WULF'S IDEAS ON FREEDOM AND CHANGE: SNARK FREE ZONE by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

WULF'S IDEAS ON FREEDOM AND CHANGE: SNARK FREE ZONE

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 13:40
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Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:44 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sorry about the split, Frem. I sure hope that it heals up 100% properly, and permanently too.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 3:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Been awhile since I saw OJW, so I watched the clip.

Didja notice, Frem, that the choice of life or death was made by two people, but the choice was made for everyone: warriors, women, and children? Where is their freedom to decide their fate?

My friend with PTSD, he has a double-dose: not only did he grow up with a psychotic abusive dad, he also lived through a war when he was about 8. He never sits with his back to the door. He trusts very few people. For the few he trusts, loyalty is everything. He depends on being physically fit. Every thought that he has revolves around danger and potential danger. Being a big guy, he likes to stand up and puff up to end discussions that aren't going his way. And he's smart. Very smart. But most importantly, he believes that he is smarter and knows more than anyone, because he has seen things, and done things, that nobody else that he knows has seen and done. He constantly validates his behavior with that rationalization: "You don't know. Nobody could know how bad it can get. And because of how bad it CAN get, I'm gonna act like its that bad ALL THE TIME"

I'm going to compare him to my dad, who grew up on a farm in Poland. By his account, his childhood was almost idyllic: he talked about growing lupine n on a sandy river-bank to improve the soil, racing the plow-horse (he broke his nose), drying the plums to prunes for the winter, being the local chess champion, and going away to the city for his PhD. He was within two weeks of his degree when the Germans invaded. After that, it was capture by the Russians, a Ukraine tin mine, a Siberian labor camp, repatriation, walking out of Siberia through Iran, making his way to England to join the commandos, and being dropped into Poland as a provocateur. Despite the fact that he had "done more and seen more", he didn't CLING to it, didn't use it as an excuse to continue behavior that was no longer appropriate for the circumstances. He wasn't mad-dog crazy during, and he wasn't mad-dog crazy afterwards.

ETA: I guess what I'm saying is: I'm glad you found a behavior that works for you. But mad-dog crazy, balls-to-the-wall aggression doesn't work for everyone. More importantly, it isn't ETA ALWAYS necessary, and it tends to cramp other people's freedoms.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 4:14 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Actually Sig, thank you.

This has given me a lot to think about.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 6:48 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, sheet--I'm late, and I started replying to this after reading your post and being struck by the following. But I see others got there first. I'll say my piece nonetheless, despite being repetitive of what they say.

Wulf, I reject your entire theory about anger and rage. Yes, anger can be motivating; that is ALL I will agree to. Anger is 99% destructive, with absolutely no good result.

Quote:
You know the answer to raised voices, and threatening gestures?

WALK AWAY!

The problem is that all the scenarios you present are dramatic: someone going after you with a gun, etc. Life isn't like that--it's not all The Patriot and 300. Or maybe it is in your life, but not in most lives. And in most lives, the way to deal with confrontation is to either try to work it out, or absent oneself. Reason when tempers are hot is impossible, the hot-tempered person is caught up in their emotions. You can try to talk to them, but better to let them run off at the mouth until they run out of steam WITHOUT hollering back, then talk softly, or if it isn't possible, LEAVE. Maybe try talking to them when they're not emotional, but escalating it just proves who can yell/hit louder/harder, it doesn't change anyone's mind, it doesn't do ANYTHING, actually, except let one person feel like they "won"...when actually they didn't. 99% of the time, that is the situation...not three-on-one with knives.

So somehow you seem to translate YOUR view of life into government, into how to deal with everything, and A)I think it alienates people because it's all black-and-white and all aggressive, and B) It doesn't WORK, in most of everyday interaction.

Even in her fevered state, bleeding and with her own bent toward aggressively dealing with things, Frem's got it better than you:

Quote:
but also, did not josey also know when negotiation was the better solution, life to life ?

