Siding with the bullies by SignyM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Israel has been the aggressor. It took land and then illegally blockaded a foreign country, engaging in collective punishment. Hamas, as the legitimate government of Gaza has the right and the duty to defend the country AND its citizens.

If Hamas had honored the ceasefire, where would we be right now? Israel would have relaxed restrictions on movement and shipments, you and Hamas would be no closer to regaining the land you think Hamas deserves. Of course, there would be peace, but that's not what you want.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Now I know you support any manner of military aggression, as long as the 'right' people are doing it. And you don't think people who've been attacked should fight back, as long as the 'right' people atacked them. I get that.

This is from the person who has spent the entire thread (no actually multiple threads) insisting that Israel should just sit there while Hamas bombs them, right? In Hamas' view (and evidently yours as well) a ceasefire is Israel doing nothing, while bombs rain on them. That doesn't serve the goal of peace, but it does Hamas' goals.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, January 9, 2009 2:57 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"This is from the person who has spent the entire thread (no actually multiple threads) insisting that Israel should just sit there while Hamas bombs them, right? In Hamas' view (and evidently yours as well) a ceasefire is Israel doing, while bombs rain on them. That doesn't serve the goal of peace, but it does Hamas' goals."

Please correct the grammar, I can't make heads or tails of the post.

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Silence is consent.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Please correct the grammar, I can't make heads or tails of the post.

It doesn’t really matter. I think I finally have a pretty good bead on where your view is, and we aren’t going to agree, because I’m not interested in choosing sides between whose righteous war is right and whose isn’t. Israel's right to exists has been forged in wars for 50 years - they are there and they aren't leaving short of the next Jewish Holocaust. At this point, all I want is a stable situation and peace, which can’t happen while extremist terrorist factions like Hamas are in control. You, however, have chosen Hamas’ side, so you won’t be happy until Hamas has destroyed Israel and made “Palestine an Islamic land.” Hamas can’t win that fight, but they can and will cling to the delusion and continue the violence indefinitely.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:17 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

CHILDREN!

CHILDREN!

You're behaving just like Hamas and Israel, all of you!

YOU STARTED IT!
NO I DIDN'T!
YES YOU DID, YOU'RE A CHEATER!
AND YOU'RE A LIAR!
LIAR!
CHEATER!

Right now, I don't see either side as fully justified throughout their long history. BOTH sides have engaged in heinous acts.

But we have to get PAST this view of who is right and who is wrong because all that does is enable an endless cycle of "righteous" violence and "just" vengeance. Yes, I know its not fair: Israel was given land by foreign powers which was already occupied by the Palestinians. But since history is written by the victors and Israel has hung onto its plot of land and been recognized as a legitimate nation, we have to move on from there.

The question is: What SHOULD Israel be doing if it is truly interested in self-defense, and not just grabbing land? What SHOULD the Palestinians be doing? What should foreign powers be doing? And who should do what first?

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:23 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"You, however, have chosen Hamas’ side, so you won’t be happy until Hamas has destroyed Israel and made “Palestine an Islamic land.”"

Finn, I never said that. Never implied it. Never even thought it.

So please, shove your crap back up your ass insted of shitting it all over the board.

Said with all DUE respect, of course.

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Silence is consent.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:26 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I think I finally have a pretty good bead on where your view is, and we aren’t going to agree, because I’m not interested in choosing sides between whose righteous war is right and whose isn’t.
yes you are.

Quote:
Israel's right to exists has been forged in wars for 50 years - they are there and they aren't leaving short of the next Jewish Holocaust. At this point, all I want is a stable situation and peace,[

So far, so good

Quote:
which can’t happen while extremist terrorist factions like Hamas are in control.

Why is thsi all Hamas' responsibility to fix? The people of Gaza have legitimate grievances about food shortages, lack of jobs, medicine, free travel... ALL of that caused by Israel and exploitable by Hamas. The people of Gaza can't POSSIBLY solve those grievious problems, it's in Israel's hands.

Quote:
You, however, have chosen Hamas’ side, so you won’t be happy until Hamas has destroyed Israel and made “Palestine an Islamic land.”

