Whatcha think of the 'Opt Out' public option? by Niki2

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
It still has to be a CHOICE, otherwise your dictating matters of personal life.

I think reality will catch up with us, Byte, and it will no longer be a choice. AFA Indai versus China, your point that it's easy to live on $1000/ year is specious. India has widespread, grinding poverty. Their latest foray into laissez-faire capitalism HAS succeeded in creating a middle class, but only at the expense of the poor.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:54 AM

BYTEMITE

Technically, you can live on $1000 a year here in the United States. I think DT made that point somewhere.

But you bring up a good point as well: looking at that figure, considering the number of poor in India, it doesn't seem like that's the likely average income per year. I wonder if India is selectively surveying.

"Reality will catch up with us, and it will no longer be a choice." You say that with urgency, but what I hear is something that freaks the hell out of me, and not for the reasons you want.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:19 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"China and India don't have inflation like we do."

I wasn't comparing China and India to the US, I was comparing them to each other. Relative to India, China's people seem to be faring quite well with the policies. GDP is soaring and income is quite high (compared to India's).

Granted, there are other major policies at work - economic systems for one. And I would attribute most improvements to those other policies. But if formal population limits are a major negative factor, I think they would show up in the economics. From the data, it appears they don't have a large negative impact.

"And I mentioned that policies for reduced family sizes unnerve me ..."

If it were a matter of forced abortion or sterilization I can see that. There is the perception of individual control that needs to be maintained to keep people happy. But tax policies like :you get an exemption for one child, nothing for the second, and a per-child penalty for more than two: might satisfy the need for perceived control along with policies that encourage limits.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:24 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I'd have to look at the chemical reactions, but by releasing CO2 from carbonates, and theoretically having evaporated a lot of water, you might also make carbonic acid."

But releasing a lot of carbonic acid into the atmosphere encourages the equilibrium to shift the other way to the formation of carbonates. (noted in chemistry under this notation)

[CO2] [H2O] <-> [H2CO3]

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:25 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But you bring up a good point as well: looking at that figure, considering the number of poor in India, it doesn't seem like that's the likely average income per year

Byte, that's the problem with averages. If you have ten ballplayers sitting on a bench, and nine of them make $10,000 a year and one of them makes $1,000,000, the average (per capita) salary is about $110,000 per year. When you look at those figures you'd think that ballplayers are doing... yanno... okay. But in reality, the vast majority are on starvation wages.

The problem is, it's almost impossible for us to envision the monstrous differences in wealth. It's beyond common understanding.

The analogy that I heard which made it crystal clear to me was the football-field analogy: If you were to represent income distribution in the USA by stacks of $1000 bills on a football field, the stack at the 20 yard line would be about 0.25 inches high, the stack at the 50-yard line would be about an inch high ($50,000, the median income) and the stack at the goal line would be 16 MILES high!

Of course, if you on talk about "per capita" income, then it looks like everyone in the USA is doing... yannno... okay. And that's the USA, where income distribution is not as lopsided as India.

Quote:
You say that with urgency, but what I hear is something that freaks the hell out of me, and not for the reasons you want.

No, I say that as a prediction. I have no control over what will or won't happen, so urgency (on my part) is out of the question. Consider my comments to be fatalistic. All I'm saying is that I predict that you will not be as freaked out now as you will be then.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:34 AM

BYTEMITE

Rue: Ah, yes, also true. Concentration gradients and equilibrium constants can drive an equation left or right. Although, I think I recall that geologically, carbonate formation (and dissolution) is considered to be governed by three big reactions, and carbonates tend to not form in warm conditions, it's a cold water reaction. It's part of the reason ocean acidification has become a concern. I'll see if I can't find them.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Funny thing about that, is one of the reasons I have no human children is social more so than any other factor - one of the few things I hold against my mother was that she knowingly set me loose on a world where my beliefs, my values, would be forever unwelcome, where I would be an outsider all my life, mistrusted, disliked, unwanted...

I'll be damned if imma condemn an innocent child to that - although one who has *chosen* that path, I will support so much as I can do so.

In lieu of children, I have cats (all fixed, mind you!) which are in many ways a lot like children...