And Sig NAILED it with her story; despite whatever our background, our humanity is measured by how we try to deal with one another, and

Quote:
But mad-dog crazy, balls-to-the-wall aggression doesn't work for everyone. More importantly, it isn't necessary

and I would add it doesn't work for everyTHING. In fact MOST things.

Yeah, I'm buddhist, so I'm a pacifist, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't and haven't defended myself (even physically) when necessary. But something happened one day that brought it all home to ME and changed me forever.

At the dog park, a woman left her golden retriever leash in her little girl's hands so she could go into the porta-pottie. As I approached, the dog saw my dog, wanted to say hi and lunged forward--of course pulling the child off her feet and she cried.

The woman came out of the porta potty and immediately went after ME, yelling at me about controlling my dog, etc. while she picked up her daughter.

Now, I'd done nothing wrong, nor had my dog. It was an off-leash dog park. SHE'd been wrong to leave her daughter holding the leash. But she needed to lash out in her fear and emotions; couldn't blame the kid, it was her fault and besides, her daughter was hurt.

For the first time in my life I SAW this, and realized her anger had nothing to do with me really, it was an expression of her emotions of fear AND GUILT. Realizing it was impossible to reason with her in her emotional state, I called my dog and walked away.

How did that harm me? I didn't "win" the yelling contest, didn't "prove" I was right; I DIDN'T HAVE TO. Yelling back at her would only escalate the situation and have done nobody any good at all, and I'd have left shaken and angry myself.

Basically; I reject your solutions to thing that are always aggressive, I believe thinking that way does you no good, nor does it anyone else. In most of our lives, we don't confront danger every day, nor even frequently. Why live like danger is around every corner and get aggressive every time someone else gets aggressive? What, precisely, is gained by it, I would like to know? That mentality leads to trying to control others; and as she said, inhibiting others' freedoms when you try to FORCE them to be what you want.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Friday, September 18, 2009 7:52 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Niki, in that case... yes, just walking away from the situation is fine...

But you can't always do that.

And sometimes, even if you can... walking away looks like weakness and will come back to get you later on.

But, I digress.

We should get back to talking about what we can do to make things better.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 8:27 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

They ARE talking about how to make things better.

You are saying: GUNS ! REVOLT ! EVERYONE HAS MY KIND OF FREEDOM ! OR ELSE !

They are saying: and how exactly are you not forcing people with violence and doing exactly what you claim to be against ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 8:37 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Forcing people to register, to receive some for of subsidized, government sponsored, health care... is NOT making things better.

Its making them worse.

Hell, you know what? If the government wants to run an insurance plan of its own, without my tax dollars (using the gaps in Medicare... so they say) whatever. Let them freely compete with the private sector, without using my money to do it.

It would drive costs down, as private insurance would have to try and compete.

Good, insurance costs would drop.

But don't you DARE tell me that I have to register my life, and my health, to the government.

Never in this life.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 9:59 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Im sorry. But there is no compromise on this.

There are no pacts between wolves and men.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:01 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Forcing people to register, to receive some for of subsidized, government sponsored, health care... is NOT making things better."

And what if, overall, people chose this ? Are you going DEMAND that THEY live your brand of freedom ? Or will you 'let' them be free enough to decide ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:10 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I would argue that "We the People" have been hoodwinked.

Should this go thru, I will tell my tax-preparer that I refuse to pay for it.

I will NOT give my money for it. If it takes not paying any taxes at all, so be it.

I'm even drafting a letter to the I.R.S. stating WHY I will not pay for this.

OTHER than an armed conflict, what else can I do?

ETA: It really bugs me that I cannot choose, each and every paycheck, to pay. Its just automatically taken.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:25 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

As I recall, you are one of the few posters who use the word 'sheeple' to describe those you don't agree with.

That says more about you than it does about everyone else, or freedom, or anything else discussed here.

