Is a hawk evil when it kills a rabbit? by chrisisall

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Is a hawk evil when it kills a rabbit?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 13:32
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VIEWED: 4448
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Friday, May 12, 2006 11:29 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"humans are self-directing, which means they can experience their ideas."

Is that, then, the critical dividing factor? The power of imagination?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, May 12, 2006 11:37 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"So I'm not sure I could say dogs know what it means to hurt something else, but that they just don't care."

Hmm... It might be my imagination (the tendency to personify things is strong in this one) but I've always felt that my dogs and cats, at various times, have understood when I was ill or wounded. I have perceived that they came to me in an attempt to comfort me.

This gave me the feeling (perhaps erroneously) that they could perceive discomfort and displeasure in others. I assumed they tried to comfort me because I was 'part of the pack' so to speak. I also assumed that prey and intruding animals were food, definitely not 'part of the pack' and thus their feelings about being rended, torn, or broken were irrelevant.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, May 12, 2006 11:45 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I think some animals have imagination or they wouldn't solve problems like how to get a seal off the middle of an ice floe (Orca) or a termite out of a mound (Pan sp) or a crab from behind a rock (Octopus sp).

I've heard (in extended discussion) that language can objectify experience and that may be why people can be self directing. Thats' why I don't want to say too much about cetaceans. They obviously have self awareness and language. And while they can understand us in a crude way, we can't understand them.

I also wanted to say there may be alien 'intelligences'. Octopuses, parrots, dolphins and whales may be beyond our understanding.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 12:02 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

We must have cross-posted. It's an interesting question and I'd like to discuss it at length, but I have a boatload of work to finish. I'll try and get back some time next week.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 12:24 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I've been wondering, what's wrong with taking what you want, as long as you don't end up in jail?
Isn't the Bush Administration doing what it can do? If you find a twenty dollar bill on the street, don't you take it? We breed and kill innocent animals for tasty meals, don't we. This is a dog-eat-dog world, and if it can be taken, you do, right? So what if people die in wars, they're gonna die someday anyway, right? Who are we to play God and say the Bush Administration shouldn't be doing...ANYTHING??

Heya, Chris!

*Sigh* The world right now is in a dark place, darkest place I've seen it in this life time. Think back to '99, man, were you thinking like this at all? Did you feel for five seconds the need to think like this back then?

'Course not, it's crazy talk. What makes it crazy? You're a spiritual being, Chris. This is poisonous materialistic reductionism, that's all.

Asking, thanking and saying we're sorry. That's what humans can do. Yay us! And since we can do these things, since we are the only species we know for sure can do these things, it's kinda our job as the asking, thanking, apologizing animal to do these things.

If we have a capacity to see the suffering in a seal cub, we shouldn't oughta make 'em suffer needlessly. If there is some real need to go ahead and make 'em suffer anyway, then we do like the Inuit do and ask permission and thank the animal for its sacrifice. This kinda behavior, though utterly silly and whimsical to the typical westernized mind, is healthy and gives you a sense of belonging and peace. It extends your life and is good for the species.

Evil is largely an "inside job." It's really a matter of awakening. If you know better, you need to do better. Your health, if nothing else, demands it. If ya don't know better--and I mean really don't--then, y'know, I hope someday you figure it out. ('Course I know you do Chris, I'm just talking in general.)

Quote:
If any of us were presidents, how do you know we wouldn't be doing exactly what Cheney suggested we do, too?

Christ would be the first one to say forgive Bush!

Forgiveness is, of course, the crowning achievement of human consciousness. Forgiving is what frees you to deal with the evil in your own self, and let other folks deal with theirs.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 4:29 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
That might be the function of language and being able to put together concepts that haven't been experienced together. Humans are neurologically flexible, experience moderates what you will be. And humans are self-directing, which means they can experience their ideas.

Dolphins and Apes have learnt rudimentary English, since they can't vocalise the sounds the interaction is pictorial based, but I believe Dolphins have shown communication abilities on the level of a toddler.

I'd also point out that Dolphins (common bottled nose I think) have rescued Humans from life threatening situations, so can obviously emphasis and probably 'get in the mind of' another species.