Furry little spoiled rotten BAD children, that is.
*shoves one off the keyboard*

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:46 AM

BYTEMITE

I thought cats were actually our slave masters and just put up with the cutesy noises, baby talk, and petting because it's evidence of how inferior we are to them.

Yeah, I'm not having kids either. I don't know if my crazy is genetic, but it's probably not worth taking the risk.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:51 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Furry little spoiled rotten BAD children, that is. *shoves one off the keyboard...*

... because it was busy typing cojnfask lczsmfdasefvcdoscndcvm ldfcjoapfkvm z/..

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:56 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

My sister's cat was scampering around in the middle of the night and accidentally knocked the phone off the hook AND dialed 911. The first thing she knew about it was when the doorbell rang and she saw a flashing red light through her window ...

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:04 AM

Piz,

The govt. sues the Amish all the time, that's what I was referring to. My brother teaches law, and this is one of the subjects he has to cover "why the amish always win." The core is basically two-fold: 1) They're always on the side of the constitutions, and 2) they never tick anyone off in the process.

If you have a legal case in which you badger the law and make yourself an annoyance, then it doesn't matter what the merits are, you are likely to lose.

re: corn, the metabolic processes of corn are very simple compared with that of fish. once corn has been eaten by a fish, it ceases to be corn and becomes fish.

Frem,

re: matrix, i really agree ;)

I've read the Winnowing, and that thought of course occurred to me. My counterpoint would be this: Re: TPTB? If it's illegal and evil, figure if they're not doing it yet, they certainly have it on the shelf, and have for decades, like Northwoods, and they damn well don't need anybody's okay to go ahead and do it.

Technologically, this can already be done. Hence my point on "localization." If you have the technology to radically upscale the production per acre, then you don't *need* some UN sponsored aid program. The people of Nigeria can deal with the issue themselves, and not just the govt. of Nigeria, because I know TPTB have a fairly decent hold on that govt., though I'll admit that it is definitely slipping. Still, they could steal almost any govt, at least for enough time to perpetrate a disaster.

I think that the power of GMO is something that needs to be in the hands of the people. The powers will do it anyway.

Re: competition vs. cooperation, remember that both are equally valid. Cooperation without check is what leads to dictatorship. I know a psychologist who has a very interesting take on Germany (this would be the designer of a notorious experiment discussed here some months ago, IIRC, I didn't mention knowing the guy.) Anyway, his take is that German society prior to WWII was so cooperative by nature, that it was an easy target for fascist takeover. Mussolini selected it for specific reasons, and a lot of international financiers backed the idea. Simply put, lie to the Germans about *what* you're doing, and tell them there's an essential greater good, and they will essentially fall in line and cooperate.

Honestly, I can't say that the US did much better in WWII. I mean of course, Americans in America, vs. Germans in Germany, neither of which were really committing atrocities, but we were both falling in line to "support the war effort" without a lot of thought to the matter of "why the hell are we invading Japan?" (or Russia if you were a German)

Quote:

A bombed out and poisoned field surrounded by piles of bones is of no use to anyone.

And yet TPTB pursue this end repeatedly. I think I know why too, but I'm not going to post it here.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 10:20 AM

Rue,

On the issue of China vs. India, China has an unnaturally positive trade agreement with the US which helps it out a lot. That said, I'd generally agree. I'd add that another difference is that China has a far greater abundance of natural resources. These definitely effect things.

I do take your point that this could construct a vote in favor of capitalist-socialist hybrid over let them eat cake. I don't share that conclusion, but it's a valid argument. I could easily counter that the majority of China's GDP comes from its Laissez-faire "special development zones" which is largely communist for "places that we took over and who would secede from us if we monkeyed with their economy" like Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. Shanghai has been added to this list as an experiment.

My prediction is that the financial-industrial triangle of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Shanghai will take over China by the end of the next decade, and then the masses of one billion poor will be their problem. For the most part, I expect them to try to convert this into a labor source, but will require a sort of Samsung mindset in order to have any serious success.

