Protests in the Middle East by pizmobeach

Here's lots of pics of egypt. Warning, they're all on one page, so it's a massive DL if you have a slow connection.

http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/

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Tuesday, February 1, 2011 8:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

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I don't know how much propaganda you've been swallowing, but this is about exactly one thing: Iran won't sign on to the WTO

I don’t believe that for a minute, that this is all about that!

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Also, if this is a women's rights kick, consider that there is a lot of propaganda going around.

I think Frem should tackle that one; if you don’t think there’s a VAST difference between how women are treated there and here, and that how they are treated there somehow reflects “democracy”, Frem can try to explain that to you much better than I ever could.

You don’t think

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Considering that we are failing to do either, as we discuss whether creationism or evolution should be taught in schools, or which overseas energy company should own which american natural resource

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trying to defend their country against take over from foreign interests, while at the same time trying to see that education and science prevail against a backwards religious fundamentalism

then I’m not sure how you’re viewing these things.

You don’t think there’s propaganda from other countries, too? I recognize America experiences propaganda and censorship, but to say propaganda is entirely responsible for how I view the world is something I reject. In all, the cynicism and actual dislike I’ve seen you express about most things American and our government leads me to believe your views are skewed against it, and I feel you make statements that are exaggerated and in some cases inaccurate.

Of course all elections are somewhat fraudulent, but generally not enough to affect the outcome unless truly serious measures are taken. Given the protests in Iran, those to me are reflective of discontent with the election, and I feel they know better what’s happening in their country than we do. Also, polls can be made to reflect whatever the poll-takers want, and there’s the fact that I’m not sure what goes into people’s answers. To dismiss one source completely in favor of others is dangerous; we can’t know if people suspected the poll-takers’ motivations and were responding out of self-interest, or something else. CTTS very validly pointed that out:

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The polls are interesting, but not conclusive to me. People say things in polls that they may not do in the voting booth. Esp in a country with very limited free speech.

Aside from all that, what I said was in response to your statement that “every news agency in the world”, nothing else. To me that’s a reflection of some of the things you post, in that you make very large generalizations based on YOUR view of things only.

Back on topic: I haven’t seen the news yet this morning, and am anxious to do so. They apparently planned the biggest demonstration of all, something about a “million man”, and since most of what took place did so while I was asleep, I’m curious how it turned out.

By the way, I take back what I said about it not being about poverty; I’ll revise that to say it’s not ALL about poverty. I heard last night that the situation is such that for the poor, a person works each day to get enough to go home and feed his family that night, so obviously I’m wrong.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, February 1, 2011 9:01 AM

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I don’t believe that for a minute, that this is all about that!

You don't think that our problem with Iran is a result of their non-membership in the WTO?
I keep posting the link. Here it is again.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/World_Trade_Organiz
ation_negotiations.svg
Member countries are in green. Our enemies are all in some other color. Recent conflicts resolved in our favor, such as Haiti, resulted in them signing the WTO and associated trade treaties. Anything else that is supposedly going on is, IMHO, either propaganda, or a minor side issue that TPTB don't really care about, or, in a few cases, like with the oil, an added side bonus for them.

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I think Frem should tackle that one

I suspect he has better things to do. Come to think of it, so do I.

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if you don’t think there’s a VAST difference between how women are treated there and here,

That wasn't the issue, it was women's rights in Iran vs. its muslim neighbors.
Also. Eugenics is often sold as "women's rights" so there are certain things I can see that the Iranians wouldn't want of our perspective on this, such as that we would like to see no more Iranian children.

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and that how they are treated there somehow reflects “democracy”,

Nah, of course not. Women sometimes have equal rights in a monarchy, and we had a democracy a long time before we had women's rights. It even took a while after women got the vote. Women can vote in Iran you know. For 50 years now, OTOH, it didn't do them any good until there was an islamic revolution, 30 years ago, because before that, it wasn't a democracy, it was a dictatorship, installed by us, over their own democracy.

I would point out, just as a comical side note, that the ancient greeks said that they got democracy from the persians. Persia wasn't a democracy, of course, but it was an idea that they were bouncing around. I don't know why we think we own the idea and get to decide what make a democracy.

Here's one for you. In America, 13% of the population is african american. What % of federal elected offices are held by African americans. 51% of the population is women....

Here's another. In 2000, Al Gore got more votes than George W. Bush, no one denies this, but then the supreme court stepped in and appointed Bush president. Is that democracy?