Personally, I think I am more correct in what I think than others are. I think many, perhaps most, are misguided. For example, I think the Aztecs were pretty silly to put up with what the ruler/ priests did. And I think most people are pretty silly to put up with slaving away for their entire lives to make a few people unthinkably wealthy. To that end, I will argue and try to convince others of my ideas. But I wouldn't deny that they have a right to choose, nor would I say that society has no RIGHT to determine its form. In fact, that is the ONLY function of society. And until enough people want things to be different, until there is not enough internal support for this society to function in it's usual form, it WILL be the society most people think they want. It WILL be a free choice.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:25 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

And Rue, I doubt people want their medical history in the hands of the government.

People are FOR this now... because, as Niki put it "the pendulum" has swung their way.

Well, would you want this when BUSH was in charge?

Would you want the FBI, the CIA, and all the rest having access to your records?

Choosing YOUR healthcare?

I can see why the fringes call Obama a Nazi. Under National Socialism, the state would choose the care you received.

Which means that people like Steven Hawking would never have lived past being a teenager. He would have died a twitchy bastard, wishing he could scream about the cosmos.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:27 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"And Rue, I doubt people want their medical history in the hands of the government."

It already is. I just don't want it in the hands of business.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

***************************************************************

ETA: "Which means that people like Steven Hawking would never have lived past being a teenager."

Actually, Hawking went on record saying that it was BECAUSE of government healthcare that he got to live as long as he did.

"In fact, Professor Hawking lives in England, where he has been treated by their National Health Service. And by his own account, it saved his life.

'I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS,' he told The Guardian. 'I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.'"

You would have better argument if you didn't base it on lies.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:29 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"It already is. I just don't want it in the hands of business."

Then what are you doing to stop it?

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:32 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Everything in my legal power.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:38 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Rue, it might surprise you..

I was one of the people who helped digitize medical records.

I bought into the whole idea of being able to send med records from one side of the country to the other.

For example: You are in a car accident in California, but your Med records are in NY. With a few clicks, your record could be in the surgeons hands in a few seconds...

I even answered to the C.O.O. of the company that built the whole infrastructure.

But guess what I found out, and why I eventually quit?

They used it against people.

Btw... and since Im outside of my "shall not reveal" contract..

Cheaney has OCD.... the guy can't stop washing his hands. Guess how I found that out?

Heart surgery anyone?

There are no pacts between wolves and men.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:39 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Rue, it might surprise you..

I was one of the people who helped digitize medical records.

I bought into the whole idea of being able to send med records from one side of the country to the other.

For example: You are in a car accident in California, but your Med records are in NY. With a few clicks, your record could be in the surgeons hands in a few seconds...

I even answered to the C.O.O. of the company that built the whole infrastructure.

But guess what I found out, and why I eventually quit?

They used it against people.

Btw... and since Im outside of my "shall not reveal" contract..

Cheaney has OCD.... the guy can't stop washing his hands. Guess how I found that out?

Heart surgery anyone?

There are no pacts between wolves and men.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:41 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Btw, does anyone know why these stupid double posts happen?

There are no pacts between wolves and men.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:47 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

..... and the celebs who had plastic surgery... HSS sssssssss

There are no pacts between wolves and men.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 10:52 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"You would have better argument if you didn't base it on lies."

Unlike you Rue, I don't base my positions on lies or propaganda. I don't WANT to influence the populace.

I trust in the intelligence of people. Especially here, in my homeland.

Try again.

There are no pacts between wolves and men.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 11:08 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Waiting on Rue...

I dont post over the weekend. I dont have the time for it, sorry.

There are no pacts between wolves and men.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 11:38 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

What are you waiting on me for ?

The lie that you swallowed and spewed back out about Hawking without even bothering to check was, in fact, a lie.

As for digitized medical records - I consider that having my information 'owned' by business. I am against that, too. Which puts me at odds with Obama. Again.

Fancy that.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 12:15 PM

Quote:
Didja notice, Frem, that the choice of life or death was made by two people, but the choice was made for everyone: warriors, women, and children? Where is their freedom to decide their fate?

