Two party system..Tea party vs. Democrats by thenewimprovedkaneman

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Two party system..Tea party vs. Democrats

POSTED BY: THENEWIMPROVEDKANEMAN
UPDATED: Friday, August 13, 2010 02:34
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Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sarge, Anthony, it's a beautiful idea, but what I've seen happen in the past is that, if such a movement starts to gain traction and momentum, it gets co-opted by whichever major party is nearest its ideology.

*sigh* Yeah. Still working on that one. I'm tempted to say that at least that is a move in the right direction, a more significant move than lesser-of-two-evils voting is likely to produce. I'm not impressed with them, but the Tea Party is, I think, marginally better (if they are to be the new Republican party) than the neo-cons. But that's not saying much.

Quote:
..I'd actually predicted in the aftermath of the election that it would be the other way 'round, that the GOP was ripe for a takeover by the libertarians in its center, but that reasonable expectation wasn't to occur, to my chagrin and disappointment.

And maybe it did happen, just not to the extent, or in the same direction, as you or I would have liked. As I said, I still think they're an improvement over the neo-cons. But then again, maybe in the end Carlin's darkest pronouncements are true: our politicians suck because we suck. They're the best we're gonna get.

Quote:
Similarly, but at the same time differently, in 2000, Al Gore's campaign lost a significant portion of support to third-party candidate Ralph Nader. There were a large enough number of people who just couldn't hold their nose and pull the lever for the lesser of two evils that it had a profound effect on the election. As a result, the lesser of the two evils lost, and the greatest evil of our time was "selected" President.

I would so love to be able to run some kind of simulation (or as long as we're fantasizing, do a bit of travel) and run the last ten years of history as though Gore had won. Because I suspect the overall vector of history would have changed very little. I'm reasonably confident Gore would have fucked things up just as badly as Bush - perhaps in different ways, but I don't see the overall direction or country changing that much. It'd be a hell of learning experience, in any case.

Quote:
So that's how third-party support usually goes: it either splits a race and throws it to the candidate with the support of less than half of the voters, or it simply gets taken over by the large party in closest proximity.

And I just don't see how it matters. It certainly doesn't matter enough to throw away my vote on a candidate or party I consider "slightly less evil".

Quote:
There's exactly one way to change it, and it's going to take a long, long time: START LOCAL! Start small, vote third-party candidates into office, get them noticed, get them elected, get them listened to, and they'll act as a springboard to launch higher-profile third-party candidates to ever more prestigious statewide and national offices.

It has to be bottom-up, not top-down, I'm certain.

This I totally agree with. It's why I fight so hard against large-scale top down solutions. They only further diminish the power to act locally (health care is a prime example).

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think Ghandi was a 'none of the above' type.

And "don't settle for less" is indeed the conversation.

I agree that we need to treat our children well, and set a better example for them.

Maybe one way to set a better example is to change the nature of the choices we make.

If we choose outside the box, maybe our progeny will as well.

Choosing the futile non-option seems no less futile than the futile option. It might be time to try that.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:20 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I would so love to be able to run some kind of simulation (or as long as we're fantasizing, do a bit of travel) and run the last ten years of history as though Gore had won. Because I suspect the overall vector of history would have changed very little. I'm reasonably confident Gore would have fucked things up just as badly as Bush - perhaps in different ways, but I don't see the overall direction or country changing that much.

Really? I mean...REALLY? Hard to imagine the not-going-to-war-with-Iraq that would have been as bad or nearly so as going-to-war-with-Iraq. If Gore simply avoided that nightmare, the entire world would be better off today.

I don't think there ever had to be a "post 9/11 world." For fuck's sake, the rest of the world has been dealing with terrorists for generations. 9/11 could have just been the day we grew up and joined the world community.

Incidentally, Barack Obama has done far more than most candidates could have done--certainly more than McCain or Mrs. Clinton EVER would have done--in moving our nation back in the direction of a world community. His Cairo speech alone was worth my vote.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:35 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

We can't know what would have been chosen or why under a different candidate, so simulations are impossible. Such thinking is only fun for 'alternate history' works of fiction.

I'm glad you're pleased with the choice you made, HK, and feel that the president has earned the faith you put into him. I made the same choice, but I am not pleased. I can envision this president asking me to choose him again soon, under the promise that THIS time, he'll do what I hoped. THIS time, it'll be really different.

Meanwhile I can imagine the alternative candidates (whoever they will be) promising a swivel back to a time of good judgment that never existed.

