my platform as presidential candidate

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

True. There is a place for "chores" in the human psyche. People can also take up carding, spinning, weaving ... weeding, hoeing... hammering, planing ... knitting, sewing, cooking, sweeping ... whenever they want. The shouldn't be FORCED to work at maximal effort (whether intellectual or physical) all day, every day.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, June 29, 2019 5:10 AM

rezident owtsidr

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, given that automation is a choice and not an inevitability

It iz not.

A manufacturer will looz the cost game wen hiz competitorz swich to automation and droidz.

I xink the only human production that haz a chans in the future will be art and niche products that benefit from 'hand crafted' az a selling point.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com .

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Saturday, June 29, 2019 6:18 AM

China being an alternative to automation isn't going to last forever. The reason they do it is because, at least for quite some time now, the money they were getting paid which was literally pennies on the dollar of what the same labor in the US would cost was enough to at least get by on. That is going to change, and in many ways already has. For example, it looks as though it's nearly just as expensive in 2019 to go see a movie in China as it is in the US. (See my posts in the Captain Marvel thread in the cinema forum to see actual currency conversion figures to back that up). Though their small theaters cost far less than their mega-plexes, the same could also be said of ours. I saw Shazam the Thursday after it opened with my dad and bro where his section 8 housing is and the theater charges $5. $8 if you want pop and popcorn with it.

We're nearly at an end of 3rd world countries that we can exploit for production on this planet. Unless we want to find ourselves paying $200 for a t-shirt at walmart, companies who haven't started making a hard transition toward automation are going to need to start.

And as JO said, all it takes is one company to do it and it's over.
Those that refuse on moral principal will die. Those that refuse because they can't afford to will die.

Between 2000 and 2010, 87% of lost jobs were lost to automation, not trade to other countries such as China or Mexico.

https://money.cnn.com/2017/01/30/news/economy/jobs-china-mexico-automa
tion/

One can only imagine that when the studies come out for 2010 to 2020 that the percentage will remain roughly the same, although the actual number will have increased substantially.

I was pretty pissed to lose my job to low cost labor in India 10 years ago. But to be honest, in 2019 I doubt that any less than 80% of it can't be done automatically today. As it was, I would joke that my job was basically to babysit computers. Besides from a few nightly important tasks that could not yet be handled by automation, my job was mainly to be there in case shit ever hit the fan, as well as monitoring things in real time while also surfing the net and bullshiting with others in the room who were essentially doing the same thing to different parts for 12 hours a night without falling asleep.

I could probably count on my fingers and toes the actual amount of times I had to buckle down and have serious work fixing things, organizing conference calls with high-level customer contacts at 3AM or anything else out of the ordinary. I always performed those tasks excellently and proved my value on quite a few occasion. And being in the market that we were in, we were charging these huge clients a TON of money for our services that allowed babysitters like me to exist in the first place, but I really can't imagine that in 2019 they'd ever have to pay somebody to do what I used to do.

Even if my job had never been shipped to India in the first place, it would have already been eliminated and if I hadn't already been doing something else in the company with more longevity I'd still find myself in the position of being without a job or college degree in 2019 with nearly zero prospects of ever coming close to being able to make what I used to make.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, June 29, 2019 12:00 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:

So, given that automation is a choice and not an inevitability - SIGNY

It iz not.
A manufacturer will looz the cost game wen hiz competitorz swich to automation and droidz.
I xink the only human production that haz a chans in the future will be art and niche products that benefit from 'hand crafted' az a selling point. JO

JO, I just want to bang my head against a wall in frustration.

Why are so many nations in a race to the bottom of the barrel? It's because they have CHOSEN to compete in the world for market share. Just like automation is a choice, competing in the world market is ALSO a choice. There are nations that have chosen not to compete but to have a mostly self-sufficient economy, and Russia is one. For most of its existence, the USA was another ...throughout MOST of its history, the USA has had tariffs n imported manufactured goods ...

Quote:
The tariff history of the United States spans from 1789 to present. The first tariff law passed by the U.S. Congress, acting under the then-recently ratified Constitution, was the Tariff of 1789. Its purpose was to generate revenue for the federal government (to run the government and to pay the interest on its debt), and also to act as a protective barrier around newly starting domestic industries.[1] An Import tax set by tariff rates was collected by treasury agents before goods could be unloaded at U.S. ports.

Tariffs have historically served a key role in the nation's foreign trade policy and as a source of federal income. Tariffs were the greatest (approaching 95% at times) source of federal revenue until the Federal income tax began after 1913. For well over a century the federal government was largely financed by tariffs averaging about 20% on foreign imports.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history

Competing in the world market is UNSUSTAINABLE. It sets off a chain of events that inevitably impoverishes more and more and more people, leading to a succession of GLOBAL busts.

Look at a mostly self-reliant economy as a foray into sustainability.

Your economy will stand or fall depending on how well you manage your resources, labor, and investments. Can your economy continue without depending on robbing other nations of their labor or resources? Can your economy continue without squeezing human beings out of it, and causing revolution? It makes sense if you're resource-rich and have few people, but if you're resource-poor and have a lot of people, well... then you need to make use of those people.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, June 29, 2019 1:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

JO, Jack ... you've arrived at what I call the basic internal contradiction of capitalism.

Profit is the difference between the value (wage) of the work used to make a good, and the price it's sold at. So the person who builds a Mercedes can only afford a Kia, the person who builds a Kia can only afford a Honda scooter, the person who builds a Honda scooter can only afford a bicycle, the person who builds the bicycle can only afford shoes, and the person who makes the shoes goes barefoot. But it doesn't happen just once. EVERY time the circle cranks around - for food, for water, for clothes, for anything, profit gets sucked up out of the economy into the coffers, potentially until no money is left.

And the 'capitalists' aren't content with -a- profit. The goal is to continually MAXIMIZE profit by paying less and less in wages.

Until you get to automation, where the person who builds nothing can't afford to live.

THIS ISN'T A NEW IDEA. Economists over a hundred years ago were trying to come up with schemes to keep this obviously dead-ended system going. I've referenced them elsewhere, if you want I'll take the time to re-reference them here.

You're stuck on capitalism.

But it's not a natural law, like gravity. As Signy keeps pointing out, IT'S A HUMAN-BUILT SYSTEM - A CHOICE.

Try to take your thoughts out of that choice, or you will keep hitting the same dead end you've been hitting, that economists hit over a century ago.

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Saturday, June 29, 2019 1:47 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Thank you KIKI. I think you've explained the conundrum better that I could.

JO, SIX ... capitalism is ALSO a choice. And like other human systems, it will not last forever. There have been many systems before ... communalism, manorialism, feudalism, imperialism, mercantilism, capitalism, socialism, fascism, financialism, cooperatives ... systems that have come and gone and sometimes reappeared in different guise, and gone again ... today's capitalism itself has morphed into financialism and fascism. You've only ever known whatever economic system that we have, but if you look at history it will broaden out the scope of possibilities since all things change.

*****

So, can we get OFF the topic of automation being "inevitable"? NOTHING is inevitable except death, not even taxes. But if you still feel that automation is inevitable let's agree to disagree, OK?

Let's get back on-track to what we would like for our nation

I already tried to get a discussion going on Universal Basic Income (UBI). IMHO it is fiscally impossible (unless you somehow triple your tax base) and economically counterproductive ... it will not have the hoped-for result of improving people's living standards except in the very short run, but will then lead to generalized price increases and overall inflation. We've seen that happen in Venezuela when Chavez turned over the oil industry's profits to "help" the Venezuelan people without at the same time increasing production and hardening the economy against economic warfare. The same thing happened in Weimar Germany.

But I'm really interested if you see a flaw in my reasoning. If you do I'd be happy to discuss it.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 3:23 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It seems to me that, by lack of reply, that there's no particular flaw in my facts or in my reasoning about UBI?

HOWEVER, don't take this to mean that I think that the wealthy shouldn't be taxed and that the wealth gap shouldn't be narrowed, because right now the wealth gap is obscene. More than obscene, it's unconscionable.

I realize that people need help now, not in some utopian post-globalist/fascist/monopolist future. And I predict that more people will need help in the next year or so, because I believe that we will be facing a major downturn soon (kicked off when one of our many financial bubbles pops).

So yes, we should increase taxes on the rich. We should eliminate the Social Security cap. We should decrease military spending by 10% per year for the next 15 years. We should negotiate for better drug prices, and pop that healthcare bubble by creating Medicare for all, since it is sucking up nearly 20% of our economy with VERY poor results. We SHOULD tariff imports at 20%.

But don't we have anything better to do with the money we've saved/ collected BESIDES "money for nothing"?

Are you telling me that there's nothing else we should be doing that we're currently not doing ... no biodiversity to save and environments to restore? No housing to rehabilitate and make more energy-efficient? No small/urban farms to foster? No schools to repair? No energy-efficient cars to build, no solar panels to develop, and no windmills to raise? No electric grids to update and emergency supplies to lay in? No sick people to tend and homeless to restore?

IF we're going to save/collect this money, shouldn't it be more than a permanent welfare program? How about making it a bridge to something better? Something that will improve our production and make our environment sustainable?

I'd like you to listen to this. It's long, and - as usual (being the disagreeable person that I am) I don't agree with everything they say. I'll tell you where my major disagreements are.

But I hope after listening to this we'll have something more to discuss.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 6:00 AM

rezident owtsidr

No reply befor kuz I wuz bizzy making stuff.

Kiki & Sig, you 2 are missing the point.

Let me try another imajinary example.

By 2030, Georgia, a punch press operator at an old medium size company, haz manajd to accumulate nearly 2 million $ over her 30 yirz at the company. Partly from being frugal, a big chunk from the lawsuit wen her huzband wuz killed by a freak manual can opener malfunction, partly frum good stock investments, and she rents out 3 uv the 4 flats in the apartment bilding she ownz & livez in.

The company, Amalgamated Punch LTD iz sumwut outmoded, all the equipment iz old fashioned manually operated. Even tho the machinez are well maintained and in perfect working order, they cant compete agenst the latest automated integrated production systemz. APL stayz in bizness only due to the owner giving loyal customerz low enuf prisez to keep them from swiching supplyerz.

