Yep, this is what going mad feels like. by Fremdfirma

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay, I get it. It was "He would then proceed to tell them" that threw me off, plus the fact that he pointed a loaded gun at somebody. I couldn't tell where reality ended and where his narrative began. I assumed (silly me) that nobody would be foolish enough to draw a loaded weapon at a party.

I know from personal experience that alcohol and guns don't mix, because I was at a party where someone (not me) accidentally discharged a weapon while showing it off.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 4:32 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Talking of anecdotes, I have one recounted to me from a colleague, from time he spent on joint operations embedded with an American unit. After a night out he another Brit and a few of the American went back to a Marine sergeants home, who insisted on showing off his small armoury, by dolling the weapons out to the group of pissed up squadies. After being handed a Magnum my colleague had the presence of mind to ask if they were loaded. I'm not sure which strikes me as worse, the fact that loaded firearms were dished out to a group of drunk blokes, that the guy dishing them out didn't know they were loaded or not, or that a Marine sergeant couldn't see anything wrong with that.

Citizen,

Well, this goes to show me that it's not 'a cultural issue' at all. It may very well be a training issue, and it seems like the training your Brit friend got is no better than the training the American Sergeant got.

I am a product of America, Citizen. I received American culture from Birth. I was also trained, since I was old enough to have a conversation, about gun safety. I'd had years of 'gun safety' training before I ever picked up a piece. I wish American culture, at large, included gun safety training right alongside Sesame Street. But it doesn't. I got my safety training from Dad, not from any standard cultural phenomenon. He did eventually take me to professionally trained gun courses as I got older, but they only reiterated what I'd already learned.

There is one question you never need to ask:
"Is it Loaded?"

The answer is yes, it is loaded.

If I unload it right in front of you, and I hand it to you...

It is loaded.

If you unload it and look away, and then look back at it...

It is loaded.

If you unload it and put it in an Iron Safe to which only you know the combination, and then take it out five minutes later...

It is loaded.

You see, there are invisible demonic pixies who go around all day, loading unloaded weapons. They can load a weapon in the blink of an eye, and no enclosure can stop them.

Just to be safe, even after you've unloaded a weapon and double checked it, you should keep it pointed in a direction of minimum carnage. The pixies are tricky.

And if you hand a stored weapon to someone, and they ask if it's loaded, then take the weapon back, unload it if you'd like to 'try' to store it unloaded, and put it away. They obviously haven't been taught about the pixies.

As an aside, these same pixies unload guns you want to keep loaded, so you should periodically check those, too... only for the opposite reason.

Gun Pixies. Damnit, I need to write a children's book about it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 5:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Is it wrong that I am laughing at that ?

But yeah, SOP is that it's loaded, an unloaded weapon is just a club, and if you need one of THOSE, just yank one off a tree.

I don't show my piece to nobody, by choice, although Cit has a point about the ego aspect of it for some folk - I avoid those people, they tend to put holes in things they don't mean to, and I would rather one of those things not be me.

What I got, it ain't pretty, but it's properly maintained, so far, spring replacements are getting tougher to find, old as it is, and being that it's carried loaded, the magazine and springs are replaced on a regular cycle...

I kinda dread the inevitable day that I'll have to replace it, cause familiarity gives me a pretty sharp edge on accuracy - however, outside the range the only person likely to ever even SEE my piece is a would-be assailant staring at the smoking muzzle wondering what just hit him.

It's NOT a toy, and everyone knowing you carry it kind of defeats the purpose of CCW, if you ask me - it's not something to show off, wave around or play games with, it's a last ditch measure to defend your very life with, and barring maintainence, until that moment, it stays in it's holster, period.

I don't hunt, shoot for sport, or collect em, although I have friends that do, and I really dislike being handed a weapon by one of them to have a look, or check it out, if we're not on the range - I drop the mag, clear the chamber and set it down pointing in a safe direction, after a while they get the point, or I stop comin over.

I don't understand the fear of a mere tool, and yanno, I don't understand the fascination neither - it's JUST a tool, no more and no less than a power drill or some kitchen widget, and every tool to it's purpose.

So... I don't really understand why folk play with em so, you'll have to forgive my incomprehension there.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 7:53 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by AntonyT:
Well, this goes to show me that it's not 'a cultural issue' at all. It may very well be a training issue, and it seems like the training your Brit friend got is no better than the training the American Sergeant got.

