The empire is going down on Bush: by Howard

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The empire is going down on Bush:

POSTED BY: HOWARD
UPDATED: Friday, November 4, 2005 12:08
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1567
PAGE 1 of 1

Sunday, October 30, 2005 5:15 PM

COUNTERPUNCH Weekend Edition
October 29 / 30, 2005

The Libby Indictment
Beginning of the End? Watergate 2005? Gotterdammerung for the Bushies?
By ALEXANDER COCKBURN
and JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

Scooter Libby was the lawyer who got the charges dropped against billionaire scamster Marc Rich back in Clintontime. But that had more to do with Rich's billions than with any legal talents Libby may have. On the evidence of the indictment brought by special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald on Friday, October 28, one fact stands out: SCOOTER LIBBY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID.

And this is what CounterPunch gets from the Fitzgerald indictment as a whole.

Special prosecutor Fitzgerald could have suggested that there is a cancer growing on the presidency, metastasizing out of Dick Cheney's suite. He could have stated, or even hinted that yesterday's indictment of Libby is the first drum roll in a mighty symphony of prosecutorial onslaughts on felonious conduct in high places.

But special prosecutor Fitzgerald did none of these things. He trailed his coat plenty of times. In his indictment of Libby he opens a couple of doors a few inches, so that the attentive reader can see footprints that head off towards the vice president's office. But then the door shuts and there's no evidence that special prosecutor has an appetite to prise it open again.

Despite all the enormous hopes vested in the Plame affair, that it is playing the same role in the downfall of the Bush administration as did the "third-rate rate burglary" that kicked off Watergate, this could be the end of the story, even if Fitzgerald has said there might have to be further investigation of Karl Rove, identified in the Indictments as Official A.

Back to Libby and his stupidity. Put yourself in his shoes. You are about to go before a grand jury and testify under oath. You know that the special prosecutor has successfully subpoenaed White House and CIA logs. Your lawyer whispers in your ear that the three most beautiful words in the English language are "I don't recall". He claps you on the back and, alone and unarmed, you enter the grand jury room. You raise your right hand and swear solemnly that you will testify to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God.

And here's nice Mr Fitzgerald asking you questions and you tell one staggering lie after another. Not sneaky little half truths. Not mincing little evasions. No, Sir! Not this Scooter! I work for Dick Cheney and I can really, really tell a lie. And you do! You fire off volley after volley of brazen falsehoods, stretchers so ripe with willful and considered mendacity that it's a marvel the words don't explode in the jury room like methane in an overheated pile of manure.

Fitzgerald: If you did not understand the information about Wilson's wife to have been classified and didn't understand it when you heard it from Mr. Russert, why was it that you were so deliberate to make sure that you told other reporters that reporters were saying it and not assert it as something you knew?

Libby: I want --I didn't want to --I didn't know if it was true and I didn't want people --I didn't want the reporters to think it was true because I said it. I --all I had was that reporters are telling us that, and by that I wanted them to understand it wasn't coming from me and that it might not be true. Reporters write things that aren't true sometimes, or get things that aren't true. So I wanted to be clear they didn't, they didn't think it was me saying it. I didn't know it was true and I wanted them to understand that. Also, it was important to me to let them know that because what I was telling them was that I don't know Mr. Wilson. We didn't ask for his mission. That I didn't see his report.

Basically, we didn't know anything about him until this stuff came out in June. And among the other things, I didn't know he had a wife. That was one of the things I said to Mr. Cooper. I don't know if he's married. And so I wanted to be very clear about all this stuff that I didn't, I didn't know about him. And the only thing I had, I thought at the time, was what reporters are telling us.

And of course there in the investigative dossier on the table in front of nice Mr Fitzgerald are all the records of Libby's urgent probes into Wilson and Plames' relationship and activities weeks and months before he talked to Russert or to Cooper. The grand jurors must have looked at Libby, thinking, This idiot spouting perjuries at us is Vice President Cheney's chief of staff? Our taxpayer money is paying this moron's salary.