The UN measure of democracy is: Democracies are ruled by a party or coalition with majority support. If a ruling party consistently gets 70% of the vote or more in elections, it is not a democracy. The reasons are two fold: 1) Such systems never change leaders, and 2) There is no incentive for a majority rule party to attract that last 10%, and every reason for the minority to. So the minority might offer anything to that 10%, but the makority has no reason to offer anything.

Some defunct democracies by this model:

Belarus, Russia, Egypt, South Africa.

Zimbabwe? It's questionable. Lately more so. I suspect that when Mugabe retires democracy will be a reality in Zimbabwe.

Aghanistan is ruled by a man who was polling 23% nationwide at the time of the election, but we invaded the dissenting regions coincidental to the election. Iraq otoh seems to be more or less a democracy. Time will tell if the people can unseat Maliki. I suspect it is very much needed for the americans to go home before anything can happen.

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Tuesday, February 1, 2011 9:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

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Also. Eugenics is often sold as "women's rights"

Another sweeping statement I find not only untrue, but offensive.

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Al Gore got more votes than George W. Bush, no one denies this, but then the supreme court stepped in and appointed Bush president. Is that democracy?

No, and it’s totally wrong. I also find it a fallacy that "no one denies this"--again a flat statement which both cannot be proven and which HAS been proven incorrect.

I never said our democracy was perfect, or even not badly flawed, that was not the issue.

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If a ruling party consistently gets 70% of the vote or more in elections, it is not a democracy

By saying this, you have just contradicted yourself in calling Iran a democracy. In the first place, unless the elections are totally rigged, the people DID vote the party in—-didn’t you say yourself that the Iranian people voted for what they wanted? And secondly, how long has that “party” been in power? It seems to me you are contradicting yourself by those two statements.

I never held Afghanistan OR Iraq up as democracies. They are at this point governments which we essentially installed; it will be shown in time whether the PEOPLE of those countries can retain the concept of democracy, once we are out and they fend for themselves. I personally doubt “democracy” will endure in either country.

Many countries CLAIM to be democracies, as you noted, which actually are not. That doesn't make America a "failed democracy", just a flawed one, and in my opinion Iran is more of a failed democracy in that it's ruled more than a little by a religious group's ideology and it's elections which have kept that group in power have NOT been shown to be free and open.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, February 1, 2011 10:08 AM

I'm not prepared to comment on which democracy is better, America or Iran. It may be a moot point. But I'm learning lots.

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Al Gore got more votes than George W. Bush, no one denies this, but then the supreme court stepped in and appointed Bush president. Is that democracy?

No, and it’s totally wrong. I also find it a fallacy that "no one denies this"--again a flat statement which both cannot be proven and which HAS been proven incorrect.

I'm... baffled you would say this. It goes against even your own perceived self-interest in having Gore as president as opposed to Bush.

I must conclude that's not what you meant.

Is your statement more about DT's claim that no one denies it?

If the second, it's true to a degree. TPTB would of course deny that the person they selected did not get a majority vote. Whether their honesty can be trusted is another story. (My answer: probably not. The Supreme Court getting involved is a troubling indication of a disturbing amount of intervention going on in election results)

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Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:09 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Here's lots of pics of egypt. Warning, they're all on one page, so it's a massive DL if you have a slow connection.

http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/

Amazing camera work - thx DT. So much better than an aerial image, I can feel their outrage. Mubarak says he won't run in the next election, the equivalent of holding onto the doorframe as they drag you out of office. One crusty, prideful old man. Seeing these photos, I don't think his promise is going to be enough, these people have spent too much energy and risked too much.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, February 1, 2011 12:59 PM

Again...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unseated_members_of_the_United_States_Con
gress

The vote means NOTHING if the powers that be can ignore it at a whim.

Oh, and btw, Dream - dodging your rampant misogyny behind "eugenics" and then fleeing the topic doesn't fool anyone, no more than dodging your complusive urge to cuddle the jackboot behind "social engineering" does...

In fact, imma call it out - either you have some "conditioning" which starts to run away with you when you're under stress, and if so I suspect I got a pretty good idea of the when and where...
OR - you're a hard right zealot trying to weasel word and cover it with oil to make it easier to swallow.

So, which is it ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, February 1, 2011 2:03 PM

Frem: I think DT has a point about being wary of anyone with an agenda about reproduction or anti-reproduction and that is not necessarily misogyny. Every dystopia model I've ever read about first and foremost comes with a loss of reproduction as a controlling device for the population. 1984, Brave New World, Handmaid's Tale, it all fits hand in hand with eugenics.

Like I've said, both sides have a point, I don't know why both sides have to insult each other when we all agree that a third solution is needed and even AGREE on the solution.