Georgia iz getting old. Arthritis iz starting to make it difficult to do the job. She coud retire, but she duznt want to put old man Howard in a bind, kuz therez no way he'd be able to find anybody to do this tedious job for the minimum waje he payz her. The last 10 or 15 youngsterz they hired were gon in less than 2 munths.

So she bringz in her butler droid to do her job.

She tellz the old man 'I'll hav him stacking boardz and packing, just so I dont hav to get up all the time' just to eaze him into it. He'z been agenst droidz and automation in jeneral all along. Sumthing about 'the beast taking over' kuz he'z a fundamentalist kristian and hiz pastor iz a doomzday wakkadoodle, or a con man, or both.

But, az she intended all along, the droid iz soon doing all the work. She still bringz him home every nite to continue the home chorez, but that will chanje next week wen she buyz the latest model, wich can also drive, do any sorts uv repairz around the house, including remodeling. Also, for about 10,000$ extra, it can hav a very realistic human appearence, female or male! fully functional female or male. She can hardly wait to welkum Raul to her home.

2032 - Georgia iz still 'employed' az a punch press operator at APL. Still gets a paycheck every week. Still payz income taxez, social security, insurans. Still playz the ball game betting pool, puts a dollar into the Lotto pool. And a few timez a week, she even stops in to chat with everybody for a few owrz.

Aside from getting hiz hand crunched in the press, Darnell Jr. (they named him after the painfully skinny old janitor hoo retired last yir kuz her old droid iz hardly more than a stick figure) iz doing great. Raul replased the missing hand in like 2 minits with a new & improved wun. He actually runz 3 pressez kuz he can work so much faster than a human. Don and Dieter wanted to retire anyway, so Howard wuz happy to lower hiz payroll cost. So happy that he desided to be a good Kristian and pay them a pension! Not big - just a few thouzand a yir, rite at the limit before it woud count agenst their social security, but it did wonderz for employee moral wen they showed up at the company picnic and blabbed about it, even tho he told them not to tell anybody.

SO!

Wuts the differens? Georgia iznt forsing her creaky old joints to earn her pay anymore, but the work iz still getting dun. She ownz the droid, so she gets the money.

Wut if the company owned the droid insted?

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com .

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 6:09 AM

rezident owtsidr

PS - Kunstler iz an idiot.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com .

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 6:52 AM

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
No reply befor kuz I wuz bizzy making stuff.

How dare you!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Also, for about 10,000$ extra, it can hav a very realistic human appearence, female or male! fully functional female or male. She can hardly wait to welkum Raul to her home.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
2032 - Georgia iz still 'employed' az a punch press operator at APL. Still gets a paycheck every week. Still payz income taxez, social security, insurans. Still playz the ball game betting pool, puts a dollar into the Lotto pool. And a few timez a week, she even stops in to chat with everybody for a few owrz.

Aside from getting hiz hand crunched in the press, Darnell Jr. (they named him after the painfully skinny old janitor hoo retired last yir kuz her old droid iz hardly more than a stick figure) iz doing great. Raul replased the missing hand in like 2 minits with a new & improved wun. He actually runz 3 pressez kuz he can work so much faster than a human. Don and Dieter wanted to retire anyway, so Howard wuz happy to lower hiz payroll cost. So happy that he desided to be a good Kristian and pay them a pension! Not big - just a few thouzand a yir, rite at the limit before it woud count agenst their social security, but it did wonderz for employee moral wen they showed up at the company picnic and blabbed about it, even tho he told them not to tell anybody.

SO!

Wuts the differens? Georgia iznt forsing her creaky old joints to earn her pay anymore, but the work iz still getting dun. She ownz the droid, so she gets the money.

Wut if the company owned the droid insted?

Yanno, fwiw I never trusted Dieter. He was a selfish arse.

It occurs to me Jo, that story telling is the perfect way to promote NQaLF. By getting people hooked on "what's going to happen next" they will over come the initial resistance their brain might have to the extra effort (as low as it might be). I can't tell you how many times I have been trapped by a home remodel show because if I invest 5 minutes I HAVE TO see how the damn things turns out. They don't have to be long, the story above is perfect.

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 9:46 AM

It seems, at least to me, that we're all on the same page again. At least kind of...

I'm not arguing either of you on how the system works today, or that it is unsustainable. That is how the system works today, and just like health insurance (or any form of insurance for that matter), social security, real estate, the DOW, and a host of other systems we have in place, it is unsustainable since they're all ponzi schemes.

However, none of that precludes the idea that artificial intelligence is eventually going to take over.

There doesn't need to be a literal droid in every single home for this to happen in the future. Just like there doesn't need to be 100% current US job loss to foreign countries, automation and illegal aliens for the middle class to disappear today.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 11:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
She ownz the droid, so she gets the money.

Wut if the company owned the droid insted?

She would have been out of a job and never been able to accumulate 2 million dollars.

Jo, your story is a fairy tale of how automation MIGHT come about without workers losing out, but it depends on a kindly business owner and a freak accident and people near retirement.

We all know that's not wht really happens. Automation means lost jobs. Heck, my JPMChase branch put in "automated tellers" last year and two-thirds of the staff disappeared. That boxing company that you worked at? Jobs would disappear. Truck unloading? Shelf stocking? There are robots for that too. MRI reading? AI. Lost jobs, up and down the payscale.

*****

Oh BTW, there are parts to the Kunstler interview that made my head explode. ( I DID say that there were parts I disagreed with!)

There were a few things that he said that derailed our listening and turned into a discussion/argument:

The "thinking class" phrase just made me grit my teeth, as did "the economy of less". First of all, even believing that there is a "thinking class" dismisses everyone who isn't in that presumed Ivy-League class as nonthinkers, and you and I know that isn't true! And if the "thinking class" really HAD been thinking, they would have never supported Hillary, or fallen for that RUSSIA!RUSSIA!RUSSIA! disinformation campaign! I tend to think of his "thinking class" as the "rationalization class" who've spent the past five decades simply making fancy excuses for TPTB.

As for the "economy of less" ... well, there are an awful lot of people who simply can't DO with less! Is he proposing the the homeless do with less housing? The uninsured sick do with less medical care? The malnourished and hungry do with less food, or worse food? On the one hand, he acknowledges that he's in a privileged position: He can buy a new tire AND a new battery for his vehicles on the same day. He can be a hobby farmer -one who is having great difficulty engaging the serfs who're working on boutique farms around him in creating a new self-reliant community, because THEY'RE too busy just scraping by! Then OTOH he proposes that people do with "less"? What a tool.
Are those the things that you reacted to? Or was it something else?

I propose a solution of "more": More work for more security. Maybe it would mean less AC - or no AC. Maybe it would mean fewer 20-room mansions. Maybe it would mean fewer unaffordable luxuries like going into hock for fancy weddings, or splurging on a leather jacket, or even less meat. But maybe it would mean knowing that you can eat healthy sustaining food today, tomorrow and for the forseeable future, sleep in a safe home, knowing that the govenment has your back if you get sick and when you retire, or if there's a disaster that is beyond your community's ability to respond to. That your kids will be able to live as well as you do, and their kids and their kids will too. Anyway, that's my idea.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 2:50 PM

A/C... what a novelty that would be. The only time I've had A/C in the last 20 years was my apartment in Wisconsin. It wasn't good A/C, but it took the edge off.

I've never had working A/C in a car my entire life.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 3:02 PM

I can't recall how it worked on Star Trek, but once they figured out how to create stuff virtually out of thin air with machines, they didn't use currency anymore.

The Orville explains it that their form of "currency" is your status in life. They give a nice spin on it as if the currency you have in that universe is strictly merit based and has nothing to do with being born into it.

Sounds great on paper, but you and I both know that even if we had everything we could possibly ever want and money wasn't an issue there would still be those who coveted power above everything else and there would still be a system of classes in place that have nothing at all to do with merit.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, June 30, 2019 3:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753

Wut if the company owned the droid insted?

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com .

That's a question you didn't answer, except indirectly ... apparently all those OTHER automated companies own theirs, and laid off their workers, instead of letting them reach retirement age.

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Monday, July 1, 2019 12:28 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
A/C... what a novelty that would be. The only time I've had A/C in the last 20 years was my apartment in Wisconsin. It wasn't good A/C, but it took the edge off.

I've never had working A/C in a car my entire life.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Well, with global climate shift I think more people are going to need AC. I found out the hard way that people with heart failure ... well, their hearts fail even worse in hot weather. So in addition to making homes more energy-efficient I would probably outfit at least one room with an AC unit so people who needed it could cool off. Then I would drive the electricity prices really high beyond a baseline amount, except for people with medical exemptions (people who need oxygen machines, people with heart failure). That way the option would be there for people to use, and they could decide if it was worth the cost.

Also, people with basements already have a place to cool off.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Monday, July 1, 2019 8:40 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Gallup Poll from last month shows 23% of Americans consider Illegal Immigration to be the number 1 problem. This was around 11% at the time of the Election when Trump won.

Dems are helping Trump usher in another term, making it sooooo easy.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2019 8:45 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Trump will win unless we have another financial freeze-up like we did in 2008, or some other finacial catastrophe ensues.

As far as immigration, IMHO the proposed policy should be a no-brainer:

Secure the border (with a wall, where necessary)

Change immigration laws to require that ONLY political asylees be given authorization, and require them to present themselves at an official port of entry and to wait outside of the USA while their application is being processed. (Justin Trudeau is such a virtue-signalling ninny, he can take in the Mexicans who're waiting for their applications to be processed.)

Deport everyone else post-haste, and hire more judges and streamline the hearing process.

Start doing mass raids for illegals, and ship them out of country.

Continue to apply pressure on Mexico so that it doesn't just "pass thru" migrants.

STOP MEDDLING IN OTHER NATIONS' INTERNAL AFFAIRS

*****

Now, if you're going to areas that are beyond a President's purview:

Make english the official language of the USA

Drop birthright citizenship from the 14th amendment

In exchange for the two (above) make citizenship a REQUIREMENT, not an option, for anyone who has been living in the USA crime=free for 25 years. If they don't make the grade, deport them.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 9:48 AM

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Trump will win unless we have another financial freeze-up like we did in 2008, or some other finacial catastrophe ensues.

As far as immigration, IMHO the proposed policy should be a no-brainer:

Secure the border (with a wall, where necessary)

Change immigration laws to require that ONLY political asylees be given authorization, and require them to present themselves at an official port of entry and to wait outside of the USA while their application is being processed. (Justin Trudeau is such a virtue-signalling ninny, he can take in the Mexicans who're waiting for their applications to be processed.)