This is what CounterPunch gets from Plamegate, and what we always got from Plamegate. The people in charge of the nation's destinies these last five years are very, very stupid. Only really stupid people could have thought that outing Valerie Plame as an undercover CIA employee was a good way of undercutting her husband, Joe Wilson. Cheney is stupid. Rove is stupid. Bush is stupid. Libby, about whom we now have a heap of useful material, is very, very stupid.

It's only because we have a lazy and venal press that this hasn't been conclusively rammed into the public's mind years ago. But the press is lazy, venal and complicit.

Tim Russert wasn't calling on Libby to probe for secrets. He was there, according to Fitzgerald's indictment, to listen to Libby's complaint that a staffer of MSNBC had been rude about him, Libby. Cooper of Time wasn't there to disinter the dark mysteries of the yellow cake scam. He was there to have a good gossip.

Now it could be that Scooter Libby's next lawyer will sit down with his client and tell him that he's going to the joint for a lot longer that Judy Miller's 85 days in prison unless he opens up for special prosecutor Fitzgerald some investigative avenues so promising, so sensational, that Mr Fitzgerald begins to see himself as a major star in the political firmament. Maybe.

Or he may say, Scooter, cop a plea asap, do some time and then let the President pardon you on his way out of Dodge, same way as Clinton pardoned your former client Marc Rich, and the same way Bush's Dad, as one of his last acts in power, on December 4, 1992, pardoned Caspar Weinberger, Duane R. Clarridge, Clair E. George, Robert C. McFarlane, Elliott Abrams, and Alan G. Fiers Jr., all of whom had been indicted and/or convicted of charges by Independent Counsel Walsh in the Contragate affair.

In fact Bush Sr pardoned Weinberger, though he was scheduled to stand trial two weeks later, so maybe Scooter will hang tough and just try to run out the clock.

So we somehow doubt that the Plame Affair still has legs, but even so, we have to go back to the early 1970s to find rubble so satisfactorily piled up around our imperial government.

In Nixon's case, top officials and aides forced into resignation and in many cases prison, included the vice president, the head of the FBI, two attorneys general and four senior White House staffers.

On March 1, 1974, a grand jury named President Nixon, among others, as an unindicted coconspirator, for obstruction of justice concerning suppression of evidence such as the White House tapes. In August of that year Nixon resigned.

Yes, it was quite a holocaust at the top executive level. But many imperial institutions sailed through the crisis supposedly ennobled. Kissinger's stature was not dented and indeed his sway over State Department and Empire was consolidated. President Ford had no option but to maintain him as the arbiter of America's policies around the world.

The US Supreme Court sailed on, led by Nixon's chosen instrument, Warren Burger. Both the US Senate and House of Representatives gained an heroic aura as the tv cameras turned Sam Ervin and even Howard Baker into saviors of the Republic. The Democratic Party emerged with credit and huge majorities in November '74.

Most of all, the Fourth Estate was anointed (mostly by itself) as the vanquisher of despotism.

Contrast this to the inferno that now threatens the Imperial Establishment on every front. Since Nixon-time the Republic has had 31 years to run to seed, fatter and more corrupt.

Already the most powerful politician in Washington, House majority leader Tom DeLay, is under indictment and in consequence stripped of his official position.
The future looks grim for Senator Bill Frist, who faces SEC and Justice Department probes for insider trading.

On Capitol Hill there's open warfare between various factions of the Republican Party, which this week climaxed with the conservative faction successfully rejecting Bush's nomination of Harriet Miers to the US Supreme Court, an incredible humiliation for the President. With midterm elections looming and Bush's public approval ratings tumbling, the collapse of discipline will only accelerate amid the general panic.

The Bush high command is in utter disrepute, openly attacked by Colin Powell's former chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, as a dictatorial cabal.

Bush's deputy chief of staff, Karl Rove, has been distracted and -- so the Miers fiasco showed, offered poor counsel his boss, whose presidency hangs over the precipice of ruin.

Consider the gloomy vista from Bush the Unlucky's Oval Office, where even the birds in the Rose Garden are omens of yet another national crisis (which is scheduled to provide a bonanza to the drug companies, which a US Senate subcommitee just voted to hold free of any liability if their flu vaccines have the same lethal potential as they did in the swine flu panic a generation ago.)