If both of you really want to get into this though, I can provide the starting point. AIDs and the WHO. Next, involuntary sterilization of Australian Aboriginals. Maybe we'll work up eventually to Margaret Sanger and her more questionable connections and statements.

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Tuesday, February 1, 2011 5:02 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Joe Klein at Time paraphrases Mubarak:

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/01/mubaraks-message/

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1. A lot of naive but earnest young people are in the streets.
2. Those young people were quickly exploited by political forces (i.e. those who don't adore me).
3. I'm going to investigate those political forces. A lot.
4. Oh, and I almost forgot, I'm not going to run for president again.
5. Did I mention that I was going to investigate those "political" forces who are trying to run me out of town?
6. I am a man of the military--so you should be worried that I'm going to have them shoot you if you don't calm down.
7. Oh, and about those "political" forces: I'm going to spend the last months of my service "investigating" them--I mean, really investigating them, gouging the truth out of them--with extreme prejudice...which should be sufficient time for me to throw them all in jail and maybe torture them.
8. Then again, if it isn't sufficient time to rid our great nation of these horrid pests...well, who knows, a guy can change his mind about not running for president again, can't he?

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/01/mubaraks-message/#ixzz1Clb4
Pmoe

-------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 2:55 AM

Byte, it is because somehow in there, every time someone like me stands *in defense* of women having full control over their own reproductive rights, up to and including things unpleasant or potentially immoral, there he is... IN THE WAY, crying "eugenics", as if I wasn't completely friggin aware both ends of that ridiculous debate have their own dark sides, thank you very much.

And doll, you *know* what happens then.

-F

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 4:27 AM

Frem

You might've missed the topic of eugenics here on the board, seemed damned conclusive to me. Perhaps you were too busy telling us you were the big bad. If you do not oppose eugenics, you do not oppose TPTB, and if you do not oppose TPTB, then we are listening to you *why* exactly?

I actually don't care what people think of me. I'm not looking for followers or lackeys or future ex-mrs dreamtroves. I'm here to learn stuff. If I've learned anything here, it's when to shut up. (ETA: which I'm about to demonstrate I haven't)

Maybe you've started to believe your own propaganda. Maybe your desire to be followed has exceeded your common sense of self preservation. You're acting like alpha monkey who has to beat his chest because a dreamtrove has walked in, and that is somehow a threat. Well, it ain't. This dreamtrove is just passing through, and the only threat I see to you here is the Frem guy who doesn't seem to know when to shut up ;). You might want to see to that. Jes sayin'

So, you want to know if I think feminists can be manipulated by propaganda sold as women's rights? Damn right they can. No one is immune. No one. Everyone can be talked into it. You know my issue, and sure, I've been sold a line of goods on the basis that it was "environmentalism" I rode that global warming train all the way to... Wait, is this one world currency? Uh oh. See. Yes, it can happen, and it can happen to me.

Sometimes you act like the religious right are the only group who was ever sold a bill of goods and Fremdfrima is immune. Like the world is divided into the all knowing and the gullible people in some corner with a dunce cap and their thumb in their mouths, but that just isn't the way it works.

Every once in a while, I see someone in a zombie trance, and I gotta shake them out of it. Every once in a while, that person is me. But don't think that I don't know that people are not going to thank me for shaking them. People are happy in their suicidal delusions, because the propaganda we've all bought all tells us that whatever group we are in is special, and deserves better, and we like to hear that. But I'm not dishing out propaganda, 'cause I got no interest in doing so.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 4:32 AM

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

And doll, you *know* what happens then.

Aw, now this was just priceless.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 4:44 AM

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as if I wasn't completely friggin aware both ends of that ridiculous debate have their own dark sides, thank you very much.

Okay then. Just colour me confused that both of you are fighting about it then if you both see the other point.

DT, same with you, although I see you noticed it yourself too.

Maybe this is an issue you guys need to talk out after all, if only just to remind yourselves that neither of you are the bastard powers that be. Both of you have cared about the girls you've helped out, both of you haven't wanted to see them go down a path that ended in suffering.

We've all got to try to remember that even though we all vary a little in our beliefs here and there, overall, we have the same goal in mind, we're not so different, so we're all potential allies.

We know there's an overarching problem. On this issue DT is focused on just TPTB, but Frem, you want to work for something that to you represents women's rights and polyamory liberation along the way? You go right ahead, it all works out shiny. Ultimately it's okay if we work at cross purposes here and there now and then so long as we keep that goal in mind, and that goal is to take down TPTB and establish a working society in the meanwhile. We all have different ideas on what society we want to see afterward, and that's probably okay too, due to local variations in belief and what we individually can effect locally.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 5:04 AM

It's really very simple, DT.