No, Rue has never said that. I think what Rue means is: Israel must release their economic stranglehold on Gaza, and engage in proportionate response. You are as incapable of understanding a balanced postion as Hamas.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The question is: What SHOULD Israel be doing if it is truly interested in self-defense, and not just grabbing land? What SHOULD the Palestinians be doing? What should foreign powers be doing? And who should do what first?

Hamas has to be removed from power in the Gaza Strip. Fatah and the Palestinian Parliament can then be re-instated as the legitimate government. At that point diplomacy can then begin.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:44 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Hamas has to be removed from power in the Gaza Strip. Fatah and the Palestinian Parliament can then be re-instated as the legitimate government."

Are you calling for the democratically elected government of Gaza to be 'removed' while a non-democratically elected government be installed ?

If that is what you truly mean, why not also call for the same treatment for Israel ?

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Silence is consent.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:45 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Basically, you want "regime change" in Gaza. But that's as realistic as "regime change" in Israel.

Magic Eight Ball says: try again.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Why is thsi all Hamas' responsibility to fix? The people of Gaza have legitimate grievances about food shortages, lack of jobs, medicine, free travel... ALL of that caused by Israel and exploitable by Hamas. The people of Gaza can't POSSIBLY solve those grievious problems, it's in Israel's hands.

Hamas isn’t going to fix anything Signym. I don’t understand why that is so hard for you to grasp. Hamas is going to wage war on Israel. That’s it. Nothing can be fixed as long as Hamas is in power.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
No, Rue has never said that. I think what Rue means is: Israel must release their economic stranglehold on Gaza, and engage in proportionate response. You are as incapable of understanding a balanced postion as Hamas.

Balanced position? You want Israel to engage in a tit for tat with Hamas? How about this, every time a bomb is lobbed into Israel, the Israelis should lob a bomb into Gaza? Do you think the bloodshed would be any less disproportionate? Maybe a little. That’s proportionate warfare and its bullshit. It’s just violence for the sake of violence. Israel’s not going to agree to that, because all that does is hand Hamas a victory. Israel should use violence to achieve a goal and in this case, the goal should be the elimination and Hamas.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:50 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Israel should use violence to achieve a goal and in this case, the goal should be the elimination and Hamas."

And now we get to your REAL interest. YOU don't care about the Palestinians, about ending violence, about peace, or solutions, or simple jsutice. YOU want Israeli territorial gain from Israeli military aggression.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Hamas has to be removed from power in the Gaza Strip. Fatah and the Palestinian Parliament can then be re-instated as the legitimate government."

Are you calling for the democratically elected government of Gaza to be 'removed' while a non-democratically elected government be installed ?

Rue read something about the Middle East for once in your life, will you? Hamas is not a democratically elected government. Hamas was elected to a certain number of seats in the Palestinian Parliament; afterwards they declared themselves to sole rulers of the Palestinian Territories. There was a civil war, because not surprisingly the other democratically elected members of Parliament didn’t share Hamas’ view of “democracy” as Hamas in total control. Hamas conquered Fatah in Gaza Strip and then consolidated power. What is democratic about that?

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Basically, you want "regime change" in Gaza. But that's as realistic as "regime change" in Israel.

That’s your only option. Hamas wants war – continuous warfare. If you want to fix the problems in the Gaza Strip – Hamas has to be removed.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And now we get to your REAL interest. YOU don't care about the Palestinians, about ending violence, about peace, or solutions, or simple jsutice. YOU want Israeli territorial gain from Israeli military aggression.

So if it’s not ruled by Hamas it’s Israeli territory? That’s Hamas’ view. Once again, you’re opinion is very much in line with Hamas.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:54 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Ya know Finn --- in the future when you post on this topic, if I'm around I'm going to reverse the names Hamas and Israel and repost it, just to try it out for fairness.

Like this:

Israel isn’t going to fix anything Signym. I don’t understand why that is so hard for you to grasp. Israel is going to wage war on Hamas. That’s it. Nothing can be fixed as long as Israel is in power.