In Iraq the war is faring disastrously and here in the Homeland it's increasingly unpopular. The hurricanes have blown away all remaining public illusions about the venality and incompetence of the President and his cronies. The economy is rickety and a long-feared end to the housing boom may be upon us. Symbolizing the sense that the jig is up, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan is heading into retirement just before the roof falls in.

Internationally, the US has rarely been more despised. The armed forces are demoralized and the reserve system in ruins.

Is there any institution not compromised, not held in popular contempt? This crisis has no Woodward or Bernstein to lend it luster. There is no doughty popular hero at hand. The journalist's name on every lip is that of Judith Miller, named coconspirator in the fomentation of a war that has seen the deaths of 2000 Americans thus far. The New York Times is in a state of civil war, just like the Republican Party.

There's no sign that the Democratic Party is gaining any traction from the Republican collapse. With good reason. Never has a party been offered so many opportunities and taken so little advantage from them. So far as the war is concerned, powerful Democrats like Joseph Biden and Hillary Clinton are calling for more troops. Greenspan's long and pock-marked tenure as the bankers' bulwark draws tearful cries of gratitude from Democrats like Senator Paul Sarbanes.

In 2005 it is impossible to link the Democrats with a single courageous stand or even constructive idea. This week the party's top strategists -- mesmerized by the twenty-first century's answer to the Framers, Dr George Lakoff's childish nostrums -- were wrangling over two possible slogans, "Together, we can do better," or "Together, America can do better."

Meanwhile over 100,000 older Americans lined up in mid October to file bankruptcy before the old wipe-the-slate-clean Chapter 7 law expired. More than half of these bankrupts have been ruined by health costs. The new bankruptcy law, written by the banks and credit card companies, made it through the Congress only with the help of Democratic votes in the senate, which were duly forthcoming as they always are.

If a Democrat, John Kerry, had captured the White House in 2004, would this have made a difference? Yes. The imperial machine would be probably be running more smoothly. The war in Iraq would have been given a new infusion of malign energy. You doubt this? It's hard to keep up with his somersaults, but listen to Professor Juan Cole, liberal Democratic guru on Iraq. He now says (in an interview with the Nation Institute's Tom Engelhardt) that for the US to "up and leave" Iraq would be to become an accomplice in genocide. He counsels the heightened use in Iraq of "special forces and air power". In other words, assassinations and saturation bombing. Come home Robert McNamara, all is -- yet again -- forgiven.

It's not the role of radicals to call for the election of a more efficient strategist and engineer of a bloodthirsty and rapacious empire, Kerry's only claim on the voters' attention, anyone remembers. So let us give thanks that Bush is in the White House, and holding the Imperial fleet on a steady course to the rocks.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, November 3, 2005 2:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Seems the reports of President Bush's demise have been greatly exaggerated

So sorry.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, November 3, 2005 4:51 PM

DREAMTROVE

Auraptor.

Does the president pay you for this support?

I want to see Bush burn, personally. He's terrible at the job, he fronts for a pack of socialists, his popularity rots, and his VP says he won't run for office again. This means Democrats in '08, probably Hillary, possibly Kerry. If Bush is sacked now, and gets replaced with decent republicans. Those people, pick any two GOP senators, will probably be able to start repairing Bush's mess, kick out the socialists, restore the popularity, and run for re-election in '08, making Republicans in '08.

I know that there are a few Democrats out there who will read this and respond, oh no, keep Bush :( but don't McCain or Hagel would be better that Kerry or Hillary. Frist I'm not so sure about, but he'd be better than Bush. I see Bush's demise as a gop victory for the values it stands for. I think this is why most of the effect anti-Bush attacks have come from the right. Hillary and the Democrats have a lot to lose if Bush is replace by McCain in '06. Maybe that's why they're not trying so hard. I believe right now if they wanted to, they could win an impeachment vote. But they'd much rather face an unknown untested GOP pres. in '08 than a popular incumbent.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, November 3, 2005 6:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Auraptor.

Does the president pay you for this support?

