REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

There's hope for America's soul.

POSTED BY: R1Z
UPDATED: Saturday, October 8, 2005 09:17
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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 11:02 PM

R1Z


From CNN--
Quote:

Setting up a possible veto showdown with the White House, the Senate voted overwhelmingly for an amendment to a Pentagon spending bill that sets standards for the treatment of prisoners in U.S. military custody.

The measure, sponsored by Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, would require American troops to follow interrogation standards set in the Army Field Manual and bar "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" of prisoners in U.S. custody.



http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/06/senate.detainees/index.html


To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 6:35 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by R1Z:
From CNN--
Quote:

Setting up a possible veto showdown with the White House, the Senate voted overwhelmingly for an amendment to a Pentagon spending bill that sets standards for the treatment of prisoners in U.S. military custody.

The measure, sponsored by Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, would require American troops to follow interrogation standards set in the Army Field Manual and bar "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" of prisoners in U.S. custody.



http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/06/senate.detainees/index.html



A law saying that they have to follow the law. I suggest they then pass another law endorsing McCain's law to follow the Army's laws regarding the treatment of prisoners.

Or we could skip all this and Prosecute people for violating the original rule.

Nope, I prefer McCain's approach. That way it looks like Congress is taking action. Yep, just looks like it.

Is torture Constitutional? With Due Process anything is possible...

H

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:04 AM

CITIZEN


They make psychologists get psychoanalysed, but they don't make torturers get tortured, does that seem right to you?



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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:08 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
They make psychologists get psychoanalysed, but they don't make torturers get tortured, does that seem right to you?



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I don't know. I'm a lawyer and I've been sued. Maybe you should ask a butcher how they come down on this topic...

H

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:35 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
I don't know. I'm a lawyer and I've been sued. Maybe you should ask a butcher how they come down on this topic...


Wincing... big cleavers, sausages, say no more?



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Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:45 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
They make psychologists get psychoanalysed, but they don't make torturers get tortured, does that seem right to you?


LOL, that is just so funny-
Dude, you GOTTA start a RWE thread with that title!!!!!

Chrisisall

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Friday, October 7, 2005 5:03 AM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL


Actually, having had some background in military intelligence, I can tell you that part of the training process for interrogators is to be interrogated themselves.

I'll leave it up to you, though to debate whether interrogation=torture or not.

_______________________________________________
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Friday, October 7, 2005 6:48 AM

CITIZEN


IB:
Yea, I know for a fact part of British SAS training includes a section where recruits are let loose, chased, hunted and then captured. Then they are litterally tortured (stuck in boxes, beaten, and other general psychological torture techniques) and interrogated. I do wonder if those torturing Iraqi's and terroist suspects actually went through anything like that tho?



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Friday, October 7, 2005 5:14 PM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL


Need to be careful there, Citzen. You're generalizing from the cases of abuse that we know of to every single interrogation that takes place, and I'm not sure that that's a valid induction. I'll grant you that abuses have taken place, but having had experience over there with Special Operations, I can tell you that's not the rule, that's an exception.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:46 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Playing patty cake w/ those who saw off heads of civilians and rig bodies of dead children so that their parents will also die a horrible, violent death as they try to recover the body of their dead child..... doesn't seem to me that America ever had lost its soul. It's just trying to fight those who have none.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:46 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Origianlly posted by InevitableBetrayal:
You're generalizing from the cases of abuse that we know of to every single interrogation that takes place, and I'm not sure that that's a valid induction.


Erm... No I'm not.



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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:04 AM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Origianlly posted by InevitableBetrayal:
You're generalizing from the cases of abuse that we know of to every single interrogation that takes place, and I'm not sure that that's a valid induction.


Erm... No I'm not.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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Yes. You are.

We know of several very high profile cases of abuse on the part of interrogators. You move from several high-visibility cases of abuse to the generalization that all interrogation amounts to torture. That's called induction (moving from specific cases to general conclusions. I say this because of the comments that you make, e.g. "They don't make torturers get tortured" which indicate that you are equating all interrogation with torture. Undergoing torture isn't part of interrogation training because that's not what interrogation is. Why on earth would they subject interrogators to torture when that's not what interrogators do? Certain of them have committed abuses, no questions. But the way you frame your statement leads one to the conclusion that you believe torture to be essential to the nature of interrogation.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 9:17 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
I say this because of the comments that you make, e.g. "They don't make torturers get tortured" which indicate that you are equating all interrogation with torture. Undergoing torture isn't part of interrogation training because that's not what interrogation is.


IB, If I had said "They don't make interrogators get tortured" you'd have something. I didn't, so you don't. You’re reading into my statements things that simply ARE NOT there!
I said Torturers, not interrogators. In none of my posts did I say Interrogators were tortures.
The closest I come is here:
Then they are literally tortured (stuck in boxes, beaten, and other general psychological torture techniques) and interrogated.
Here the operative word is AND. They are tortured AND interrogated. I set out quite clearly in my post that interrogation and torture are different things. If you read different you either miss-read my posts or you wanted, at some level, to read into them something that isn't there.

As for equating all Interrogation with torture, I didn't. If I had said anything like:
Interrogators always use torture, then again, you would have had something, but I didn't, so you don't.
Quote:

But the way you frame your statement leads one to the conclusion that you believe torture to be essential to the nature of interrogation.

I never framed my posts or statements that way. It’s stupid to think Torture is inherently part of Interrogation. In Torture interrogation will be most often an aspect, but it is a separate entity, and usually exists outside of torture in modern society.




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