Deport everyone else post-haste, and hire more judges and streamline the hearing process.

Start doing mass raids for illegals, and ship them out of country.

Continue to apply pressure on Mexico so that it doesn't just "pass thru" migrants.

STOP MEDDLING IN OTHER NATIONS' INTERNAL AFFAIRS

*****

Now, if you're going to areas that are beyond a President's purview:

Make english the official language of the USA

Drop birthright citizenship from the 14th amendment

In exchange for the two (above) make citizenship a REQUIREMENT, not an option, for anyone who has been living in the USA crime=free for 25 years. If they don't make the grade, deport them.

Alex, I'll take "Things an American Nazi would say" for $100.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 10:25 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Trump will win unless we have another financial freeze-up like we did in 2008, or some other finacial catastrophe ensues.

As far as immigration, IMHO the proposed policy should be a no-brainer:

Secure the border (with a wall, where necessary)

Change immigration laws to require that ONLY political asylees be given authorization, and require them to present themselves at an official port of entry and to wait outside of the USA while their application is being processed. (Justin Trudeau is such a virtue-signalling ninny, he can take in the Mexicans who're waiting for their applications to be processed.)

Deport everyone else post-haste, and hire more judges and streamline the hearing process.

Start doing mass raids for illegals, and ship them out of country.

Continue to apply pressure on Mexico so that it doesn't just "pass thru" migrants.

STOP MEDDLING IN OTHER NATIONS' INTERNAL AFFAIRS

*****

Now, if you're going to areas that are beyond a President's purview:

Make english the official language of the USA

Drop birthright citizenship from the 14th amendment

In exchange for the two (above) make citizenship a REQUIREMENT, not an option, for anyone who has been living in the USA crime=free for 25 years. If they don't make the grade, deport them.

Alex, I'll take "Things an American Nazi would say" for $100.

Yeah, because "American Nazis" are SOOOO insistent about not intervening in other nations' internal affairs and SOOOO insistent about making long-term illegal aliens citizens!

Alex, I'll take "Things a liberaloid troll would say for $50".

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 10:48 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, this partly belongs in "Who's running in 2020?" but I did manage to listen to some of the debate, and one refrain I heard over and over again was that we would "solve" the migrant crisis by "investing in" the nations south of our border.

While it sounds nice, our "investments" and our "aid" and even IMF "development" loans, have a tendency to be structured such that the real beneficiaries are our banks and our industries and a corrupt local elite. MOST "investment" ("aid", "development loans") wind up going to things like large infrastructural projects that don't help the local economy (dams that displace people and which produce electricity that locals can't afford), production facilities that allow our industries to take advantage of cheap labor abroad (sweatshops in Haiti, maquilladoras in northern Mexico, Purdue chicken farms in S Korea production meant for export etc) or to extract commodities (oil, coffee etc). That, plus any time you create a "money flow" you also encourage corruption: A lot of NGO and USA money flowing into Afghanistan winds up in the pockets of a small group of Afghanis living near "embassy row" in Kabul.

So when I hear about these plans to "invest" in foreign nations, I wince. I can't decide if the candidates who're proposing these "investments" are just naive, indoctrinated, or fully co-opted.

I haven't given much thought to what kind of aid would be most suitable and NOT distort the recipient's economy in some way. Unless someone comes up with a great idea that will help a foreign economy grow organically and be sustainable, I think I would have to be content with "First, do no harm".

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
ductin
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 10:53 AM

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Trump will win unless we have another financial freeze-up like we did in 2008, or some other finacial catastrophe ensues.

As far as immigration, IMHO the proposed policy should be a no-brainer:

Secure the border (with a wall, where necessary)

Change immigration laws to require that ONLY political asylees be given authorization, and require them to present themselves at an official port of entry and to wait outside of the USA while their application is being processed. (Justin Trudeau is such a virtue-signalling ninny, he can take in the Mexicans who're waiting for their applications to be processed.)

Deport everyone else post-haste, and hire more judges and streamline the hearing process.

Start doing mass raids for illegals, and ship them out of country.

Continue to apply pressure on Mexico so that it doesn't just "pass thru" migrants.

STOP MEDDLING IN OTHER NATIONS' INTERNAL AFFAIRS

*****

Now, if you're going to areas that are beyond a President's purview:

Make english the official language of the USA

Drop birthright citizenship from the 14th amendment

In exchange for the two (above) make citizenship a REQUIREMENT, not an option, for anyone who has been living in the USA crime=free for 25 years. If they don't make the grade, deport them.

Alex, I'll take "Things an American Nazi would say" for $100.
Yeah, because "American Nazis" are SOOOO insistent about not intervening in other nations' internal affairs and SOOOO insistent about making long-term illegal aliens citizens!

Alex, I'll take "Things a liberaloid troll would say for $50".

OK - these Nazi things:

"Deport everyone else post-haste, and hire more judges and streamline the hearing process."

"Start doing mass raids for illegals, and ship them out of country." (like they're packages)

"In exchange for the two (above) make citizenship a REQUIREMENT, not an option, for anyone who has been living in the USA crime=free for 25 years. If they don't make the grade, deport them." how you gonna pay for that? You can't is how, mijo.

"...he can take in the Mexicans who're waiting for their applications to be processed." They're not all Mexicans. I'm guessing you've had some bad experiences with some Mexicans to single them out like that...?

"Drop birthright citizenship from the 14th amendment " - so you'd ship Melania's parents back?

"Secure the border (with a wall, where necessary)"
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work

Immigration is easy to solve when all you have to do is type on a forum!

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:

OK - these Nazi things:

"Deport everyone else post-haste, and hire more judges and streamline the hearing process."

"Start doing mass raids for illegals, and ship them out of country." (like they're packages)

"In exchange for the two (above) make citizenship a REQUIREMENT, not an option, for anyone who has been living in the USA crime=free for 25 years. If they don't make the grade, deport them." how you gonna pay for that? You can't is how, mijo.

Pay for making citizenship a requirement? Pay for increased number of judges? Pay for streamlining the process? Pay for deporting people? It would be such a tiny part of our overall Federal budget, we could pay for it by simply not buying a couple of F35s. Or maybe pulling our troops out of Afghanistan, Germany, and Japan. Or not sending an aircraft carrier group on a world cruise. I don't understand your point. Do you have one?

Quote:
"...he can take in the Mexicans who're waiting for their applications to be processed." They're not all Mexicans. I'm guessing you've had some bad experiences with some Mexicans to single them out like that...?

No. The problem is that Mexico can hold people from Central America if they're requesting asylum in the USA (hmmm... why not request asylum from Mexico, again?) because Mexico is not the nation at fault. However, if there are MEXICANS requesting asylum, where are they supposed to stay? Mexico? They need to go to some third country. Since Trudeau is all about diversity and helping the poor migrants, I thought maybe Canada would be a good choice.

Quote:
"Drop birthright citizenship from the 14th amendment " - so you'd ship Melania's parents back?

Are they here illegally? (You DO know what birthright citizenship is, don't you?)

Quote:
"Secure the border (with a wall, where necessary)"
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work

Well, it works for Israel and it works for Hungary, so why not here?

Quote:
Immigration is easy to solve when all you have to do is type on a forum!

This is a DISCUSSION forum, or haven't you noticed?

I'm trying to come up with an integrated policy that SOLVES several problems, not knee-jerk sound-bites that candidates and liberaloids (or conservatives) would be happy with. The most important part is to look at and eliminate the root cause of migrant crises, and the second most important part is to eliminate our moral culpability for creating those conditions. At the same time, "diversity" is a pointless exercise. Do you think you and your wife would get along better and be stronger together if you didn't speak at least ONE common language? If one of you held a significant grudge against the other? If one of you was committed to the marriage but the other didn't even believe in the institution? Hey, if we're not together on this project called "America" then America isn't going to last.

I tossed in the citizenship pathway (many years ago) to sweeten the pot for making the other necessary changes (making English language official, eliminating birthright citizenship) acceptable. Quid pro quo. The reason why I think citizenship needs to be a REQUIREMENT (not an option) is because I don't believe that any nation is well-served by having a significant number of people living within its borders who're not committed to their nation of residence. This goes for Finns and Canadians and Chinese who're living here illegally (mostly visa overstays) as well as Hispanics (mostly border-jumpers).

Just look at the problems Sweden, Germany, and France are having with ther migrant crises. There are only so many people you can integrate culturally and economically into your system: it's a rate-limiting step.

I recall listening to one of NPR's many OHTHEPOORMIGRANT stories about a guy in South Gate describing how he started coming to a particular park 40 years ago to celebrate the 4th of July. In Spanish. FORTY YEARS, and he hasn't learned the fucking language yet??? My dad had to learn English, my husband and his whole family had to learn English, my mom and HER parents had to learn English. WTH???

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 12:51 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There's one other aspect of the cause of mass migrations besides war and poverty, and that's the fact that many Central American nations are dominated by, and their governments overwhelmed by, drug cartels.

I don't have a good answer to that, but this is where my musing lead:

There wouldn't be such wealthy drug cartels if there wasn't such a huge market in the USA. Now, there are several ways to reduce that market and make it less profitable (legalization, drug treatment programs, more interdiction) but each of them has its own problems.

However, I will point out that when the formal (legal) economy deteriorates, the illegal economy tends to take over. In Buffalo, when the steel industry collapsed, the Mafia took over. In Detroit, when the auto industry collapsed, the gangs took over. In Russia, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the Russian Mafia managed to snatch up much of the formerly nationalized wealth, and alcohol abuse rose catastrophically and lifespan fell by several years, incredibly. Also, when people are underemployed and insecure about their future and see no way out, they tend to sedate themselves with food, booze, drugs, and social media.

So part of the demand for drugs is based, unsurprisingly, in the parts of the USA that are the most economically depressed.

ONE part of the answer is shoring up the formal economy, and bringing back meaningful productive jobs.

ANOTHER part of the answer, I think, is to make drug treatment programs part of our national Medicare.