I want to see Bush burn, personally. He's terrible at the job, he fronts for a pack of socialists, his popularity rots, and his VP says he won't run for office again. This means Democrats in '08, probably Hillary, possibly Kerry. If Bush is sacked now, and gets replaced with decent republicans. Those people, pick any two GOP senators, will probably be able to start repairing Bush's mess, kick out the socialists, restore the popularity, and run for re-election in '08, making Republicans in '08.

I know that there are a few Democrats out there who will read this and respond, oh no, keep Bush :( but don't McCain or Hagel would be better that Kerry or Hillary. Frist I'm not so sure about, but he'd be better than Bush. I see Bush's demise as a gop victory for the values it stands for. I think this is why most of the effect anti-Bush attacks have come from the right. Hillary and the Democrats have a lot to lose if Bush is replace by McCain in '06. Maybe that's why they're not trying so hard. I believe right now if they wanted to, they could win an impeachment vote. But they'd much rather face an unknown untested GOP pres. in '08 than a popular incumbent.

Yeah, I get $50 for every pro Bush post I make.

Tax free! I have no clue of the so called socialist you claim Bush is fronting for...seems a bit of a stretch. Bush is far from 'perfect', but better the devil ya know, than any Democrat which would be elected in these times. Bush has done a few things well, and a few more things not so well.

So calm your emotions and just deal w/ the facts. Bush will be around for his full 2nd term, and then in '08 the GOP will likely nominate George Allen or Mitt Romney. ( Just my $0.02's worth )

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, November 3, 2005 8:00 PM

DREAMTROVE

Auraptor.

I agree, Kerry would have been worse, but better than terrible isn't what I'm looking for, or to quote buffy, I'm not grading on a curve.

I don't hate George Allen, but he's not my first pick.

I refer you to what currently calls itself PNAC. These are the Neocons. Neocons in the 70s was a slang term for "Socialists for Nixon" but it became attached to the Reagan Campign in '80, because the think tanks behind him were also socialists, include the ones who supported Nixon and ones who supported democratic hopeful Scoop Jackson. More socialists and commies joined the neocon circle in the 80s under reagan, and some from the communist party.

Bush essentially is a democrat though, since his administration was really a continuation of Clinton, initially having many of the same cabinet members, and with all of the same neocon/social democrat think tank support.

wikipedia makes fascinating reading on the subject of the socialist infiltration into the republican party. It all began with a man named max schachtman, himself a trotsky communist.

The scary part about these people is not their commie origins, but that their world view really hasn't changed much since then. They just failed for decades to completely communize the democrats, and so decided to join in an alliance with the christian right to try to overthrow the fiscal and social conservatives in the republican party.

I assure you none of this is conspiracy theory, it's all carved in stone fact.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 6:37 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Auraptor.

Does the president pay you for this support?

I don't know about Auraptor, but he pays me. Works like so. I support the President, voted for him, cheered at his local rally, say nice things about him, and defend his policies.

In return he protects and defends the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foriegn and domestic. He administers the duties of his office in a way that I consider very effective and beneficial to the country and thus to myself.

Libby's indictment is not proof of Bush's failure to lead. Rather its proof of Bush's refusal to allow such things to happen on his watch. If this were Clinton I'm fairly certain that either the independent counsel would be savagely attacked in the press or Libby would be lying dead in a DC park. If this were Nixon they'd end up screwing everything up by covering up the cover up and then firing anybody who tried to investigate (making impeachment the only alternative). If this were Roosevelt this would not be an issue cause this kind of thing happened all the time. If it were Reagan...well I cannot recall what would have happened. But its Bush so, Libby has been indicted, no longer has his job, and, if guilty, will be convicted and sentenced to time in jail, and the administration of our fair land continues.

So quite attacking Bush. I suggest you switch to making racist statements against conservative black candidates and leaders...thats something all you liberals can get behind. Personally I always thought racism was wrong per se, but I'm not a Democrat. Perhaps we can get your Grand Wizard Robert Byrd (D, WVa) to explain the politics of racism to those of us who always thought that a person's character was more important then the color of their skin.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 7:29 AM

SEVENPERCENT

Way to come out swinging for the fences. If fallacies were homers you'd be Mark McGuire.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

In return he protects and defends the Constitution

Did a nice job with the Patriot Act. I just love it when the defender of the Constitution erodes the Bill of Rights.