He's a work colleague, and you're going to have to do better than the cute "gun pixie" diatribe to show that asking "Is this loaded", in disbelief that anyone would be that stupid to hand loaded weapons to a group of drunk squadies, is in anyway comparable to someone actually handing loaded weapons to drunk squadies

.

He asked "is it loaded" just because he did assume that it was, but also expected a USMC Sergeant to have some semblance of competency with weapons. Also, if someone is handing out loaded weapons to a group of drunk men the best course of action is to try to draw attention to that, and asking "is it loaded" seems as good away as any. If you tell someone they're making a mistake or doing something wrong, they tend to get defensive, ask them a question and they tend to think about what they're doing.

Quote:
I am a product of America, Citizen. I received American culture from Birth.

That's great, but it doesn't prove there isn't something inherent within American culture that promotes ambivalence toward gun safety. There is, after all, French people who aren't snooty and self-righteous.

Quote:
I wish American culture, at large, included gun safety training right alongside Sesame Street.

That's not what I mean about culture, I thought I stated it though its possible I didn't (I'm using a pocket pc, and inputting text using a stylus and poor handwriting recognition program is, frankly a pain in the arse). The Finnish, I remember someone (possibly Frem) using them as an example of a place with lots of guns, but little gun crime. That somewhat refutes the idea that widespread gun ownership is the cause of increased gun crime, so what are the variables that are different between Finland and the US? We can assume that both countries are populated by Humans I think, and the Finnish don't run gun safety along side episodes of the Moomins. Really the only factor left speaks to culture, and how that culture views guns and gun ownership. Americans see gun-ownership as a RIGHT! While Fins see it as a privilege, perhaps?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 11:49 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
The guy doing the demonstration was a firearms expert, not a firearms safety expert.

Firearms expert and firearms safety expert are the same thing, at least they should be. Anyone who is not a firearms safety expert, has no business being called a firearms expert, dangerous amateur would be a more appropriate term.

Talking of anecdotes, I have one recounted to me from a colleague, from time he spent on joint operations embedded with an American unit. After a night out he another Brit and a few of the American went back to a Marine sergeants home, who insisted on showing off his small armoury, by dolling the weapons out to the group of pissed up squadies. After being handed a Magnum my colleague had the presence of mind to ask if they were loaded. I'm not sure which strikes me as worse, the fact that loaded firearms were dished out to a group of drunk blokes, that the guy dishing them out didn't know they were loaded or not, or that a Marine sergeant couldn't see anything wrong with that.

I agree with you completely that expert/safety should go together, but because of the casual attitude some Americans have towards guns often this isn't the case. I have witnessed many well trained in firearms safety disregard the rules because they think their skill makes an accident less likely.

I once had a police Sergeant tell me that he had to cover up for some of his men when he was called to a bar because gunshots had been heard. He arrive to find his men sitting at the bar in uniform shooting bottles off the back of the bar. I wouldn't have believed his story but I personally witnessed him drink a 1/5th of whiskey and then jump in his police car and take off.

As much as I believe in firearms safety. I think it's safer to have someone trained in firearms safety point a loaded gun at you than it is to just be in the same room with an untrained person with a loaded gun.

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 12:11 PM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
There is, after all, French people who aren't snooty and self-righteous.

I met them once... nice couple.

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 4:14 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Really the only factor left speaks to culture, and how that culture views guns and gun ownership. Americans see gun-ownership as a RIGHT! While Fins see it as a privilege, perhaps?

Hello,

I don't know anything about Finnish culture, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they start educating their children about safety and responsibility in regards to firearms from the moment the kid can understand language.

Every American I know who shows exemplary gun handling is one who started learning when they were itty bitty. I'm sure there are good examples in the 'learned gun safety after I grew up' category, but I don't think you can beat training that starts in youth. That's when mental attitudes are forged.

And for the record, there are a plethora of Americans who see gun-ownership as a RIGHT! And who also understand that gun handling carries great RESPONSIBILITY!

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 12:31 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I don't know anything about Finnish culture, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they start educating their children about safety and responsibility in regards to firearms from the moment the kid can understand language.

Yeah, Anthony I'm pretty sure I've stated VERY clearly that teaching gun safety at primary school isn't what I mean by culture. I've stated this in plain language, and I'll state it one more time: by culture I mean American attitude to guns, not some gun safety cartoon for the under fives. I don't know why you're hung up on this, I think I've been clear here.

Quote:
And for the record, there are a plethora of Americans who see gun-ownership as a RIGHT! And who also understand that gun handling carries great RESPONSIBILITY!