The homesteaders and the townies sent Josie to represent them, as I recall - while it wasn't a ballots and boxes election, I do very much recall it being mutual consensus that he had the best chance of resolving the matter one way or the other.

Ten bears, on the other side, was chief of his tribe, which means his people had selected or agreed to his representing their case as well, way I saw it.

Quote:
ETA: I guess what I'm saying is: I'm glad you found a behavior that works for you. But mad-dog crazy, balls-to-the-wall aggression doesn't work for everyone. More importantly, it isn't ETA ALWAYS necessary, and it tends to cramp other people's freedoms.

I really, really, really wish folk would stop ignoring all I say and duct-taping strawman opinions overtop it, goddamn it I happen be to the one always sayin try reason first and here you are again not only ignoring that, but flaming me for a behavior i don't even subscribe to cause your argument doesn't work elsewise.

look, when you've tried every other avenue and you're backed in a corner, sure, theres a time for such outright savagery, and it has on occasion saved my life - to say there's NEVER a need for it is as insane as to state there's ALWAYS a need for it, it is this complete denial of some of the unfortunate realities which causes the mental breakage which leads to PTSD, cause folks have so much trouble letting go once their fondly held illusions of safety and mere words on paper protecting them from such get crushed.

I've no illusion that my spare tire will prevent a flat, or that my fire extinguisher will prevent a fire, not even any that my pistol is an kind of guarantee of my safety - I simply happen to prepare such as is reasonable for the unfortunate eventualities of life, and first and foremost when something goes wrong, I use my wits backed up by whatever tools I have to resolve the problem, more often than not before it even blooms *into* something that's gonna get violent cause I usually happen to be payin attention to my surroundings, and not buried in some illusion laws and social rules are some kind of magic wand, ok ?

And having explained that at least twentysome times in explicit detail, happen to be very annoyed when once again you spin that into some outright lie to try and paint me as a rabid maniac simply because it suits whatever agenda you're pushing, doubly so because given a choice I too would prefer a society built on peace and mutual cooperation - but you cannot ram that down someones throat on a bayonet, and having the government do it for you is NO different than doin it yourself, in fact it's even more reprehensible because you're denying responsibility by not placing your own hands on the blade.

Far as this healthcare mess is concerned, I done stated I consider it infrastructure and we oughta just nationalise it and be done, fuck the corpies and fuck the insurance companies, and I don't rightly give a fuck whether folks scream socialism or not - compared to the amount of resources we waste on the alphabet goons, stupid pointless wars and political chicanery, universal healthcare is damned cheap, especially if we came at drug addiction as a purely medical issue rather than a criminal one, and as such cut big pharma and the alphabet boys off at the knees by not playin ball with the "war on (some) drugs" no more.

i had more to say but the fevers pickin up again and i cannot remember - it might occur to folk also *why* i happen to be doing patchwork with drugstore supplies on injuries and sickness of such a crippling degree right now.

-f

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Friday, September 18, 2009 12:25 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

HEYA!

SNARK FREE ZONE HERE!!!!!!!!!

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Friday, September 18, 2009 12:29 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I guess what I'm saying is: I'm glad you found a behavior that works for you. But mad-dog crazy, balls-to-the-wall aggression doesn't work for everyone. More importantly, it isn't ETA ALWAYS necessary, and it tends to cramp other people's freedoms.

Oh, this wasn't for you Frem, it was for Wulf, bc his agresso-meter seems to be pegged waaay off at one end. I agree, there are times when aggression is the best response, but those are (generally) few and far between.

Wish I was there... I'm a pretty good house-medic. I do OK with OTC stuff, bandaging and so forth. But at a distance, all I can do is give you a virtual hug.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 1:04 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

But don't you DARE tell me that I have to register my life, and my health, to the government.

Never in this life.

You lie. You've already registered your "life" - you have a Social Security Number, right?

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Friday, September 18, 2009 1:06 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Im sorry. But there is no compromise on this.

There are no pacts between wolves and men.