Quote:
He administers the duties of his office in a way that I consider very effective and beneficial to the country and thus to myself.

One of the duties of his office is to appoint qualified people to important positions. "Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job. And by the way, this is my SCOTUS nominee, Harriet Myers."

Quote:
Libby's indictment is not proof of Bush's failure to lead. Rather its proof of Bush's refusal to allow such things to happen on his watch.

Would you like me to pull up the quotes where McClellan said Bush would fire anyone involved with the leak? Last I heard (at his press conference the other day) Bush was still praising Libby as a great American and that he was trustworthy. Sounds like Bush is really refusing to allow things to happen.

WAIT!! WAIT!! HERE IT COMES!!!

Quote:
If this were Clinton

Ahhhhhhh. The famous 'but Clinton.' Took you long enough, Hero. Usually you and your fellow conservatives jump on that bandwagon right off the bat. Maybe us lefties should start using "but Reagan" or "but Nixon," because they are still president about as much as Clinton is.

So let me ask this, and I will bet dollars to doughnuts you won't respond. If one person does something immoral or wrong, that somehow makes it okay if someone else does it too? You guys are always "Clinton was a bad man," then when a republican does something similar, it's "if Clinton could, we can too." Which is it? Is your party a bunch of crooks too, or are they clear because Clinton wasn't really so bad?

Quote:
or Libby would be lying dead in a DC park.

Nice. Way to imply the Clinton administration had people murdered. Those lies have all been debunked years ago (check out fact check, snopes, or media matters), but you all preach them like they're gospel. Get off the kool-aid.

Quote:
If it were Reagan...well I cannot recall what would have happened.

Neither could he. And I just love how the man that was fully enmeshed in the Iran-Contra scandal (Ollie North) has become the patron saint of fair and balanced on Fox News. Maybe they should change the slogan. "We funnel arms to rebels. You decide."

Quote:
But its Bush so, Libby has been indicted, no longer has his job, and, if guilty, will be convicted and sentenced to time in jail, and the administration of our fair land continues.

Yes, because it's all the fault of liberals. The special investigator is a Republican. Trent Lott has come out saying that Bush needs to clean house. Several prominent republicans have called for Rove's resignation. When your own party thinks you're surrounded by crooks, maybe it's time to rethink how the administration of our fair land is being done.

Quote:
I suggest you switch to making racist statements against conservative black candidates and leaders...thats something all you liberals can get behind.

And here's the winner for ignorant ad hominem today. Last time I checked, the state senator I voted for was African-American. I thought Bush getting rid of Powell was the absolute dumbest thing he had done, up to that point. I even like Condi. So that's at least one liberal that calls bullshit on your rant. Show me where any single respected liberal bashed a conservative black candidate because of race.

Quote:
Personally I always thought racism was wrong per se, but I'm not a Democrat. Perhaps we can get your Grand Wizard Robert Byrd (D, WVa) to explain the politics of racism to those of us who always thought that a person's character was more important then the color of their skin.

Let's see. Bush attacked McCain in the 2000 primaries in NC with a race issue; David Duke ran on the Republican ticket; The congressional candidate on the R platform in Tenn. in the 2004 election ran on a eugenics ticket; Bill Bennett thought that if we abort all black babies in America we'll lower the crime rate.....

Need I go on? Take that shit somewhere else, we can tell that it stinks in here.

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 9:11 AM

DREAMTROVE

Hero,

Quote:
If this were Clinton I'm fairly certain that either the independent counsel would be savagely attacked in the press or Libby would be lying dead in a DC park.

LOL. This would be true if it wasn't Scooter. Libby is a god to the neo-socialists, and that includes Clinton. But anyone else, sure I'd agree.

Quote:

In return he protects and defends the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foriegn and domestic.

Like hell he does. Have you seen the patriot act? What about the rest of his term, I mean seriously, as close as this guy gets to the constitution is when he uses it as bathroom tissue.

Quote:

So quite attacking Bush. I suggest you switch to making racist statements against conservative black candidates and leaders...thats something all you liberals can get behind.

All me liberals? I'm a right wing republican, I think bush is a liberal commie stooge.