Balanced position? You want Hamas to engage in a tit for tat with Israel? How about this, every time a bomb is lobbed into Gaza, the Palestinians should lob a bomb into Israel? Do you think the bloodshed would be any less disproportionate? Maybe a little. That’s proportionate warfare and its bullshit. It’s just violence for the sake of violence. Hamas’s not going to agree to that, because all that does is hand Israel a victory. Hamas should use violence to achieve a goal and in this case, the goal should be the elimination (of) Israel.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Israel isn’t going to fix anything Signym. I don’t understand why that is so hard for you to grasp. Israel is going to wage war on Hamas. That’s it. Nothing can be fixed as long as Israel is in power.

Hamas is the one that continuously violates ceasefires, but either way it doesn’t matter whether Israel is waging war on Hamas or Hamas is waging war on Israel – nothing will get fixed. And you have your continuous warfare.

And perhaps if you educated yourself a little better about the topic, you wouldn’t feel the need to resort to these childish tactics.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 4:03 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"So if it’s not ruled by Hamas it’s Israeli territory? That’s Hamas’ view. Once again, you’re opinion is very much in line with Hamas."

Again, your post makes no sense. Hamas is the legitimate, democratically-elected government of Gaza. If it's not 'ruled' by Hamas, then it's being 'ruled' by a foreign-backed puppet government. You seem to keep missing that point.

HHHhhmmm ... Maybe if I put it in all caps, separated it out and bolded it you might actually read it.

HAMAS IS THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED AND LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT OF GAZA.

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Is that simple enough for you ?

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Friday, January 9, 2009 4:04 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Israel is the one that continuously violates ceasefires, but either way it doesn’t matter whether Hamas is waging war on Israel or Israel is waging war on Hamas – nothing will get fixed. And you have your continuous warfare.

And perhaps if you educated yourself a little better about the topic, you wouldn’t feel the need to resort to these childish tactics.

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I found this tibit, which I thought I'd repost, and then reverse:

That’s your only option. Hamas wants war – continuous warfare. If you want to fix the problems in the Gaza Strip – Hamas has to be removed.

That’s your only option. Israel wants war – continuous warfare. If you want to fix the problems in the Gaza Strip – Israel has to be removed.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 4:23 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Hamas is the one that continuously violates ceasefires

The ONLY one???

Quote:
And perhaps if you educated yourself a little better about the topic, you wouldn’t feel the need to resort to these childish tactics.

It seems to me that your statement applies just as neatly to Israel as to Hamas... a point you hope no-one else will see, which is why you call this a "childish trick". It is not. It is a perfectly legitimate logical test.

Please, Finn... study up on some logic. When I questioned you, you said I engaged in "Nazi" tactics. I did not. My approach is called the Socratic Method. This is another case of you failing to see a legitimate logical test.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Don't let your logic be overwhelmed by emotion.

Please check out this link (originally posted in the "scorecard" section)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:23 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh, BTW Finn

"On January 25, 2006, elections were held for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). Notwithstanding the 2005 municipal elections and the January 9, 2005 presidential election, this was the first election to the PLC since 1996; subsequent elections had been repeatedly postponed due to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinian voters in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank including East Jerusalem were eligible to participate in the election.

Final results show that Hamas won the election, with 74 seats to the ruling-Fatah's 45, providing Hamas with the majority of the 132 available seats and the ability to form a majority government on their own."

I got this from the Nazi website Wikipedia, which has declared its intent to see a Hamas victory over Israel, or permanent war, or something like that.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Israel's right to exists has been forged in wars for 50 years - they are there and they aren't leaving short of the next Jewish Holocaust.

Just jumping in here, but how long have the Palestinians been in the area that is now Israel? Do they have a right to exist? Have they not forged that right in wars for over a thousand years?

It seems like they are there and they aren't leaving short of a Palestinian holocaust.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:35 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"You, however, have chosen Hamas’ side, so you won’t be happy until Hamas has destroyed Israel and made “Palestine an Islamic land.”"

Finn, I never said that. Never implied it. Never even thought it.