I stand for women having full control of their own reproductive rights, period.

I do not CARE whether some will misuse this, that them having those rights may be exploited by someone with an agenda, or whether anyone thinks what they do with em is immoral or unethical...
I. DO. NOT.
Do you understand that ?

So when I find myself standing and delivering, and there's you IN THE WAY, howling about how they'll misuse their rights, that this will be exploited, all the while tap-dancing AROUND saying they should be revoked, controlled, guided by YOUR agenda, instead of their own will, insinuating what you don't have the balls to say out loud....

I find that as offensive as saying black people shouldn't own guns cause they'll go mug someone with them, AND I see you as a roadblock and an obstacle to someones natural rights.

Which means I damn well plan to run you the hell over, verbally, psychologically, or what have you.

What women may DO with those rights is immaterial to me, it is that they have them, which is important, in my view of the world, because otherwise we face the horrors of not only the appalling aftermath of every time those rights have not been respected, but of not treating people like human beings - something I will never accept ANY excuse for, whatever.

Who are YOU to think you have some kind of divine fucking right to decry anyone else having, or using natural rights no human being should be without - just because HOW they use em offends you ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 5:35 AM

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all the while tap-dancing AROUND saying they should be revoked, controlled, guided by YOUR agenda, instead of their own will, insinuating what you don't have the balls to say out loud....

That's the thing though. DT has said that he thinks that abortion is an elective surgery and that it falls under the domain of the free market, so he hasn't really been saying "ban them." Yes, he'd prefer no abortions, but under the condition of a community "village raises the child thing," so women who don't want 'em don't have to deal with 'em.

Plus, no one in their right minds would refuse an abortion to someone dying because of blood incompatibility, or if the baby was already dead, or other medical complications. No one in their right minds would refuse one in the case of rape, either, unless they're some jerk that thinks all women are asking for it or something. I'm assuming this is true of DT as well, he's said things in e-mail that incline me to believe he sees it this way, and he can correct me if he wants to when he gets here.

>_> I still like a Non-Fatal Abortion plus incubator idea, I know people don't think it's feasible, but it solves the objections to the issue on all sides.

DT: If TPTB were gone tomorrow, some places (and girls) would still want abortion, and some places (and girls) wouldn't. And that's something we're probably going to have to be okay about.

For example, here in Utah. Most girls don't even want abortion here. Is it because of the Mormon church, yes, is it because they've been conditioned to reject the idea, yes, but it's something they also believe. And if they believe it, I got no right to change that or tell them they should do it a different way, it's up to them to come to their own conclusions whether they want it or not.

One of my friends, she put up a kid for adoption that other girls would probably have aborted under the same conditions. She's happy with her decision. Other girls, who've had abortions, I imagine they've gotten on with their lives. It's not my place to judge.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 6:18 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I stand for women having full control of their own reproductive rights, period.

That's where I stand.

Cause I'm a woman. And I want FULL control of my own reproductive rights. Period.

So regardless of my own religious beliefs or favorite conspiracy theories, it doesn't get more basic than this:

Every person owns his own body. If nothing else in this terrible and cruel world, that is the last line of defense.

-------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 6:45 AM

Eh, maybe I have no right to comment on this issue because it won't ever be an issue for me.

Frem, I do have to say you made a very good point about "even if TPTB exploit it." I mean, that's true for lots of things. Like, for example, guns. People have guns, some people see it as a basic right tied in with self-defense. TPTB will of course then say, "hey, grab your guns, these guys we don't like are a threat" and some people will believe that. But that isn't a good enough reason for me to think we ought to just prevent anyone from having guns.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 6:53 AM

KANEMAN

Seems that government sided mobs are now taking it to the streets and taking it to the protesters.....Arabs are a hilarious bunch. I blame evolution. I can see em now...throwing each others shoes.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 7:27 AM

Meh.

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every time someone like me stands *in defense* of women having full control over their own reproductive rights, up to and including things unpleasant or potentially immoral, there he is... IN THE WAY, crying "eugenics",

This is not really a political debate, it's a bad pickup line.

Me? In the way. Hardly. I recall my response to Niki's question on why anti-abortion, but I hardly ever mention the topic. Lots of people on the board make far more noise than I do. (Okay, John makes way too much noise about it) but still, I'm not suggesting you *should* have gone after Happy, but now you force my hand with this personal attack.

Allow me to break the guy code (allowed under the rules of mutual denigration society, see below.)

This is a lame pick up attempt, known as the put down. I'm not really his opponent, this picture of him as savior of women's rights and me as the perpetual troll in their, the opponent of women.