I don't have any problems with Mr. Powell, and as for Ms. Rice I don't think she has the right approach to Venezuela, but I don't really have problems with her either. Maybe you do, I don't know. But my problems are with Mr. Cheney and his buds.

Actually, if I say Bush, I really mean the Bush Admin, in particular Cheney, and his immediate circle of friends. Which includes Bill Clinton, btw. And they're not just friends, they're partners in crime.

I wouldn't care so much about Bush himself, who is really just a chimpanzee, except that I think every day he stays in office is bad for the party. I think he's going to cost us a lot of seats in '06. And if he and Cheney are both still there in '08 then I expect a Democrat will be elected. Maybe a couple of them. I think anyone who, like me, doesn't want that to happen maybe should stop sucking on the presidents agenda.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 9:26 AM

DREAMTROVE

I hope everyone realizes I respond to the post not the person, so it's nothing personal. I find I agree with most people about 1/2 the times, and there's been no one yet that I either agree with all of the time or disagree with all of the time.

I'm the same way with my politics. I oppose the policies of Bush. After a long time a pattern of behavior someone loses my trust, and then I'm suspicious of everything they do. For instance, I agree with Bush that social security should be privatized, but I no longer trust him to do it. I think he would hand the people's money over to his friends, or fund war, socialist revolutions, international terrorists with it. I suspect he would a way. Or even if he wouldn't, I can't trust him that far any more. It didn't start out that war. I liked his dad as president, and when the son ran I gave him the benefit od the doubt, and also I hated Gore.

But times change. I think he's really f^&ked up pretty supremely, and doesn't seem to stop. I agree he's probably presently still better than Kerry, but that's like saying he's better than Ted Kennedy. Hell, no, it's not, if Ted Kennedy were one candidate and Kerry were the other, I'd probably vote for Kennedy. But only if that was the only choice. Anyway. Right now I'd like to see the GOP return to sanity and conservatism before they just go and throw it to the democrats.

And no, the democrats aren't getting my vote. Not unless the republicans continue to screw up, give me JEB as a candidate and then the democrats go and nominate a decent candidate, but they seem totally unable to do that, so I don't see it happening. Realistically I think there's one open and free election at the moment, and it's the republican primary. I think the democrating primary is run out of Yale, and so isn't ever going to nominate a conservative, or a libertarian man of the people.

That said, I need to go back and read 7%'s very long post.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 9:52 AM

DREAMTROVE

7%,

Quote:

Did a nice job with the Patriot Act. I just love it when the defender of the Constitution erodes the Bill of Rights.

Amen to that.

Quote:

One of the duties of his office is to appoint qualified people to important positions. "Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job. And by the way, this is my SCOTUS nominee, Harriet Myers."

Amen that too. I have a theory that Michael Brown keep his job because he's the only one low enough to siphon off aid for disaster victims and give it in hand outs to rich people at golf clubs. This is exactly the sort of stuff us on the right hated Clinton for. Bush seems to be doing it in spades.

Quote:

Ahhhhhhh. The famous 'but Clinton.' Took you long enough, Hero.

Gotta disagree. 'But Clinton' is a bad defense, I admit, it's like the 'But Saddam' defense. But still, Clinton. I mean seriously. If the left wants to defend someone, pick a less corrupt and evil someone. Defend Jimmy Carter, or you could defend Robert Byrd, who was just viciously attacked. I don't have to defend him because I'm not a democrat, but I did think it was unfair.

Still and all, just because Clinton was evil and corrupt isn't a decent reason to allow Bush to be so also. I think you gotta appreciate the "Waah, you got to rape America, we wanna rape her too!"

Quote:

Way to imply the Clinton administration had people murdered.

Um. But they did. Vince Foster? Ring a bell? My brother is an ardent supporter of democrats, he voted for Clinton twice. But he's also a lawyer. He has told me in no uncertain terms that he's absolutely certain the Hillary had Vince Foster killed to keep herself out of prison with whitewater. So I gotta say they did it at least once, there may have been more.

Quote:

Quote:

If it were Reagan...well I cannot recall what would have happened.

Neither could he.

LOL. I just thought this was funny.

