummm... there's the difference between science and opinion. Some might have an opinion that holy smoke and clean thoughts will cure cancer, but I prefer to try something with a better history of success.

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No one suggested that one should not attempt to improve the future. But, if no one is interested in your opinion on how to improve the future, then what? -DEVERSE

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Then, if you're right and "they're" wrong, they (and you) will suffer the consequences. "Opinions" drive actions and actions drive consequences. "Opinions" are not consequence-free, so (presumably) one should make a point of bending them towards reality.

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As for having sufficient grasp of the process that one can manipulate others or the process, I think that was part of the point made earlier regarding some/certain people having too much influence on society. Obviously, they have a solid grasp of the process and are successful in manipulating others. Just because they are successful doesn't mean they are right.-DEVERSE

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Then those others - if they're interested in bettering their future- should look to their understanding of the world and improve it. Or not. And suffer the consequences.

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Of course part of the basis of the advice was to stop judging things as right/wrong or good/evil and understand that things will turn out as they do regardless of what you think or do.-DEVERSE

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There's a large "lie down and die" element to that thinking. If the rape is inevitable, enjoy it? Is that your advice?

As a sociopathic individual, one CAN manipulate one's fellow humans and the future. And if the rest of humanity is content with being manipulated by sociopaths, then the attempt to broadly educate people to their potential and power is a wasted effort. Hubby is convinced that most people are no more intelligent than termites, or the patients in BF Skinner's mental institution experiment. If a stick comes and stirs the nest, the termites busy themselves fixing the nest and never look at the hand wielding the stick. If the table is set with flowers and a cloth and eating there is your "reward" for being "nice", nobody ever looks at who set the table and made the rules.

Is he right?



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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MAGONS, I agree.

Our opinion DOES make a difference. Unless certain ideas, laws and policies have a very broad level of fundamental agreement ... to the point of being memes... they will never stand.

What I was reacting to was the "instant gratification" view of change. I know so many young people who think that if they can ONLY get something out on Twitter and if goes "viral" then they've accomplished something significant. But really they're just being distracted with shiny baubles... about as meaningful as those viral cat videos, and not viewed anywhere near as often!

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Hmmm ... would you feel that way if someone raped you? Raped your child? Killed your child? How accepting and neutral would you be? Because I seem to recall some very graphic things you said you'd do.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Surely there is a limit to what you would accept in the opinions of others, or is everything okay with you? That would make you a very cruisy person, but clearly not someone who is interested in the plight of others.

For example, are you okay with someone believing holy smoke cures cancer if that is the only treatment they will allow their child with cancer to have?

Are you okay if someone lobbies for the re-introduction of slavery? Would you sit back and be all magnanamous about that?

While I am all for tolerance regarding diversity of beliefs, there are limits to what I will tolerate. Especially if those people who hold beliefs are lobbying and influencing changes in laws to support their beliefs. So that's the nature of public debate and that is a good thing.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I suggest you stop taking these discussions so damn personally, because this is not about accusing YOU of anything, but trying to point out the flaws in your argument.

eg If you say you don't judge others opinions, is there a limit to that? Does that mean that you would not judge someone who supports slavery."

This statement did not say. "Deverse, you are a slavery loving bastard." (Although it does sound like you find some merit in it.) It's trying to understand, or perhaps pick away at the logic of your argument.

So, is there a limit to the opinions of others that you would tolerate? You didn't answer my question about whether you would be tolerant of parents letting their kid die due to their beliefs.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
DEVERSE-

For somebody who advocates accepting that others might have contrary opinions, you sure got all tetchy about MAGON'S!

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Originally posted by DEVERSE:

Again, a judgement. Exactly how did I take something you said personally? Because I responded to your insult to me by stating that I do care about the plight of others and have most of my life?
Again, you should really stop judging people on forums because you are really, really bad at it.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Magons

I would be really interested to see it put to the test. To date, most people have been propagandized enough that they accept the meager options they're given. As proof of the concept that indeed an entire population can be bent to accept the unthinkable by the powerful few, even mass death, I point to the Aztecs, Inca, and Maya.

But what if a significant portion of the population were to wake up? What if they started voting for THEIR interests rather than the interests of the powerful - consistently, meaningfully and effectively? What if the vote really did threaten TPTB? What would happen? How sturdy is our democratic process?