A third part of the answer is to legalize pot. (But I think modern strains are way too strong, so legal pot should be at maybe 10% total cannabinoids). I think other drugs are too dangerous to legalize.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 1:17 PM

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Pay for making citizenship a requirement? Pay for increased number of judges? Pay for streamlining the process? Pay for deporting people? It would be such a tiny part of our overall Federal budget, we could pay for it by simply not buying a couple of F35s. Or maybe pulling our troops out of Afghanistan, Germany, and Japan. Or not sending an aircraft carrier group on a world cruise. I don't understand your point. Do you have one?

Yes, the same point I make one over and over that you always ignore: just because you "could pay for it on paper" means absolutely nothing in terms of real life. Look at your list! It's ridiculous pie in the sky funding. None of that's going to happen. What CAN happen is almost always different than those dreamy plans you have. Look at who you're dealing with and look at our history.
Now, if you were living in a dictatorship like Trump would like us to be, you could just do it.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM: No. The problem is that Mexico can hold people from Central America if they're requesting asylum in the USA (hmmm... why not request asylum from Mexico, again?) because Mexico is not the nation at fault. However, if there are MEXICANS requesting asylum, where are they supposed to stay? Mexico? They need to go to some third country. Since Trudeau is all about diversity and helping the poor migrants, I thought maybe Canada would be a good choice.

They don't want to live in Mexico or they would. Why travel more miles without food and water or very little, if they don't have to? And - FUNDING - Mexico is sure as hell not going to intercede on our behalf after the sh*t Trump has said about them.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM: (You DO know what birthright citizenship is, don't you?)

Yes of course, if your pregnant mother drags herself across the border and gives birth to you here, bingo, you're a citizen. You do know that's not too much different than what Melanie's parents went through, don't you?

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
"Secure the border (with a wall, where necessary)"
Well, it works for Israel and it works for Hungary, so why not here?

We're not them and again, funding. Just cuz you can think it up doesn't mean it can happen. That's what Trump and the GOP depend on: people's imaginations being about 1/50th% accurate, but 100% easy to appeal to.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is a DISCUSSION forum, or haven't you noticed?

I am discussing why many of your ideas won't work unless we lived in a dictatorship.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm trying to come up with an integrated policy that SOLVES several problems, not knee-jerk sound-bites that candidates and liberaloids (or conservatives) would be happy with.

That's what a number of your ideas sound like to me. They are sound bites and mostly impractical in real world settings.
"Round 'em up and ship 'em back to wherever they came from!" You have no idea how much that would cost or how you would implement that - total sound bite.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The most important part is to look at and eliminate the root cause of migrant crises, and the second most important part is to eliminate our moral culpability for creating those conditions. At the same time, "diversity" is a pointless exercise. Do you think you and your wife would get along better and be stronger together if you didn't speak at least ONE common language? If one of you held a significant grudge against the other? If one of you was committed to the marriage but the other didn't even believe in the institution? Hey, if we're not together on this project called "America" then America isn't going to last.

I've agreed with you before on one language. I say free English language training for all legal immigrants.
I agree with you on: "eliminate the root cause of migrant crises," but that's pretty hard to define or at least agree on. especially in this political climate and with this president. He hates non-whites. If we don't agree on that then we're just not going to agree on most of this.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I tossed in the citizenship pathway (many years ago) to sweeten the pot for making the other necessary changes (making English language official, eliminating birthright citizenship) acceptable. Quid pro quo. The reason why I think citizenship needs to be a REQUIREMENT (not an option) is because I don't believe that any nation is well-served by having a significant number of people living within its borders who're not committed to their nation of residence. This goes for Finns and Canadians and Chinese who're living here illegally (mostly visa overstays) as well as Hispanics (mostly border-jumpers).

Just look at the problems Sweden, Germany, and France are having with ther migrant crises. There are only so many people you can integrate culturally and economically into your system: it's a rate-limiting step.

I recall listening to one of NPR's many OHTHEPOORMIGRANT stories about a guy in South Gate describing how he started coming to a particular park 40 years ago to celebrate the 4th of July. In Spanish. FORTY YEARS, and he hasn't learned the fucking language yet??? My dad had to learn English, my husband and his whole family had to learn English, my mom and HER parents had to learn English. WTH???

Meh - that feels fascist to me. If I moved to Italy I wouldn't expect them to knock on my door and tell me I have to learn Italian. Same with any country I move to that I'd want to move to. You learn it to get along better. Doesn't hurt anyone but himself not to learn English. Provide free classes - the carrot - and you might move the needle. Otherwise you're back to trying to find the money to track down and prove someone hasn't learned the language well enough, and good luck with that.

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 3:36 PM

There has never been a single instance of anything anywhere to back up any claims that Trump hates non-whites.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 4:52 PM

rezident owtsidr

Been offline 4 dayz.

Powr & interweb wirez got ripped by a falling tree in my back yard from the nayborz back yard.

ComEd got the powr bak yesterday. The Comcast cable tek never showed up, so I fixed it myself today.

I see the GRU ajents are partisipating in the '2016 Trump campane wuz the victim' fairy tale being pushed hard theze dayz.

Good video, CC.

I did rite a few storyz in NQaLF: http://www.nqalf.com/STOREZ.html

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com .

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Wednesday, July 3, 2019 4:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Pay for making citizenship a requirement? Pay for increased number of judges? Pay for streamlining the process? Pay for deporting people? It would be such a tiny part of our overall Federal budget, we could pay for it by simply not buying a couple of F35s. Or maybe pulling our troops out of Afghanistan, Germany, and Japan. Or not sending an aircraft carrier group on a world cruise. I don't understand your point. Do you have one? - SIGNY

Yes, the same point I make one over and over that you always ignore: just because you "could pay for it on paper" means absolutely nothing in terms of real life. Look at your list! It's ridiculous pie in the sky funding. None of that's going to happen. What CAN happen is almost always different than those dreamy plans you have. Look at who you're dealing with and look at our history.
Now, if you were living in a dictatorship like Trump would like us to be, you could just do it.- CC

Are you saying that just because we can't solve anything by discussing online, we shouldn't post anything at all? 'Cause if that's the case, then why all these posts about Trump?

Quote:
No. The problem is that Mexico can hold people from Central America if they're requesting asylum in the USA (hmmm... why not request asylum from Mexico, again?) because Mexico is not the nation at fault. However, if there are MEXICANS requesting asylum, where are they supposed to stay? Mexico? They need to go to some third country. Since Trudeau is all about diversity and helping the poor migrants, I thought maybe Canada would be a good choice.- SIGNY

They don't want to live in Mexico or they would. Why travel more miles without food and water or very little, if they don't have to? And - FUNDING - Mexico is sure as hell not going to intercede on our behalf after the sh*t Trump has said about them. -CC

when you're asking for political asylum you're looking for protection from your own government. If you start picking and choosing where you want to be an asylee, then clearly OTHER factors are at work ... economic factors ... and you become an economic migrant, not a political asylee.

Quote:
(You DO know what birthright citizenship is, don't you?)- SIGNY

Yes of course, if your pregnant mother drags herself across the border and gives birth to you here, bingo, you're a citizen. You do know that's not too much different than what Melanie's parents went through, don't you?- CC

I have no idea what her parents went thru. She herself wasn't born in the USA, she's a naturalized citizen so there's no comparison to between her parents' situation and birthright citizenship.

Quote:

"Secure the border (with a wall, where necessary)"
Well, it works for Israel and it works for Hungary, so why not here?- SIGNY

We're not them and again, funding. Just cuz you can think it up doesn't mean it can happen. That's what Trump and the GOP depend on: people's imaginations being about 1/50th% accurate, but 100% easy to appeal to.

I could say the same, but about 250X that, about Ocasio Cortez. The wall is a trivial amount of funding ($4 billion) in an almost $1T budget. Something like universal basic income would consume the entire budget, and then some!

Quote:
This is a DISCUSSION forum, or haven't you noticed? -SIGNY

I am discussing why many of your ideas won't work unless we lived in a dictatorship.- CC

I don't see anything "dictatorial" about them. Many of my suggestions are within the purview of a President. Some require the input of Congress. If enough people are convinced that these are good policies to follow they'll vote that way. It seems to me that you're afraid that people might be convinced to change their minds, instead of being swayed by the bullshit, hysterics, and hype in all directions?

Quote:

I'm trying to come up with an integrated policy that SOLVES several problems, not knee-jerk sound-bites that candidates and liberaloids (or conservatives) would be happy with. - SIGNY

That's what a number of your ideas sound like to me. They are sound bites and mostly impractical in real world settings.
"Round 'em up and ship 'em back to wherever they came from!" You have no idea how much that would cost or how you would implement that - total sound bite.- CC

That's called "enforcing the law". As SECOND has so often pointd out, Obama did more ofthat than Trump.

Quote:

The most important part is to look at and eliminate the root cause of migrant crises, and the second most important part is to eliminate our moral culpability for creating those conditions. At the same time, "diversity" is a pointless exercise. Do you think you and your wife would get along better and be stronger together if you didn't speak at least ONE common language? If one of you held a significant grudge against the other? If one of you was committed to the marriage but the other didn't even believe in the institution? Hey, if we're not together on this project called "America" then America isn't going to last. - SIGNY

I've agreed with you before on one language. I say free English language training for all legal immigrants.
I agree with you on: "eliminate the root cause of migrant crises," but that's pretty hard to define or at least agree on. especially in this political climate and with this president. He hates non-whites. If we don't agree on that then we're just not going to agree on most of this. - CC

The proximate cause of the migrant crises is WHY so many people feel compelled to leave their homes and migrate. It has NOTHING to do with whether or not Trump "hates" nonwhites. Because Trump "hates" nonwhites they feel compelled to move here?

Quote:

I tossed in the citizenship pathway (many years ago) to sweeten the pot for making the other necessary changes (making English language official, eliminating birthright citizenship) acceptable. Quid pro quo. The reason why I think citizenship needs to be a REQUIREMENT (not an option) is because I don't believe that any nation is well-served by having a significant number of people living within its borders who're not committed to their nation of residence. This goes for Finns and Canadians and Chinese who're living here illegally (mostly visa overstays) as well as Hispanics (mostly border-jumpers).

Just look at the problems Sweden, Germany, and France are having with ther migrant crises. There are only so many people you can integrate culturally and economically into your system: it's a rate-limiting step.