Quote:

Yes, because it's all the fault of liberals. The special investigator is a Republican. Trent Lott has come out saying that Bush needs to clean house. Several prominent republicans have called for Rove's resignation. When your own party thinks you're surrounded by crooks, maybe it's time to rethink how the administration of our fair land is being done.

Thank you. For making my point for me, so clearly. Democrats are powerless at the moment. Bush Admin is an enemy of the GOP more than anything else. These Bush loyalists are therefore party disloyalists, because there are a lot more republicans attacking the administration now than there are actually in it. In fact, a lot of the people, hell, the vast majority of people in the Bush Admin are not career republicans, they're mostly socialists who joined the GOP so they could actually get into govt. but they never changed their stripes. Democrats, meanwhile, as I said before, have been mostly, if not entirely, on the sidelines, occasionally whining or shouting.

Quote:

And here's the winner for ignorant ad hominem today. Last time I checked, the state senator I voted for was African-American. I thought Bush getting rid of Powell was the absolute dumbest thing he had done, up to that point. I even like Condi. So that's at least one liberal that calls bullshit on your rant. Show me where any single respected liberal bashed a conservative black candidate because of race.

I don't know if you're a liberal just because Hero calls you one, but okay ;)
Seriously, though, if you want one, I'm willing to take on Clarence Thomas...

"Here's a man who actually thinks separation of church and state means you can have the catholic state of florida and the baptists state of alabama"

I guess that's not racist, it's just funny.

Quote:

Let's see. Bush attacked McCain in the 2000 primaries in NC with a race issue; David Duke ran on the Republican ticket; The congressional candidate on the R platform in Tenn. in the 2004 election ran on a eugenics ticket; Bill Bennett thought that if we abort all black babies in America we'll lower the crime rate.....

Good point on McCain. Bush did do that.
Duke was on a Republican ticket, it's true.
Bill Bennett, that's not fair, I think it was an assault. Bennett also is a PNAC signatory, so to me that automatically voids him from being a conservative. No conservative could willing sign up for a socialist revolution. I don't know the other guy, but I'm will to concede the first two.

Thanks for sparing Mr. Lott, btw. I think that claim of racism was totally uncalled for. Trent is not a racist.

But please, duck the bathroom phrases. I think this is one of the low class elements that gives the left no appeal. Bush used to use these all the time, btw, and who would want to be like him :)

Quote:

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 10:34 AM

SEVENPERCENT

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:

Way to imply the Clinton administration had people murdered.

Um. But they did. Vince Foster? Ring a bell? My brother is an ardent supporter of democrats, he voted for Clinton twice. But he's also a lawyer. He has told me in no uncertain terms that he's absolutely certain the Hillary had Vince Foster killed to keep herself out of prison with whitewater. So I gotta say they did it at least once, there may have been more.

Sorry DT, not this time. Here's a quickie link just because it's easy to look up from the comp I'm on, read it for yourself.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm

Quote:
White House deputy counsel Vince Foster committed suicide on the night of 20 July 1993 by shooting himself once in the head, a day after he contacted his doctor about his depression. A note in the form of a draft resignation letter was found in the bottom of his briefcase a week after his death. (Note that this letter was not, as is often claimed, a "suicide note." It was Foster's outline for a letter of resignation.) Foster cited negative Wall Street Journal editorials about him. He was also upset about the much-criticized role of the counsel's office in the controversial firing of seven White House travel office workers.

On 10 October 1997, special prosecutor Kenneth Starr released his report on the investigation into Foster's death, the third such investigation (after ones conducted by the coroner and Starr's predecessor, Robert B. Fiske) of the matter. The 114-page summary of a three-year investigation concluded that Foster shot himself with the pistol discovered in his right hand. There was no sign of a struggle, nor any evidence he'd been drugged or intoxicated or that his body had been moved.

If Foster had been murdered or if unanswered questions about his death remained, Starr would have been the last person to want to conclude the investigation prematurely. Or are we to believe Starr is part of the cover up, too?

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 10:35 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
And here's the winner for ignorant ad hominem today. Last time I checked, the state senator I voted for was African-American. I thought Bush getting rid of Powell was the absolute dumbest thing he had done, up to that point. I even like Condi. So that's at least one liberal that calls bullshit on your rant. Show me where any single respected liberal bashed a conservative black candidate because of race.