So please, shove your crap back up your ass insted of shitting it all over the board.

Said with all DUE respect, of course.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Rue, don't you get it? According to Finn himself, arbitrarily assigning an opinion to someone else is truly an act of desperation. Ergo, Finn is desperate. Truly.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:55 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Just jumping in here, but how long have the Palestinians been in the area that is now Israel? Do they have a right to exist? Have they not forged that right in wars for over a thousand years?

Thank you. I was going to bring that up.

Finn keeps saying... "But you have to look at the context"

Well, the CONTEXT is that Palestine... which was already inhabited by Palestinian farmers, herders, and small shopkeepers for centuries... was given to the Jews by a foreign power. And Palestinians have been paying ever since for European guilt and prejudice. MHO that was unjust and illegitimate.

So, does Israel have a RIGHT to exist???? Not in THAT context.

Nonetheless Israel exists. Everyone else has to adjust. But so does Israel.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It seems to me that your statement applies just as neatly to Israel as to Hamas...

Actually that’s what I just said, Einstein. Glad you get on the same page.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Please, Finn... study up on some logic. When I questioned you, you said I engaged in "Nazi" tactics. I did not. My approach is called the Socratic Method. This is another case of you failing to see a legitimate logical test.

Actually the phrase I used was Gestapo tactics, and it has nothing to do with questioning or the Socratic Method. It has a lot to do with you not listening, which is what you’re doing right now.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Please check out this link (originally posted in the "scorecard" section)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I didn’t see anything here that is new to me. And I think most Americans already know this. Not everyone decides who is right and who is wrong based on who is bigger, like you do. By that logic every terrorist faction in the world would be the good guys. Get rid of Hamas and put a reasonable government over the Palestinian territories and these problems can be addressed. Otherwise there’s no way they can be addressed.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 7:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Israel's right to exists has been forged in wars for 50 years - they are there and they aren't leaving short of the next Jewish Holocaust.

Just jumping in here, but how long have the Palestinians been in the area that is now Israel? Do they have a right to exist? Have they not forged that right in wars for over a thousand years?

It seems like they are there and they aren't leaving short of a Palestinian holocaust.

I don’t see anyone asking them to leave, do you? I think what is wanted is simply for Hamas to stop bombing Israel, not for the Palestinians to leave.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 7:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Just jumping in here, but how long have the Palestinians been in the area that is now Israel? Do they have a right to exist? Have they not forged that right in wars for over a thousand years?
Thank you. I was going to bring that up.

Finn keeps saying... "But you have to look at the context"

Well, the CONTEXT is that Palestine... which was already inhabited by Palestinian farmers, herders, and small shopkeepers for centuries... was given to the Jews by a foreign power. And Palestinians have been paying ever since for European guilt and prejudice. MHO that was unjust and illegitimate.

So, does Israel have a RIGHT to exist???? Not in THAT context.

So no nation has a right to exist if you can identify a culture or ethnicity that existed in the nation previously? That would mean that Britain doesn’t have a right to exist, since we know the Welsh were there before the English. The US and Canada doesn’t have a right to exist because we know that Native Americans were here first. And as it turns out, Islam came about in 7th century violently displacing Christianity through much of the Middle Eastern world when it over ran the Eastern Roman Empire, so the Muslim world doesn’t have a right to exist either. But Judaism existed in Palestine long before Christianity or Islam...

So where does this nonsense lead us? Warfare. Have fun.

And here’s some context for you: When was Palestine ever Palestinian land? Not until the Palestinian territories where formed. Prior to that it was British land. Prior to that it was Turkish, Egyptian, Roman or Greek. So the first Palestinian state that has ever existed was the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Seems to me that the question of whether Israel exists is moot at best. It does. period.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Final results show that Hamas won the election, with 74 seats to the ruling-Fatah's 45, providing Hamas with the majority of the 132 available seats and the ability to form a majority government on their own."

I got this from the Nazi website Wikipedia, which has declared its intent to see a Hamas victory over Israel, or permanent war, or something like that.