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Not an opinion I would agree with, and as with most opinions entirely irrelevant.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Okay here is what I said

"Surely there is a limit to what you would accept in the opinions of others, or is everything okay with you? That would make you a very cruisy person, but clearly not someone who is interested in the plight of others. "

I'm sorry you took this personally. I did not mean to imply that YOU. Mr Deverse does not care about the plight of others. I was seeking clarity around whether all opnions are equally to be tolerated. In my view, there are some opinions which I cannot tolerate. For example, I cannot tolerate views that accept slavery, child prostitution, torture to name a few. I believe that the kind of person (collective 'you') that tolerates all opinions of others must be impervious to the suffering of others. Eg If you tolerate the view that child prostitution is an acceptable view, you would be willing to tolerate the suffering of children who are prostituted. Again for clarity sake and because you seem quite sensitive, I mean collective 'you'. I feel a bit like the Queen if I use the term 'one'.

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As I have said, people are free to have any opinion they want and to follow it, there are laws that say they have that right and freedom. If they want to believe cancer can be cured by holy smoke and no one can change their opinion then what is it you suggest be done?

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The danjer uv this iz that we hav stedily increasing power available to individualz

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I was mostly saying to ignore the concepts of good and evil and do what you feel you must. Sometimes that means kneecapping people, sometimes it means giving a gift card for groceries when the neighbor is out of work. I wouldn't think myself good or evil, but I do try to remain neutral in most things and can't help but things a lotta things would work better if everyone did more of that, but I don't care if they do or don't because it's on them.

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I wuz mainly thinking uv destructiv power. An individual can decide he wants to wipe out an entire city. It can possibly be dun now.

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You probably haven’t heard of Mark Paffrath, the 28-year-old Navy veteran, and former employee of the Drury hotel chain, who was fired from his job and called a “terrorist” for taking pictures of Department of Homeland Security (DHS) vehicles and posting them to his personal Facebook page.

The story of his recent job termination is further proof of fascism’s relentless bull market within these United States. What happened to Mr. Paffrath could easily happen to any of us, and it’s imperative that we support him and reject the type of backwards fear-mongering being perpetrated by his control-freak employer.

Just two weeks ago, we saw a 90-year-old vet threatened with jail for feeding homeless people in Florida. Now this.

TechDirt reports that:

Mark says that on Thursday after work he snapped 2 photographs and a short video of several dozen Homeland Security vehicles in the parking garage. He then uploaded them to his Facebook page. In his post he writes “why are all the cop cars here…I wonder if it has anything to do with Ferguson”, he also included the hashtags #Ferguson #NoJusticeNoPeace.

On Friday, shortly after arriving to work at the Drury Plaza Hotel, Mark stated that he was called to the office of Jeff Baker, the General Manager. Upon arriving Mr. Baker advised Mark that he needed to remove the photos and video from Facebook. Mark immediately complied and removed the post. Mark then continued and finished his shift.

That should be the end of it, but of course it’s not…

Saturday, Mark stated after being at work no more than 30 minutes, he was again called to the General Manager’s office. Waiting for him was Jim Bohnert, Director of Security for Drury Hotels Company, LLC. Mark told ASN that Mr. Bohnert advised him that his Facebook posts almost cost the company a $150,000 contract with the Department of Homeland Security and because of this he was being terminated.

Jim Bohnert — formerly of the Secret Service and the St. Louis Police Department — had more to say on the matter. He called the former military member a “terrorist” and told him he had “dishonorably served his country” by posting pictures of vehicles parked in a garage where any guest or employee of the hotel could have seen them. In fact, any member of the public could have seen them simply by entering the garage, which is not secured. Argus Streaming News writers were able to see “over 100? DHS vehicles in the garage while driving through it on their way to speak to the hotel’s manager.

Bohnert also threatened Paffrath with arrest if the photos were reposted (presumably by someone with more power than Director of Security for Drury Hotels, Bohnert’s current position).

Specifically, this is what Bohnert supposedly said:

Mark stated that Mr. Bohnert ended the conversation with “if you repost the photos and video you will have the federal government knocking on your door and you will be incarcerated”.

We must all support Mr. Paffrath, and let Drury Hotels know that it is their behavior that is unacceptable, not Mark Paffrath’s. It’s perfectly representative of the addled, insane society we live in that the hotel’s security director had the nerve to call a U.S. veteran a “terrorist” for posting pictures to Facebook. I think we all know who’s actually behaving like a terrorist in this case. The time for getting outraged has long since passed.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hmmm... I disagree here. As individuals, we are more and more powerless. Once upon a time, an individual could know enough, and do enough, to sustain themselves independently for a time ... a month, a year. They knew how to hunt, how to fletch an arrow or point an arrow and skin a deer, dig for roots or find eggs and shellfish, build a nest or climb a tree. Obviously, you can't sustain the human species individually, but an individual could survive, for a while. As technology advanced and other energy sources were tapped, humans could survive in small groups... it was possible to plow and grind grain using animals, to store and direct water, to spin and weave, to dry food and chop trees for fuel ... maybe a hundred individuals, dividing their labor, could survive.