Bullshit. You're nothing BUT compromise, Wulfie. You talk a lot, you talk a big game, but when it comes down to it, you meekly comply and do as you're told. And you'll continue to do so.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 1:12 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
And Rue, I doubt people want their medical history in the hands of the government.

People are FOR this now... because, as Niki put it "the pendulum" has swung their way.

Well, would you want this when BUSH was in charge?

Would you want the FBI, the CIA, and all the rest having access to your records?

Choosing YOUR healthcare?

I can see why the fringes call Obama a Nazi. Under National Socialism, the state would choose the care you received.

Which means that people like Steven Hawking would never have lived past being a teenager. He would have died a twitchy bastard, wishing he could scream about the cosmos.

Wulfie, PLEASE tell me that you aren't STILL this fucking stupid! You're actually buying that ridiculous Steven Hawking bullshit? IT WAS RETRACTED! You know why? BECAUSE HAWKING IS ENGLISH, AND HAS LIVED HIS ENTIRE LIFE UNDER THE BRITISH NATIONAL HEALTH SYSTEM! That same "socialist" system you claim would have let him die a twitchy teenager, is the system that has kept him alive until now. In AMERICA, he'd have died a long, long time ago, and you'd have never even heard of him.

Also, do you honestly think the government DOESN'T have access to your medical records? Really?

Dude, you seriously need to wake up and quit listening to the idiots you're hanging out with.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 1:14 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"You would have better argument if you didn't base it on lies."

Unlike you Rue, I don't base my positions on lies or propaganda. I don't WANT to influence the populace.

I trust in the intelligence of people. Especially here, in my homeland.

Try again.

There are no pacts between wolves and men.

And yet you still can't help but buy into the whole Hawking thing... Says quite a bit about you and "intelligence", huh?

And if you're NOT trying to influence anyone, why the hell are you even posting all this crap, tossing out the endless shitty movie clips, etc.?

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Friday, September 18, 2009 1:42 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
People are FOR this now... because, as Niki put it "the pendulum" has swung their way.

No, Wulf, I said the pendulum has swung, which means from right to more left. That really has nothing to do with healthcare except that with the left in power and the situation the way it is, there's a chance of dealing with it. With the right in power, there was not.

The issue of healthcare has been going on for decades, and it has gotten worse and worse steadily. That people are now recognizing the dire straits we are in with our form of health insurance (which it really isn't...it doesn't insure our health, and it doesn't insure that they will pay for whatever treatment we need to protect/repair our health!).

The difference is that the Republican Party, by their own words, has wanted to privatize the only government healthcare we HAVE (Medicare) since Reagan, along with privatizing social security. The vast majority of them don't need either, they can afford to pay for it, so to hell with the rest of us.

Now we have a chance...a slim one and getting slimmer...of actually SOLVING the problem we've been ripped off by for many, many years.

Quote:
Choosing YOUR healthcare?

Prop-a-gan-da, Wulf. Nobody says they're going to choose. They'd be giving US a choice, for the first time. Right now we have no choice; our insurance companies decide what doctors we see, what treatment we receive, what tests are run, merely by the fact that if we don't accept what they tell us, we can't afford to pay for it ourselves. And then they make us pay for the privilege of THEM deciding what we can and can't have in healthcare.

Good gawd, Hawkings! That laughable one was debunked ages ago, did you not know that? It was a huge joke when the idjit said it, because he was speaking of British Healthcare being so bad and we shouldn't have the same thing. When Hawkings spoke up and said it was the British healthcare service that had given him such good care and made his life possible, the fool who made the statement in the first place looked about as stupid as anyone could. How did you miss that?

There it is, right there: You make a flat statement, a piece of propaganda which they tried to feed to the masses to get them to believe what they wanted; it was debunked; the truth showed it to be a lie; and here you are months later stating it as a TRUTH! Wow...

Quote:
can see why the fringes call Obama a Nazi. Under National Socialism, the state would choose the care you received.