Some engineers have posited that the Titanic might have been saved if it had impacted the iceberg head-on. I wonder sometimes if we've only prolonged and exacerbated our problem.

I do not feel the Country is in better shape than it was before. I do not feel safer than before. I do not feel a brighter future than before. The only thing I feel is what you said: The rest of the world seems to like us better.

But we don't seem to like ourselves, each other, or anyone else much better.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:39 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Really? I mean...REALLY? Hard to imagine the not-going-to-war-with-Iraq that would have been as bad or nearly so as going-to-war-with-Iraq. If Gore simply avoided that nightmare, the entire world would be better off today.

Would've happened anyway. Bush and Cheney may have had their own special motivations and grudges, but a number of Clinton administrator advisors went over to the Bush administration, and would've gone over to a Gore administration.

Frem and DT know who I'm talking about, I think Wolfowitz is one of them.

And the CIA had it's own agenda over there too, having to do with some black market weapon smuggling.

The leadership of our country is always firmly in the hands of the Industrial Military Complex.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:31 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I'm glad you're pleased with the choice you made, HK, and feel that the president has earned the faith you put into him. I made the same choice, but I am not pleased. I can envision this president asking me to choose him again soon, under the promise that THIS time, he'll do what I hoped. THIS time, it'll be really different.

Meanwhile I can imagine the alternative candidates (whoever they will be) promising a swivel back to a time of good judgment that never existed.

Hey Anthony,

I know this sounds kinda cynical, but it occurs to me: would you hire a coach for your football team expecting him to change the game to basketball? Of course not. The game is football. If we don't like football, changing the coach isn't gonna do anything but maybe ensure you lose every game. And Kusinich and Dr. Paul, I'm sorry, they're just basketball coaches and everyone knows it and no one is gonna hire them to coach football. We the people have to stop wanting football if we're gonna get a new game.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:47 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"We the people have to stop wanting football if we're gonna get a new game."

Hello,

Well, I think that's why it was advocated to stop tuning into NFL games altogether.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:49 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Would've happened anyway. Bush and Cheney may have had their own special motivations and grudges, but a number of Clinton administrator advisors went over to the Bush administration, and would've gone over to a Gore administration.

Frem and DT know who I'm talking about, I think Wolfowitz is one of them.

And the CIA had it's own agenda over there too, having to do with some black market weapon smuggling.

The leadership of our country is always firmly in the hands of the Industrial Military Complex.

Byte, your misanthropy is really getting out of hand. I just got finished reading your comments in the Carlin thread that you could never get behind his brand of comedy because he makes everything sound so hopeless and here you go saying the war in Iraq was inevitable. When does a person who thinks as you do get interested in hope?

And I don't buy it for a second. Yes, I too know about the boys who keep hopping from admin to admin, they've been at it at least since Nixon, but they're parasites, and influence peddlers. Bush II was simply a far better host than Gore would ever have been.

Sure, we'd have continued to meddle--and meddle mightily and destructively--in the Middle East (whataya think Saddam was for, in the first place?), but a full-on preemptive war on a country that posed zero threat to this nation? You really think that kind of about face on 65 years of political morality was inevitable???

The world community was united against the war in Iraq, and it was only Bush's willingness to "go rogue" that got it done. A Democratic President would not have gone against the will of the entire world community like that, military-industrial complex or no.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:58 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Really? I mean...REALLY? Hard to imagine the not-going-to-war-with-Iraq that would have been as bad or nearly so as going-to-war-with-Iraq. If Gore simply avoided that nightmare, the entire world would be better off today.

Yeah, really. I mean, it's only a guess. But I think that ugliness like the Bush administration happens because that ugliness exists in the society.

Quote:
I don't think there ever had to be a "post 9/11 world." For fuck's sake, the rest of the world has been dealing with terrorists for generations. 9/11 could have just been the day we grew up and joined the world community.

I totally agree, and a visionary leader could have steered us in a better direction. I'm not convinced Gore would have been a visionary leader. Better than Bush, almost certainly. But I don't know if he would have steered the insecurity and anger provoked by the 9/11 attacks in a particularly productive direction. Especially if you take into account the likely reaction of the neo-cons if Bush had lost.