As far as Alien intelligence I don't think Dolphins are different enough. Looking into the eyes of a Dolphin I can get inflections from them, the same as most animals (though I can do it with snakes to a degree to, most people seem to be unable to read them, maybe I'm weird?) but octopuses and other cephalopods just seem completely alien.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 10:21 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I once had a beluga whale come upright out of the water about 10' (about 3m) from me and just stare at me for roughly 10 minutes. Then it turned its big head and stared at me with one eye for a few minutes. Then it turned its big head and stared at me with the other eye for a few minutes. Then it turned its big head and went back to staring at me with both eyes. It didn't stop till I left.

Two thoughts went through my head - it's irresistably big, and, I have no idea what it's thinking. What would cause it to pay such close attention?

I've also seen dolphins do some weird stuff for which I've found no explanation.

Dolphins 'get' mirrors. They can be 'trained' - in other words they understand us. As an experiment, there were two dolphins who were rewarded every time they did something different from what they did before, if they did it in tandem. They flawlessly execute complicated tandem rountines without practice. They obviously communicate with each other ahead of time to coordinate what they will do. They understand us. They understand each other. We just don't understand them. Which is the smarter species?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 11:56 PM

CITIZEN

We build cities, cars, travel into space, have jobs fight wars.

All they do is muck around in the Oceans and (you'll like this bit Anthony

) have fun.

It's them, obviously.

EDIT:

Quote:
Two thoughts went through my head - it's irresistably big, and, I have no idea what it's thinking. What would cause it to pay such close attention?

Curiosity?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 3:36 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

*Sigh* The world right now is in a dark place, darkest place I've seen it in this life time. Think back to '99, man, were you thinking like this at all? Did you feel for five seconds the need to think like this back then?

Back in the eighties and early ninties I had a job delivering and picking up tapes and computer componants in NY, and the two most interesting stops were the UN building, and the Twin Towers. Pretty low security, as Bond flicks go, I always felt like, "They hardly looked at my badge...".
After the first time the Trade Center got that car-bomb, security was tightened, and they really read my badge, and made me sign, etc. It was nice to see a little more security, but it gave me a hint where we were going- I knew something more was coming, and my wife dreamed about needing to live away from NY, near a lake. We moved to MA one week before 911, and when it happened, I foresaw most of what's going on now.
And like River said, it's going to get worse.

I grew up during the worst of the Vietnam War, looks like my son will be growing up during the worst of the Middle Eastern Conflict.

Nice to hear from ya, HK.
It can't be dark all the time.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 13, 2006 7:52 AM

KAIN

Is Jason evil for killin' teenagers who are doin' it in the woods?

Kain

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Tuesday, May 16, 2006 6:29 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Um cause if I WAS President, I would have been smart enough to NOT pick Cheney.

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. The most important pre-requisite in being the President is Honor,Integrity - we haven't had a lot of that. I don't mean does he cheat on his wife - I mean does he say what he means and stick to it. Does he take responsibility or pass the buck. If you are going to F8ck up - then at least embrace it - admit it - take responsibility, fix it and move on.

Bush is incapable of doing this. He has no honor. He has no integrity and therefore should get no respect.

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Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:39 AM

CHRISISALL

That's pretty much my view, I was just exploring other perspectives...

Balancing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:42 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kain:
Is Jason evil for killin' teenagers who are doin' it in the woods?

Yes. Because that's what the woods are for.
Ever been camping with your sweetie?
Oh, see, then you know.

Nature boy Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:43 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

thats because chrisISall!

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Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:53 AM

KAIN

You can't stop the signal and you can't stop JASON!!!!!!

Kain

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Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:54 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
thats because chrisISall!

Because I've done it in the woods?

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:58 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Well yeah

and because you have the same view.

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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:32 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Also, for the record: I'm not a huge fan of W. myself, but this whole "Bush is the anti-Christ" thing is just so ridiculous.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

lets see, actually Bush being the anti-Christ is not farfetched him and his whole family and this administration is pretty evil.

I'll say it loud and proud because its the truth, and when it comes to the truth I'm no yellow belly coward I will speak up!!! although I really could care two figs for Jesus Christ, although he was a man with a good message.

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