Again, crap served up to you on a plate which you bought whole cloth. First off, we don't have National Socialism (I'm not even sure you know what that MEANS) because of Obama, that's not what he wants or is trying to bring about. Second, even if we had the Public Option, the state wouldn't be choosing what care we receive, they'd be giving us a CHOICE between letting the for-profit companies decide what care we receive and letting the government decide. Either way, unless we're among the uber-rich who can afford neither (are there any THAT rich?), we can only choose between the two. Right now, we don't even have THAT much choice, it's the for-profit guys running the whole show.

Quote:
Unlike you Rue, I don't base my positions on lies or propaganda. I don't WANT to influence the populace.

Yet you just did: twice. Hawkings and the government "choosing" for us. Both false..

Quote:
I trust in the intelligence of people

Oh, heavens, no you DON'T! You spout propaganda fed to the pawns of those backing the insurance companies, and condescend to people who think differently than you do, and you make flat-out statements of what "IS" or should be and ram them down everyone's throats! To say you trust the intelligence of people; then why do you spout things like saying we'd spit on soldiers?

By the way, there was a "pact" between wolves and men; it's called domesticated dogs. Wolves came to join US around the campfire, remember?

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Friday, September 18, 2009 1:53 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Even though the topic has drifted, is it too much to ask for a continuation of snark-free posting?

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Friday, September 18, 2009 1:53 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

By the way, there was a "pact" between wolves and men; it's called domesticated dogs. Wolves came to join US around the campfire, remember?

Oh, Christ - I didn't even think of that! That is just freaking AWESOME.

Best. Comeback. EVAR!

Niki wins "teh internets" today.

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Friday, September 18, 2009 2:31 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Even though the topic has drifted, is it too much to ask for a continuation of snark-free posting?

The snarky part of me wants to say that ship has sailed...

...but okay. I'll *try*. That's all I can promise.

But really, if Wulf isn't going to try to be serious, why should the rest of us?

Dang. Did it again, didn't I? Boy, is MY face red...

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Friday, September 18, 2009 5:15 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Maybe Wulf will come back and explain what he really means. But I'm getting the feeling that by 'freedom' Wulf means 'no government', not 'freedom to DECIDE how much or little government you might want, and what you might want of it.'

Because, it seems, he KNOWS what kind of freedom people should have ! No matter WHAT they want. And he intends for them to have it --- his way.

BTW Wulf - I was coding a VERY large hospital LIMS in assembly and machine before you were even born. The whole bugaboo about preventing electronic patient information - well, you're about 30 years too late. Now, if you want to discuss how it might be made useful and private, and kept out of business hands, we might have a fruitful discussion. But it's a little bit late to to lock to barn door. The horse was stolen, bred, died, and turned into glue a long time ago.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I know the topic has drifted, but I'm a big believer ins Go with the flow

WULF, not trying be snarky here, but... you made a BIG boo-boo with the Hawking thing! I checked through this thread just to verify that you did, indeed, bring up something that was thoroughly debunked two months ago.

And I can't help comparing it to YOUR response to
45,000 Die From Lack of Insurance. Capitalism Wins. YAAAAY!!!

Quote:
Uh-huh.... and Im sure CNN would have run this story even if the current President didn't want his bill to go thru so badly...

www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=39982&m=730129#730129
In ONE case, you swallowed a breathtakingly ridiculous statement whole and regurgitated it here, and in the other case you refused to even consider something that could be quite credible, and is definitely verifiable.

I have a couple of words of advice, if you don't mind:

1) Whatever source you got that Stephen Hawking statement from...? I would eliminate it out of hand for being egregiously stupid, if nothing else.

2) Fact checking. Apply it to your sources, whether you agree with them or not.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 5:30 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok, the whole National Socialistic thing was a bit off...

But there IS a reason folks do NOT want to socialize (i.e. turn over handling and responsibility) anything to the government.

Its in the same vein as to why people don't want to do hand over that much power to corporations.

Its too easy to abuse the power.

And it WILL be abused.