They wouldn't have just sat on their hands and, much as they're doing with Obama, would have been hard at work to sabotage policies they disagreed with. Assuming Gore avoided the militant impulses of the Bush administration, the Republicans would have worked hard to stoke up anger against him for being "soft" on terrorists. Perhaps to the point that he lost the office in 2004 to someone even worse than Bush (yes, it could have been even worse). By 2010 we might have found ourselves embroiled in war with Iran instead.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:02 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Byte, your misanthropy is really getting out of hand. I just got finished reading your comments in the Carlin thread that you could never get behind his brand of comedy because he makes everything sound so hopeless and here you go saying the war in Iraq was inevitable. When does a person who thinks as you do get interested in hope?

And I don't buy it for a second. Yes, I too know about the boys who keep hopping from admin to admin, they've been at it at least since Nixon, but they're parasites, and influence peddlers. Bush II was simply a far better host than Gore would ever have been.

Sure, we'd have continued to meddle--and meddle mightily and destructively--in the Middle East (whataya think Saddam was for, in the first place?), but a full-on preemptive war on a country that posed zero threat to this nation? You really think that kind of about face on 65 years of political morality was inevitable???

The world community was united against the war in Iraq, and it was only Bush's willingness to "go rogue" that got it done. A Democratic President would not have gone against the will of the entire world community like that, military-industrial complex or no.

Cynicism, not misanthropy. I am cynical about our world, the factions in it, the system. But my always envisioning the worst case scenario does not preclude my having hopes that there are work arounds and bandages to be applied. Carlin believed it was all hopeless and we might as well just die, in as grotesque and irreverent a manner as possible.

However. I do think right now we are living the worst case scenario, and I think the people who jump from administration to administration have more influence than you seem to think.

Al Gore would have complied, or his extra-marital affairs (and likely worse) would have been exposed much sooner. Bush was a rare prize for TPTB; he was willing to go along with them no matter what the plan. But this does not mean coercion wouldn't have gotten the exact same results from anyone else they wanted to put in office. As you've said, we've been meddling in the middle east for 65 years. It's not the Presidents who are calling the shots there (look at how quickly Obama has caved to war demands!). Changing the President, therefore, would make no difference.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:06 AM

BYTEMITE

HK, I highly recommend listening to Serge here. It's seemed pretty clear to me that Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq are primarily about surrounding Iran, which is something higher-ups have wanted to do since our failures in Kuwait (and Kuwait and Israel haven't exactly been silent on encouraging this, either).

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:24 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
But I think that ugliness like the Bush administration happens because that ugliness exists in the society.

Quote:
But I don't know if he would have steered the insecurity and anger provoked by the 9/11 attacks in a particularly productive direction.

It was just 50% of the country--if that. Only in hindsight do we see a country wholeheartedly thirsting for blood. 2000 was a turning point that just needed a nudge in the other direction not to turn. I think that year was exceptional, a year when who the President was mattered more than perhaps it ever has--certainly more than at any other moment in my life time.

But you're right in that we as a Nation are who we are, first, and pick our Presidents second. When Bush won 2000 I recall being fond of reflecting that we got the President "we deserved." My opinion hasn't changed much, but in light of the last 10 years I don't think anyone really deserved what we got.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Y'know, I was going to start a whole separate thread about this, but this one seems to be a great place for it, and most of the people I think would listen to it and take it to heart the most are already here, so I'll just throw this out there...

Anthony, Sarge, Byte, Niki, Frem, Wulf, HKC, Pizmo, Dream, Out2theBlack, and even Rappy, I'd ask you all to listen to at least one episode of Dan Carlin's "Common Sense" podcast. Of course others are invited to listen as well, and I'm sure I've left out a few whom I shouldn't, but I think there are some good topics for conversation in here.

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/csarchive/Show-181---The-Instrument-
of-Destruction/terrorism-secrecy-Osama

I really love his "Hardcore History" podcast, and in the last year have been listening to Common Sense, which deals more with politics and current events. He's independent, and blasts BOTH parties pretty regularly, and makes some really interesting observations. This podcast is pretty chilling stuff. I mean this particular edition, "The Instrument of Destruction", where he addresses Bin Laden's place in history, 9/11, and more importantly, the aftermath, or what he calls "9/12".

Anyhow, as to the lesser of two evils... I voted Obama, not because I agreed with everything he said, but because of the candidates presented to us in the general election, he was the one closest to my ideology. Seems to me that might be the best any of us can hope for.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:39 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

We can't know what would have been chosen or why under a different candidate, so simulations are impossible. Such thinking is only fun for 'alternate history' works of fiction.