The purpose of the put down is to raise your perceived relative value, sensitivity in this case, by knocking someone else. This leads to the mutual denigration society, which is why it's not done. In this model, every person in the group puts everyone else down until they all collectively look bad.

I'm a simpleton, I admit it, but this is pretty fucking obvious, and it's hardly the first or twentieth time you've done it, it's just that you decided to do go with a put down on me, and I'm fairly iconoclastic and I'm liable to break the whole game because I just don't care.

I've known a lot of guys who try to divide the world into (guys) and (girls+themselves) and I probably would have ended up on the "anything that anyone says is feminist" bandwagon on that principle except that at a fairly young age I was out with a girl who handed my head to me on this. She said "It's not really anyone's place to tell me what my rights as a woman *should* be." It made me think. Made me think she was right. I think it effects my judgment on other things as well. I don't try to decide things for other people.

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So when I find myself standing and delivering

This phrase was used by 17th century highwaymen in the UK, when holding up stagecoaches - literally 'stop and deliver me of your money'.

I'm sorry, but you really don't want to pursue this one. Put it back in your pants alpha monkey.

Byte,

Are we're *really* going to do this? hijack a perfectly good thread for another pointless debate about abortion?

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 7:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Seems that government sided mobs are now taking it to the streets and taking it to the protesters.....Arabs are a hilarious bunch. I blame evolution. I can see em now...throwing each others shoes.

Kane

The shoe throwing is an homage, and not arab in origin, it started in Africa. The Ethiopian President came to visit a town where there had been a rebellion to try to quell the dissent with some politican sweet talk. Some african villager threw a shoe, or a sandal as it were, not having shoes and all, at the president and beaned him. The result of this was Eritrea became an independent country. The arabs picked this up as a symbolic gesture, like throwing down the gauntlet, a statement of intent to revolt.

Thanks for bringing us back to topic.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 8:01 AM

Insults not good. Situation spiraling, blowing up out of control. Impinging of character on both sides not fair, getting deeply personal for no good reason. Why?

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Are we're *really* going to do this? hijack a perfectly good thread for another pointless debate about abortion?

Yeah, I deserve that. I said the same thing to you a while back.

Here's an on subject discussion. Does anyone think this will spread to Saudi Arabia or the Emirates?

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 8:22 AM

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Here's an on subject discussion. Does anyone think this will spread to Saudi Arabia or the Emirates?

Nah. Sometimes there's a little stirring, and they promise some reforms, but so far it's hit the obvious targets. The other that no one has mentioned is the Sudan, which is another failed democracy, and has fallen apart.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 8:58 AM

Yeah. In the very least, there will be forces and influences doing the best they can to prevent it in Saudi Arabia and the Emirates. Though, interesting, the Emirates seem to have a pretty good track record on human rights, unless I'm missing something.

I also note that because of money oil brings in, I wonder if they can also support a better standard of living, at least for adult males.

Oof, Sudan. On one hand, I'm seriously wondering how it could get any worse, on the other hand part of me knows it damn well could.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 10:04 AM

Yes, you're missing something: Slavery is still legal in the Emirates. The odd thing is that they make a lot of money, oh, and there are very few women. (30% of the UAE is women, and some places it's down to 15%.)

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 10:16 AM

Oh right, I remember something about lots of foreign citizens looking for work, and the government not recognizing citizen rights applying to them, which resulted in indenture. I knew there was SOMETHING.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 11:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yes Byte, my statement was about DT’s remark. I don’t know if those of us who “know” how the election was stolen are in the minority or the majority, but we’re CERTAINLY not “everyone”, and we’re told to shut up about it just as often as those who believe 9/11 was an inside job.

As to your remark about the Supreme Court, I find it interesting that only judges PERCEIVED as liberal (whether actually liberal or not, but merely not who the right WANTS) as “activist” judges, while several judges have been pretty “activist” in declaring the health-care law unconstitutional (yes, it’s a point that needs debating perhaps, but the only ones JUDGING it out of hand as unconstitutional (in my opinion) are Republicans. It’s also the single most ACTIVIST movement on the part of the Supreme Court in my lifetime to decree that businesses are people with the same rights...that one will never cease to blow my mind. If the Supremes declare the health-care law unconstitutional, that will be the second most activist decision in my lifetime.

(It’s a threadjack, but anyone INTELLIGENT want to make guesses on which way Kennedy will jump? It’s pretty much up to him at this point, unless one or the other of the judges goes against their party, which probably won’t happen.)