And there's French people who don't eat snails, doesn't mean its not part of French culture to scour the bottom of the garden for their dinner.

Seems there's a lot of Americans that see it as a RIGHT! that is just there, not something they have to respect.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 4:10 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Citizen,

I guess where we are missing each other is here:

I think cultural attitudes are formed in youth, and passed down by elders.

I don't know where you think cultural attitudes come from.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 6:15 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Kirk

Where did you learn your grammar ?

"He would then proceed to tell them that they were dead because he did not hesitate to pull the trigger like they did." In other words, you are saying that your friend was demonstrating what he would do if confronted. And what he would do, according to his own description, was blah blah blah.

So yeah, he's still a doofus. You too, btw.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 6:23 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I think cultural attitudes are formed in youth, and passed down by elders."

In cultures where there's no alternative that's probably true. Either you do as your elders say or you can go and live in the Kalahari on your own. When you live in our village you do as we say. If you don't like it you can leave.

But in today's modern culture kids are raised to a large degree by TV and the opinions of their peers which are also formed by TV. It's completely pervasive. If you think that's not true, just consider what people have resorted to, to raise their kids 'untainted' by the rest of society.

For me the question is - whether as a society we cede control of our social values to self-interested vendors. And why do we think they should run our lives, anyway ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 6:39 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Rue, Im surprised at you. Here I had you pegged as a "the government-should-be-our-babysitter" type.

Could it be that you are coming around to the Independant way of thinking? The we should be free to think, say, and protect ourselves as we wish? That freedom from oppression is what this country truly needs right now?

That how we raise our children is our business?

Good grief, there may be hope yet.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 6:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The difference between the United States and other nations with high gun ownership- but low gun crime - (Finland, Canada, Switzerland etc.) are myriad. But the critical differencIMHO are:

People in the USA are accustomed to thinking that the only avenue available to them is individual action. Even Canadians have more of a cooperative ethic than the USA. Quite frankly I think this attitude makes Americans weak, because we are reduced to fighting the powers that be as individuals. For example, owning a gun is about as meaningful to your personal freedom as owning a toaster-oven. But you've all bought the myth, and are satisfied with it.

People in the USA are accustomed to thinking that violence can be righteous. A lot of our movies end in a bloodbath of righteous violence. Plop that message into our culture of self-defeating individualism and you get gun crime.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 6:58 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I think cultural attitudes are formed in youth, and passed down by elders."

In cultures where there's no alternative that's probably true. Either you do as your elders say or you can go and live in the Kalahari on your own. When you live in our village you do as we say. If you don't like it you can leave.

But in today's modern culture kids are raised to a large degree by TV and the opinions of their peers which are also formed by TV. It's completely pervasive. If you think that's not true, just consider what people have resorted to, to raise their kids 'untainted' by the rest of society.

For me the question is - whether as a society we cede control of our social values to self-interested vendors. And why do we think they should run our lives, anyway ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Rue,

If all that's true, where did my cultural values come from? I mean, unless we've decided I'm the cultural standard Yahoo Yank with no sense of responsibility...

Or maybe it's my hispanic heritage? Perhaps good hispanic values passed on through generations whitewashed the negative American values right out of me...

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 9:02 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Citizen,

I guess where we are missing each other is here:

I think cultural attitudes are formed in youth, and passed down by elders.

I don't know where you think cultural attitudes come from.

Pretty much there, but I'm not talking about education in safety from a young age, I'm talking about the cultural attitude toward guns. I think the American attitude toward them is that they're a god given right, when I think it should be a privilege you have to work for and respect. People tend to respect something more if they have to earn it, than if it's something they should just have, is my point.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
If all that's true, where did my cultural values come from? I mean, unless we've decided I'm the cultural standard Yahoo Yank with no sense of responsibility...

Or maybe it's my hispanic heritage? Perhaps good hispanic values passed on through generations whitewashed the negative American values right out of me...

Cultural values aren't a set in stone system for making everyone the same, they'll influence trends, but not defiantly make all Americans to lack the required respect for firearms.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 10:31 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"where did my cultural values come from?"

Obviously you speak english, so that is at least one value that came from elsewhere than your hispanic background. Do you speak Spanish ? Assuming your (hispanic) background was catholic, do you go to catholic mass every sunday ? And if your background was NOT catholic, at what point did your family line break with tradition ? What other hispanic traditions went by the wayside ? How did that happen ?