Rue and I agree on much when it comes to corporations. Look at Enron and the rest. But you have to see that the government is just LIKE this huge corporation.

But with laws, and a military to back it up.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 7:01 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

And, in answer to some...

No. I do not believe that my ideas of freedom should be forced on people.

Just that I'm right.

Which is my prerogative to believe.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 7:09 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Damn... people are quiet today.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 7:53 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

Its in the same vein as to why people don't want to do hand over that much power to corporations.

Its too easy to abuse the power.

And it WILL be abused.

Rue and I agree on much when it comes to corporations. Look at Enron and the rest. But you have to see that the government is just LIKE this huge corporation.

Coupla things...

1) Too easy to abuse the power, and it WILL be abused. Couldn't I use this exact same argument to bolster an argument about why people shouldn't be allowed to have guns? I mean, that power IS abused, right? And your take is that power should never be given to anyone who might abuse it, so... Ummmmm... Yeah. I don't think you quite followed your thought train out of the station there, Wulfie.

2) Did you just use the argument that government is like a corporation? So government is in it for profit? Really? Wow - I guess all that crap about "government waste and inefficiency" can go right in the dumpster then, eh?

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Monday, September 21, 2009 8:01 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

The whole point is that you HAVE to leave the people to be free. Because, even tho most people are stupid, of the billions of us out there, one can be a hero.

"Did you just use the argument that government is like a corporation? So government is in it for profit? Really? Wow - I guess all that crap about "government waste and inefficiency" can go right in the dumpster then, eh"

No, I said they were both the same.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 8:24 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

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Monday, September 21, 2009 8:41 AM

Quote:
2) Did you just use the argument that government is like a corporation? So government is in it for profit? Really? Wow - I guess all that crap about "government waste and inefficiency" can go right in the dumpster then, eh?

Well, almost. The waste and inefficiency is designed to be profitable for the people abusing it. It's how they can justify "spending" $500 dollars for a $5 dollar toilet seat. Every single one of us knows full well that someone just pocketed the extra $495.

It's a point about the government abusing power and people with guns abusing power.

In general, however, I tend to be less concerned about one crazy guy with a gun and more concerned about entire organizations armed with guns. That's not about self-defense, that's about force.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:18 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Does anyone else feel like this is the new coffeehouse?

The same sort of place where our forefathers planned their revolution?

Maybe Im a dreamer, heh, but Im not the only one.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:51 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Because, even tho most people are stupid, of the billions of us out there, one can be a hero."

Wow. Just --- wow. And not in a good way.

I think many people are misguided. I think they need education. I think they need a larger perspective and a deep-down core knowledge that life can be truly better. But I would never, ever claim that I, or rather one nameless individual hero, can decide FOR them what is right.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:56 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Never said that I was that Hero.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 9:58 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

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Monday, September 21, 2009 10:05 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Never said that I was that Hero."

No, but you claim that there is such a righteous thing. One against the faceless less-than-humans.

You know who is a REAL hero ? Gandhi. Though he weasled out in the end with the creation of Pakistan, he was able to engage the minds and souls of millions with a new dream. He didn't go against 'them', or around 'them', or through 'them'. He invited people, and together they went on a journey.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 10:08 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ever seen India now?

Ghandi was a great man. Never going to argue that.

"You claim that there is such a righteous thing. One against the faceless less-than-humans."

Yes. I do.

Without remorse, I do.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 10:18 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And, as I have pointed out in other places, there is a reason to make structural changes first and allow human nature to follow later. Because the lessons learned by individuals, no matter how valuable, tend to die with them.

But if you are looking to see how individuals can create change, Gandhi is a great example. And no violence was needed.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 10:37 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

You don't know your history then.

Violence was needed. Just because he didn't meet violence WITH violence... this made him memorable.

But look at India now. Broken and unsure.

He died before he could finish things.

But here, in our homeland... laying down to those in power. Well, hell, that isn't in our national spirit.

We are first, and so far only, in that we never bend our knees to those in power. We refuse to bow, because it is not in our nature.

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