I recall listening to one of NPR's many OHTHEPOORMIGRANT stories about a guy in South Gate describing how he started coming to a particular park 40 years ago to celebrate the 4th of July. In Spanish. FORTY YEARS, and he hasn't learned the fucking language yet??? My dad had to learn English, my husband and his whole family had to learn English, my mom and HER parents had to learn English. WTH???- SIGNY

Meh - that feels fascist to me. If I moved to Italy I wouldn't expect them to knock on my door and tell me I have to learn Italian.

If I moved to Italy and expected to become a citizen, I sure as hell would expect to HAVE to learn Italian. Learning English BTW is a current requirement for citizenship. And just as a practical matter, if I lived and worked anywhere outside of an English-speaking country, I would expect to HAVE to learn the dominant language of the country. I wouldn't want to be one of those entitled expats living in a gated community and expecting everyone to speak MY language. That's the definition of the "ugly American" and it's ugly no matter WHO is doing it.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, July 4, 2019 11:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Been offline 4 dayz.

Powr & interweb wirez got ripped by a falling tree in my back yard from the nayborz back yard.

ComEd got the powr bak yesterday. The Comcast cable tek never showed up, so I fixed it myself today.

I see the GRU ajents are partisipating in the '2016 Trump campane wuz the victim' fairy tale being pushed hard theze dayz.

Good video, CC.

I did rite a few storyz in NQaLF: http://www.nqalf.com/STOREZ.html

Hey JO, welcome back! I was wondering where you were! This thread has been added to quite a bit since you were last here, but as you were the only person to actually write up a platform, it could probably use your input!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, July 4, 2019 12:46 PM

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:
Pay for making citizenship a requirement? Pay for increased number of judges? Pay for streamlining the process? Pay for deporting people? It would be such a tiny part of our overall Federal budget, we could pay for it by simply not buying a couple of F35s. Or maybe pulling our troops out of Afghanistan, Germany, and Japan. Or not sending an aircraft carrier group on a world cruise. I don't understand your point. Do you have one? - SIGNY

Yes, the same point I make one over and over that you always ignore: just because you "could pay for it on paper" means absolutely nothing in terms of real life. Look at your list! It's ridiculous pie in the sky funding. None of that's going to happen. What CAN happen is almost always different than those dreamy plans you have. Look at who you're dealing with and look at our history.
Now, if you were living in a dictatorship like Trump would like us to be, you could just do it.- CC
Are you saying that just because we can't solve anything by discussing online, we shouldn't post anything at all? 'Cause if that's the case, then why all these posts about Trump?

Quote:
No. The problem is that Mexico can hold people from Central America if they're requesting asylum in the USA (hmmm... why not request asylum from Mexico, again?) because Mexico is not the nation at fault. However, if there are MEXICANS requesting asylum, where are they supposed to stay? Mexico? They need to go to some third country. Since Trudeau is all about diversity and helping the poor migrants, I thought maybe Canada would be a good choice.- SIGNY

They don't want to live in Mexico or they would. Why travel more miles without food and water or very little, if they don't have to? And - FUNDING - Mexico is sure as hell not going to intercede on our behalf after the sh*t Trump has said about them. -CC
when you're asking for political asylum you're looking for protection from your own government. If you start picking and choosing where you want to be an asylee, then clearly OTHER factors are at work ... economic factors ... and you become an economic migrant, not a political asylee.

Quote:
(You DO know what birthright citizenship is, don't you?)- SIGNY

Yes of course, if your pregnant mother drags herself across the border and gives birth to you here, bingo, you're a citizen. You do know that's not too much different than what Melanie's parents went through, don't you?- CC
I have no idea what her parents went thru. She herself wasn't born in the USA, she's a naturalized citizen so there's no comparison to between her parents' situation and birthright citizenship.

Quote:

"Secure the border (with a wall, where necessary)"
Well, it works for Israel and it works for Hungary, so why not here?- SIGNY

We're not them and again, funding. Just cuz you can think it up doesn't mean it can happen. That's what Trump and the GOP depend on: people's imaginations being about 1/50th% accurate, but 100% easy to appeal to.
I could say the same, but about 250X that, about Ocasio Cortez. The wall is a trivial amount of funding ($4 billion) in an almost $1T budget. Something like universal basic income would consume the entire budget, and then some!

Quote:
This is a DISCUSSION forum, or haven't you noticed? -SIGNY

I am discussing why many of your ideas won't work unless we lived in a dictatorship.- CC
I don't see anything "dictatorial" about them. Many of my suggestions are within the purview of a President. Some require the input of Congress. If enough people are convinced that these are good policies to follow they'll vote that way. It seems to me that you're afraid that people might be convinced to change their minds, instead of being swayed by the bullshit, hysterics, and hype in all directions?

Quote:

I'm trying to come up with an integrated policy that SOLVES several problems, not knee-jerk sound-bites that candidates and liberaloids (or conservatives) would be happy with. - SIGNY

That's what a number of your ideas sound like to me. They are sound bites and mostly impractical in real world settings.
"Round 'em up and ship 'em back to wherever they came from!" You have no idea how much that would cost or how you would implement that - total sound bite.- CC
That's called "enforcing the law". As SECOND has so often pointd out, Obama did more ofthat than Trump.

Quote:

The most important part is to look at and eliminate the root cause of migrant crises, and the second most important part is to eliminate our moral culpability for creating those conditions. At the same time, "diversity" is a pointless exercise. Do you think you and your wife would get along better and be stronger together if you didn't speak at least ONE common language? If one of you held a significant grudge against the other? If one of you was committed to the marriage but the other didn't even believe in the institution? Hey, if we're not together on this project called "America" then America isn't going to last. - SIGNY

I've agreed with you before on one language. I say free English language training for all legal immigrants.
I agree with you on: "eliminate the root cause of migrant crises," but that's pretty hard to define or at least agree on. especially in this political climate and with this president. He hates non-whites. If we don't agree on that then we're just not going to agree on most of this. - CC
The proximate cause of the migrant crises is WHY so many people feel compelled to leave their homes and migrate. It has NOTHING to do with whether or not Trump "hates" nonwhites. Because Trump "hates" nonwhites they feel compelled to move here?

Quote:

I tossed in the citizenship pathway (many years ago) to sweeten the pot for making the other necessary changes (making English language official, eliminating birthright citizenship) acceptable. Quid pro quo. The reason why I think citizenship needs to be a REQUIREMENT (not an option) is because I don't believe that any nation is well-served by having a significant number of people living within its borders who're not committed to their nation of residence. This goes for Finns and Canadians and Chinese who're living here illegally (mostly visa overstays) as well as Hispanics (mostly border-jumpers).

Just look at the problems Sweden, Germany, and France are having with ther migrant crises. There are only so many people you can integrate culturally and economically into your system: it's a rate-limiting step.

I recall listening to one of NPR's many OHTHEPOORMIGRANT stories about a guy in South Gate describing how he started coming to a particular park 40 years ago to celebrate the 4th of July. In Spanish. FORTY YEARS, and he hasn't learned the fucking language yet??? My dad had to learn English, my husband and his whole family had to learn English, my mom and HER parents had to learn English. WTH???- SIGNY

Meh - that feels fascist to me. If I moved to Italy I wouldn't expect them to knock on my door and tell me I have to learn Italian.
If I moved to Italy and expected to become a citizen, I sure as hell would expect to HAVE to learn Italian. Learning English BTW is a current requirement for citizenship. And just as a practical matter, if I lived and worked anywhere outside of an English-speaking country, I would expect to HAVE to learn the dominant language of the country. I wouldn't want to be one of those entitled expats living in a gated community and expecting everyone to speak MY language. That's the definition of the "ugly American" and it's ugly no matter WHO is doing it.

- No, Free Speech
- It can be both, duh. Would anyone seek asylum in the Congo?

- There totally is similarity - she was an anchor citizen.

- How would you FUND that? Real World? Remember?

- The Wall would not be $4 MORE billion, but it’s effect would be trivial. At least citizens would get help with UBI (as absurd as that is as well).

- “Enforcing the law” still takes FUNDING no matter how much you want to ignore that fact - you going to write a check?

- It’s because Trump hates non-whites that he will never $help the "shit hole" countries they come from.

- Good for you! I’d want to learn the language too.

So let me ask you on this last one:
How are you going to FUND enforcing that? How many Language Enforcment Officers will you need? How are you going to determine if someone can speak the language well enough? What are the standards? Who decides? What are you going to do if your enforcement militia determines they can’t speak to your standards? Deport? Remove a pinky? I get the feeling you haven't thought this through very far, just pumping out sound bites.

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Thursday, July 4, 2019 1:07 PM

There has never been a single instance of anything anywhere to back up any claims that Trump hates non-whites.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, July 5, 2019 2:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
There has never been a single instance of anything anywhere to back up any claims that Trump hates non-whites.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I agree. For all of the blah-blah-blah that's brought to the board here, there hasn't been one policy that I can say is aimed at "nonwhites". People point to Trump's immigration policies and ASSUME that they're based on racism (hmmm... maybe because the ppl making the accusation are themselves racist?) but I can see other more compelling reasons (nationalism, economics, security) to implement the same policies without involving "racism" whatsoever.

And then again, Trump has killed a lot fewer faraway brown people than Obama, or Bush. Obama just got a "pass" because he's a Democrat, and black. (Is that racism, again? Holding people to different standards because of skin color? Just a thought...)

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Friday, July 5, 2019 8:25 AM

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
There has never been a single instance of anything anywhere to back up any claims that Trump hates non-whites.

Except that time he said, "God I hate non-whites."

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Friday, July 5, 2019 8:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
There has never been a single instance of anything anywhere to back up any claims that Trump hates non-whites.

Except that time he said, "God I hate non-whites."

Ya don't say? And he was that polite about it too?

Video or it didn't happen.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, July 5, 2019 8:48 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
There has never been a single instance of anything anywhere to back up any claims that Trump hates non-whites.

Except that time he said, "God I hate non-whites."

Ya don't say? And he was that polite about it too?

Video or it didn't happen.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Donald Trump’s Racism: The Definitive List

JAN. 15, 2018

Donald Trump has been obsessed with race for the entire time he has been a public figure. He had a history of making racist comments as a New York real-estate developer in the 1970s and ‘80s. More recently, his political rise was built on promulgating the lie that the nation’s first black president was born in Kenya. He then launched his campaign with a speech describing Mexicans as rapists.