Keep reading. It gets better. There’s the whole part about Hamas declaring themselves sole rulers of all of Israel, which sparked the Palestinian civil war and THAT is how Hamas got control of the Gaza Strip – it wasn’t through an election.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 8:17 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So where does this nonsense lead us? Warfare. Have fun.

Indeed. Exactly what I was trying to point out. But somehow, in YOUR application of principle, it comes out so.... one-sided.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 8:27 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Keep reading."

So, are you saying that Hamas DIDN'T win the election ? Is that what you're claiming ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:03 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The proposal to renew the ceasefire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.

Hamas promised to stop all attacks, by any party, against Israel in the original June ceasefire agreement. Since they didn't do it in June, why should their offer to do it in December hold water?

I'm still of the opinion that both Hamas and the Israeli government are the bullies here. I don't generally believe any statement that comes from either side without independent confirmation, and hold little faith in any of their promises.

The only real difference I see is that the Israeli government doesn't care much how many Palestinians it kills as long as its aims are met, and Hamas doesn't care much how many Palestinians it gets killed as long as its aims are met.

Note that I identify the bullies as 'Hamas' and 'the Israeli government', not 'Palestinians' and 'Israelis'.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:32 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And here’s some context for you: When was Palestine ever Palestinian land? Not until the Palestinian territories where formed. Prior to that it was British land. Prior to that it was Turkish, Egyptian, Roman or Greek.

Actually, the first nation-state to exist in the current geographic location of Israel was...the Kingdom of Israel, otherwise known as the United Monarchy. This was from circa 1025 BCE. King David, King Solomon, all that biblical stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Monarchy

The Jews were chased out of what is now Israel in waves, including the Assyrian invasion of 722 BCE, the Babylonian Captivity of 588 BCE, and the Romans over several centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:00 AM

America loves a winner!

Has it not come to anyone's attention that the Israeli gov't is currently under control of those LEAST likely to use force as an answer to the Hamas problem? And yet , almost to a man, the people of Israel are in full support of this latest action by the Israeli military. It's the liberals who are running the show now. It's gotten that bad, even they think force is needed. Wonder how many folks think about that before they bash Israel.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:53 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains as we were about Iraq. It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

Geezer: there is a Hungarian saying that if every European nation were as big as it once was, Europe would have to be ten times larger than it is now. The first nation state in that area was definitely not Israel, which was preceded by several kingdom and empires: Sumeria, Phonecia, Egypt, and some they're JUST finding out about. By that logic, maybe they should have a state of Sumeria.

http://history.binghamton.edu/hist130/docs/timelin1.htm

Looking back more than a two or three generations doesn't work. But by the same logic that Israel is a legitimate state, Hamas is equally legitimate... a concept that Finn keeps tripping over.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:03 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But by the same logic that Israel is a legitimate state, Hamas is equally legitimate... a concept that Finn keeps tripping over.

Yes Rue, a legitimate terrorist organization.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BDN, if one performs acts of terror, one is a terrorist. Doesn't matter if you're Jewish or Muslim or Catholic or Protestant or Hindu or Buddhist or animist or atheist, doesn't matter if you use a nail-filled vest or a Blackhawk.

One of the things I find interesting is that the right wing used to keep squealing about "moral relativism" and "lack of accountability". All I'm doing is applying moral absolutism and accountability: You are what you do, and you're responsible for it

Do YOU have any problems with that statement? You shouldn't. It's what the right wing has been pushing for.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Keep reading."

So, are you saying that Hamas DIDN'T win the election ? Is that what you're claiming ?

Keep reading, rue. Set aside this strange loyalty you have to Hamas just long enough to understand the truth. There’s more to know and much of it will surprise you if you’re brave enough and open-minded enough to read it. I have faith in you – don’t let me down!

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:31 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I would get a MUSCULAR UN peace force together (no more Rwandas allowed) with troops equally balanced between pro-Israelis and those who disapprove (that would be divided between US troops and anyone else).