Gawd, DT, that is a WONDERFUL distillation of what Mubarak is ACTUALLY saying. Impressive, and thank you! So how about distilling (from your point of view) what the US is saying to Mubarak (despite the fact it seems to be changing almost hourly)?

I hope the snarking between Frem and DT calmed down as I wend my way down the thread, but I gotta say a couple of things.

Quote:
I'm here to learn stuff.

is not at all what I’ve observed; from the way you post, DT, it seems far more than you have strong opinions, be they right or wrong, and are here to push them; I can’t recall ever seeing you back up off a point or tell someone they were right and you were wrong.

The subject of eugenics is for another thread, in my opinion. I was responding to your crack about women’s rights being about eugenics-—the memory of which statement still makes me want to spit. I won’t deny there may be/have been some eugenics ideology involved in one respect or another, having to do with one or another issue of women’s rights, but to make a flat generalization like that is just plain...well, there are no words...

Your response to Frem was an inexcusable personal snark, in my opinion. Yeah, Frem threw a couple of snarks at you, but NOTHING like the personal attack you threw back, which disgusts me, especially as it is not your usual tone. Either he got to you or you’ve got something else going on that made you react that way...or, the one I don’t want to envision, you’ve got such a need to be right that you react viscerally.

I don’t view it as conditioning, as Frem does but I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; I think you all too often view things through your own veil, which veil seems to encompass a sense of superiority, as well as “I know everything and am always right” and “TPTB are out to get us in every imaginable way...and some nobody but I can even imagine”. I find that a shame.

Quote:
the propaganda we've all bought all tells us that whatever group we are in is special, and deserves better, and we like to hear that

Dunno where you got that...aside from a few here, I haven’t heard anything like that. I agree with Frem that I also get the impression you

Quote:
tap-dancing AROUND saying they should be revoked

While yes, you said it was elective surgery, it was in the context of saying the government wouldn’t fund abortions, so Byte, we don’t KNOW if DT would agree with abortion in cases of rape or incest. I have a feeling he wouldn’t.

I stand firmly with Frem and CTTS about women’s rights regarding their own body. There is no comparison anywhere to the concept of forcing a woman to carry a child to term, and to return to the days when women like my mother had to go to back allies and risk botched surgery should NEVER happen.

For you to call Frem’s comments

Quote:
The purpose of the put down is to raise your perceived relative value, sensitivity in this case, by knocking someone else.

when you just engaged in FAR more vicious and personal “put-downs” is telling, and abhorrent to me. In my view your remarks are FAR more put-downs than his, and diverged off onto judgments of his character needlessly as well. That you should say

Quote:
This is not really a political debate, it's a bad pickup line.

blows my mind; it shows how you view women and their rights and beliefs, and your consistent reference to eugenics, among other things, and that eugenics is behind people wanting women to have choice, shows a particular bias.

Nobody’s called you a simpleton, nor I believe thinks you are, but you sometimes say things like that, when in reality the way you behave is as if you are the ONLY non-simpleton here and you know and understand things better than anyone else and are here to inform us, little else. It bothers me, because sometimes you make very valid points, when other times you just off half cocked and state things as flatly “just so” in generalizations I find amazing.

Quote:
Put it back in your pants alpha monkey

should be something that comes out of Kane or his ilk, it’s beneath you and chips away at others’ respect for you.

Quote:
The result of this was Eritrea became an independent country.

There’s a prime example; it became a country purely because a guy threw a shoe?? That’s one of the statements I contradict when you make them, partly because you make them so much. As far as I know, at least in Afghanistan, throwing a shoe is a “diss”, it’s a “put down”, a sign of lack of respect, not a challenge.

That’s my opinion on the recent thread-jacking of this thread. Back to the program still in progress...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 11:46 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

In my view and experience, most people prefer security/comfort over freedom: a reasonable living (food, wages), reasonable assurance that their living won't be taken away (crime), reasonable hope for their children's futures (education).

It surprises me that in a group that is always quick to blame everything on the USA that you're the only one to point out the obvious. The Egyptians have lived under Mubarak for years and the idea that they all of a sudden have a irresistible urge for democracy is silly. This uprising is simply a result to the Federal Reserve's Monetary policy that has killed the value of the dollar. Dollar based commodities like oil and grain have risen sharply because of the falling dollar. Americans hardly notice it because we spend so little of our income on food. In other countries it's enough to set off riots as we have seen in the past. Egypt is a big consumer of US wheat so they are especially vulnerable to dollar based commodities. All Mubarak needs to do to end the violence is to subsidize bread prices until the dollar rebounds.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 12:03 PM

Niki

That was CTS's reposting of Klein's takedown of Mubarak, not mine.