The media often falls back on euphemisms when describing Trump’s comments about race: racially loaded, racially charged, racially tinged, racially sensitive. And Trump himself has claimed that he is “the least racist person.” But here’s the truth: Donald Trump is a racist. He talks about and treats people differently based on their race. He has done so for years, and he is still doing so.

Here, we have attempted to compile a definitive list of his racist comments – or at least the publicly known ones.

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.
html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, July 5, 2019 9:23 AM

CC: Says Trump is racist. Backs up claim by showing a video of CNN's most racist "news" anchor saying that Trump is racist.

Hate to break it to ya, bud. Hillary started the whole birther thing. Trump ran with it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, July 5, 2019 9:29 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
CC: Says Trump is racist. Backs up claim by showing a video of CNN's most racist "news" anchor saying that Trump is racist.

Hate to break it to ya, bud. Hillary started the whole birther thing. Trump ran with it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

He began his 2016 presidential campaign with a speech disparaging Mexican immigrants as criminals and “rapists.”

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Friday, July 5, 2019 9:36 AM

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
CC: Says Trump is racist. Backs up claim by showing a video of CNN's most racist "news" anchor saying that Trump is racist.

Hate to break it to ya, bud. Hillary started the whole birther thing. Trump ran with it.

Hate to break it to you Einstein, I didn't post the vid.

You do that thing that so many low IQ supporters of Trump do (are there any other kind?): "yeah, but Hillary! But Obama!" I could give a sh*t about either of them. So all 3 are racist - whatever.

My original point was, what do you expect? For him to come out and say, "I hate non-whites?"

All he's done since he's been in office is try and keep non-whites out and deport the non-whites that are here, and attract whites. You're just lying if you don't see that.

I know, I know, you really, really don't give a sh*t - just here to waste everyone's time.

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Friday, July 5, 2019 9:40 AM

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Here, we have attempted to compile a definitive list of his racist comments – or at least the publicly known ones.

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.
html

Yeah, he's not even a little racist!

Trump’s real-estate company tried to avoid renting apartments to African-Americans in the 1970s and gave preferential treatment to whites, according to the federal government.

Trump treated black employees at his casinos differently from whites, according to multiple sources. A former hotel executive said Trump criticized a black accountant: “Black guys counting my money! I hate it. … I think that the guy is lazy. And it’s probably not his fault, because laziness is a trait in blacks.”

In 1989, Trump took out ads in New York newspapers urging the death penalty for five black and Latino teenagers accused of raping a white woman in Central Park; he argued they were guilty as late as October 2016, more than 10 years after DNA evidence had exonerated them.

In 1989, on NBC, Trump said: “I think sometimes a black may think they don’t have an advantage or this and that. I’ve said on one occasion, even about myself, if I were starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated black, because I really believe they do have an actual advantage.”

He began his 2016 presidential campaign with a speech disparaging Mexican immigrants as criminals and “rapists.”

He uses the gang MS-13 to disparage all immigrants. Among many other statements, he has suggested that Obama’s protection of the Dreamers — otherwise law-abiding immigrants who were brought to the United States illegally as children — contributed to the spread of MS-13.

In December 2015, Trump called for a “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States,” including refusing to readmit Muslim-American citizens who were outside of the country at the time.

Trump said a federal judge hearing a case about Trump University was biased because of the judge’s Mexican heritage.

In June 2017, Trump said 15,000 recent immigrants from Haiti “all have AIDS” and that 40,000 Nigerians, once seeing the United States, would never “go back to their huts” in Africa.

At the White House on Jan. 11, Trump vulgarly called for less immigration from Haiti and Africa and more from Norway.

What I don't get is why Trump supporters pretend to care about it at this point. Why don't they just say, "yeah, he's a bigot and a hard core racist - so?"

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Friday, July 5, 2019 9:43 AM

... stay crunchy...

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
There has never been a single instance of anything anywhere to back up any claims that Trump hates non-whites.

Do Right, Be Right. :)
I agree. For all of the blah-blah-blah that's brought to the board here, there hasn't been one policy that I can say is aimed at "nonwhites". People point to Trump's immigration policies and ASSUME that they're based on racism (hmmm... maybe because the ppl making the accusation are themselves racist?) but I can see other more compelling reasons (nationalism, economics, security) to implement the same policies without involving "racism" whatsoever.

And then again, Trump has killed a lot fewer faraway brown people than Obama, or Bush. Obama just got a "pass" because he's a Democrat, and black. (Is that racism, again? Holding people to different standards because of skin color? Just a thought...)

You missed something:

- No, Free Speech
- It can be both, duh. Would anyone seek asylum in the Congo?

- There totally is similarity - she was an anchor citizen.

- How would you FUND that? Real World? Remember?

- The Wall would not be $4 MORE billion, but it’s effect would be trivial. At least citizens would get help with UBI (as absurd as that is as well).

- “Enforcing the law” still takes FUNDING no matter how much you want to ignore that fact - you going to write a check?

- It’s because Trump hates non-whites that he will never $help the "shit hole" countries they come from.

- Good for you! I’d want to learn the language too.

So let me ask you on this last one:
How are you going to FUND enforcing that? How many Language Enforcment Officers will you need? How are you going to determine if someone can speak the language well enough? What are the standards? Who decides? What are you going to do if your enforcement militia determines they can’t speak to your standards? Deport? Remove a pinky? I get the feeling you haven't thought this through very far, just pumping out sound bites.

I guess I'll do what you try to and assume you agree with everything I posted since you didn't respond.

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Friday, July 5, 2019 9:44 AM

As for the NYT link?

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.
html

Let's break it down.

1. NYT makes no mistake of labeling this article "OPINION". So much so that it says it twice at the top.

2.

Quote:
Trump’s real-estate company tried to avoid renting apartments to African-Americans in the 1970s and gave preferential treatment to whites, according to the federal government.

Yup. Trump's real-estate company and every single other real-estate company in the 70's.

3.

Quote:
Trump treated black employees at his casinos differently from whites, according to multiple sources. A former hotel executive said Trump criticized a black accountant: “Black guys counting my money! I hate it. … I think that the guy is lazy. And it’s probably not his fault, because laziness is a trait in blacks.”

Hearsay. Inadmissible.

4.

Quote:
In 1989, Trump took out ads in New York newspapers urging the death penalty for five black and Latino teenagers accused of raping a white woman in Central Park; he argued they were guilty as late as October 2016, more than 10 years after DNA evidence had exonerated them.

Incidental. Read the ad. Never once does he mention the individuals the NYT article claims he is referencing, nor does he mention any race when talking about criminal behavior. On the contrary, he does say "Many New York families - White, Black, Hispanic and Asian - have had to give up the pleasure of a leisurely stroll in the Park at dusk...". Seems rather inclusive for 1989 if you ask me.

Let's not forget the "proof" article linked to him arguing they were still guilty after DNA exonerated them links to another OPINION piece. One that I can't even read because NYT wants my money to read idiot opinions. I refuse.

5.

Quote:
In 1989, on NBC, Trump said: “I think sometimes a black may think they don’t have an advantage or this and that. I’ve said on one occasion, even about myself, if I were starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated black, because I really believe they do have an actual advantage.”

Truth isn't racism. By 1989 affirmative action was already well underway. Fast forward 30 years and it's never been more true than it is today. You'll note that Trump never said it was a bad thing, mind. Just that it is what he "believes".

6.

Quote:
He began his 2016 presidential campaign with a speech disparaging Mexican immigrants as criminals and “rapists.”

Wildly taken out of context and already widely debunked. Not even worth discussing.

7.

Quote:
He uses the gang MS-13 to disparage all immigrants. Among many other statements, he has suggested that Obama’s protection of the Dreamers — otherwise law-abiding immigrants who were brought to the United States illegally as children — contributed to the spread of MS-13.

This is a thing that happened. There is a cause and effect to everything. The system, as-is, is intentionally broken and nobody seems to want to fix it. You'd never know it from listening to the MSM, but there are quite a few people of Latino descent that want the border situation fixed and also voted for Trump. Once again, nothing here is racist.

8.

Quote:
In December 2015, Trump called for a “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States,” including refusing to readmit Muslim-American citizens who were outside of the country at the time.

I think this was simplified just a tad by trying to fit it into a single sentence. This is what happens when you try to feed Cliff's Notes versions of history to the idiot masses.

9.

Quote:
Trump said a federal judge hearing a case about Trump University was biased because of the judge’s Mexican heritage.

Well... since I can't actually read the article because of the paywall, was it potentially biased because of the judge's Mexican heritage? One would have to assume that those suing him or the lawyer team involved had Mexican heritage themselves or this comment would make absolutely no sense.

Without being able to read this, I'll put this one under stupid shit that Trump tweets. Still not racist though.

And now I'm getting bored and I really have shit to do today. Maybe I'll come back to this later... assuming of course Microsoft doesn't force a restart of windows and the article is still open. Otherwise I won't be able to even read the article without paying the NYT to read their trash rag.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, July 5, 2019 9:52 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

And now I'm getting bored and I really have shit to do today. Maybe I'll come back to this later... assuming of course Microsoft doesn't force a restart of windows and the article is still open. Otherwise I won't be able to even read the article without paying the NYT to read their trash rag.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

The NYT labels articles as "opinion" when it happened sometime other than yesterday, since it is not "new" or "news". If you open the NYT link in private window, you don't need worry about their limit of 10 "free" articles per month. Try it:
www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.
html

At a June 2016 campaign rally, Trump pointed to one attendee and said: “Oh, look at my African-American over here. Look at him.”

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, July 5, 2019 12:40 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

CC: Didn't miss it, Just too busy to reply, most of which wasn't worth replying to anyway.

Quote:

You missed something:

- No, Free Speech

OK, so you can continue to irrationality hate onTrump and I can continue to logically work through the causes and possible solutions of some of our national problems. Good to know!

Quote:
It can be both, duh. Would anyone seek asylum in the Congo?- CC

Well, if you were in Rwanda during the height of the massacre, the Congo might look like an infinitely safer place. The pickier someone is about their chosen bolthole, the less compelling their claims of politically-motivated violence.

Quote:
There totally is similarity - she was an anchor citizen.- CC

They are now naturalized citizens of the USA. If they could become citizens, why are so many parents of "anchor babies" not?