As (polish) american, I don't have all the 'traditional' polish values I was raised with. And my upbringing was fairly isolated from the mainstream. I went to a (polish american) church, attended a (polish american) school, listened to (polish american) radio and music, interacted with my extended (polish american) family, and didn't watch (american) TV till the ripe old age of 12. If I had acquired all of my values from my family, I'd be indistinguishable from someone from Warsaw. At some point at least a few of my values blended with my those of my peers and the larger culture around me.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 11:38 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Kirk

Where did you learn your grammar ?

"He would then proceed to tell them that they were dead because he did not hesitate to pull the trigger like they did." In other words, you are saying that your friend was demonstrating what he would do if confronted. And what he would do, according to his own description, was blah blah blah.

So yeah, he's still a doofus. You too, btw.
***************************************************************

I don't even really have a good idea of what grammar is. I'm sure if I knew I would complement you on your excellent grammar. But it seems like good grammar doesn't keep you from sounding like an idiot most of the time, so I think I'll just carry on in ignorant bliss.

Kirkules(the doofus)

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Wednesday, January 9, 2008 4:24 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'd be hard pressed to put an iron lock on the definition of my culture, but I certainly see it as mostly 'American' with regional bias. (I lived in a city adjacent to Miami most of my life, and there is a distinct flavor in that region that is absent from much of the rest of Florida.)

My parents came to this country when they were kids. Their parents had a strong desire to become Americans, and to embrace US ways and means. You might say they were running TO something rather than AWAY from something. They were probably the last generation of legal immigrants to come from Cuba. My parents learned English quickly, made American friends, danced to Rock and Roll, and enjoyed Pizza and Cheeseburgers whenever they could.

Yet simultaneously, they spoke Spanish at home and never lost their taste for fine Cuban homecooked meals. Goya was a staple food brand in both my grandparent's and parent's houses. (All Cuban families know that 'If it's Goya, it's got to be good!' TM)

For my own part, the Spanish language was not emphasized in my home growing up. I learned enough to communicate basic concepts, but I speak the language with the eloquence of a seven-year-old. Even that level of knowledge got me some jobs during my early youth, when I beat out completely monolingal rivals to job opportunities.

The things I remember most about my upbringing usually involve my father as the 'hero' figure of my life. He worked in city government, and spent his entire career catching hell for fighting corruption. He had a good job, but he lost countless opportunities for promotion due to the fact that he and the mayor had an adversarial relationship.

My Dad had some old fashioned ideas. He had a library at home of odd books, "How to plant a farm, how to make a chair, how to make potable water, how to XYZ." When I was very young I asked him why he had all these strange books that didn't seem to match his interests. He explained to me that after the world governments were destroyed in the WWIII nuclear exchange with Russia and China, it would be important to know how to do many things for ourselves that we currently take for granted. "The book," he told me once, "shows you how to plant the seeds for a farm. The rifle lets you protect the farm."

Yet this paranoid view of tomorrow never impacted my father's demeanor. He really embraced the idea of preparing for the worst and then letting all worry slide away. He was jovial and content and hard working and honest. And we always had food during a post-storm power outage. And we always had light. And we always had gas for the car. He always had the right gadget or procedure to handle whatever minor emergency came up. It was good to grow up in the house of a Swiss Army Dad.

And there was a gun secreted in every room of the house. And he took me on a tour to make sure I knew where each one was. And if he moved one, he told me where he moved it to.

There were no locks on any of the guns, and they were always loaded.

And today they call that crazy and irresponsible, but from the time I could talk I remember the gun lessons. I hear other kids ended up shooting friends and family and creating all manner of mayhem, but somehow I didn't. I remember being appalled when the earliest school shootings started to happen. It took me a while to wrap my brain around the idea that someone would do that. It was an alien concept.

And every time I heard that some idiot blew his head off while cleaning a gun, or some kid shot his friend with his father's gun, or whatever the gun tragedy of the month was, I remember shaking my head at that, too.

But other than the effort my father took to train me, I can't really say what made me different from those other kids. I'll never really know what was in the head of a teenager who stole the family guns, went to school, and started slaughtering people wholesale.

And it likewise was difficult for me to understand why people wanted to take my guns away because of what that person did. Where did they see the connection between me and that guy? Why did they want to punish me because of him? It's almost the supreme form of 'ism' in modern society. Gunism. Anyone with a gun is bad. It's not the content of their character that matters, but rather the firearm. A gun is just too horrible for people to be trusted with it. Like Pandora's Box, it can only spawn evil.

Of course, in one version of the Pandora myth, the Box contained more than just evil. It contained Hope. The Hope that the Evil could someday be overcome.