Feel free to kibitz my posting, but it does not change why I am here, or that I have no interest in persuading anyone of anything. Why would I? But also, I'll post what I think is relevant. Eugenics is relevant to the topic of abortion, but I'll definitely agree that abortion is not relevant to the topic of Egypt, which is why I keep suggesting scuttling the topic. IMHO, abortion isn't relevant to RWED. Egypt is. So, Egypt onwards.

If you missed the Eritrean sandal incident, you should double check. They put a large statue of it in the capital, bronze I think. I understood the Iraqi shoe throwing to be a reference to this.. Maybe it has an earlier history, but I don't know it.

ETA: There was no blanket statement about women's rights. I said that they are not immune to agenda driven propaganda, no one is. Then I cited an environmentalist example, because that's my issue.

I'm sure that a military industrial complex boy would only have to walk about two feet before finding an excellent example or three for himself.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 1:32 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
I'm a simpleton, I admit it, but this is pretty fucking obvious, and it's hardly the first or twentieth time you've done it, it's just that you decided to do go with a put down on me, and I'm fairly iconoclastic and I'm liable to break the whole game because I just don't care.

But really, wasn't THAT response the exact same thing you accused others of? Putting someone down by building yourself up? "Hey, HE's just trying to get in your pants, whilst *I* am just too cool to care." It's the same thing.

This Space For Rent!

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 2:18 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Seriously girls... for people who know so much about History, or at the very least think they do > FREM and DREAMTROVE < you are sitting in the front seat of an historic event and arguing over who left the toilet seat up or down.
Cairo is quickly devolving into anarchy. I know it's not your anarchy Frem, but I would think it's still an interesting phase to discuss. I wish I could be there on the streets and witness it firsthand.
So far the military is staying out of it, but if this stalemate continues it could spiral further out to where some new charismatic, connected, as yet unknown power-mad character decides to make a play for the whole pot. This is an ancient empire that's up on the auction block, a frantic scramble to try and build a coalition. Can you imagine the back channel conversations?
I'm afraid for the every day Egyptian - they've risked so much but they'll probably end up getting screwed, just by someone new.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 2:30 PM

Pizmo,

Thanks. Agreed.

The military from what I hear is largely sympathetic to the revolution. This is a snag with conscription. The conscripts were just taken out of the people, and so everyone in the revolution knows someone in the military and vice versa. It's hard to get such a military to open fire on the populous.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 2:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Pizmo,

Thanks. Agreed.

The military from what I hear is largely sympathetic to the revolution. This is a snag with conscription. The conscripts were just taken out of the people, and so everyone in the revolution knows someone in the military and vice versa. It's hard to get such a military to open fire on the populous.

Yup. And thanks for saying it, Piz. You are correct. And I include myself in that bickering as well.

I'm rarely here - too much "real world" in my ACTUAL real world right now - but don't think I haven't been paying attention. I'm watching all this with a mix of fascination and trepidation. This is bigger than people realize. It might well be bigger than the fall of the Berlin Wall.

This Space For Rent!

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 3:21 PM

Pizmo is right, it's likely to be hijacked by the NWO, but since it spreads, it may create some interesting new govts. I'm sure TPTB are going to try to push through MEFTA...

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 3:34 PM

Have you seen the impact it's having in the region? Syria, Jordan, Sudan, Gaza - more governments in the area are trying to take steps to ensure that these kinds of things DON'T happen to them - and they seem to be taking POSITIVE steps, not brutally cracking down on dissidents.

The reason I'm nervous about it? Well, Hamas being voted into power was the direct result of Bush's push for free elections in Gaza and the West Bank. You might push reform, but you don't always get the reform you hoped for. Ask the Shah of Iran. ;)

This Space For Rent!

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 6:51 PM

Well, thing is, while as a whole not my kind of Anarchy, a damn lot of the protestors seem to be Muslim Anarchists, something which I thought was contradictory till the local Imam I like messing with so much pointed out that they simply don't accept any authority LESS than Allah lording over them - I just take it the further step and flip the bird to Divinity, too...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_Islam

"You are like a child angry at a neglectful father." - in fact were his exact words, concerning that, although I disagree.

Anyhow, a whole bloody LOT of Muslim Anarchists, who for once see a real chance to impress at least some of their principles upon whatever order forms from the chaos (I think we're all agreed, said dickhead isn't gonna last...) but are for the most part unable to properly describe or articulate them in detail, especially not in such a way as to convince others or incite them to action - cause they've rarely been taken seriously, often due to that very lack.