Quote:
How would you FUND that? Real World? Remember?

Thru the Federal budget, like any other program is funded. Heck, some people are all willing to blow thru a trillion dollars (That's a "thousand billion" for anyone who is counting) without regard for "real world" consequences, I have not yet heard you make a peep about the Federal deficit. But we can imagine, for example, that troop reductions abroad would lead to budgetary savings at home.
If you're saying that the Democrats in Congress wouldn't allow such a thing ... well, Republicans won't allow Medicare for all and they're both stupid. It still doens't mean that my proposal doesn't make sense.

Quote:
The Wall would not be $4 MORE billion, but it’s effect would be trivial. At least citizens would get help with UBI (as absurd as that is as well).- CC

If you think that walls are trivial, why don't you just leave the doors to your house open? Sure, a locked door won't deter a REALLY determined thief, but it WILL deter the vast majority. Other nations don't seem to find the effect of THEIR walls "trivial".

Quote:
“Enforcing the law” still takes FUNDING no matter how much you want to ignore that fact - you going to write a check? -CC

Again, you DO know that there's a budget for law enforcement, right? And it's a relatively small one, but - more importantly- it falls under DHS. So why not take the money used to fund all of the illegal data collection acivities that DHS is running (like pulling the plug on the ginormous data center in Utah) and turn it instead to immigration enforcement?

We're discussing (or, I thought we were discussing) whether or not the policies that I suggest make sense, not whether it's politically impossible because Congresspeople are idiots.

Quote:
- It’s because Trump hates non-whites that he will never $help the "shit hole" countries they come from.

FIRST, DO NO HARM. If he can refrain from bombing the snot out of other "brown people" nations (like Obama and GWB did) we will be a million people and light-years ahead of where we are now.

Quote:
Good for you! I’d want to learn the language too.

So, why does someone in this country for 40 years NOT learn the language?

Quote:
So let me ask you on this last one:
How are you going to FUND enforcing that? How many Language Enforcement Officers will you need? How are you going to determine if someone can speak the language well enough? What are the standards? Who decides? What are you going to do if your enforcement militia determines they can’t speak to your standards? Deport? Remove a pinky? I get the feeling you haven't thought this through very far, just pumping out sound bites.- CC

There are several parts to this: There are people who're here illegally. They should be deported, whether or not they speak English. I will take a guess and say that will eliminate most of the non=English-speaking people here.
There are people here legally on visas (tourist, student, business etc. They have no requirement to speak English, altho many of them do.
And then there are citizens. They are BY LAW ALREADY REQUIRED TO SPEAK ENGLISH TO OBTAIN CITIZENSHIP. By making English the official language of the USA, all it means is that official documents only need to be provided in English. You don't need language police (like the Quebecois do). I WOULD say, however, the the State of CA should stop helpfully providing election materials in 12 different languages, since only citizens can vote and citizens (presumably) speak English.

Quote:
I guess I'll do what you try to and assume you agree with everything I posted since you didn't respond.

Didn't miss it, like I said just too busy to reply, most of which wasn't worth replying to anyway.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Friday, July 5, 2019 3:45 PM

... stay crunchy...

SIG4BRAINS: Didn't miss it, Just too busy to reply, most of which wasn't worth replying to anyway.
- I love how you inspire discussion.

Yanno, most all of your replies below are just flat out pretty damn stupid. I mean, brain dead stupid. And that's what we see from almost all of the pro-Trump supporters on this board. Lies, deflection, idiocy - it's the only way to ignore the obvious is to construct a phony responses. Nothing new!

SIG4BRAINS: OK, so you can continue to irrationality hate onTrump and I can continue to logically work through the causes and possible solutions of some of our national problems. Good to know!
- he's the most powerful single human on the planet, so yes, I will continue to rationally expect more from him and not be satisfied until he's out of office. Pretty stupid - or telling - that you don't find that important as well.

SIG4BRAINS: Well, if you were in Rwanda during the height of the massacre, the Cpngp might look like an infinitely safer place. The pickier someone is about their chosen bolthole, the less compelling their claims of politically-motivated violence.
- Welp, they're in Mexico, not Rwanda. Kinda the point.

SIG4BRAINS: They are now naturalized citizens of the USA. If they could become citizens, why are so many parrents (sic) of "anchor babies" not?
- so like I said, a lot like Melanie - thanks for agreeing. Nice deflection about the parents.

SIG4BRAINS: Thru the Federal budget, like any other program is funded. Heck, you're all willing to blow thru a trillion dollars (That's a "thousand billion" for anyone who is counting without regard for "real world" consequences, I have not yet heard you make a peep about the Federal deficit. But we can imagine, for example, that troop reductions abroad would lead to budgetary savings at home.
If you're saying that the Democrats in Congress wouldn't allow such a thing ... well, Republicans won't allow Medicare for all and they're both stupid. It still doens't mean that my proposal doesn't make sense.
- I made lots of peeps about the federal budget, even ringing the bell once for a federal balanced budget amendment. I guess you were too busy.

SIG4BRAINS: If you think that walls are trivial, why don't you just leave the doors to your house opne? Sure, a locked door won't deter a REALLY determined thief, but it WILL deter the vast majority. Other nations don't seem to find the effect of THEIR walls "trivial".
- like I said, the sh*t you post is pretty stupid. I already posted one linked article about why Donald's wall won't work - in this thread even. Guess you didn't read it. And his motivation isn't even about getting one - it's about using it to foment anger towards brown people from the south - that is also pretty obvious.

SIG4BRAINS: Again, you DO know that there's a budget for law enforcement, right? And it's a relatively samll one, but - more importnatly- it falls under DHS. So why not take the money used to fund all of the illegal data collection acivities that DHS is running (like pulling the plug on the ginormous data center in Utah) and turn it instead to immigration enforcment?
- Ok, sure! Make it so! Pizza every day!

SIG4BRAINS: We're discussing (or, I thought we were discussing) whether or not the policies that I suggest make sense, not whether it's politically impossible because Congresspeople are idiots.
- they don't make sense to me.I thought that was obvious. I live in the real world where just spitballing is a waste of time, especially grating when someone wants to act like they have all the answers. Understanding FUNDING seems to be the real snag for you. Also, just understanding that under our current political system, what can seem logical and obvious solution - even extremely popular with a huge majority of citizens - doesn't mean it will or can happen.

SIG4BRAINS: FIRST, DO NO HARM. If he can refrain from bombing the snot out of other "brown people" nations, like Obama and GWB did, we will a million people and light-years ahead of where we are now.
- your response has nothing to do with my challenge. Nice deflection.

SIG4BRAINS: So, why does someone in this country for 40 years NOT learn the language?
- they never felt the need to would be my best guess.

SIG4BRAINS: There are several parts to this: There are people who're here illegally. They should be deported, whether or not they speak English. I will take a guess and say that will eliminate most of the non=English-speaking people here.
There are people here legally on visas (tourist, student, business etc. They have no requirement to speak English, altho many of them do.
And then there are citizens. They are BY LAW ALREADY REQUIRED TO SPEAK ENGLISH TO OBTAIN CITIZENSHIP. By making English the official language of the USA, al itmeans is that official documents only need to be provided in English. You don't need language police (like the Quebecois do). I WOULD say, however, the the State ofCA should stop helpfully providing election materials in 12 different languages, since only citizens can vote and citizens (presumably) speak English.
- so will you provide free English language classes? And it still sounds facist as hell to me.

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Friday, July 5, 2019 5:09 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Didn't miss it, Just too busy to reply, most of which wasn't worth replying to anyway.-SIGNY

- I love how you inspire discussion. Yanno, most all of your replies below are just flat out pretty damn stupid. I mean, brain dead stupid. And that's what we see from almost all of the pro-Trump supporters on this board. Lies, deflection, idiocy - it's the only way to ignore the obvious is to construct a phony responses. Nothing new!- cc

We were doing pretty well DISCUSSING THE ISSUES, and that was unnecessary snark on my part. But besides calling me "stupid" you haven't refuted a single point. So, let's get back to discussing the issues if at all possible.

Quote:
OK, so you can continue to irrationality hate on Trump and I can continue to logically work through the causes and possible solutions of some of our national problems. Good to know!- SIGNY

- he's the most powerful single human on the planet, so yes, I will continue to rationally expect more from him and not be satisfied until he's out of office. Pretty stupid - or telling - that you don't find that important as well.-cc

The focus on Trump as a Putin stooge was fully irrational. The focus on his tax returns, his orange skin, pink hair, etc. is pretty pointless, AS IS THE IDEA OF IMPEACHMENT - which is just plain not gonna happen. And the idea that Trump is a "racist" which is, as far as I know, just that- an idea. There are a lot of POLICY reasons to criticize Trump but so far you haven't hit on many rational ones. That I don't immediately jump onboard with your irrational reactions doesn't mean I find Trump "unimportant". Instead of (wrongly) telling me what I think - and then snarking about your (wrong) assumptions- why don't you just respond to what I've posted? discussion will go a lot more smoothly that way.

Quote:
Well, if you were in Rwanda during the height of the massacre, the Congo might look like an infinitely safer place. The pickier someone is about their chosen bolthole, the less compelling their claims of politically-motivated violence. -SIGNY
-
Welp, they're in Mexico, not Rwanda. Kinda the point.-cc

Yes indeed, they are in Mexico! So, what political violence are they fleeing, exactly? Yes, I know- Mexico, like so many Central American nations- is overwhelmed by its drug cartels. But generalized violence was NOT the reason to create political asylum.

Quote:
They are now naturalized citizens of the USA. If they could become citizens, why are so many parrents (sic) of "anchor babies" not?- SIGNY

- so like I said, a lot like Melanie - thanks for agreeing. Nice deflection about the parents.-cc

I haven't agreed to anything. I still don't understand your point. What WAS your point? It was a response to me getting rid of "birthright citizenship", and you seem to be focusing on chained migration (which I also want to get rid of). Be clear.

Quote:
Thru the Federal budget, like any other program is funded. Heck, you're all willing to blow thru a trillion dollars (That's a "thousand billion" for anyone who is counting without regard for "real world" consequences, I have not yet heard you make a peep about the Federal deficit. But we can imagine, for example, that troop reductions abroad would lead to budgetary savings at home.

