Home Defense Opinions by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Home Defense Opinions

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Thursday, February 22, 2007 04:26
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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 5:02 AM

I don't have time to read all the replies, so apologies if this has already been said. For home defense, there are two keys: size and ammo capacity. Coach guns tend to be small, so you're good there, but if there are more than two targets, your coach gun is going to become a very expensive club.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 7:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Common myth perpetuated by anti-gun folk.
Rate of occurance is statistically insignificant.

I am not anti-gun folk, but when you start talking about a single life as statistically insignificant - you do us a disservice....

You mighta skipped the point there. All lives are significant. What he said (or at least meant to say) is that the percentage of guns taken and used against their owners versus the percentage of guns used successfully by owners to deter crime is statistically small.

In other words, having one handy did more good than harm.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:41 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

You mighta skipped the point there. All lives are significant. What he said (or at least meant to say) is that the percentage of guns taken and used against their owners versus the percentage of guns used successfully by owners to deter crime is statistically small.

In other words, having one handy did more good than harm.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

Errr actually no. I got into this argument with a "gun nut" about 5 years ago and researched it about as well as I could. At that time only one New England state (Rhode Island??) kept records on the causes of gun deaths. From what I remember the number of folks that died by a legaly held weapon, either having it turned on themselves, accidents or 3rd party accidents (like a kid accidentaly shooting another kid)was significantly larger than self defence shootings of perps.

The gun nut pointed out that a lot of the "accidents" reported are in fact suicides with the gun just being the weapon of choice because it was available.

Still, even he had to admit that the number of successfull self defence shootings per year is far smaller than the number of gun related accidental deaths from legal weapons. That's why the NRA is so keen to use the word "deter" when discussing self defence use for firearms, actual usage figures would be too discouraging.

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Not gonna debate it.
It's just a tool.

I'm sure as many folk hit their thumb with a hammer as they do nails.
Is that the hammers fault, or the operators ?

If you're going to pack a piece, a certain responsibility to self-educate is there, and the extra cost of the training is miniscule compared to it's benefit.

Obey the four rules, and exercise good sense, and that problem goes away.

Just remember that you are going to open a can of worms with a lotta folk for choosing self-defense, because it leads to the realization that you can be self-reliant, which leads one eventually down the "path to madness" of realizing governments, and police especially, are just useless parasites on your livelyhood, offering no real benefit, and a great deal of miseries.

Anyhows, it's just a tool.
"Just an object, it doesn't mean what you think." - River.

Two reccommended sites.

http://www.a-human-right.com/
Oleg's a great guy personally, as well, and right handy with a camera.

http://www.corneredcat.com/
Kathy's also a sweetheart.

I tend to avoid "gun nuts" because they're, well.... nuts - but I can vouch for either of the above folk personally as decent respectable folk, and the advice they offer is quite sound.

My personal is the same as it ever was, a puny little Colt chambered in the unlikely and unloved caliber of .380Auto, and it's been a friend in many a tight place, and can put entire mags into a tea saucer at 35-50m, which is more accuracy that I will ever need.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 12:04 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

There are two or more sides on this issue, and we can create a new thread to discuss it.

I hope this one will stay friendly with observations and advice on the topic. It has so far.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:34 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
It's just a tool.

It is indeed, but when we say tool it doesn't half provoke the idea that it's just a hammer, which is a bit misleading. A hammer can kill someone, but it's not designed too, it's designed for a wholly altruistic purpose, where as a gun has only one purpose, design and practical use and that is too kill.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:57 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
It's just a tool.
It is indeed, but when we say tool it doesn't half provoke the idea that it's just a hammer, which is a bit misleading. A hammer can kill someone, but it's not designed too, it's designed for a wholly altruistic purpose

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer

Quote:
where as a gun has only one purpose, design and practical use and that is too kill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plinking

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:01 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer

I guess we can equate a nailgun as the samething as an assualt rifle because it has 'gun' in the title. Please.

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plinking

You're attempting to disprove my point that guns are a weapon by pointing to their use as practice to make the wielder a more effective marksman? Please.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:06 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plinking
You're attempting to disprove my point that guns are a weapon by pointing to their use as practice to make the wielder a more effective marksman? Please.

I was attempting to disprove your assertion that the ONLY use for guns was killing. Plinking is (usually) done for fun with the side effect of improving marksmanship.

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:08 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
I was attempting to disprove your assertion that the ONLY use for guns was killing. Plinking is (usually) done for fun with the side effect of improving marksmanship.

Hunting is usually done for fun with the side effect of killing. Guns are a tool designed for killing, their ownly practicable uses are towards that end or the training towards that end.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:14 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Hunting is usually done for fun with the side effect of killing

Which is why I didn't mention hunting

Quote:
Guns are a tool designed for killing

As are swords, bows and WW2 fighters, yet all of those are used (now) primarily for recreational purposes that do not result in death.

Quote:
their ownly practicable uses are towards that end or the training towards that end.