I'm glad you're pleased with the choice you made, HK, and feel that the president has earned the faith you put into him. I made the same choice, but I am not pleased. I can envision this president asking me to choose him again soon, under the promise that THIS time, he'll do what I hoped. THIS time, it'll be really different.

Meanwhile I can imagine the alternative candidates (whoever they will be) promising a swivel back to a time of good judgment that never existed.

Some engineers have posited that the Titanic might have been saved if it had impacted the iceberg head-on. I wonder sometimes if we've only prolonged and exacerbated our problem.

I do not feel the Country is in better shape than it was before. I do not feel safer than before. I do not feel a brighter future than before. The only thing I feel is what you said: The rest of the world seems to like us better.

But we don't seem to like ourselves, each other, or anyone else much better.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Heck, I wish I were happier with my choice, too, but I'm not.

If Obama's a one-term Prez, it's because that's all he deserved. If he deserves another term, he'll have to earn it. To say that I'm deeply disappointed with the man in no way endorses "the other guy", but it doesn't fill me with any desire to support Obama in 2012. Maybe he can change that. He says that the Republicans haven't come up with a single solitary policy that's in any way discernibly different than the Bush policies, which is true enough. But what policies has OBAMA come up with that are markedly different than Bush's?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
There are those who say that even such as I must retire, as a blade is retired when grinding use wears it to a sliver—be that sliver ever so sharp.
They say, they say . . .
And they are all of them correct.

-Redliners

I think all of you, in your own way, have a piece of it, like a puzzle where each person has a corner to start from, and they work on it collectively.

There *IS* no single stroke solution to this, ain't never gonna be and anyone who tells you different is... selling something.

As for voting or not voting - one of the things which causes me to view even the other Anarchists at STR askance is that they seem to have the same yes/no, black/white, all-or-nothing thought process about it goin on that they complain about, and shit bricks when this is pointed out to them.

Bob wrote (and got seriously flamed for) a column which sums it up well enough.
When Voting Is Defensible
http://strike-the-root.com/81/jackson/jackson1.html

Me, I didn't vote *FOR* Obama, I voted *AGAINST* the GOP and their psychotic fascism, cause I didn't think this country could survive four more years of outright insanity - and as for the worms in the apple, which Byte mentioned, there's a reckoning coming, but not from us, and I'll say no more about it.

My ex actually votes as an act of sabotage, deliberately selecting her votes in a tactical fashion intended to cause a stalemate, or at least gridlock, out of both malice for this government (which is DAMN ironic since she's a law-n-order "conservative") and because she's well aware that every time they "get something done" the "something" that "gets done" is us peons...
Not that she will admit to this, unless she's half-plastered, mind you.

What we REALLY need to do is change our social consciousness like we've begun to do against the badge bearing gang in blue - we're NOT peasons, they're NOT lords, and it's long past time we reminded them of this, if needs be with the one string we have left to yank - the purse strings.

Believe me, if ENOUGH people quit handing over the dosh so meekly, they couldn't possibly arrest em all.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, August 13, 2010 2:21 AM

KWICKO

Frem: Good take on it, and one that needs repeating, often, as a reminder.

Cops are merely our employees. They respond to us, because WE TELL THEM WHAT TO DO. It's not the other way 'round, no matter how much they'd like us to believe it is.

Similarly, legislators don't "make law" - they write down what we tell them to. They are, in effect, stenographers, secretaries, jotting down what we say because it's what they're paid to do, and we're busy and don't have the time.

And if they don't believe us, maybe we can have them write some changes to their own employment conditions and pay scale as a friendly reminder of exactly who the bosses are, and who the employees.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 13, 2010 2:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm going to repeat what Dreamtrove said many years ago... The BEST time to influence elections is at the PRIMARY. Don't wait for the general elctions to make your voice heard.

But I have to confirm that the Democratic Party's current strategy is to support incumbents, not matter how good their Dem challengers might be. For example, Marcy Winograd was running against Jane Harmon, Marcy would have been 5X better but the Dem party stuck by the incumbent. I think that's a terrible strategy on Dem leadership part... people are PISSED about business-as-usual and they should be paying attention.

Still, the Democratic Party has FAR MORE GOOD PEOPLE in it that the Repubs. A lot of Dems voted against the Iraq War, a lot of Dems voted against the so-called Patriot Act, and a lot of Dems voted against the bank bailouts. You CAN'T say the same about Repubs. So there's a lesson in there about babies and bathwater... vote for the person with the best record, not the party.

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