I guess you can put whatever you want into a box. As for myself, I'm not sure what box I belong in. It angers me when other people try to put me into a box. How arrogant does someone need to be to think they know what box I belong in, when even I can't define my size and shape so perfectly?

Maybe the truth is we don't belong in boxes at all.

Maybe Pandora had the right idea.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There is an equal amount of 'gunism' from the other side: Guns are necessary and good. Personally, I don't feel like taking guns away from people (unless they're crazy or have violent criminal records).... but really, guns don't offer a solution to most of the vexing problems of life: Finding a job, buying a house, getting a car loan, getting the streets paved.... Unless there is some sort of collective action (I know, Americans shudder at the word) you'll just be a nut with a gun.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:05 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

AnthonyT

THANKS ! The problem - as I see it - is that a few people see guns as THE answer to everything. Need to clean up Love Canal ? Damn, if only we all had guns. Need to keep lead out of toys ? Sigh. If only we all had unrestricted access to whatever arms we wanted ...

It's simplistic, silly, worse than pointless. B/c it should be a non-issue. Not by eliminating all guns but by taking a middle reasonable path to ensure that guns aren't causing more harm than they are preventing.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:23 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If the principle of gun ownership wasn't threatened, I doubt you'd hear from gun advocates at all. They'd go about their lives quietly and not mention or worry about it.

There are a lot of 'hot topics' that the world doesn't revolve around. They become 'hot topics' because when there is a chance of someone losing the right to do something, it swells to fill a great deal of their field of vision.

Take this example:

"The legality of gun ownership may have an impact on the well being of society, but guns are not, in and of themselves, a pivotal part of the health of our nation. Things like Education, the Economy, and Crime may be influenced in a small way by guns, but the reality is that these problems need solutions that have nothing to do with a gun. Whether everyone has the right to a gun, or no one has the right to a gun, Society's ills would still be there. So who cares about guns? It's practically a non-issue."

This statement is true. At least, I think this statement is true. But gun-ownership can become startlingly important to a person when someone tells them they shouldn't be allowed to own guns. It's nothing less than someone taking one of your perceived rights away. When no one is trying to take your rights away, you don't spend a lot of time thinking about them. But when someone is trying to take your rights away, you spend an inordinate amount of time and effort concentrating on it.

If you doubt me, read the same example, with a slight replacement:

"The legality of abortion may have an impact on the well being of society, but abortion is not, in and of itself, a pivotal part of the health of our nation. Things like Education, the Economy, and Crime may be influenced in a small way by abortion, but the reality is that these problems need solutions that have nothing to do with abortion. Whether everyone has the right to an abortion, or no one has the right to an abortion, Society's ills would still be there. So who cares about abortion? It's practically a non-issue."

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:30 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"when someone tells them they shouldn't be allowed to own guns"

And who is saying that ? Really, think about it.
Who is proposing anything other than same-old same-old registration ? Nobody !!

The only people who are whimpering are the people who are saying that others are saying it.
It IS a non-issue, driven to extremes by the pro-gun extremists. And by nobody else.

***************************************************************
Unlike your abortion issue, which IS being actively undermined.

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:40 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Exactly.

Do you see anyone picketing gun shops? Forming a human chain so that people can't get in? Plastering pictures of grotesque gun deaths on their cars and truck? Targeting- literally- gun dealers? Pounding the pulpit about the evils of gun ownerhsip? Making guns SO difficult to get that you have to go out-of-state to the single gun dealer in the state next door? Proposng laws in the state legislature banning guns?

What I see is much ado about NOTHING. Save your energy for fighting for legal abortions and clean elections and equal acess to the internet. (I've already given up on other forms of media)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:21 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Quote:

"And who is saying that ? Really, think about it. Who is proposing anything other than same-old same-old registration ? Nobody !!"

"Pounding the pulpit about the evils of gun ownerhsip? Making guns SO difficult to get that you have to go out-of-state to the single gun dealer in the state next door? Proposng laws in the state legislature banning guns?"

I'm sorry. I am either very confused and am misunderstanding reality, or you are.

There are places in the United States where gun ownership has been outlawed except in special cases. Where you do have to leave a municipality to purchase a firearm. Where most citizens cannot carry a firearm under any circumstance.

There are people proposing laws at the State and Federal level banning guns to one degree or another.

There are organied lobbyists of substantial size whose whole purpose is to get guns banned, one piece at a time, one law at a time.