I would tell Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. The settlements ? Well, you shoulda' made sure you had legal title to the land. I would tell Gaza groups to stop shelling. I would open up the borders and make UN troops responsible for border security. I would tell the various groups in Gaza that since the borders were NOW open and would STAY open b/c Israel was no longer in control, there would be NO MORE shelling. Any more shelling, and UN troops would go away, along with UN aid, and they (Gazans) would be left to deal with Israel on their own. I would tell Israel that any more stunts like that, and US foreign aid gets cut in half. And the next time after that, it goes away completely.

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I agree with all of your suggestions, at least in their spirit. I don't know the details of the 1967 borders - whatever - it can be debated and decided in due time after a cease fire.

I disagree on the UN force being pulled if there are any more rockets. There most definitely will be more rockets from somewhere in Gaza no matter what the terms are, and it's expensive to place troops and then yank them.

And start building a huge wall. These 2 are like family members that can't get along - keep them separated or there's gonna be a fight.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains... It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

What gall and utter delusion for you to pass judgment on the will and intelligence of Israeli citizens. Your stunning stupidity, and irrationally biased support for evil is appalling, and all sane people can see now that you now lie in filth in the gutter next to PN and the rest of the team that supports your insane positions; positions that cheerlead for Al Qaeda, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Skinheads, Traditional European Anti-Semitism & Nazism, etc.all determined to destroy Israel. You are on the team of savages, enemies of civilization, enslavers of women, and barbaric enforcers of dogmatic vileness. You make me sick. Why don't you go down to Ft Lauderdale and stand proudly next to the gal screaming out the other day to throw Jews back into the oven. She's on your team. She see the world like you do. Like the forces you support and sympathize with you are psychotic, and morally and ethically bankrupt.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:42 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
biased support for evil is appalling

You shall know them by their works.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:44 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains... It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

What gall and utter delusion for you to pass judgment on the will and intelligence of Israeli citizens. Your stunning stupidity, and irrationally biased support for evil is appalling, and all sane people can see now that you now lie in filth in the gutter next to PN and the rest of the team that supports your insane positions; positions that cheerlead for Al Qaeda, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Skinheads, Traditional European Anti-Semitism & Nazism, etc.all determined to destroy Israel. You are on the team of savages, enemies of civilization, enslavers of women, and barbaric enforcers of dogmatic vileness. You make me sick. Why don't you go down to Ft Lauderdale and stand proudly next to the gal screaming out the other day to throw Jews back into the oven. She's on your team. She see the world like you do.

Well said. Bravo!

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:59 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
you now lie in filth in the gutter next to PN and the rest of the team that supports your insane positions; positions that cheerlead for Al Qaeda, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Skinheads, Traditional European Anti-Semitism & Nazism, etc.all determined to destroy Israel. You are on the team of savages, enemies of civilization, enslavers of women, and barbaric enforcers of dogmatic vileness. You make me sick. Why don't you go down to Ft Lauderdale and stand proudly next to the gal screaming out the other day to throw Jews back into the oven. She's on your team. She see the world like you do.

Not to speak for Rue, but I think you misunderstand.

I personally don't like Islam, and I especially don't like Muslim extremists. LONG BEFORE it became an issue in your feeble world-view I was deeply against aiding the mujahideen. I could see where THAT was going. So piss off on that, OK?

MOST peeps want what most other peeps want: a meaningful job, food for the family, a safe place to sleep at night, a modicum of control over their lives, friends and community, and at least a little fairness. Any system that provides that will win over a population over two or three generations. Israel is doing the exact opposite., and they are stoking the fires of extremism.

You don't get rid of terrorists by subjugating an entire population.

So, in brief: fuck you.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains... It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

What gall and utter delusion for you to pass judgment on the will and intelligence of Israeli citizens. Your stunning stupidity, and irrationally biased support for evil is appalling, and all sane people can see now that you now lie in filth in the gutter next to PN and the rest of the team that supports your insane positions; positions that cheerlead for Al Qaeda, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Skinheads, Traditional European Anti-Semitism & Nazism, etc.all determined to destroy Israel. You are on the team of savages, enemies of civilization, enslavers of women, and barbaric enforcers of dogmatic vileness. You make me sick. Why don't you go down to Ft Lauderdale and stand proudly next to the gal screaming out the other day to throw Jews back into the oven. She's on your team. She see the world like you do.