Re: terraforming, yes, this was all very long term. There really won't be a need for it, every solar system will have at least one earth. I wouldn't be surprised if within neptune or uranus there was a habitable environment, but the situation that creates earth is almost a forgone conclusion. The elements separate out on the solar disc, and then again in planet formation. My guess is that the most earthlike worlds will *not* be free standing planets, but moons of large gas giants.

Chemically, humans live in cities, so we're fairly adaptable rats. Obviously, there are a number of species that we would have to take with us, particularly plants, but we would need those on our spaceship in order to make it anywhere. But we don't need another earth to live in space, we could make an artificial environment on a large space station pretty easily, at least, with less work than a lot of what we've already done. But all of this is out of the question for a people who have yet to be able to colonize Antarctica.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 12:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Miss Byte, while I cannot confirm a genetic role in the Dark Spark, nor could I deny it - I deliberately limited any contact with my sisters family for a very long time not just to preserve their safety, but also as a check against the inclination to meddle and thus poison the well - I figured they might grow up relatively "normal" without my influence.

More fool me, cause despite that, the middle kid is ENOUGH like me to seriously creep me out, especially in light of research on the topic going as far back as the line exists, there's ALWAYS been one, and yet, only one, in each generation.

This leads me to believe there's some other factor than JUST genetics, and without a logical, scientific explaination in light of plain evidence that this is the case - there's absolutely a possibility of metaphysical or spiritual cause.

So, I think you're screwed - if you truly are a dark spark, then if you have no children, the next closest genetic line to yours is probably in for a rude shock concerning their offspring, usually between ages 9-12.

Not real comfortable with that topic, cause it wanders into the realm of no scientific explaination, and yet, there it is, undeniable and right in front of me - it upsets my teakettle more than a little, yanno ?

I dunno about typing, but Ghoster used to answer the phone when I had one of those old white AT&T office phones, she'd knock it off the cradle and meow into it - was a running joke for a long time with my associates.

Kallista is the REALLY weird one though, a while back I'd bought a box of breaded fish fillets, store brand I hadn't tried before and the picture on the box coulda been anything, not to mention it was plastic wrapped AND the filets were individually bagged seperately inside... and so I pull the box down and reach for the fries, and Kallista goes berserk, slamming her little furry self into my leg and *demanding* a share.

I utterly, absolutely REFUSE to believe that damn cat can READ, oh hell no, I don't care what it looks like, that just ain't frickin possible...
And if it is, we're all doomed anyway.

Oh, and DT ?
There's a REASON I self-identify as a Morlock, that in response to your posts.

-Frem

There always has to be a price.
-Hell Girl

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 1:13 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

" I could easily counter that the majority of China's GDP comes from its Laissez-faire "special development zones" which is largely communist for "places that we took over and who would secede from us if we monkeyed with their economy" like Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc."

'Cept - China is building one new power plant - EACH WEEK. You don't get that kind of demand from a few isolated hot spots.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 1:45 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Piz,

The govt. sues the Amish all the time, that's what I was referring to.

So, opting out not so easy.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 2:51 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DT- according to what I've found, growth in special economic zones (SEZ) has come about to the detriment of rural China. The same story seems to have been repeated in India and Russia: wherever capitalism in implanted, some people get very rich and a lot of people get poorer and live shorter, nastier lives. www.indiatogether.org/2007/feb/opi-sezschina.htm

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:12 PM

Sig,

Again, not shooting in the dark here. You're just confirming what I already know: The economic productivity is coming from the capitalist economies that China recently conquered, not from Communism. Also, those Capitalist enterprises are now using rural China's vast population as a labor source, starting from the east.

Of course, I know lots of Chinese, so I didn't need to guess. The predictions about the economic triangle are not my own. This was first prophesied some years ago by an economist in Beijing, a communist, who advocated against the takeover of Taiwan and Hong Kong on the grounds that together with Shanghai, they would conquer China. We of course are subsidizing this inevitability, speeding up the process.

Whether the rural chinese are better off with jobs and technology I'll never be sure of, but it's no different a question for them than it is for the rest of humanity. Yes, the story in India is very similar. In Russia it's very different, but that's another story.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:13 PM