I just showed you that wasn't true, guns are very practical for having fun via target shooting. While target shooting improves marksmanship, the primary purpose for target shooting is to have fun.

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:15 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
As are swords, bows and WW2 fighters, yet all of those are used (now) primarily for recreational purposes that do not result in death.

Yeah because comparing a plane too a gun is a valid example. Swords and Bows have been superceeded by guns, but all their uses save aesthetics lead directly to their primary function.

Quote:
I just showed you that wasn't true, guns are very practical for having fun via target shooting. While target shooting improves marksmanship, the primary purpose for target shooting is to have fun.

No You didn't and no it isn't

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 3:20 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

A bow is a killing machine, whose primary design revolves around the taking of life. A bow is as deadly or deadlier now as it was when it was first used to hunt a four legged animal. It is as deadly or deadlier now as it was when it was used in the field of battle to mow down infantry at a range of 75-150 yards.

A bow is still used to kill. It is used to take down game during a special hunting season devoted to such.

A bow is primarily used in target shooting and sports competitions.

A bow has a lot in common with a gun. But a gun is a better, more efficient killing machine than a bow. A gun is smaller, faster, and in some versions, longer ranged.

Anyone who uses a bow is practicing a skill that makes them a better killer.

Anyone who uses a gun is practicing a skill that makes them a better killer.

Criminals frequently find occasion to practice skills that make them better criminals.

Some of the skills criminals practice make them better killers.

Criminals frequently obtain or build tools designed to kill.

I have no problem with non-criminals learning skills that make them better killers.

I have no problem with non-criminals obtaining tools designed to kill.

I would like all of my friends and family to be expert killers.

I would like the sheep to have teeth.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Not at all a popular sentiment, possibly even a dangerous one.

If the sheep had teeth, they might start wondering what they really needed that fat, lazy bully of a sheepdog for - and that leads to all manner of unpleasantness and politically incorrect thoughts.

We have firefighters, so why do you need a fire extinguisher ?

For the same durned reason that most folk pack a firearm.

Think.

-F

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:26 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I was wondering how long it would take the know it alls to turn this into a pro/anti gun debate. Had to admit it took much longer than I thought it would in RWED.

Anybody that doesn't have a gun better hope their respective government doesn't ever crumble or bite off more than it can chew. End of story.

I'll give that it is a weapon and it was designed as a weapon.... so what? It's good at what it does and I'd rather see them in more sane individuals hands than lunatics who would do anything for their next fix and officers of a criminal and oppressive police force alike.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:28 PM

SOUPCATCHER

I'm enjoying the discussion but I had to chime in about the whole assault rifle argument. Are you all still talking about home defense? Or are we just at loggerheads with urban versus rural? I can walk out my front door and not see more than one hundred yards in any direction. There is no way in hell that I would need something that was accurate to 400 meters to defend my home (* edited to add: unless someone had detonated a bomb under a bunch of my neighbors. And, at that point, what good am I going to do with an assault rifle? I might as well start mixing chemicals in the basement *). Matter of fact, the sawed off shotgun sounds about right for any place I've lived in (house, apartment, duplex, whatever).

Am I missing something here, or did the conversation go off track somewhat?

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:38 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Am I missing something here, or did the conversation go off track somewhat?

You didn't, and it did. Thanks for seconding that motion.

Let's get this thread back on its topic and anybody who has an opinion on wheather or not somebody else should own a firearm can feel more than free to start their own anti/pro gun thread.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Lemme re-iterate.

It's just a tool.

A match has only one purpose - to start a fire.

Does that make anyone carrying matches an pyromaniac or arsonist?

It's a thing, an object.

Yes it is designed for the express purpose of killing something.

So what ?

Whiskey is designed for the express purpose of intoxication.

Does that make the whiskey, itself.. evil ?

Why do people get so worked up about a mere chunk of metal ?

Answer: They don't, it's a sham.
They get worked up about the thoughts that such self-reliance tend to inspire.

And that tells you all you need to know, doesn't it.

Some people carry tools, and some people ARE tools.

Not really simpler than that.

-Frem

PS... strangely enough, it's a valentines day tradition amongst my fellows to gift weapons, so in that respect, welcome to the club.. pun intended.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:26 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

I have some friends who have told me that they like double-action revolvers for home defense.

Compact, easy to use, and can sit loaded all year ready to be used, then picked up and fired without malfunction or worry.

Of course, there are likely some folks who would object to the revolver's 5-7 shot capacity versus a semiautomatic's potential 15 shot capacity or a rifle's 10-30 shot capacity.

Makes my double barrel seem rather measly by comparison to any of them, with only 2 shots.

But they are QUITE the shots. :-)

Currently I have the shotgun loaded in the computer room, and my Makarov loaded in the bedroom. I do worry about the magazine springs for the Makarov, though. If I forget to rotate the magazine, am I going to pick up the weapon one day and have a feed failure?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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