If you're saying that the Democrats in Congress wouldn't allow such a thing ... well, Republicans won't allow Medicare for all and they're both stupid. It still doesn't mean that my proposal doesn't make sense.- SIGNY

- I made lots of peeps about the federal budget, even ringing the bell once

Once?

Quote:
for a federal balanced budget amendment. I guess you were too busy.-cc

Wow, yeah. Once? More? quotes and links please.

Quote:
If you think that walls are trivial, why don't you just leave the doors to your house opne? Sure, a locked door won't deter a REALLY determined thief, but it WILL deter the vast majority. Other nations don't seem to find the effect of THEIR walls "trivial".
- like I said, the sh*t you post is pretty stupid. I already posted one linked article about why Donald's wall won't work -

As KIKI pointed out, the article said the idea was "untested", not that it wouldn't work

Quote:
in this thread even. Guess you didn't read it. And his motivation isn't even about getting one - it's about using it to foment anger towards brown people from the south - that is also pretty obvious.-cc

You're wrong about me being a "russian troll" and wrong about Trump being a "Putin puppet" so why should I think that you're suddenly an expert on Trump's motivations? Guessing people's motivations is always fraught with bias and almost always wrong Let's continue to talk problems and policy solutions. It's more productive that way

Quote:
Again, you DO know that there's a budget for law enforcement, right? And it's a relatively small one, but - more importnatly- it falls under DHS. So why not take the money used to fund all of the illegal data collection activities that DHS is running (like pulling the plug on the ginormous data center in Utah) and turn it instead to immigration enforcement?- SIGNY
- Ok, sure! Make it so! Pizza every day!- CC

Well, AT THIS POINT YOU HAVE COMPLETELY GIVEN UP ON DISCUSSING THE ISSUES.

We are ... or we should be ... talking about WHAT MAKES SENSE. Have we properly identified a problem? have we figured out the cause(s)? Can we propose effective solutions that address the problem and don't make any other problems (like the budget deficit) worse? THE IDEA IS TO HOLD WASHINGTON'S ACTIONS UP TO A STANDARD AND SEE HOW FAR OFF THE RAILS THEY'RE GOING, NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE SAME PARTISAN CLUSTERFUCK. BECAUSE IN THE REAL REAL WORLD THE POLITICAL BULLSHIT THAT CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT ENGAGE IN ONLY GOES SO FAR IN EVADING REAL REAL-LIFE CONSEQUENCES.

Quote:
We're discussing (or, I thought we were discussing) whether or not the policies that I suggest make sense, not whether it's politically impossible because Congresspeople are idiots. - SIGNY

- they don't make sense to me. I thought that was obvious. I live in the real world where just spitballing is a waste of time, especially grating when someone wants to act like they have all the answers.

This is a thread about what YOU would choose as a platform, not what "THEY" are willing to "let" you do. IT'S AN EXERCISE IN THINKING.

Quote:
Understanding FUNDING seems to be the real snag for you.-cc

No, I understand funding just fine. That's why I look for ways to fund Medicare For All, to save money on the military and the spook state, why UBI doesn't make the cut, and why we need to improve our manufacturing base and raise taxes on the rich.

Quote:
Also, just understanding that under our current political system, what can seem logical and obvious solution - even extremely popular with a huge majority of citizens - doesn't mean it will or can happen.- CC

Can you honestly say, CC, that MORE OF THE SAME will do anything other than continue the problems that we have?

Quote:
FIRST, DO NO HARM. If he can refrain from bombing the snot out of other "brown people" nations, like Obama and GWB did, we will a million people and light-years ahead of where we are now.
- your response has nothing to do with my challenge. Nice deflection.-CC

I have spent countless words explaining exactly WHY it answers your challenge. Many times. So tell me WHY it's a "deflection" and be prepared to be specific.

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So, why does someone in this country for 40 years NOT learn the language? =SIGNY
- they never felt the need to would be my best guess. -cc

Yep, so maybe if hey faced the prospect of "become a citizen and learn the language or be deported" they've find the motivation. There is btw a pervasive feeling amongst illegal immigrants that since "el norte" has stolen so much from them "el norte" owes them something.

Quote:
There are several parts to this: There are people who're here illegally. They should be deported, whether or not they speak English. I will take a guess and say that will eliminate most of the non=English-speaking people here.
There are people here legally on visas (tourist, student, business etc. They have no requirement to speak English, altho many of them do.
And then there are citizens. They are BY LAW ALREADY REQUIRED TO SPEAK ENGLISH TO OBTAIN CITIZENSHIP. By making English the official language of the USA, all it means is that official documents only need to be provided in English. You don't need language police (like the Quebecois do). I WOULD say, however, the the State of CA should stop helpfully providing election materials in 12 different languages, since only citizens can vote and citizens (presumably) speak English. -SIGNY
- so will you provide free English language classes? And it still sounds facist as hell to me.-CC

My mom's family, my dad, and my husband's family were dumped into an English=speaking culture and there was nobody there to hold their hand and help them learn English and by god, they learned English in a year. Bilingualism just delays when children learn the new language. This "requirement" of free English classes is UNNECESSSARY.

But sure, why not? If people can't learn the language well enough in the course however long it takes to become a citizen, even with classes, I would not hesitate booting them out.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Friday, July 5, 2019 5:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
- I love how you inspire discussion. Yanno, most all of your replies below are just flat out pretty damn stupid. I mean, brain dead stupid. And that's what we see from almost all of the pro-Trump supporters on this board. Lies, deflection, idiocy - it's the only way to ignore the obvious is to construct a phony responses. Nothing new!

With all your name-calling and lies, I love how you inspire discussion, too! Quite inspirational!

Quote:
Originally posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
- he's the most powerful single human on the planet ... and he's the cause of EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM THE ENTIRE PLANET HAS !!!!! Which is why I REFUSE to discuss issues!

fify

Quote:
Originally posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
- Welp, they're in Mexico, not Rwanda. Kinda the point.

But they're overwhelmingly *from* NOT MEXICO. At least, according to the news over the past year. So why don't they stay in NOT their country of origin, like Mexico? Yanno, if just getting out is the goal. Why will the US and ONLY the US do?

Quote:
Originally posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
- I made lots of peeps about the federal budget, even ringing the bell once for a federal balanced budget amendment. I guess you were too busy.

Then I expect LOTS of quotes - and links. Otherwise, it didn't happen.

Quote:
Originally posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
- like I said, the sh*t you post is pretty stupid ... AND THAT"S HOW I MAKE MY CASE AND *PROMOTE* DISCUSSION. With ad hominem attacks!

fify

Quote:
posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
I already posted one linked article about why Donald's wall won't work - in this thread even. AND THAT'S HOW I MAKE MY CASE AND *PROMOTE* DISCUSSION. ... by misrepresenting articles I post! Like THIS!

fify

Quote:
posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
Guess you didn't read it ... and by snark, like THIS!

fify
BTW *I* did. Read it. The author characterizes the ideas as 'untested', not unworkable. That's what happens when YOU only read the title.

Quote:
posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
And by attributing motivations I can't possibly know! Like THIS!!! And his motivation isn't even about getting one - it's about using it to foment anger towards brown people from the south - that is also pretty obvious.

fify

Quote:
posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
And by posting idiotic snark as if it was meaningful! Look at THIS!- Ok, sure! Make it so! Pizza every day!

fify

Quote:
posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
And by refusing to discuss anything and pretending to have knowledge I *CAN'T ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATE* - like THIS!
I live in the real world where just spitballing is a waste of time, especially grating when someone wants to act like they have all the answers. Understanding FUNDING seems to be the real snag for you. Also, just understanding that under our current political system, what can seem logical and obvious solution - even extremely popular with a huge majority of citizens - doesn't mean it will or can happen.

fify

Quote:
posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
And changing the topic, like THIS!!
- your response has nothing to do with my challenge. Nice deflection.

fify

Quote:
posted by CEREAL-MUSH-BRAINZ:
And posting yet MORE snark to avoid discussion - Like THIS!!- so will you provide free English language classes?

fify

And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Sunday, July 7, 2019 7:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

CC - I responded in detail to your post.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Sunday, July 7, 2019 9:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

And now I'm getting bored and I really have shit to do today. Maybe I'll come back to this later... assuming of course Microsoft doesn't force a restart of windows and the article is still open. Otherwise I won't be able to even read the article without paying the NYT to read their trash rag.

Do Right, Be Right. :)
The NYT labels articles as "opinion" when it happened sometime other than yesterday, since it is not "new" or "news".

I'd LOVE to see where they actually say that is their definition of OPINION. Needless to say, that is not the ACTUAL definition of opinion, and they are purposefully misusing the word if this is how they define it.

Quote:
At a June 2016 campaign rally, Trump pointed to one attendee and said: “Oh, look at my African-American over here. Look at him.”
(Youtube link removed from quote since it messes up the page formatting. Look to Second's original post above.)

This actually gave me a chuckle. I'm surprised I'd never seen this before and that it wasn't played every single night on CNN for 3 months straight.

That wasn't racism. Obviously he meant "his african american supporter" that he was pointing to, but it could easily be taken out of context to sound like he had "ownership" of the person, since he phrased it as a possessive.

It was just a pretty cringe moment, to be sure. The type of stuff that is almost unavoidable for white male politicians in 2019, yanno, being forced to essentially say things like "I have black friends", and then being roasted afterward for saying it, even though they would have been equally roasted for never having said it. It's just a lose/lose world for white males right now. Especially politicians, or anybody with high profile careers.

Quote:
If you open the NYT link in private window, you don't need worry about their limit of 10 "free" articles per month. Try it:
www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.
html

This is actually a great tip that EVERYBODY HERE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF. Thanks, Second.

I can't believe that works. My first thought is, how did the NYT overlook this? My second thought is wanting to know what is different in the coding of how private windows are handled as opposed to non-private windows and how this could be exploited elsewhere. Ad blockers today have been neutered because they are being forced to slowly not block ads anymore by more and more sites. I'm looking forward to the day that a new hacker group that doesn't give a shit comes around and brings us a new one that works right. (You can actually set up a raspberry pi box attached to your router that will do a really good job of this, but it's not for the novice and it does come with its own pitfalls).

In any case, I will always at least try this when I'm being blocked by a paywall at one of these papers in the future. NYT is hardly the only website that does it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, July 7, 2019 1:49 PM