Well said. Bravo!

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Since you do most of the rational posting on this, and take on the Rue et al's, I say Bravo to you. The real mystery is whether those that defend, rationalize, and equivocate for the forces against Irseal realize that their defendants wish the exact same fate for them.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:03 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BTW- Riverlove, since you're a Ft Lauderdale Jew, I understand you bias. But it IS a bias.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains as we were about Iraq. It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

Of course more likely the Israelis don’t take to being continuously bombed as you would like them to be.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer: there is a Hungarian saying that if every European nation were as big as it once was, Europe would have to be ten times larger than it is now. The first nation state in that area was definitely not Israel, which was preceded by several kingdom and empires: Sumeria, Phonecia, Egypt, and some they're JUST finding out about. By that logic, maybe they should have a state of Sumeria.

Israeli could have been the first Nation State. (Samaria never existed in the region of Palestine.) It’s hard to nail down what happened during the Bronze Age and Chalolithic Age in that region, because there was so much going on. Multiple cultures influencing one another – it’s hard to even know what is a separate people what is an evolution of existing cultures. For instance there is very little archeological evidence for the Hebrew invasion of Canaan, what evidence there is seems to suggest that the Hebrews and the Canaanites were the same people. The distinction between them simply represents when this culture changed from being a loosing connected hegemony of individual City-States to the single unified Nation-State of Israel.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Looking back more than a two or three generations doesn't work. But by the same logic that Israel is a legitimate state, Hamas is equally legitimate... a concept that Finn keeps tripping over.

Hamas goes back to 1987. That’s hardly one generation. Your loyalty to Hamas is misplaced. And my disagreement with Hamas has less to do with how legitimate they are (and they were never elected to be totalitarian rulers of the Gaza Strip no matter how ignorant you intend to remain), instead my disagreements stems more from the fact that nothing can be done as long as they are in power, a concept that you are constantly tripping over.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:08 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Israel is doing the exact opposite., and they are stoking the fires of extremsism.

You don't get rid of terrorists by subjugating an entire population.

I know you know this, but Islam IS extremism. From the mujahideen , to al - qaeda, to the suicide bombers and those who behead little girls in the Philippines. ITS' NOT JUST A SYMPTOM OF ISRAEL'S EXISTENCE ! Israel gave up Gaza, and it was repaid with several THOUSAND rockets being shot their way. What the hell is it that keeps some from seeing what is so damned obvious ??

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- Riverlove, since you're a Ft Lauderdale Jew, I understand you bias. But it IS a bias.

Wrong on both counts you Nazi idiot. You said your "fuck you" for the day already. Now you can put your typing thumb back up your sorry ass.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Since you do most of the rational posting on this, and take on the Rue et al's, I say Bravo to you. The real mystery is whether those that defend, rationalize, and equivocate for the forces against Irseal realize that their defendants wish the exact same fate for them.

I fear the only way they'd ever come to understand just how wrong they are on this issue is if they found their way to Iran, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, were accused of promoting something like tolerance to gays , or that women should be allowed to vote, or maybe talked to a woman who was not related to them, and see what happens.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
MOST peeps want what most other peeps want: a meaningful job, food for the family, a safe place to sleep at night, a modicum of control over their lives, friends and community, and at least a little fairness. Any system that provides that will win over a population over two or three generations. Israel is doing the exact opposite., and they are stoking the fires of extremism.

What Israel is doing is defending itself from continuous attack by an extremist terrorist organization that sadly has gained control in the Gaza Strip. Get rid of Hamas, and Palestinian people in Gaza can be provided for. Maybe you think that because Israel is so much bigger then Gaza that the lives of individual Israelis are less important, but that’s not the way the Israelis see it. And Hamas will counter any effort to improve the standard of living in Gaza because they want the Palestinians under their thumb. Nothing will happen until Hamas is gone.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:29 AM