One example of such a law is a law in California that requires a firearm to have a specified or greater melting point. Understand: The law prevents you from purchasing a gun with a melting point below a specified figure. It is not a law about safety or function. It is not a law about training. It is not a law about registration. It is a law about requiring gun manufacturers to sell guns with more expensive metals in their composition, so that the guns are too costly for poor people to buy them.

The very existence of such a law is an outrage, because it not only limits the selection of firearms, but it increases the price of firearms. It seeks to eliminate the possibility of economically disenfranchised people from owning guns. Essentially, the law says that poor people have less right to a firearm than middle class people.

Another example of a 'whittling your rights away' law was the Assault Weapons Ban. When Bush's influence encouraged that law to die, it became the singular thing I was grateful to him for.

The Assault Weapons Ban... A law which banned weapons based on cosmetic features and ammunition capacity. A law which had nothing to do with assault weapons.

And that is how they take the rights away. Not with a big "No One Gets Any Guns Ever" law, but with a dozen little, "This feature is axed, that feature is axed, this right is gone, that right is gone" laws.

I'm sure if you imagine real hard, you can imagine the anti-abortion people getting smart, and instead of trying to ban abortions, they try to ban specific procedures and tools used in abortions. It's a means to an end.

Again, guns and abortions aren't all that important, individually, to the ills of the world. But the principle of having your rights stolen an inch at a time is very f*cking important to everyone. By failing to equate all rights and defend them with equal staunchness, you become the very 'one issue' libertarian you despise: Someone who only cares about their pet cause(s), and ignores or minimalizes all the others.

Rue, I shouldn't see you yelling AT the Gun folks for talking about their concerns. I should see you yelling WITH them. And with the abortion folks. And with the free speech folks. And with the privacy folks. And with the mutant registration folks.

Well, you get the idea.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:34 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"There are places in the United States where gun ownership has been outlawed except in special cases."

And what if that's the will of the majority ? Doesn't that count for something ?

BTW, the Constitution is flawed and needs serious work. No right to privacy. No protection against corporations. A non-parliamentary system. But until you can fix the Constitution to give you an un-qualified right to 'arms' - you'll have to live with it being decided by a political process.

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And work like hell to ammend the Constitution.

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:47 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"There are places in the United States where gun ownership has been outlawed except in special cases."

And what if that's the will of the majority ? Doesn't that count for something ?

BTW, the Constitution is flawed and needs serious work. No right to privacy. No protection against corporations. A non-parliamentary system. But until you can fix the Constitution to give you an un-qualified right to 'arms' - you'll have to live with it being decided by a political process.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Rue,

May your rights and liberties never be curtailed by the majority.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 5:07 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

They already are.

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Aided an abetted by the people who sit on the sidelines and say - politicians, they're all the same.

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:40 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
6-ix

"anytime a government has successfully banned its people from being able to protect themselves it then starts overstepping its boundaries"

I can think of many countries that regulate guns that don't have despotic governments - most of western and northern Europe; and many countries with despots and warlords that have no gun control - west and central Africa, and Somalia.
just a fact, it's a choice."

Sure... now. Nothing to stop them if they wanted to try it though. History proves that lesson again and again and again.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Thats my point exactly. These measures being set up, are to PREVENT someone from organizing 5% of the population.

I am of the opinion that it no longer matters WHO is in office.

Well.... now you just sound like the voices in my head Wulf.

Nice to meet ya, by the way.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 6:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
There are places in the United States where gun ownership has been outlawed except in special cases. Where you do have to leave a municipality to purchase a firearm. Where most citizens cannot carry a firearm under any circumstance.

Such as...? I'm curious.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:29 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Such as New York City, where not all law abiding citizens are granted the right to own handguns. The city must determine that you have a reasonable need, and then you must apply for a license that costs over $300 every three years just to keep owning a handgun.

Edited to add: New York is also one of the hardest places to get a carry permit. The police department decides who gets to carry a weapon, and they can simply decide not to issue you a permit, even if there is no criminal or mental health reason not to allow it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:40 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

To add some perspective to carry permits...

Some places, like Florida, have 'shall issue' carry permits. This means that unless they have a reason to deny you a carry permit, they will issue one.

Other places, like Maryland, have 'may issue' carry permits. This means that the police chief can give you a license to carry a weapon if he feels like it. But he doesn't need a reason to say no. So he can say no whenever he damn well pleases.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:46 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

But that's not the same as not being able to have a gun under any circumstances. B/c if some people do get permits, then there are circumstances which do allow you to have guns.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:29 PM