Today, the individual cannot survive on their own. They can't even make their opinion known without the collective efforts of hundreds of thousands of others .... those who drill oil or gas, run power stations, dig ore and smelt metal for the power-generating turbines and the wires, process lithium ores, make plastic, assemble products, program servers... each one of those nodes represents a dependency and a choke-point on your individual power.

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See, when you finally accept that mankind- whether or not we make it off this rock- will NOT survive the eventual end of the universe, you realize NOTHING really matters anyway. "Good" and "Evil" are simply descriptors of a moment in time that soon passes and is forgotton. Accept and become a force for true neutrality, neither good nor evil, but simply allowing whatever forces that govern the laws of nature to have their way with you because those laws are far more intelligent than any person alive or dead in the future, present, or past can EVER seek to be.

OR you can live a life of frustration when people can't manage the way you want, behave in a way that makes sense, or care about things they probably should.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, speaking of thoughtcrimes....

Thought Crime? Navy Vet Fired For Posting Images Of DHS Vehicles On Facebook

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You probably haven’t heard of Mark Paffrath, the 28-year-old Navy veteran, and former employee of the Drury hotel chain, who was fired from his job and called a “terrorist” for taking pictures of Department of Homeland Security (DHS) vehicles and posting them to his personal Facebook page.

The story of his recent job termination is further proof of fascism’s relentless bull market within these United States. What happened to Mr. Paffrath could easily happen to any of us, and it’s imperative that we support him and reject the type of backwards fear-mongering being perpetrated by his control-freak employer.

Just two weeks ago, we saw a 90-year-old vet threatened with jail for feeding homeless people in Florida. Now this.

TechDirt reports that:

Mark says that on Thursday after work he snapped 2 photographs and a short video of several dozen Homeland Security vehicles in the parking garage. He then uploaded them to his Facebook page. In his post he writes “why are all the cop cars here…I wonder if it has anything to do with Ferguson”, he also included the hashtags #Ferguson #NoJusticeNoPeace.

On Friday, shortly after arriving to work at the Drury Plaza Hotel, Mark stated that he was called to the office of Jeff Baker, the General Manager. Upon arriving Mr. Baker advised Mark that he needed to remove the photos and video from Facebook. Mark immediately complied and removed the post. Mark then continued and finished his shift.

That should be the end of it, but of course it’s not…

Saturday, Mark stated after being at work no more than 30 minutes, he was again called to the General Manager’s office. Waiting for him was Jim Bohnert, Director of Security for Drury Hotels Company, LLC. Mark told ASN that Mr. Bohnert advised him that his Facebook posts almost cost the company a $150,000 contract with the Department of Homeland Security and because of this he was being terminated.

Jim Bohnert — formerly of the Secret Service and the St. Louis Police Department — had more to say on the matter. He called the former military member a “terrorist” and told him he had “dishonorably served his country” by posting pictures of vehicles parked in a garage where any guest or employee of the hotel could have seen them. In fact, any member of the public could have seen them simply by entering the garage, which is not secured. Argus Streaming News writers were able to see “over 100? DHS vehicles in the garage while driving through it on their way to speak to the hotel’s manager.

Bohnert also threatened Paffrath with arrest if the photos were reposted (presumably by someone with more power than Director of Security for Drury Hotels, Bohnert’s current position).

Specifically, this is what Bohnert supposedly said:

Mark stated that Mr. Bohnert ended the conversation with “if you repost the photos and video you will have the federal government knocking on your door and you will be incarcerated”.

We must all support Mr. Paffrath, and let Drury Hotels know that it is their behavior that is unacceptable, not Mark Paffrath’s. It’s perfectly representative of the addled, insane society we live in that the hotel’s security director had the nerve to call a U.S. veteran a “terrorist” for posting pictures to Facebook. I think we all know who’s actually behaving like a terrorist in this case. The time for getting outraged has long since passed.

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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-28/thought-crime-navy-vet-fired-
posting-images-dhs-vehicles-facebook

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns. But by god, DHS is trying!

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