And therein lies the project which has been keeping me so damn busy in between rounds and shovelling snow - bashing out on paper all of the various philosophy and arguments, and in a fashion all but sure to wind people the hell up and get em movin - then passing it on to the Imam to translate and fax to his friends for further distribution, which I why I said you would see Black Banners fly, soon enough.
Not that I think they'll get much foothold, but it's a start.

And yes, the military appears to be unusually sympathetic, which is a good sign that perhaps the current regime better get on a plane and fuckin lump it, cause no matter how good your palace guard is, they ain't THAT good - ENOUGH people can kill *anybody*.

Oh, and FYI - we're all angry alpha apes, hell-o, that's HOW we built civilization in the first damn place, you think about it - speakin of, the notion of "stand and deliver" is also an in-joke, when the world pushed ME into a corner and told me to stand and deliver, they got something other than they bargained for.
Now quit whining, will you ?
You sound like a kicked puppy, fer cryin out loud.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 7:16 PM

Quote:
Posted by Frem:

nd yes, the military appears to be unusually sympathetic, which is a good sign that perhaps the current regime better get on a plane and fuckin lump it, cause no matter how good your palace guard is, they ain't THAT good - ENOUGH people can kill *anybody*.

It's starting to go tits-up now - U.S. State Department is telling any Americans who want to get out to get to the Cairo airport IMMEDIATELY. Gunfire is erupting (this is Thursday morning) and reports are that tanks are rolling in - but to give COVER to the protesters, according to some reports!

I'm thinking maybe Mubarak and his family might want to get to the airport post-haste.

Quote:

Oh, and FYI - we're all angry alpha apes, hell-o, that's HOW we built civilization in the first damn place, you think about it - speakin of, the notion of "stand and deliver" is also an in-joke, when the world pushed ME into a corner and told me to stand and deliver, they got something other than they bargained for.

Yes, they probably should have been a bit more explicit in WHAT they wanted you to deliver, yes? Little did they know they'd just ordered a large side order of Hell, delivery included!

This Space For Rent!

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 7:26 PM

Quote:

Oh, and FYI - we're all angry alpha apes, hell-o, that's HOW we built civilization in the first damn place, you think about it -

This worked out better than I thought, I thought for sure you were going to skewer one of us.

The only way this gets better is with the virtual equivalent of everyone buying each other a round of beers and some backslapping over a good verbal brawl.

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Wednesday, February 2, 2011 9:50 PM

Drinks on me

Careful there.
Need to be able to find your homepage.

I think I'll dodge the snarks and reserve my return fire for Mubarak:

He doesn't need to hop on a

, he can get to his native

from

.

ETA:

it's

here. We're under many feet.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 3:06 AM

DT, we're under threat of snow here - 50% chance, which is really huge for this area. And it's all from the same weather system. My wife's cousing in Phoenix is under freeze warning as well. That's a pretty big storm system, when it stretches from Arizona to upstate New York!

I actually got a day off from work yesterday, because we had no power. The city was instituting rolling outages because (and this is where it gets silly) of power shortages in other parts of the state. They insisted that WE didn't have any shortage of power in Austin, but that state law REQUIRES them to institute such rolling outages when other parts of the state have shortages. So it's not like they're actually shunting power from my workplace to send it across to Lubbock or El Paso; it's more like they're just giving "sympathy blackouts" to us so we can share the pain of those in harder-hit areas. Go figure...

Anytho', power would come on for 5-10 minutes tops, then cut off again for 45 minutes to 2 hours. It made trying to fire up the servers and printers an exercise in futility, so we called it a day and took some much-needed time off. Everybody's cranky about the new merge (too many chiefs, not enough Indians, as they say), so a day off might be just what was needed.

Power's back on today, and I never lost power at home, so we're back to it and hopefully will get caught up by sometime late Saturday night!

Stay warm, stay safe. That goes for everybody.

Oh, and make mine a Guinness. Good hearty beer for the cold weather...

This Space For Rent!

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 3:36 AM

Mike

That's one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

Have a few

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 8:14 AM

CITIZEN

Well I had a fairly long post describing how Iran was a democracy, it's just further behind the curve than current western democracies, somewhere around Western Democracies between the late 19th century and the civil rights marches.

Still the forum stopped me posting those the other day, and now the thread seems to have taken a different turn. Still I just broke up with my girlfriend so who's pants am I supposed to be trying to get into?

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 8:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike

That's one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

Have a few

Tell me about it. They were explaining it on the news, and the words that came out of my mouth were:

"This must be what going mad feels like..."

This Space For Rent!

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 10:23 AM