I was about to 'have at you' but then I parsed your statement. You've got me. I can't show you a single "respected liberal". All I've got are DNC Chairman Howard Dean, Montgomery County Executive Douglas M. Duncan and Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley, both white Democrats and running for governor of Maryland, Maryland Democratic Party Chairman Terry Lierman, Sen. Lisa A. Gladden, a black Baltimore Democrat, Maryland State Sen. Verna Jones, Baltimore Democrat and vice chairman of the General Assembly's black caucus, Kweisi Mfume's (who is running for senator) spokesman Joseph R. Trippi (to be fair Mfume himself condemned the attacks), News Blog -- a liberal Web log run by black New Yorker Steve Gilliard, US Senator Robert Byrd (D, WVa, former KKK Wizard and recent user of the "N" word), and on and on, and so on and so forth...and don't forget the NAACP's crack for votes program here in Ohio in 2004.

But no. Not a respected liberal to be found, but thats another story.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 11:12 AM

SEVENPERCENT

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

I was about to 'have at you' but then I parsed your statement. You've got me. I can't show you a single "respected liberal". All I've got are DNC Chairman Howard Dean, Montgomery County Executive Douglas M. Duncan and Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley, both white Democrats and running for governor of Maryland, Maryland Democratic Party Chairman Terry Lierman, Sen. Lisa A. Gladden, a black Baltimore Democrat, Maryland State Sen. Verna Jones, Baltimore Democrat and vice chairman of the General Assembly's black caucus, Kweisi Mfume's (who is running for senator) spokesman Joseph R. Trippi (to be fair Mfume himself condemned the attacks), News Blog -- a liberal Web log run by black New Yorker Steve Gilliard, US Senator Robert Byrd (D, WVa, former KKK Wizard and recent user of the "N" word), and on and on, and so on and so forth...and don't forget the NAACP's crack for votes program here in Ohio in 2004.

But no. Not a respected liberal to be found, but thats another story.

Just naming names isn't gonna cut it. Why don't you show me some quotes and some links? And not links to Newsmax, either. Show me one statement from Dean, with an actual attributed quote, where he condemns someone based on their race.

And, if you can (which I doubt), I'll post a quote to a conservative who said something similar or worse (all I have to do is type 'katrina stupid quotes' on google, and I bet I find 50). So have at me; it'll be amusing to watch your argument collapse. You're stretching 'respected' already by naming people like 'Montgomery County Exec..' Who the hell is that, other than a political nobody I'm sure Hannity got a good soundbite off of?

Your precious neocons are just as bad as any liberals; saying 'all liberals are racist' makes you look juvenile.
EDITED TO ADD:
Which you did when you said this:

Quote:
I suggest you switch to making racist statements against conservative black candidates and leaders...thats something all you liberals can get behind

Just in case you forgot.
------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 11:59 AM

DREAMTROVE

Okay, I'm going to intervene here. Can we not degenerate into partisan bickering?

If we did that, they'd have to elect us to congress, and I really don't want to waste the time :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 4, 2005 12:08 PM

DREAMTROVE

I would have to conclude that Kenneth Starr works for Clinton, but then I always thought he did. Just because urban legends wants to be partisan isn't going to make Clinton, who was not shy of killing a million or so others, not a murderer.

I will forward the piece to my brother, since it was his story of Vince Foster, but it's very hard to credit. The girls really had nothing on Clinton.

For Bush, Abu Ghraib was the fake torture story to cover the real one.

Remember Bush's marijuana tapes exposed? That was leaked by Bush. It was negative scandal as positive spin.

Clinton's extramarital affairs were the same thing. Here was a man who was imbezzling money, committing genocide, and helping to wreck the environment for profit. A real focus on a real scandal would have been fatal for him. That's what Vince Foster was. Of course Foster would leave his job, but he was also prepared to testify.

I'd make the same accusations of Bush. I can think of a couple off hand John Bolton probably did away with. Oh wait, those were 'suicides' also. I love the idea that people in govt. are always committing suicide like they were drug addicted teens.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE